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Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Nina on 27.03.13 22:33

@PeterMac wrote:
@Nina wrote:And so to Madeleine on top of the covers, in a short sleeved pj top with just below the knee bottoms. No mention ever of a vest or panties underneath so must presume that is all she was wearing. It was a cool night, we have heard it was yet she wasn't gently lifted back into her bed under the covers which to be honest only looked like a sheet and a coverlet so not very much anyway, no blankets being used, usually to be found in the top cupboards of the wardrobes. Early May and it was cool at night, and no one to cuddle up to under the cold cotton sheets, didn't even cuddle her cuddle cat nor her pink blanket. And she was laid in the recovery position according to her father the heart consultant. My anger is brewing.


Jane Tanner “it was quite a cold night” “It was actually quite cold”: and Kate McCann “It was so cold and windy”.
And JT went back to take one of her husband's / partner's fleeces.
Panorama documentary, 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann',
madeleine, by Kate McCann. p. 73


What heating was available in the apartment ? Does anyone know ? Don't even think about central heating, or underfloor !

They simply have not rehearsed the story properly. It changes by the minute.

Doesn't look as though it had aircon which can be used as a heater. And no wood burning stove, and no sign of any electric heaters, no rugs on the floor, no blankets on the beds so how the hec did they keep warm.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Khalgregar on 27.03.13 22:44

So where does this lead us?

- The story of Madeleine on top of the covers seems very improbable, especially given that it was a cold evening
- The ever changing explanations point towards deception, both from Kate and from Gerry
- Kate is confused about the last moments that she saw her daughter
- Photographs of the bedroom show a bed that looks as if it has not been slept in

It seems very likely that Madeleine did not sleep on her bed, and that the McCann statements regarding the last sightings of the disappeared child are deliberately false.

When you get that far, I cannot understand why both McCanns are not answering these questions in a criminal court.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by sharonl on 27.03.13 22:45

If Madeleine was sleeping on top of the covers why in Kates' Arguido statement does she say

"The cover was neatly pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual".

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Nina on 27.03.13 22:55

@sharonl wrote:If Madeleine was sleeping on top of the covers why in Kates' Arguido statement does she say

"The cover was neatly pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual".

'as usual' what's this all about then? So Madeleine didn't normally cuddle her pink cat/blanket, she left them by the pillow. Must keep stuff tidy aaagh

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Angelique on 28.03.13 2:22

I think this description by Kate is quite telling.

"The cover was neatly pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual".

Also the fact that it was very neat and clinical. I think it has even been described in detail about a "neat triangle". How it should look is ruffled as has been mentioned. But these are Doctors and in practice they would see neatly made beds and they would routinely make their own beds in a similar style. So maybe this was just an error that didn't stand out to them.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by tigger on 28.03.13 6:06

Two beds: one rumpled under the window, on very neat against the wall.
The cleaners came on Wednesday. The bed near the wall looks as if it was tidied by the cleaner. I don't think the McCanns are great on housekeeping, imo making beds is something that happens to other people as far as they're concerned.

So the unused bed is the only candidate. The other bed was rumpled but it's possible that the twins slept there with the cots pushed up against the side for safety. It seems to be a sensitive issue whether the twins were ready to sleep in a bed. But in the Vanity Fair Interview and other interviews, we hear snippets of the twins lying in bed.
Remember also that the initial report (via Philomena) was that Maddie was sleeping in between the twins which could only have been a bed.

Gerry had ample time to mess up the bed but didn't - perhaps Kate should have done it but both were too focussed on the enormous gamble they were taking that evening. A lot of other details didn't synchronise with the story either. Imo they're just not very observant people.
Initially Cuddlecat (the toys??) was on a high ledge - together with the impossible-to-get-out window for Maddie, the impossible-ledge-to-reach and so 'she knew!'
Possibly - because the apartments were all very much the same, (which is why MO said he saw two windows in the children's room - there were in his apartment) the setting was based on another apartment. Where there was a ledge. I remember there was a discussion about this long ago.
Then there is the apartment 5J and 5H where the GNR dogs alerted. So it need not have been an apartment occupied by the T7.

I think that the main problem lies with the fairy tale and the person who dreamt it up. Someone who from childhood always got away with a lie, however bad.
I know people exactly like that, their lies are usually very badly thought out, but it's easier to pretend you believe them than get into an argument with them.
Until they cross a line.

One last thought: a lot of things went wrong that night. Perhaps it was Kate's job (not having found a ledge to put CC on) to rumple the bed and she forgot. Once there were other people in the room she couldn't do it anymore.
I still think a 9.45 alarm was initially meant to happen. A hastily adjusted time table would make you forget details.

