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Why no body after all this time?

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by truthfultiger on 18.01.14 14:59

Aquila, I can personally confirm that being ginger only serves to improve your life! :-)

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by Mirage on 18.01.14 15:02

tigger wrote:  what if Maddie had 'disappeared' in Scotland - would we be here?
---------------------------
I somehow don't think we would be here, tigger, if the McCanns and T7 had been investigated by the Scottish police, going on the professionalism evident so far. I am seriously impressed. Compare and contrast with the shambolic Operation Grinding-Gears: the investigating officer trying to look inscrutable while allowing the McCanns to muddy the waters with an eliminated suspect. Is AR really expecting that to cut the mustard?

The search groups in Scotland went off to their appointed areas without fuss or razamatazz. The police quietly got on with following the obvious clues and checking out the wider family. They started in the family home and focussed on the shaky account given by the mother. They checked the nursery attendance!! They worked quietly, efficiently and with a professionalism worthy of respect,  Hats off to them and the ACC who spoke so movingly this morning - a proper policeman, whose humanity and integrity shine out, like that of ACC Cotterill in the Philpott case.

Compare that with the guff on CW about taking everything back to point zero, only to declare the people caught in the search beam of point zero in the clear. We must assume SY immediately dismissed the screaming discrepancies of T9 and turned their attention to unlikely suspects, including three burglars who - if we are to believe the rumours, AND I do -  the PJ are not buying.

The fact MM's disappearance is now a cold case is no excuse. It is a testimony to unprecedented interference in the Portuguese investigation by the UK. The PJ files and GA's book show clearly why this never needed to be a cold case. It should have been solved long ago and all that carp from the T9 was about to be blown apart when Goncalo was unceremoniously removed. And on whose orders did all this occur? Finding that out will be an investigation to eclipse all investigations. But it's the only route to go: that is, if Hogan-Howe is halfway serious about rekindling public trust. High or low, Cameron said; we are all equal before the law. A statement that merits serious reflection by politicians and police if this demeaning circus is to cease making SY a global laughing stock. 

Personally speaking, I wasn't convinced one iota by Hogan-Howe's demeanour during his Sky apologia: the shame of Plebgate, and his part in it, did not weigh heavily on his soul as far as I could discern. He cut a figure not remotely in the same league as the aforementioned ACCs.

All IMO, as usual.

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by aquila on 18.01.14 15:06

@truthfultiger wrote:Aquila, I can personally confirm that being ginger only serves to improve your life!  :-)
Well as the daughter of a ginger man (gorgeous carrot top), the sister of a redhead (beautiful dark red hair) and the mother of a titian son (amazing strawberry red) I'm curious as to why ultimaThule thinks that GM McCann would have a problem with being red headed (if indeed he is) and also why it is possibly bandied as an insult.

I will issue a warning too....our favourite PeterMac is also a redhead.

I love red hair. I love the skin that goes with it too. I'm not a redhead.
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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by Guest on 18.01.14 15:08


Not sure where to post this, but..
Does anybody know if the crucifix on the picture of Maddie on the dresser in the vista mar villa is a masonic (templar) cross?
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html#aug9
(about midway down a still in the new videos section; nb apparently this video has been wooshed due to legal complaint!)
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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by Guest on 18.01.14 15:14

Aquila, for some reason there are as many jokes about redheads as there are blondes - usually along the lines of both being dim.

You'll see what I mean if you google redhead jokes.

You just have to watch out for Cockney rhyming slang - ginger (beer) = queer.........and not in the way my mother would have used the word, to mean ill.

I've slapped my own hand for going off topic!
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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by Mirage on 18.01.14 15:15

@aquila wrote:
@truthfultiger wrote:Aquila, I can personally confirm that being ginger only serves to improve your life!  :-)
Well as the daughter of a ginger man (gorgeous carrot top), the sister of a redhead (beautiful dark red hair) and the mother of a titian son (amazing strawberry red) I'm curious as to why ultimaThule thinks that GM McCann would have a problem with being red headed (if indeed he is) and also why it is possibly bandied as an insult.

I will issue a warning too....our favourite PeterMac is also a redhead.

