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Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by Guest on 15.06.13 14:11

@aiyoyo wrote:Can anyone tell me how to reply outside the quote box perimeter?


This new format is not user friendly.

aiyoyo, click on the last square in the list of icons at the top or reply box......'switch to editor mode'.......this will change the format and you get the [quote] in brackets at the end to type your post after. Hope that makes sense.
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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by jd on 15.06.13 14:14

@ShuBob wrote:I hope this news will bring Joana Morais out of hibernation. I'd like to hear the view from Portugal. A comment from Amaral will be very welcome too smilie

Isn't the final decision for the Amaral v mccann case on whether it goes to trial due within the next few weeks

Timing is everything!  big grin

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.06.13 14:16

@aquila wrote:It seems to me that it's not so much about Portugal refusing to re-open the case but more about SY being better placed to investigate.

REPLY: We don't actually know for certain whether or not the Portuguese Police have actually handed over to the SY Review Team the 20% or so of the thousands of documents that they have withheld. If the SY Review Team have got them, they've never said so.

What would be the case if they haven't? The SY Review Team would be without potentially vital information. Maybe the Portuguese Police are keeping it to themselves?



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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by ShuBob on 15.06.13 14:19

@jd wrote:
@ShuBob wrote:I hope this news will bring Joana Morais out of hibernation. I'd like to hear the view from Portugal. A comment from Amaral will be very welcome too smilie

Isn't the final decision for the Amaral v mccann case on whether it goes to trial due within the next few weeks

Timing is everything!  big grin

I no longer have any idea what's going on with that case i don\'t know . I do hope you are right though big grin

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by Dr What on 15.06.13 14:19

I am of the same opinion as Sallypelt.The lack of concrete evidence is a problem.If it had just been the McCanns involved, then I believe we would have seen a resolution to all this years ago.The fact that there is an 'independent' witness to a possible abduction, Jane Tanner, who has made an official statement, can not be dismissed when considering a legal course of action.The McCanns have a solid defence against any charge.Their holiday colleagues have not broken ranks, and show no sign of doing so.There is a kind of stalemate going on.

I'm sure, as with anyone who has read the police files, the SY team have a good idea who they really need to put under the microscope in that holiday group, but they must tread carefully.Most of us would just prefer that they get on with it.It is taking far too long. Perversely, the generosity of the public have ensured that the McCanns are protected by a strong legal team, well able to delay any proceedings.

I could well be wrong...and the McCanns appear on the next Queen's honours List! But until that happens, the Police tactic of keeping your enemy close, is understandable.

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by ShuBob on 15.06.13 14:23

@Dr What wrote:I am of the same opinion as Sallypelt.The lack of concrete evidence is a problem.If it had just been the McCanns involved, then I believe we would have seen a resolution to all this years ago.The fact that there is an 'independent' witness to a possible abduction, Jane Tanner, who has made an official statement, can not be dismissed when considering a legal course of action.The McCanns have a solid defence against any charge.Their holiday colleagues have not broken ranks, and show no sign of doing so.There is a kind of stalemate going on.

I'm sure, as with anyone who has read the police files, the SY team have a good idea who they really need to put under the microscope in that holiday group, but they must tread carefully.Most of us would just prefer that they get on with it.It is taking far too long. Perversely, the generosity of the public have ensured that the McCanns are protected by a strong legal team, well able to delay any proceedings.

I could well be wrong...and the McCanns appear on the next Queen's honours List! But until that happens, the Police tactic of keeping your enemy close, is understandable.

yes

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by sonic72 on 15.06.13 14:23

I can't believe they still haven't solved this case, what do they do with their time?! Are they really that incompetent?!

Chop, chop! Hissyfit

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by Guest on 15.06.13 14:24

Home Office to fund Met Police investigation into Madeleine McCann disappearance
The Home Office has given the green light to directly fund a full scale Metropolitan Police investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10122377/Home-Office-to-fund-Met-Police-investigation-into-Madeleine-McCann-disappearance.html


Interesting the Telegraph include this in their article, which has appeared recently and no mention like the other papers of parents being kept informed., ..........



It emerged last month that the review had identified more than 20 people "of interest", including Britons, who have not been eliminated from the case.

Detective Chief Superintendent Hamish Campbell, who supervised the Met’s review said there were a "good number" of individuals who should be questioned.

