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The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Nina on 20.05.13 21:24

Châtelaine wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:Or a painless, professionally applied injection?
I don't think there was any paraphernalia discovered. If there had been, it could have been blamed on the 'abductor'.
But strangely GM was seen wearing latex gloves later in the piece, when loading pamphlets into the car for the trip to Huelva. Very odd.
***
Despite all of the haymay, if any, it would have been only seconds to get rid of that.
Intramuscular or introvascular injection is quick and reliable. As opposed to something to digest ... risk of vomiting ... not effectively / quickly enough ...

A propos the latex gloves / the car to Huelva: I'm convinced it is a play of light. Only high definition[ which it was not] would have given a clear picture. I've looked at it many times and I think it's just a [coloured] shadow.

Sometimes medication is given to babies and younger children per rectum, and thus the use of surgical gloves. The drug is quickly taken into the body via this route and if long term used at nappy changes becomes part of the child's life so not screamed at as an injection could be.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Guest on 20.05.13 22:36

@sami wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:@ Sami

With all due respect: I've been watching since 2007 each and every video on a state-of-the-art iMac. And, having quite some experience in audio & visual, have so far not detected a glove. However, I wouldn't mind to be proven wrong, as it would be some indication of something "wrong" ...

If someone can give me a quick reference to the subject video, I am more than willing to have a look at it again. Thanks in advance.



I used the link on the previous page of this thread.
***
That's a compilation. I would need more footage [from the original footage] to be sure ...
Too late now for me to start looking for it, but it's on my "agenda".
Good night :-)
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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Guest on 20.05.13 22:40

@Nina wrote:[...]

Sometimes medication is given to babies and younger children per rectum, and thus the use of surgical gloves. The drug is quickly taken into the body via this route and if long term used at nappy changes becomes part of the child's life so not screamed at as an injection could be.
***
Bonsoir Nina.
And not only babies ...
I agree that a suppository would be easily applied and accepted, especially if used to it. That or injection is more likely than pills IMO ...
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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Nina on 20.05.13 23:28

Châtelaine wrote:
@Nina wrote:[...]

Sometimes medication is given to babies and younger children per rectum, and thus the use of surgical gloves. The drug is quickly taken into the body via this route and if long term used at nappy changes becomes part of the child's life so not screamed at as an injection could be.
***
Bonsoir Nina.
And not only babies ...
I agree that a suppository would be easily applied and accepted, especially if used to it. That or injection is more likely than pills IMO ...

Yes indeed. One of my dogs has the occasional fit and has to have diazipan given via rectum when the second seizure finishes, and the drug the vet prescribes is for the use in children in a special little vial with a long nozzle for insertion. Sorry if this offends anyone but these drugs are available in the form mentioned.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by lj on 21.05.13 0:27

To handle kids that age for injection requires at least 2 people, while a suppository maybe can be given by one, but that's doubtful, even (or maybe especially) when kids have received those before.

A shot would have left a puncture mark.

About the glove: I have no doubt it is one. Maybe he had been reading too much crime solving manuals by that time.

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Lovely

Post by Curioser on 21.05.13 6:13

Ah, I do like that one. For some reason, this bit always sticks in my head:

'The time has come,' the Walrus said,
'To talk of many things:
Of shoes -- and ships -- and sealing wax --
Of cabbages -- and kings --
And why the sea is boiling hot --
And whether pigs have wings.'

I am on the mend thank you and for that reason I thought I would try to put my reading to good use in case I discovered anything that hadn't been discussed. A faint hope but perhaps every little bit helps.

'The time has come,' the McCann's said,
To talk of things to hide:
Of arrogance and pacts with friends --
Of overweening pride
And if the girl just disappeared --
And whether pigs from Portugal have any investigative skills at all or whether they're doing nothing. Or too much. F**cking tossers. How dare they question us!.'*

*With apologies to CS Lewis and coppers everywhere.

I feel that I might never make it out of this Wonderland filled with detail and contradiction so I think I have to just contribute and go, so I'll be here a little while but then I'll have to let it go.

So to class. It wouldn't be an excuse but it might offer a bit of an explanation for some things.

