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The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

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The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by worriedmum on 14.04.13 18:51

Kate has said in interviews that she believed the abductor/s' was/were watching her and her family. There have also been suggestions that the twins were sedated by the abductor/s.

If that is the case, can someone please explain why he/she/they would need to sedate the twins?

because, if as Kate suggests,they were being observed:

the twins were wearing nappies and went to toddler creche and slept in cots-to most people the word 'baby '' is suggested here;

the cots had high,semi-opaque sides and were in a darkened room with the shutters down.What could they see?

the twins were asleep;

their level of speech would probably not enable them to give a e-fit or probably not even be able to draw an egg man;

if they had woken up and cried, no-one could have heard them (except possibly a neighbour);

people from their tapas group checked on them-but the twins barely knew some of them, so would be unlikely to discriminate between friends or a potential abductor;

there was, as Kate said, only 'a small window of opportunity'. Sedation at the time of abduction would only work from that point on-why risk waking sleeping children? Sedation earlier? If you have time to sedate two or three children, surely you could have abducted a child by this time? And left? So why , can someone explain please,would the twins be sedated AT ALL?
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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Guest on 14.04.13 19:50

I take that to be a rhetorical question
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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by PeterMac on 14.04.13 22:23


1 Were the twins sedated on the night of 3rd May 2007?
The question of sedation of the three McCann children is one which has caused
problems since the very beginning.
Reported facts.
Around 10 pm 3rd May 2007 Kate McCann entered the apartment in the holiday
resort and reported Madeleine missing. The younger twins were still in their travel
cots in the same room, and were asleep.
What followed is a matter of public record. The apartment was searched, several
times, by many people, the surrounding area was searched by large numbers of
police and ex-pats and villagers, and huge amount of activity was directed to
discovering Madeleine’s whereabouts. All were in vain.
BUT . . . during all of this commotion -
despite a window and shutters having been open for an hour on a cold night,
despite the door slamming shut,
despite curtains blowing into the room,
despite their mother frantically opening and closing wardrobes and cupboards
despite their mother rushing out screaming for help,
despite the entire Tapas 7 group searching throughout the apartment,
despite Kate and the Tapas group shouting Madeleine’s name outside,
despite Gerry McCann’s closing and opening the shutters multiple times
despite Mrs Webster’s similarly attempting to open the shutters but failing,
despite the Police investigating the scene,
despite Gerry’s “roaring like a lion” and then prostrating himself on the floor,
despite both parents repeating this action and wailing
despite Kate’s checking the twins for vital signs,
despite the twins being lifted from their cots by people not their parents, and
despite their being carried out into the cold night air, and to another apartment.
[1.1]
Despite all of this . . . the twins did not wake
Kate McCann stated in 2011 that she had suspected sedation from the very first.
Given the above perhaps this is understandable. [1.2]
In her book, Madeleine, which she described as “A Version of the Truth”, she says
this explicitly.

3 May 2007 (NOTE: this information was not released until May 2011)
p. 75 “Had Madeleine been given some kind of sedative to keep her quiet ? Had
the twins, too ?” [1.3]
She also reported this to the Officer in the case
3 August 2007 (NOTE: this information was not released until June 2008)
“due to which she now presumes that they were under the effect of some sedative
drug that a presumed abductor had administered to the three children in order to
be able to abduct Madeleine, a situation which Kate refers to being possible . .”
[1.4]
The McCanns then organised their own drug tests
24 September 2007
Forensic scientist from Control Risks take hair samples from Kate and the twins at
the McCanns’ own request [1.5]
A family member was ‘allowed’ to release this to the press.
02 October 2007
“Madeleine was drugged by her abductor”, says her grandmother [1.6]
Gerry McCann reconfirms their suspicions
19 Nov. 2007
“Gerry McCann: The twins were still sleeping in the their cots so . . . we tried to
leave it as undisturbed as possible, and they slept very soundly until we moved
them out their cots into another apartment . . which does make you wonder if
there was [sic] any substances used to keep them asleep.” [1.7]
Independent witnesses report and confirm the McCanns’ suspicions
25 April 2008 (referring to early May 2007)
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that
the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
[1.8]
5 Nov. 2007
Diane Webster - Fiona Payne’s mother: “Err the twins were still asleep in the cot
and I, with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it which makes
me think there was, they must have been err drugged with something.” . . .
“So how would you imagine that they may have been drugged?”
“Err by the abductor. I think Madeleine would have been drugged as well.” [1.9]
10 April 2008
Fiona Payne: “But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn’t, they were
asleep, but at the time it did seem weird . . . they didn’t wake up and, again, that
was quite strange, even in the transfer and, and being handled by people that
weren’t their parents, they didn’t, they didn’t wake up.” [1.10]
Their own private detectives make a statement
11 Oct. 2009
Former police detectives David Edgar and Arthur Cowley . . . are convinced the
abductor went to the family’s apartment on May 3 2007 fully prepared with sufficient
drugs, probably chloroform, to knock out all three children. The fact that Sean and
Amelie, then just 18 months old, failed to wake when the alarm was raised, nor
even as they were taken to another apartment in the cold night air, has persuaded
the detectives that they, too, must have been drugged. [1.11]
And just before the release of her book ‘Madeleine’, Kate says she believes they were drugged.
13 May 2011
Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins on the night Madeleine was
taken. Kate McCann said the kidnapper who seized Madeleine may also have
drugged her other two children, as she launched a new appeal in the hunt for her
missing girl today.
Mrs McCann said she had to check that twins Sean and Amelie were still breathing
because they did not wake as they began a frantic search for the missing threeyear-
old. [1.12]