DCS Campbell said it was “perfectly probable” that information which could identify the suspect responsible for Madeleine’s disappearance was already within the Portuguese files.

He added: “We have to ask ourselves why are cases unsolved and, on many occasions, we find we passed the suspects by already and the suspect sits within our system.
"The purpose of the review was to look at the case with fresh eyes and there is always real benefit in doing so. The review has further identified both investigative and forensic opportunities to support the Portuguese


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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by jd on 15.06.13 14:29

@sonic72 wrote:I can't believe they still haven't solved this case, what do they do with their time?! Are they really that incompetent?!

Chop, chop! Hissyfit

They are not incompetent, they are trying to make a whitewash plausible explanation in the face of the facts that the whole world knows. Its been a step by step process, slowly over the past few months/year trying to put into our minds the thoughts of other paedos who could have taken her with media reports etc. Now they seem to be starting on the final road to implementing their real goal now that the foundation has been set up

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by Guest on 15.06.13 14:31

Portuguese Police need to make sure they keep copies of any info they hand over to British Police just in case it 'goes astray' or accidently gets shredded. winkwink
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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by jd on 15.06.13 14:31

[quote="candyfloss". The review has further identified both investigative and forensic opportunities to support the Portuguese[/i]

Will this be the unidentified DNA sample that pins it on someone like hewlett?

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by aquila on 15.06.13 14:34

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@aquila wrote:It seems to me that it's not so much about Portugal refusing to re-open the case but more about SY being better placed to investigate.

Tony Bennett "REPLY: We don't actually know for certain whether or not the Portuguese Police have actually handed over to the SY Review Team the 20% or so of the thousands of documents that they have withheld. If the SY Review Team have got them, they've never said so.

What would be the case if they haven't? The SY Review Team would be without potentially vital information. Maybe the Portuguese Police are keeping it to themselves?
"


REPLY
Perhaps they have, perhaps they haven't Tony. The review status has certainly been weird with spoutings of the McCanns being consulted and kept informed - so the Portuguese Police may have not disclosed all documents. In the light of SY actually carrying out a formal investigation one would think that there is no longer any consultation going on with the McCanns.

I'm not seeing this as a political hot potato. Both police services will have already agreed the terms on which they operate before the announcement imo.

I can only see a win-win situation between UK and Portugal if arrests are made and are pivotal to the initial work done by the Portuguese.




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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by Woofer on 15.06.13 14:42

@sonic72 wrote:I can't believe they still haven't solved this case, what do they do with their time?! Are they really that incompetent?!

Chop, chop! Hissyfit

I second that. As someone has said already, a child could have solved this case in a quarter of the time. And when we get statements from SY that they are keeping the prime suspects informed of progress, I think the whole of SY must have lost their brains. aaagh

Tony said, in another thread on this subject, that SY have been presented with many lines of enquiry and queries regarding the abduction story. And they have to follow these up. If they don`t, they could be in trouble for doing a Yates and purposely neglecting to follow up vital leads. One hopes, that if SY are not doing their job properly, they will be investigated themselves.

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by sonic72 on 15.06.13 14:46

I think everyone should bombard Scotland Yard with information about the case.

The phone calls the day before she went missing need a re-visit.

They need to look at Martin Grime's findings again, and all the inconsistencies in their stories.

If it's easy to prove there could not have been an abduction, then there's no reason why SY cannot work this out either. After all, it is their job, and they have all the resources available to them. Columbo would have cracked this case by now.

So yeah, I'm sure this has been done by others before, but I think people should send an email/letter to SY and remind them of the important facts that point to no abduction, and maddy dying in that apartment.

The general public consensus is they are guilty, how can the police not even see this themselves?

Maybe the penny might finally drop this time around.

First thing they need to do is arrest them all and interview them vigorously. Then this case needs to be put to bed, once and for all...

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by Woofer on 15.06.13 14:47

@ShuBob wrote:I hope this news will bring Joana Morais out of hibernation. I'd like to hear the view from Portugal. A comment from Amaral will be very welcome too smilie

I keep going to Joana`s site but either she`s indisposed at the moment, has lost interest in the case or has been scared off. Does anyone have any contact with Joana? She was the only one that seemed to get news from the Amaral and the Portuguese authorities.


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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by jd on 15.06.13 14:49

Scotland Yard is launching a full investigation into the British girl's disappearance following a two-year review.