But despite being in the room whilst telephoning the family - the ledge, the broken shutters and the door 'hanging open' were alive and well.
The very room lacking all the necessary props and yet they stuck to the story! Original thinkers, not so much.


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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by plebgate on 28.03.13 12:47

Snipped from Tigger's post:


I think that the main problem lies with the fairy tale and the
person who dreamt it up. Someone who from childhood always got away
with a lie, however bad.
I know people exactly like that, their lies
are usually very badly thought out, but it's easier to pretend you
believe them than get into an argument with them.
Until they cross a line.


I know somebody like that and in one instance actually saw them doing something and said so and they still denied many times having done it.

Deny, deny, deny at all costs.

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Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by suzyjohnson on 28.03.13 17:10

' .........The problem that I have with the idea that Maddy died before the 3rd - if that is your view Jean, don't let me put words in your mouth! - is that the whole 'cover story' seems rushed and full of errors. For example, why not ruffle the bed up to make it look like Maddy had slept in it? Why not engineer better evidence of the shutters being 'jemmied open'? My belief - that Maddy probably died on the evening of the 3rd - is formed mainly from two things. Firstly, that Kate's behaviour seemed to match that of a mother who had just lost her child, hysterical, grieving, unable to act. Secondly, if they had had time to plan the evening's events, they did it very badly, giving us 'loons' so much to doubt it. No, to me the whole affair looked like it was put together in a rush, in a half an hour. By the time the police arrived, they didn't have the opportunity to arrange the 'crime scene' better ............'

Yes, Khalgregar, I agree with you.

Just one thing I've not seen mentioned on this thread, they would only be worried about a child being cold with no bedcovers, if she were alive. When Gerry says that she was, at one point, lying in the recovery position, perhaps this is true,



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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by tigger on 28.03.13 18:21

@suzyjohnson wrote:' .........The problem that I have with the idea that Maddy died before the 3rd - if that is your view Jean, don't let me put words in your mouth! - is that the whole 'cover story' seems rushed and full of errors. For example, why not ruffle the bed up to make it look like Maddy had slept in it? Why not engineer better evidence of the shutters being 'jemmied open'? My belief - that Maddy probably died on the evening of the 3rd - is formed mainly from two things. Firstly, that Kate's behaviour seemed to match that of a mother who had just lost her child, hysterical, grieving, unable to act. Secondly, if they had had time to plan the evening's events, they did it very badly, giving us 'loons' so much to doubt it. No, to me the whole affair looked like it was put together in a rush, in a half an hour. By the time the police arrived, they didn't have the opportunity to arrange the 'crime scene' better ............'

Yes, Khalgregar, I agree with you.

Just one thing I've not seen mentioned on this thread, they would only be worried about a child being cold with no bedcovers, if she were alive. When Gerry says that she was, at one point, lying in the recovery position, perhaps this is true,



There was no cadaver odour on the bed, half an hour would not be enough to develop this odour in any case and it should also allow for the body to have spent some time behind the sofa on the floor. About one hour to 90 minutes in that location.

Of course, whilst they were wondering what to do next, having found the body, they managed to find a USB key with two out of date photographs of Maddie, complete with an eye defect she didn't have, as attested by both parents in 2011 during a Piers Morgan interview.
Soon after the alarm was raised it became imperative to delete calls from their equally out of date mobiles which were only capable of holding up to ten calls. Kate was functioning well enough to do that right at least.
She might have been grieving all the while she was doing these things, deleting calls, swearing at Mrs. Fenn and phoning home - multi-tasking so to speak - but I doubt it.

Then there was the floor to clean, did Kate get down on her knees to scrub it clean, a truly Macbethian act? That would be one very busy hour or two.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Khalgregar on 28.03.13 19:17

@tigger wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:' .........The problem that I have with the idea that Maddy died before the 3rd - if that is your view Jean, don't let me put words in your mouth! - is that the whole 'cover story' seems rushed and full of errors. For example, why not ruffle the bed up to make it look like Maddy had slept in it? Why not engineer better evidence of the shutters being 'jemmied open'? My belief - that Maddy probably died on the evening of the 3rd - is formed mainly from two things. Firstly, that Kate's behaviour seemed to match that of a mother who had just lost her child, hysterical, grieving, unable to act. Secondly, if they had had time to plan the evening's events, they did it very badly, giving us 'loons' so much to doubt it. No, to me the whole affair looked like it was put together in a rush, in a half an hour. By the time the police arrived, they didn't have the opportunity to arrange the 'crime scene' better ............'