Those then are the facts relating to the McCanns’ belief in sedation of the twins.
NOTE:
Levels of sedation are assessed according to the The Ramsay
Sedation Scale. RSS. This was the first scale to be defined for sedated
patients and was designed as a test of rousability. The RSS scores
sedation at six different levels, according to how rousable the patient is.
It is an intuitively obvious scale and therefore lends itself to universal
use, not only in the ICU, but wherever sedative drugs or narcotics are
given. It can be added to the pain score and be considered the sixth vital
sign.
Ramsay Sedation Scale
1 Patient is anxious and agitated or restless, or both
2 Patient is cooperative, oriented and tranquil
3 Patient responds to commands only
4 Patient exhibits brisk response to light glabellar (forehead) tap or
loud auditory stimulus
5 Patient exhibits a sluggish response to light glabellar tap or loud
auditory stimulus
6 Patient exhibits no response [1.13]
The twins are clearly in point 6 on the scale. They are failing to respond to
external stimuli, cold, light, noise - including screaming, the inevitable jolting of the
cots placed so close together in a small room during the search and window /
shutter procedures, human touch, being picked up by person other than their own
parents, and so on. [1.14]

We should remember that Kate McCann and Fiona Payne are both qualified
anaesthetists. Even a non qualified parent should recognise the difference
between a child which was merely asleep, and one that was sedated. or
unconscious. We return to this aspect in the third question.

So to restate the original question - were the twins sedated ?

The reply must surely be, that having regard to all the available evidence, we can
confirm the parents’ and witnesses original and subsequent thoughts and say that
on the balance of probabilities -
the twins Amelie and Sean McCann were sedated

And to go further as I have done, there is NOTHING which can do that to three children within the window of opportunity of one minute and 20 seconds.

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.

Post by aniandr on 14.04.13 22:48

Ofcoz they were. But it will never be proved.

If it was my kids and i even had the smallest clue my kids were sedated i would get them in hospital instantly. But again the mc seems a bit off parenting, unless ofcoz they knew that the kids were sedated. Im sure they got around a lot by saying "we are doctors".

It would be like seeing a man in a jewlery store at night saying "we are police officers". Then most of us would back of, beeing surprised to realise to late that they were behind the whole thibg, but you are to late to prove.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by plebgate on 16.04.13 9:13

Why the need for a Fund? They could have made an absolute fortune charging people for the secret on how to get so many children to sleep and stay sound asleep for hours on end even when mayhem broke loose all around.

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Pure speculation

Post by Curioser on 20.05.13 8:42

So it looks like she already knew they were sedated.

I'm new here. Is it slander or something to even suggest that the parents sedated them? If it is, then Admin please delete this post!

So they sedated them all but Madeleine woke up, as she often did, and groggily wandered around the apartment, perhaps hearing her father out the window, eventually falling off the back of the sofa. That would explain why she was so worried about the twins and kept checking that they were breathing.

Has anyone ever suggested as a hypothetical that the children may have been sedated twice? Once for each parent?

If Madeleine fell and accidentally gave herself a fatal injury, would there have been an autopsy? If an autopsy revealed any sedation what would that have done to the parents' careers? What would it have done to their fine reputations?

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by tigger on 20.05.13 9:16

You might like to read this topic: https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3748-sofa-accident-death-really

I think it proves the impossibility of an accident having happened that night.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Curioser on 20.05.13 10:59

@tigger wrote:You might like to read this topic: https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3748-sofa-accident-death-really

I think it proves the impossibility of an accident having happened that night.