I love red hair. I love the skin that goes with it too. I'm not a redhead.
I have red hair (auburn). Daughter No 1 is strawberry blonde, Daughter NO 2 had titian hair as a child, but is deep auburn now. Granddaughter and grandson strawberry blonde also. Three aunts auburn and one strawberry blonde. Father auburn. You can't keep a good gene down!!

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by aquila on 18.01.14 15:19

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Aquila, for some reason there are as many jokes about redheads as there are blondes - usually along the lines of both being dim.

You'll see what I mean if you google redhead jokes.

You just have to watch out for Cockney rhyming slang - ginger (beer) = queer.........and not in the way my mother would have used the word, to mean ill.

I've slapped my own hand for going off topic!
ultimaThule wasn't joking about GM. I'm fascinated as to know why the ginger remark is made specifically to GM...wee ginger laddie, wee ginger something or other from Glasgae...
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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by aiyoyo on 18.01.14 15:20

@tigger wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
@Woofer wrote:
@Nina wrote:A long time to go without a car when so many family members were visiting. How did they get from the airport, were we ever told? I know much was made of picking up visitors or returning them to the airport once they had the car, so what happened before for such journeys.

Good point.

Unless Mark Warner provided transport ?  But there were rather a lot of friends and family arriving weren`t there.
***
I haven't seen anything about that [yet], but it wouldn't surprise me if MW indeed freely provided accommodation [as well as creche facilities  - food & drink?]  ánd transportation, but  after nearly 4 weeks subtly started suggesting that maybe TM should organise themselves independently ...

They had friends - remember Priest Hubbard and Kate's best mate Susan Hubbard ?

Susan Hubbard seems besotted with Kate that she followed Kate everywhere, even travelling to Rothley to babysit the twins.

Talking about SH, can anyone remember whether she was on of the witnesses at the Libel trial ?

The Camerons had friends who lent them a car. The Paynes had friends who got them new phones.
Geraghty organised the key to the church for them, they were up to their necks in lawyers and PR.

Yes, poor babes in the woods....

You have to wonder what the PA was thinking when he concluded the Mccanns did not have friends, did not know the terrain hence ...
They did have friends or friends of friends who came to their aid.
They were manipulating the Police and controlling Press and Media from PDL all the while.
Personally I believe the reason they stayed on in PDL was because they'd unfinished business.
Maddie had to be moved from initial at-risk-of being found initial hiding place to a safer final resting place - they needed time to suss out a site and get the task done.
They didn't reckon for the hugh media interest surrounding them in PDL and were somewhat impeded but they completed their task in the finished.
I never believe they intended to stay in PDL indefinitely as they claimed. It suited their convenient at that time not to return to face the media frenzy or to risk media descending and camping on their doorstep in Rothley. Of course we know they fled home the moment their stance became untenable when they were made arguidos.

Had Madeleine disappearance happened in UK, they would be languishing in jail instead of collecting Fund.

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by tigger on 18.01.14 15:41

@aquila wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Aquila, for some reason there are as many jokes about redheads as there are blondes - usually along the lines of both being dim.

You'll see what I mean if you google redhead jokes.

You just have to watch out for Cockney rhyming slang - ginger (beer) = queer.........and not in the way my mother would have used the word, to mean ill.

I've slapped my own hand for going off topic!
ultimaThule wasn't joking about GM. I'm fascinated as to know why the ginger remark is made specifically to GM...wee ginger laddie, wee ginger something or other from Glasgae...

Well OT now just to say: the point about the wee ginger laddie is that he must have been hiding his red genes under Grecian 2000 or whatever from a fairly early age. So why?

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by mysterion on 18.01.14 16:55

Some people do things that are wrong and deny all responsibility and lie and lie partly out of a panic and fearing the consequences. This is understandable because self preservation kicks in. What is wrong is not admitting the lie once the panic subsides and have time to reflect on the possible consequences of continuing the lie. If, however, powerful forces  apply a comfort blanket around you then you might feel that there will not be consequences and you can carry on and even exploit the situation to advantage. Perhaps the real villains are the suppliers of the comfort blanket.

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by Guest on 18.01.14 17:00

@aiyoyo wrote:

Personally I believe the reason they stayed on in PDL was because they'd unfinished business.
Maddie had to be moved from initial at-risk-of being found initial hiding place to a safer final resting place - they needed time to suss out a site and get the task done.
They didn't reckon for the hugh media interest surrounding them in PDL and were somewhat impeded  but they completed their task in the finished.