....It revealed last month that detectives have identified a number of "people of interest" they wanted to speak to about the disappearance.

Known paedophiles, holidaymakers and staff working at the resort are thought to be among the dozen suspects identified.

http://news.sky.com/story/1104068/madeleine-mccann-home-office-funds-inquiry

This is what I think is the real agenda going on & we have prepped for

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by loopzdaloop on 15.06.13 14:49

@jd wrote:
[quote="candyfloss". The review has further identified both investigative and forensic opportunities to support the Portuguese[/i]

Will this be the unidentified DNA sample that pins it on someone like hewlett? 

I wonder if it will be something more along the following lines....



http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t12417-more-about-dna-from-an-expert

The first drawback led to obtaining profile incomplete, partially wrong and not reproducible. This little reliability goes against the spirit as advocated notably by the ISO 17025 standards in force in our country.
The second requires necessarily work in special conditions to avoid contamination inherent in the environmental conditions and in particular from human DNA present in the dust of the atmosphere or on the surfaces of objects. Seen the limitations of this technique, the conclusions could be easily attacked and cancelled during a trial. This technique is not used routinely in DNA laboratories in Belgium.

AEK: If on an analysis of DNA, 15 markers out of 19 belong to a person "x", can we conclude that this is this person?
SA: If the profile is complete and quality, and that the markers are analyzed information then no doubt! The result is discriminatory. This result is very reliable. The order of error is 1 for 1 billion! It is almost impossible it otherwise. For a conclusive DNA profile, it takes a minimum of 7 markers. In case you are presenting, 15 markers on 19 leave no doubt. This result is quite reliable and usable in court. The error rate for a one billion is so unlikely that the result is recognized by judges without lawyers can not bring them into doubt.

We open a parenthesis. We understand even better the attitude of the PJ. In the face of inconsistencies we are talking about earlier, the police have doubts. Can dogs detect traces of blood and the smell of a corpse. The doubts turn into belief. But it lacks something. All these elements are not sufficient to face charges in a court. It lacks a confirmation. A scientific confirmation. This confirmation comes with the first analysis report which said that 15 DNA markers on 19 belong to Madeleine. It does not need more police. The proof is there. Self-explanatory. The first report analyses prove the guilt of parents in the eyes of investigators. This report should be considered as a proof by, I believe, all police forces. Once parents have been placed, logically, in the particular status "arguidos." Of course, an error rate of 1 to 1 billion is not a profile of 100%, it Clarence Mitchell rightly so. Where, then, there is a huge surprise. A second report by the FSS comes and totally contradicts the first. Distroying evidence that the police have thought. According to the report, the samples have been contaminated finally making them very unreliable. Several DNA have been mixed to create the DNA of anyone!


3) If the forensic technicians were able to extract 15 markers from the material in the Scenic that were a match for the known sample of Madeleine's DNA and the other four markers could not be tested because they were degraded, there would be a high probability mathematically that the questioned sample of DNA came from Madeleine.

Just to give you an example, at the time the forensic examiner in Arizona found the 9:13 match on DNA markers, the FBI said that the chances of that happening would be 1 in 113 billion. Well, that obviously isn't right, because there WAS, in fact, a 9:13 match, and there are nowhere near 113 billion people in the world. There is something called the "prosecutor's fallacy," which is an example of mathematical analysis called "binary classification" which shows that even 10:10 or 13:13 DNA matches are subject to error rates much higher than prosecutors sometimes attribute to them. However, whilst saying that the chance of an incorrect finding is 1 in 113 billion is clearly ridiculous, my opinion would be that the chance of two DNA samples belonging to different people if the results of the forensic analysis shows a 15:19 match would be miniscule - at least 1 out of hundreds of thousands, if not millions. It would not, however, be a smoking gun. Any DNA scientist will tell you that DNA is only one piece of the puzzle in any case and should be viewed in the context of all the other evidence. However, if FSS got a 15:19 match between Madeleine's known DNA and the questioned sample from the hire car, and 4 other markers were too degraded to be tested, in my opinion, that would be a powerful piece of circumstantial evidence.


If Scotland Yard now have control of the criminal investigation as opposed to Portugal, the standard of 'proof' changes!