Kate said of Pat Brown's comments something along the lines of Brown doesn't understand our situation and class. I think Brown makes many good points and she has lots of experience in parents trying to hide their guilt so I think she is probably largely on the money. However I wondered sometimes if some of the discrepancies could be explained by the desire of the upper classes to hide any hint of rows, problems, difficulty, uncertainty etc from the outside world.

For example would David Payne 'forget' that Kate was in a towel because it wouldn't be seemly for Kate to come to the door wearing a towel? Someone on the forums said "What kind of mother answers the door wearing a towel?" which I think is a singularly stupid thing to say but the attitude exists.

All the Tapas 7 say that Madeleine was well behaved, obedient, happy etc and yet we have reports that she was a screamer and the when Kate was trying to feed the twins Madeleine would demand attention and create havoc until she received it. Perfectly normal, but they wanted to hide it. Jane Tanner says the McCann's decided to have breakfast in the room rather than 'drag' Maddie over to the Millenium. It was a slip. They also mentioned that they had problems walking Maddie back from the Millenium, Again, perfectly normal but they wanted to hide it.

David Payne said that there were no problems on the way there but he does mention a small hiccup with the taxis. Later someone else elaborates that Gerry had arranged the taxi but there wasn't room for the appropriate booster seat for one of the children. Ironic now, but Gerry made a scene and didn't want to use two taxis so they ended up using a different method to get to the resort. Payne did not want to mention it.

Some Brits still subscribe to "children should be seen and not heard". A few send their children to boarding school at seven, or farm them out to nannies, they're a bit of nuisance really. There was probably a disconnect between their attitudes to children and those of the Portuguese. It's possible that the police did jump to conclusions based on their seemingly cold attitudes, until someone clarified the cultural/societal differences. Stiff upper lip, what?

I guess you could argue that the upper class has arrogance and entitlement and fear of scandal bred into them and hiding 'shameful' things is as natural as leaving your kids alone at night while you drink with your peers.

As I said, it's not an excuse but it might be an explanation for some of the many discrepancies.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by tigger on 21.05.13 6:45

But the whole point is that these people are 'middle class' by the skin of their teeth. Only their qualifications got them there. Their behaviour, speech and possesions speak of their roots more than their achievements.

Their attitude to the world in general and foreigners in particular is pure unadulterated working class they'd like to be upper middle class imo or rather 'celebrity' class - they had a taste of it for a few months in 2007.

From the Cracked Mirror: (McCannfiles.com)
This one (group) seems to have shared, in career terms, the long view, a determination to make the most of their middling talents and a willingness to forgo youthful diversions on the steady upward march to “success”, that beguiling phantom of the future, with children scheduled for the appropriate time, accommodation increasing steadily in size – the McCanns’ Rothley house providing a stunning example of their domestic tastes – and, eventually, no doubt, a Mediterranean villa to linger in or retire to, probably the first in their respective families. unquote

Your poem is great! Just dip in and out and give your opinion as and when you want to. The more points of view the better. Debate is healthy.
I do recommend Dr. Ludke - if you put it in the search box it'll come up. Short and interesting.




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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by tigger on 21.05.13 7:31

@lj wrote:To handle kids that age for injection requires at least 2 people, while a suppository maybe can be given by one, but that's doubtful, even (or maybe especially) when kids have received those before.

A shot would have left a puncture mark.

About the glove: I have no doubt it is one. Maybe he had been reading too much crime solving manuals by that time.

Attagirl! (Hi to you too by the way smilie ) Glove I can only think because he was handling something dirty, can't see him doing nappies or any such things, so must have been something else.
Don't think they were medicating the twins because the diary relates the difficulty in getting them to sleep and their tantrums.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Curioser on 21.05.13 14:29

@tigger wrote:But the whole point is that these people are 'middle class' by the skin of their teeth. Only their qualifications got them there. Their behaviour, speech and possesions speak of their roots more than their achievements.

Their attitude to the world in general and foreigners in particular is pure unadulterated working class they'd like to be upper middle class imo or rather 'celebrity' class - they had a taste of it for a few months in 2007.