Completely agree. Everything done for a reason.
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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by Lance De Boils on 18.01.14 17:09

Why no body?


IF Madeleine is deceased and her death/removal was carried out by/with the knowledge of the parents:

I feel sure there will be no body to find. They will not have done the 'usual' shallow grave not too far away, or have left the body somewhere it could one day be found. 

The McCann couple are very cocky. They see themselves as intellectually far superior to others. They would probably tell themselves that because nobody SAW what happened, nobody can ever KNOW what happened. Not for sure. Not without a body.  All the time there's no body, no other definite, undisputable forensic evidence and providing they stick to their story, people can only speculate and they can continue to deny. There is no way they would risk a body EVER being found.

If, therefore, they had anything to do with the removal of their daughter's body, it will have been placed somewhere unfindable, or cremated/destroyed. And certainly not somewhere it could accidentally become exposed in time. Unfindable could include burial, but in a place nobody would even consider digging, or somewhere so vast that there's no chance. (Poor little Keith Bennett springs to mind.)

IF Madeleine is still alive

Then, of course there will be no body. Moreover, what are the chances of someone finding an alive Maddie, when everyone's been told to look out for a generic blonde girl with a very distinctive eye defect, but in reality she had no such distinguishing feature? (Just a fleck you could only see if looking closely.) People could have seen Maddie all over the place, but would never have known it was her due to the LACK of eye defect.
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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by Monty Heck on 18.01.14 17:27

@mysterion wrote:Some people do things that are wrong and deny all responsibility and lie and lie partly out of a panic and fearing the consequences. This is understandable because self preservation kicks in. What is wrong is not admitting the lie once the panic subsides and have time to reflect on the possible consequences of continuing the lie. If, however, powerful forces  apply a comfort blanket around you then you might feel that there will not be consequences and you can carry on and even exploit the situation to advantage. Perhaps the real villains are the suppliers of the comfort blanket.

It would seem this is what happened in this instance.  The issue of the iconic child picture was a PR masterstroke whether intended as such or simply serendipitous and the result was a media which fawned on the parents, rather than censuring their actions.  The fact of there being so many medics in "difficulty" is what, IMO, prompted the swift and high level consular assistance.  Any whiff of scandal or wrongdoing on the part of the group had to be scotched before it took hold and so the PR onslaught was born.  As the media clamour in support of the parents gained pace, celebs and politicians leapt on the bandwagon and in no time a comfort blanket of support and money was inextricably woven.  What are the chances the suppliers of that blanket would view themselves as villains, if indeed they ever think about it?

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by tigger on 18.01.14 17:49

Dee Coy wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:

Personally I believe the reason they stayed on in PDL was because they'd unfinished business.
Maddie had to be moved from initial at-risk-of being found initial hiding place to a safer final resting place - they needed time to suss out a site and get the task done.
They didn't reckon for the hugh media interest surrounding them in PDL and were somewhat impeded  but they completed their task in the finished.


Completely agree. Everything done for a reason.

I think they wanted to stay in Portugal indefinitely.
In June Gerry was asked how much longer they would stay and Gerry said that the twins weren't due to start school for anothe two years. Iirc he actually said 'the kids aren't etc. which rather leaves out Maddie.

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by ultimaThule on 18.01.14 18:42

I agree, tigger, which brings us back to the question I posed in an earlier response to one of your posts on this thread: 

ultimaThule wrote:
tigger wrote:Sami wrote:

If you want to see real pain, I suggest watching the footage of the Assistant Chief Constable in Scotland on Sky this morning, making the announcement of having found the little missing boy.  That man is clearly heartbroken, it is upsetting to watch him.  He has shown more emotion in a 30 second clip that either of the McCanns have in all these years.

Unquote

I agree, I only saw a photograph of this police officer. Nothing fake or politically correct ( unlike the pink ribbon festooned force in Wales). He grieves for the child.

Eta: what if Maddie had 'disappeared' in Scotland - would we be here?

IMO had this crime occurred anywhere in the UK there would be no need for this forum as the McCanns would have been charged and tried long ago and one, or both, of them could be due for release on licence sometime before this century is out of its teens.  