Hi Tigger, thank you for that. I have been ill the last couple of weeks and have fallen down the rabbit hole but I can see that I am outclassed here and a complete newbie. I'll read all 27 pages after tea.

That said, and seeing as you seem to be online at the moment have people discussed the extra phones? and the class ramifications for the McCann's?

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by suzyjohnson on 20.05.13 11:09

Actually, Curiouser, I think that's quite a good idea, that she could have been sedated accidentally by both parents

Just going to read the sofa + accident article now

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by tigger on 20.05.13 11:38

@Curioser wrote:
@tigger wrote:You might like to read this topic: https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3748-sofa-accident-death-really

I think it proves the impossibility of an accident having happened that night.

Hi Tigger, thank you for that. I have been ill the last couple of weeks and have fallen down the rabbit hole but I can see that I am outclassed here and a complete newbie. I'll read all 27 pages after tea.

That said, and seeing as you seem to be online at the moment have people discussed the extra phones? and the class ramifications for the McCann's?

I don't understand the class ramifications? But phones have been discussed over the years. Have a look at the timelines forum here, a lot have been incorporated and there are various other topics on mobiles/telephone records.
I'm not on line all the time, but I never bother to log out so it may look like that.
Get well soon, I'm very fond of Lewis Carroll especially the poem by the White Rabbit:

'They told me you had been to her,
And mentioned me to him:
She gave me a good character,
But said I could not swim.

He sent them word I had not gone
(We know it to be true):
If she should push the matter on,
What would become of you?

I gave her one, they gave him two,
You gave us three or more;
They all returned from him to you,
Though they were mine before.

If I or she should chance to be
Involved in this affair,
He trusts to you to set them free,
Exactly as we were.

My notion was that you had been
(Before she had this fit)
An obstacle that came between
Him, and ourselves, and it.

Don't let him know she liked them best,
For this must ever be
A secret, kept from all the rest,
Between yourself and me.'

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accidental overdose

Post by dentdelion on 20.05.13 15:12

That was one of my first thoughts.... if both parents involved in putting kids to bed in a new environment and different routines to homelife, it would be very easy for this to happen... while one was busy with a nappy change/shower whatever for other to dose a child not realising it had already been done. Maybe there was sweet to induce child to take a pill or was there a nice tasting elixir so child would have not owned up?
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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Guest on 20.05.13 17:08

Or a painless, professionally applied injection?
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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by PeterMac on 20.05.13 18:18

Châtelaine wrote:Or a painless, professionally applied injection?
I don't think there was any paraphernalia discovered. If there had been, it could have been blamed on the 'abductor'.
But strangely GM was seen wearing latex gloves later in the piece, when loading pamphlets into the car for the trip to Huelva. Very odd.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by bobbin on 20.05.13 18:25

@PeterMac wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:Or a painless, professionally applied injection?
I don't think there was any paraphernalia discovered. If there had been, it could have been blamed on the 'abductor'.
But strangely GM was seen wearing latex gloves later in the piece, when loading pamphlets into the car for the trip to Huelva. Very odd.
Can you remember if the latex glove was agreed PeterMac. I believe some were found in one of the drawers, even photographed by police, and I remember the discussion on one of the threads about the glove on hand at the boot of the car, but can't remember if the photo analysis agreed it or whether it was just thought to be skin fold.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by View-from-Ireland on 20.05.13 18:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N47AUYhD4Dg Gerry is wearing a glove at 4.54 in this video. Also, something disturbs me about the way he looks into the boot at 5.35.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by sami on 20.05.13 18:57

@bobbin wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:Or a painless, professionally applied injection?
I don't think there was any paraphernalia discovered. If there had been, it could have been blamed on the 'abductor'.
But strangely GM was seen wearing latex gloves later in the piece, when loading pamphlets into the car for the trip to Huelva. Very odd.
Can you remember if the latex glove was agreed PeterMac. I believe some were found in one of the drawers, even photographed by police, and I remember the discussion on one of the threads about the glove on hand at the boot of the car, but can't remember if the photo analysis agreed it or whether it was just thought to be skin fold.


The gloves were in the bedside drawer in the villa and were filmed during the dogs search. The video mentioned above shows gmcc wearing a glove very clearly. It never dawned on me before but there is a bit of footage of the boot in that video, seems a bit in your face, look we are opening and closing the boot, look there is nothing there.

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 20.05.13 19:02

Why on earth would he need latex gloves on holiday?