From the Cracked Mirror: (McCannfiles.com)
This one (group) seems to have shared, in career terms, the long view, a determination to make the most of their middling talents and a willingness to forgo youthful diversions on the steady upward march to “success”, that beguiling phantom of the future, with children scheduled for the appropriate time, accommodation increasing steadily in size – the McCanns’ Rothley house providing a stunning example of their domestic tastes – and, eventually, no doubt, a Mediterranean villa to linger in or retire to, probably the first in their respective families. unquote

Your poem is great! Just dip in and out and give your opinion as and when you want to. The more points of view the better. Debate is healthy.
I do recommend Dr. Ludke - if you put it in the search box it'll come up. Short and interesting.


Thank you. Sometimes stuff just arrives in my mind.

Re class, I'm showing my ignorance. So it is a middle class 'Keeping Up Appearances" sort of thing, or a British thing or perhaps a Human thing to hide every little problem from the world.

I read Ludke. That is so unthinkable that I have trouble believing it is possible. And yet, it is possible.

I also read the 27 pages of Najova Chekaya discussion and 67 pages of the latest news. I still feel almost completely ignorant lol.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by sar on 25.10.13 10:03

Is there any info on the difference between sedating babies vs toddlers?

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by worriedmum on 25.10.13 10:15

I just CANNOT believe that you would wake someone up in order to put them to sleep....
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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by thetruthbeknown on 25.10.13 10:29

I also noted on another thread someone questioning why the McCanns were admitting to Madeleine asking 'why didnt you come when I and Sean cried last night'..As it makes them look bad, and as their were no witnesses (apart from possibly Mrs Fenn hearing crying, although she only mentioned one child crying) Could be a good way of them putting across a point that they did not sedate each evening.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by PeterMac on 25.10.13 10:32

@thetruthbeknown wrote:I also noted on another thread someone questioning why the McCanns were admitting to Madeleine asking 'why didnt you come when I and Sean cried last night'..As it makes them look bad, and as their were no witnesses (apart from possibly Mrs Fenn hearing crying, although she only mentioned one child crying) Could be a good way of them putting across a point that they did not sedate each evening.
It is a much better way of showing that Madeleine was alive on 3rd.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by thetruthbeknown on 25.10.13 10:38

@PeterMac wrote:
@thetruthbeknown wrote:I also noted on another thread someone questioning why the McCanns were admitting to Madeleine asking 'why didnt you come when I and Sean cried last night'..As it makes them look bad, and as their were no witnesses (apart from possibly Mrs Fenn hearing crying, although she only mentioned one child crying) Could be a good way of them putting across a point that they did not sedate each evening.
It is a much better way of showing that Madeleine was alive on 3rd.
Yes that too..

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by thetruthbeknown on 25.10.13 10:39

Was there actual concrete sighting of Madeleine being in the creche on the 3rd? Or just signatures in the book?

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Sockpuppet on 25.10.13 10:39

I've wondered whether Kate checking the twins' breathing is an indication that she suspected that she might have given the children too strong a dose.

I also wonder any of the other Tapas group knew about the sedation.  Fiona Payne needlessly draws attention to Kate's checking of the twins in her statement, so it makes me think that at least she had no idea about it.  If she was 'in on it', she would surely have not mentioned it.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Searcher on 25.10.13 10:58

@Sockpuppet wrote:I've wondered whether Kate checking the twins' breathing is an indication that she suspected that she might have given the children too strong a dose.

I also wonder any of the other Tapas group knew about the sedation.  Fiona Payne needlessly draws attention to Kate's checking of the twins in her statement, so it makes me think that at least she had no idea about it.  If she was 'in on it', she would surely have not mentioned it.
What I also wonder about is:  how could two parents, doctors, not insist that the twins were taken to hospital immediately for a full check, inc. analysis of any sedation by an abductor?  I think that could be a major need for most parents. 


We would be saying, surely:  "Are the twins safe?  Are they at risk?"  Just 'checking' that a child is breathing by placing a hand on their back - or another means - does not ensure that they are safe, even if the parent is a doctor.  Surely, in such a situation the first thought would be to check properly and urgently.  'I know nothing about what has happened; one child is taken; two others were there and could have been at serious risk of interference, or given an overdose by the abductor.  How do I know they were not in such a terrifying situation?  What action would I take and insist on as a parent?'