In Portugal you may need 19 markers as the judicial standard, yet in the USA its 13, but to be conclusive you only need 5.
The dna found matched Maddie to 15 markers.... where the USA goes... we generally follow!
SY should be able to say legally within this country that the DNA in the scenic was from Maddie!
In which case... how did it get there...
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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by Guest on 15.06.13 14:56

SY have also had info on the phone records, crèche records and HideHo's videos - I would have thought it would not be easy to ignore all of that along with the dogs findings.
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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by Peneda Geres on 15.06.13 14:57

@loopzdaloop wrote:
@jd wrote:
[quote="candyfloss". The review has further identified both investigative and forensic opportunities to support the Portuguese[/i]

Will this be the unidentified DNA sample that pins it on someone like hewlett? 

I wonder if it will be something more along the following lines....



http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t12417-more-about-dna-from-an-expert

The first drawback led to obtaining profile incomplete, partially wrong and not reproducible. This little reliability goes against the spirit as advocated notably by the ISO 17025 standards in force in our country.
The second requires necessarily work in special conditions to avoid contamination inherent in the environmental conditions and in particular from human DNA present in the dust of the atmosphere or on the surfaces of objects. Seen the limitations of this technique, the conclusions could be easily attacked and cancelled during a trial. This technique is not used routinely in DNA laboratories in Belgium.

AEK: If on an analysis of DNA, 15 markers out of 19 belong to a person "x", can we conclude that this is this person?
SA: If the profile is complete and quality, and that the markers are analyzed information then no doubt! The result is discriminatory. This result is very reliable. The order of error is 1 for 1 billion! It is almost impossible it otherwise. For a conclusive DNA profile, it takes a minimum of 7 markers. In case you are presenting, 15 markers on 19 leave no doubt. This result is quite reliable and usable in court. The error rate for a one billion is so unlikely that the result is recognized by judges without lawyers can not bring them into doubt.

We open a parenthesis. We understand even better the attitude of the PJ. In the face of inconsistencies we are talking about earlier, the police have doubts. Can dogs detect traces of blood and the smell of a corpse. The doubts turn into belief. But it lacks something. All these elements are not sufficient to face charges in a court. It lacks a confirmation. A scientific confirmation. This confirmation comes with the first analysis report which said that 15 DNA markers on 19 belong to Madeleine. It does not need more police. The proof is there. Self-explanatory. The first report analyses prove the guilt of parents in the eyes of investigators. This report should be considered as a proof by, I believe, all police forces. Once parents have been placed, logically, in the particular status "arguidos." Of course, an error rate of 1 to 1 billion is not a profile of 100%, it Clarence Mitchell rightly so. Where, then, there is a huge surprise. A second report by the FSS comes and totally contradicts the first. Distroying evidence that the police have thought. According to the report, the samples have been contaminated finally making them very unreliable. Several DNA have been mixed to create the DNA of anyone!


3) If the forensic technicians were able to extract 15 markers from the material in the Scenic that were a match for the known sample of Madeleine's DNA and the other four markers could not be tested because they were degraded, there would be a high probability mathematically that the questioned sample of DNA came from Madeleine.

Just to give you an example, at the time the forensic examiner in Arizona found the 9:13 match on DNA markers, the FBI said that the chances of that happening would be 1 in 113 billion. Well, that obviously isn't right, because there WAS, in fact, a 9:13 match, and there are nowhere near 113 billion people in the world. There is something called the "prosecutor's fallacy," which is an example of mathematical analysis called "binary classification" which shows that even 10:10 or 13:13 DNA matches are subject to error rates much higher than prosecutors sometimes attribute to them. However, whilst saying that the chance of an incorrect finding is 1 in 113 billion is clearly ridiculous, my opinion would be that the chance of two DNA samples belonging to different people if the results of the forensic analysis shows a 15:19 match would be miniscule - at least 1 out of hundreds of thousands, if not millions. It would not, however, be a smoking gun. Any DNA scientist will tell you that DNA is only one piece of the puzzle in any case and should be viewed in the context of all the other evidence. However, if FSS got a 15:19 match between Madeleine's known DNA and the questioned sample from the hire car, and 4 other markers were too degraded to be tested, in my opinion, that would be a powerful piece of circumstantial evidence.


If Scotland Yard now have control of the criminal investigation as opposed to Portugal, the standard of 'proof' changes!