Yes, Khalgregar, I agree with you.

Just one thing I've not seen mentioned on this thread, they would only be worried about a child being cold with no bedcovers, if she were alive. When Gerry says that she was, at one point, lying in the recovery position, perhaps this is true,



There was no cadaver odour on the bed, half an hour would not be enough to develop this odour in any case and it should also allow for the body to have spent some time behind the sofa on the floor. About one hour to 90 minutes in that location.

Of course, whilst they were wondering what to do next, having found the body, they managed to find a USB key with two out of date photographs of Maddie, complete with an eye defect she didn't have, as attested by both parents in 2011 during a Piers Morgan interview.
Soon after the alarm was raised it became imperative to delete calls from their equally out of date mobiles which were only capable of holding up to ten calls. Kate was functioning well enough to do that right at least.
She might have been grieving all the while she was doing these things, deleting calls, swearing at Mrs. Fenn and phoning home - multi-tasking so to speak - but I doubt it.

Then there was the floor to clean, did Kate get down on her knees to scrub it clean, a truly Macbethian act? That would be one very busy hour or two.

I take issue with a few points:

- Anybody could have deleted Kate's calls
- According to Mrs. Fenn it was Gerry that she spoke to, and I believe that account far more than Kate's account in her book

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by tigger on 28.03.13 19:56

@Khalgregar wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:' .........The problem that I have with the idea that Maddy died before the 3rd - if that is your view Jean, don't let me put words in your mouth! - is that the whole 'cover story' seems rushed and full of errors. For example, why not ruffle the bed up to make it look like Maddy had slept in it? Why not engineer better evidence of the shutters being 'jemmied open'? My belief - that Maddy probably died on the evening of the 3rd - is formed mainly from two things. Firstly, that Kate's behaviour seemed to match that of a mother who had just lost her child, hysterical, grieving, unable to act. Secondly, if they had had time to plan the evening's events, they did it very badly, giving us 'loons' so much to doubt it. No, to me the whole affair looked like it was put together in a rush, in a half an hour. By the time the police arrived, they didn't have the opportunity to arrange the 'crime scene' better ............'

Yes, Khalgregar, I agree with you.

Just one thing I've not seen mentioned on this thread, they would only be worried about a child being cold with no bedcovers, if she were alive. When Gerry says that she was, at one point, lying in the recovery position, perhaps this is true,



There was no cadaver odour on the bed, half an hour would not be enough to develop this odour in any case and it should also allow for the body to have spent some time behind the sofa on the floor. About one hour to 90 minutes in that location.

Of course, whilst they were wondering what to do next, having found the body, they managed to find a USB key with two out of date photographs of Maddie, complete with an eye defect she didn't have, as attested by both parents in 2011 during a Piers Morgan interview.
Soon after the alarm was raised it became imperative to delete calls from their equally out of date mobiles which were only capable of holding up to ten calls. Kate was functioning well enough to do that right at least.
She might have been grieving all the while she was doing these things, deleting calls, swearing at Mrs. Fenn and phoning home - multi-tasking so to speak - but I doubt it.

Then there was the floor to clean, did Kate get down on her knees to scrub it clean, a truly Macbethian act? That would be one very busy hour or two.

I take issue with a few points:

- Anybody could have deleted Kate's calls
- According to Mrs. Fenn it was Gerry that she spoke to, and I believe that account far more than Kate's account in her book

So who would have deleted Kate's calls? She was phoning her family and friends. Not likely that she gave it to someone else in the time?
I believe Mrs. Fenn - but I'm pointing out that Kate herself says that she and Fiona called Mrs. Fenn 'a few choice words'. Swear words I take it, going by the choice of 'mantra' used when interviewed.
None of the above are actions of a grieving woman.

Psychologically, it's way off the scale to say a woman is grieving at the same time as faking an abduction which has been decided upon in a very short time indeed. The logistics required in the clean up, the removal and temporary storage of the body and the decisions to be taken as to how the child was 'abducted' would take up considerable time and effort.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Khalgregar on 28.03.13 20:14

@tigger wrote:
@Khalgregar wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:' .........The problem that I have with the idea that Maddy died before the 3rd - if that is your view Jean, don't let me put words in your mouth! - is that the whole 'cover story' seems rushed and full of errors. For example, why not ruffle the bed up to make it look like Maddy had slept in it? Why not engineer better evidence of the shutters being 'jemmied open'? My belief - that Maddy probably died on the evening of the 3rd - is formed mainly from two things. Firstly, that Kate's behaviour seemed to match that of a mother who had just lost her child, hysterical, grieving, unable to act. Secondly, if they had had time to plan the evening's events, they did it very badly, giving us 'loons' so much to doubt it. No, to me the whole affair looked like it was put together in a rush, in a half an hour. By the time the police arrived, they didn't have the opportunity to arrange the 'crime scene' better ............'