Given that the wee ginger laddie makes up for his intellectual inadequacies by using cunning and guile to achieve his ends, this raises the question of whether he cynically chose for his eldest daughter to 'disappear' in Portugal because he knew the odds of getting away with it would be improved in a country where the police would be disadvantaged by dealing with suspects with whom they did not share a common language and where he, and his spouse, could rely on the xenophobia of the UK's msm to further muddy the waters?
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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by tigger on 18.01.14 19:17

dantezebu wrote:
Not sure where to post this, but..
Does anybody know if the crucifix on the picture of Maddie on the dresser in the vista mar villa is a masonic (templar) cross?
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html#aug9
(about midway down a still in the new videos section; nb apparently this video has been wooshed due to legal complaint!)

I don't think so, the lower part should be longer even if allowing for foreshortening.

But the widening shape of the cross is very reminiscent of the Maltese cross. Which would be templar if the longitudinal and transverse part are the same length.

So you may be right if the foreshortening is very acute.

There were quite a few sightings in Malta in the early days.

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by Guest on 18.01.14 19:19

@ultimaThule wrote:I agree, tigger, which brings us back to the question I posed in an earlier response to one of your posts on this thread: 

ultimaThule wrote:
tigger wrote:Sami wrote:

If you want to see real pain, I suggest watching the footage of the Assistant Chief Constable in Scotland on Sky this morning, making the announcement of having found the little missing boy.  That man is clearly heartbroken, it is upsetting to watch him.  He has shown more emotion in a 30 second clip that either of the McCanns have in all these years.

Unquote

I agree, I only saw a photograph of this police officer. Nothing fake or politically correct ( unlike the pink ribbon festooned force in Wales). He grieves for the child.

Eta: what if Maddie had 'disappeared' in Scotland - would we be here?

IMO had this crime occurred anywhere in the UK there would be no need for this forum as the McCanns would have been charged and tried long ago and one, or both, of them could be due for release on licence sometime before this century is out of its teens.  

Given that the wee ginger laddie makes up for his intellectual inadequacies by using cunning and guile to achieve his ends, this raises the question of whether he cynically chose for his eldest daughter to 'disappear' in Portugal because he knew the odds of getting away with it would be improved in a country where the police would be disadvantaged by dealing with suspects with whom they did not share a common language and where he, and his spouse, could rely on the xenophobia of the UK's msm to further muddy the waters?

That is a question many of us have asked ourselves many times, I'm sure

But that would imply premeditation, and maybe, just maybe: murder instead of 'mere' neglect, wouldn't it just?
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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by ultimaThule on 18.01.14 20:55

Having given this case consideration for a very long time, in the absence of admission on the part of the perpetrator(s) I can't see how the most serious charge can be anything less than murder. 

While this does not address the question of whether any premeditation took place over a period of time prior to April 28 2007, the speed with which certain actions were taken following the child's disappearance suggests this is an area which should be fully explored by the investigating officers of both nations.
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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by marconi on 19.01.14 5:01

@ultimaThule wrote:Having given this case consideration for a very long time, in the absence of admission on the part of the perpetrator(s) I can't see how the most serious charge can be anything less than murder. 

While this does not address the question of whether any premeditation took place over a period of time prior to April 28 2007, the speed with which certain actions were taken following the child's disappearance suggests this is an area which should be fully explored by the investigating officers of both nations.

ultima, that is what I wonder too. Her disappearance was too efficient, no one of the Tapas knew Portugal, they had no car at their disposition, but it is difficult to prove.
You can see the difference between Mikaeel's mother and the McCanns : she lived in the area, she knew it well, she probably had more time to think about getting rid of the body and to make up a better story and the police caught her already. Perhaps she was all alone planing everything and emotions betraded her at the police's presence. We don't know. It is possible that it was an accidental death.

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by suep on 19.01.14 7:12

dantezebu wrote:
Not sure where to post this, but..
Does anybody know if the crucifix on the picture of Maddie on the dresser in the vista mar villa is a masonic (templar) cross?
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html#aug9
(about midway down a still in the new videos section; nb apparently this video has been wooshed due to legal complaint!)