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by sami on 20.05.13 19:11

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:Why on earth would he need latex gloves on holiday?

And who keeps them next to their bed ??

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 20.05.13 19:16

bad

oh, be-have!


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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by bobbin on 20.05.13 19:18

@sami wrote:
@bobbin wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:Or a painless, professionally applied injection?
I don't think there was any paraphernalia discovered. If there had been, it could have been blamed on the 'abductor'.
But
strangely GM was seen wearing latex gloves later in the piece, when
loading pamphlets into the car for the trip to Huelva. Very odd.
Can you remember if the latex glove was agreed PeterMac. I believe some were found in one of the drawers, even photographed by police, and I remember the discussion on one of the threads about the glove on hand at the boot of the car, but can't remember if the photo analysis agreed it or whether it was just thought to be skin fold.


The gloves were in the bedside drawer in the villa and were filmed during the dogs search. The video mentioned above shows gmcc wearing a glove very clearly. It never dawned on me before but there is a bit of footage of the boot in that video, seems a bit in your face, look we
are opening and closing the boot, look there is nothing there.
Ah, thanks for that, yes, I do see the glove and, interesting, 'a lot of boot in your face', of all the things they could film, and this following on from Jon Corner (starting at 4.16) saying about 'a friend filming them', why would they invite this if they had something to hide (not
verbatim). Picture of innocence is also painted that the McCs had asked for the FBI and been refused by Portuguese police.... (but then the interviewer tells us that a team of British dogs had been sent in instead, finding blood and cadavour).

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Guest on 20.05.13 19:58

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:Why on earth would he need latex gloves on holiday?

Not to smear DNA all over the place? Just thinking!

Also, I remember seeing a microscope in the longer video inside the place, when they were stuffing the van.

Made me wonder why they thought to bring THAT with them on holiday.

But maybe it's feasible to examine somebody's hairs -as in, say: twin toddlers hairs- using a microscope to check whether any drugs have been washed out of their system?

IMO, just trying to find the answers to find Madeleine, of course!
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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Guest on 20.05.13 20:39

@PeterMac wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:Or a painless, professionally applied injection?
I don't think there was any paraphernalia discovered. If there had been, it could have been blamed on the 'abductor'.
But strangely GM was seen wearing latex gloves later in the piece, when loading pamphlets into the car for the trip to Huelva. Very odd.
***
Despite all of the haymay, if any, it would have been only seconds to get rid of that.
Intramuscular or introvascular injection is quick and reliable. As opposed to something to digest ... risk of vomiting ... not effectively / quickly enough ...

A propos the latex gloves / the car to Huelva: I'm convinced it is a play of light. Only high definition[ which it was not] would have given a clear picture. I've looked at it many times and I think it's just a [coloured] shadow.
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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by sami on 20.05.13 20:46

Châtelaine wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:Or a painless, professionally applied injection?
I don't think there was any paraphernalia discovered. If there had been, it could have been blamed on the 'abductor'.
But strangely GM was seen wearing latex gloves later in the piece, when loading pamphlets into the car for the trip to Huelva. Very odd.
***
Despite all of the haymay, if any, it would have been only seconds to get rid of that.
Intramuscular or introvascular injection is quick and reliable. As opposed to something to digest ... risk of vomiting ... not effectively / quickly enough ...

A propos the latex gloves / the car to Huelva: I'm convinced it is a play of light. Only high definition[ which it was not] would have given a clear picture. I've looked at it many times and I think it's just a [coloured] shadow.

Chatelaine, I have looked at that video a few times over the years and again today with the link provided. Today for the first time I can quite clearly see a glove, prior to today I had used the same pc to view it, now on ipad it is there, for me anyway

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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by Guest on 20.05.13 20:55

@ Sami

With all due respect: I've been watching since 2007 each and every video on a state-of-the-art iMac. And, having quite some experience in audio & visual, have so far not detected a glove. However, I wouldn't mind to be proven wrong, as it would be some indication of something "wrong" ...

If someone can give me a quick reference to the subject video, I am more than willing to have a look at it again. Thanks in advance.
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Re: The 'watchful abductor' and sedation

Post by sami on 20.05.13 20:59

Châtelaine wrote:@ Sami

With all due respect: I've been watching since 2007 each and every video on a state-of-the-art iMac. And, having quite some experience in audio & visual, have so far not detected a glove. However, I wouldn't mind to be proven wrong, as it would be some indication of something "wrong" ...

If someone can give me a quick reference to the subject video, I am more than willing to have a look at it again. Thanks in advance.



I used the link on the previous page of this thread.

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