In Portugal you may need 19 markers as the judicial standard, yet in the USA its 13, but to be conclusive you only need 5.
The dna found matched Maddie to 15 markers.... where the USA goes... we generally follow!
SY should be able to say legally within this country that the DNA in the scenic was from Maddie!
In which case... how did it get there...

There will be no need to find a body now either.
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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by Woofer on 15.06.13 15:03

"If Scotland Yard now have control of the criminal investigation as opposed to Portugal, the standard of 'proof' changes!

In Portugal you may need 19 markers as the judicial standard, yet in the USA its 13, but to be conclusive you only need 5.
The dna found matched Maddie to 15 markers.... where the USA goes... we generally follow!
SY should be able to say legally within this country that the DNA in the scenic was from Maddie!
In which case... how did it get there... "

You`ve cheered me up no end Loopzdaloop !.
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You don`t need concrete evidence for a conviction

Post by Woofer on 15.06.13 15:06

From Wiki :-

Validity of circumstantial evidence[edit]A popular misconception is that circumstantial evidence is less valid or less important than direct evidence.[citation needed] This is only partly true: direct evidence is popularly, but mistakenly, considered more powerful. Many successful criminal prosecutions rely largely or entirely on circumstantial evidence, and civil charges are frequently based on circumstantial or indirect evidence. Much of the evidence against convicted American bomber Timothy McVeigh was circumstantial, for example. Speaking about McVeigh's trial, University of Michigan law professor Robert Precht said, "Circumstantial evidence can be, and often is much more powerful than direct evidence". [2] The 2004 murder trial of Scott Peterson was another high-profile conviction based heavily on circumstantial evidence.

Indeed, the common metaphor for the strongest possible evidence in any case—the "smoking gun"—is an example of proof based on circumstantial evidence. Similarly, fingerprint evidence, videotapes, sound recordings, photographs, and many other examples of physical evidence that support the drawing of an inference, i.e., circumstantial evidence, are considered very strong possible evidence.

In practice, circumstantial evidence can have an advantage over direct evidence in that it can come from multiple sources that check and reinforce each other.[3] Eyewitness testimony can be inaccurate at times,[4] and many persons have been convicted on the basis of perjured or otherwise mistaken testimony.[5] Thus strong circumstantial evidence can be a more reliable basis on which to determine a verdict. Circumstantial evidence normally requires a witness, such as the police officer who found the evidence, or an expert who examined it, to lay the foundation for its admission. This witness, sometimes known as the sponsor or the authenticating witness, is giving direct (eye-witness) testimony, and could present credibility problems in the same way that any eye witness does.

However, there is sometimes more than one logical conclusion inferable from the same set of circumstances. In cases where one conclusion implies a defendant's guilt and another his innocence, the "benefit of the doubt" principle would apply. Indeed, if the circumstantial evidence suggests a possibility of innocence, the prosecution has the burden of disproving that possibility.

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by aquila on 15.06.13 15:14

Snipped from todays' Telegraph

'DCS Campbell said it was “perfectly probable” that information which could identify the suspect responsible for Madeleine’s disappearance was already within the Portuguese files.
He added: “We have to ask ourselves why are cases unsolved and, on many occasions, we find we passed the suspects by already and the suspect sits within our system.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10122377/Home-Office-to-fund-Met-Police-investigation-into-Madeleine-McCann-disappearance.html
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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by sonic72 on 15.06.13 15:19

@aiyoyo wrote:Can anyone tell me how to reply outside the quote box perimeter?


This new format is not user

Just Switch to 'Editor Mode'

Editor Mode is the 4th icon to the right of the smiley face.

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by tigger on 15.06.13 15:22

@jd wrote:
@sonic72 wrote:I can't believe they still haven't solved this case, what do they do with their time?! Are they really that incompetent?!

Chop, chop! Hissyfit

They are not incompetent, they are trying to make a whitewash plausible explanation in the face of the facts that the whole world knows. Its been a step by step process, slowly over the past few months/year trying to put into our minds the thoughts of other paedos who could have taken her with media reports etc. Now they seem to be starting on the final road to implementing their real goal now that the foundation has been set up

That's what' I think, but I SO want to be wrong!!

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Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Post by lj on 15.06.13 15:27

So if in those months the case was shambolic? What about the 2 years THEY THEMSELVES are taking?
I think they're trying to explain why £5m has been spent, lets blame the Portuguese! 

It has always been about blaming the Portuguese.

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http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/
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