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by ladyblackthorn on 25.10.13 12:02

Hi - As a nurse I'm very interested in this thread and the subject of sedation.

Anyone who's given an intra-muscular injection, or witnessed an injection being given to a young child will know it most often causes distress, sometimes inconsolable distress with prolonged crying.
Not only will there be a puncture mark, but there will very often be localised redness at the site of the injection.
Any doctor or nurse can recognise the difference between a sedated child and one who is purely 'sleepy'.

If a child needs 'sedating' quietly and without distress there are definately more compassionate options.

I spent a year back in the 1990's on a children's ward. During that time I prepared many children for theatre.
In the whole of those 12 months I never once gave a young child an intra-muscular 'premed' injection.

All the 'premeds'  I gave were oral (most commonly) or rectal (very rare).
Generally it would take approx. 15 minutes for a child to be suitably  sleepy to be taken to theatre, but 30 mins would be preferable.
Midazolam for example (oral/rectal) is rapidly absorbed and is commonly used in children as a premed.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Sockpuppet on 25.10.13 12:41

@Searcher wrote:
@Sockpuppet wrote:I've wondered whether Kate checking the twins' breathing is an indication that she suspected that she might have given the children too strong a dose.

I also wonder any of the other Tapas group knew about the sedation.  Fiona Payne needlessly draws attention to Kate's checking of the twins in her statement, so it makes me think that at least she had no idea about it.  If she was 'in on it', she would surely have not mentioned it.
What I also wonder about is:  how could two parents, doctors, not insist that the twins were taken to hospital immediately for a full check, inc. analysis of any sedation by an abductor?  I think that could be a major need for most parents. 


We would be saying, surely:  "Are the twins safe?  Are they at risk?"  Just 'checking' that a child is breathing by placing a hand on their back - or another means - does not ensure that they are safe, even if the parent is a doctor.  Surely, in such a situation the first thought would be to check properly and urgently.  'I know nothing about what has happened; one child is taken; two others were there and could have been at serious risk of interference, or given an overdose by the abductor.  How do I know they were not in such a terrifying situation?  What action would I take and insist on as a parent?'
Indeed, I've also made that point - it indicates that Kate must have known what chemicals were in her childrens' bloodstreams.  My further point is that the checking of the twins by Kate might also indicate something worse - not only does she know what chemicals are in her childrens' bloodstreams, but she suspects that the dose is at dangerous levels.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Newintown on 25.10.13 13:00

@Sockpuppet wrote:
@Searcher wrote:
@Sockpuppet wrote:I've wondered whether Kate checking the twins' breathing is an indication that she suspected that she might have given the children too strong a dose.

I also wonder any of the other Tapas group knew about the sedation.  Fiona Payne needlessly draws attention to Kate's checking of the twins in her statement, so it makes me think that at least she had no idea about it.  If she was 'in on it', she would surely have not mentioned it.
What I also wonder about is:  how could two parents, doctors, not insist that the twins were taken to hospital immediately for a full check, inc. analysis of any sedation by an abductor?  I think that could be a major need for most parents. 


We would be saying, surely:  "Are the twins safe?  Are they at risk?"  Just 'checking' that a child is breathing by placing a hand on their back - or another means - does not ensure that they are safe, even if the parent is a doctor.  Surely, in such a situation the first thought would be to check properly and urgently.  'I know nothing about what has happened; one child is taken; two others were there and could have been at serious risk of interference, or given an overdose by the abductor.  How do I know they were not in such a terrifying situation?  What action would I take and insist on as a parent?'
Indeed, I've also made that point - it indicates that Kate must have known what chemicals were in her childrens' bloodstreams.  My further point is that the checking of the twins by Kate might also indicate something worse - not only does she know what chemicals are in her childrens' bloodstreams, but she suspects that the dose is at dangerous levels.
Exactly, the easiest thing to have done seeing that K McCann was a doctor would have been to wake the twins up and check them over for any needle marks (sedation etc) and whether they had been interfered with, then take them to hospital for any tests, but obviously Kate would have known they couldn't be woken up if they'd all ready been sedated.

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