This might help, dantezebu. I posted about that cross a few weeks ago on another thread after doing a bit of research.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6624p200-if-there-is-one-last-photo#214828

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by Guest on 19.01.14 7:45

@suep wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
Not sure where to post this, but..
Does anybody know if the crucifix on the picture of Maddie on the dresser in the vista mar villa is a masonic (templar) cross?
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html#aug9
(about midway down a still in the new videos section; nb apparently this video has been wooshed due to legal complaint!)

This might help, dantezebu. I posted about that cross a few weeks ago on another thread after doing a bit of research.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6624p200-if-there-is-one-last-photo#214828

Thank you suep. I remember reading the discussion but could not find it anywhere yesterday.
What are your thoughts? I realise the traditional templar/masonic cross has equal horizontal and vertical arms but I have seen them elongated too.
It was the decoration on this cross and the raised bit in the middle that caught my eye.
Traditional  Roman Catholic crucifixes should not really be embelished, at the most with a figure of Christ.And a lot of the templar crosses have a rose in the centre, which may be the raised bit.
But one thing they seem to have in common is the shape of the arms.
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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by suep on 19.01.14 8:14

dantezebu wrote:
@suep wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
Not sure where to post this, but..
Does anybody know if the crucifix on the picture of Maddie on the dresser in the vista mar villa is a masonic (templar) cross?
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html#aug9
(about midway down a still in the new videos section; nb apparently this video has been wooshed due to legal complaint!)

This might help, dantezebu. I posted about that cross a few weeks ago on another thread after doing a bit of research.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6624p200-if-there-is-one-last-photo#214828

Thank you suep. I remember reading the discussion but could not find it anywhere yesterday.
What are your thoughts? I realise the traditional templar/masonic cross has equal horizontal and vertical arms but I have seen them elongated too.
It was the decoration on this cross and the raised bit in the middle that caught my eye.
Traditional  Roman Catholic crucifixes should not really be embelished, at the most with a figure of Christ.And a lot of the templar crosses have a rose in the centre, which may be the raised bit.
But one thing they seem to have in common is the shape of the arms.

According to Wikipedia the Knights Templar were associated with Malta and "the full title of this Order is The United Religious, Military and Masonic Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes and Malta". So the Maltese cross is, as you thought, the Templar cross and the Templars were affiliated to Freemasonry.

Another website here http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception-Pope_Malta_Queen says the Templars were also known as the Pope's Knights and points out that "Templar Knights were given the ability to ignore many laws, taxes, and authorities, but had to obey the Pope"

Interesting...wonder where the McCanns got that cross...in Rome, perhaps, when visiting the Pope?.

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by suep on 19.01.14 8:44

Just found something even more interesting re the maltese cross from the same website as above,

"It is important to remember, however, that the Maltese cross, the way we are used to seeing it, was firmly established as the Knights Hospitaller symbol only in the 16th century, although prior use of similar crosses is well documented...Known as Hospitallers of Jerusalem until 1309, the members were called Knights of Rhodes from 1309 till 1522, and have been called Knights of Malta since 1530"

and from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07477a.htm

"The origins of the order have given rise to learned discussions, to fictitious legends and hazardous conjectures. The unquestionable founder was one Gerald or Gerard, whose birthplace and family name it has been vainly sought to ascertain. On the other hand, his title as founder is attested by a contemporary official document, the Bull of Paschal II, dated 1113, addressed to "Geraudo institutori ac praeposito Hirosolimitani Xenodochii"."

What a strange coincidence!

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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by Guest on 19.01.14 8:46

Snipped from sueps post:
"Interesting...wonder where the McCanns got that cross...in Rome, perhaps, when visiting the Pope?."

I am useless at c&p photographs but I thought that they may have got it from the organisation that sent this bouquet:
http://steelmagnolia-steelmagnolia.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/gordon-brown-madeleine-mccann-and-mason.html

While celebrities and politicians may have distanced themselves from the MCs, this is one organisation that would never.



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Re: Why no body after all this time?

Post by suep on 19.01.14 9:13

I haven't seen that photo of the flowers from the Freemasons before, dantezebu. Very interesting. Its possible, if Gerry is a mason, that the other men in his family are also masons and its not hard to imagine that he married into a family of masons either. This would explain why the whole combined family seem to be on board.

Going back to the subject of Malta, it seems Gerry's brother has a holiday home there and there were a lot of sightings in Malta as I remember. Did the McCs ever go there in response to any of these sightings or for some other reason do you know?

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