Yes, Khalgregar, I agree with you.

Just one thing I've not seen mentioned on this thread, they would only be worried about a child being cold with no bedcovers, if she were alive. When Gerry says that she was, at one point, lying in the recovery position, perhaps this is true,



There was no cadaver odour on the bed, half an hour would not be enough to develop this odour in any case and it should also allow for the body to have spent some time behind the sofa on the floor. About one hour to 90 minutes in that location.

Of course, whilst they were wondering what to do next, having found the body, they managed to find a USB key with two out of date photographs of Maddie, complete with an eye defect she didn't have, as attested by both parents in 2011 during a Piers Morgan interview.
Soon after the alarm was raised it became imperative to delete calls from their equally out of date mobiles which were only capable of holding up to ten calls. Kate was functioning well enough to do that right at least.
She might have been grieving all the while she was doing these things, deleting calls, swearing at Mrs. Fenn and phoning home - multi-tasking so to speak - but I doubt it.

Then there was the floor to clean, did Kate get down on her knees to scrub it clean, a truly Macbethian act? That would be one very busy hour or two.

I take issue with a few points:

- Anybody could have deleted Kate's calls
- According to Mrs. Fenn it was Gerry that she spoke to, and I believe that account far more than Kate's account in her book

So who would have deleted Kate's calls? She was phoning her family and friends. Not likely that she gave it to someone else in the time?
I believe Mrs. Fenn - but I'm pointing out that Kate herself says that she and Fiona called Mrs. Fenn 'a few choice words'. Swear words I take it, going by the choice of 'mantra' used when interviewed.
None of the above are actions of a grieving woman.

Psychologically, it's way off the scale to say a woman is grieving at the same time as faking an abduction which has been decided upon in a very short time indeed. The logistics required in the clean up, the removal and temporary storage of the body and the decisions to be taken as to how the child was 'abducted' would take up considerable time and effort.

If Gerry deleted his calls, he could just as easily deleted Kate's as well. I have to point out that Kate won't have been deleting any calls while phoning her family and friends anyway :)

Kate's account of her conversation with Mrs. Fenn is clearly fictional, and only shows that Kate can be especially vindictive towards people who cannot reply because they have passed away.

The clean up, removal, temporary storage and other actions can have been handled by others, mainly Gerry. There is no evidence that Kate wasn't grieving that night.

What makes me really certain? Kate is a poor actress. I have never seen an interview where she has managed to show real emotion, not the emotions of a mother who wants her child back. This is a woman who did her grieving a long while ago.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Mariita on 28.03.13 20:21

I don't think it matters who actually deleted the calls, the main thing here is that those calls probably would have indicated that something 'was going on' pre May 3d, earlier in the week. Some kind of contacts that had been hard to explain if discovered by someone 'outside'.
More things would have gone wrong, IMO, if it was all set up within less than an hour that Thursday evening...Even if you plan something in detail, it is hard to cover every aspect of the 'what if this or what if that', surprises do come along the way which need to be handled with.
All I've seen from the first acute time after they announced their daughter was missing, is a behaviour that looks like they are unsure of whether all gaps have been filled...is the story watertight? If not, how do we quickly make it so without raising suspicions?
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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Casey5 on 28.03.13 20:24

suzyjohnson wrote:' ........ Why not engineer better
evidence of the shutters being 'jemmied open'?

Maybe Gerry tried to do just that, there was a report early on that Jez Wilkins had seen Gerry "fiddling" with the shutters as he walked down the street with his baby. I saw this report but it's gone now but was much talked about at the time.
If Gerry was attempting to break the shutters but was prevented from doing so by Jez's appearance then he would have had to abandon his mission. He couldn't have tried earlier as the "broken shutters" may have been seen by anyone passing by on their way to dinner or to check on their kids and the alarm raised too soon.
God knows why they persisted in the story as if it had occurred though, so easily disproved.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Khalgregar on 28.03.13 20:31

@Mariita wrote:I don't think it matters who actually deleted the calls, the main thing here is that those calls probably would have indicated that something 'was going on' pre May 3d, earlier in the week. Some kind of contacts that had been hard to explain if discovered by someone 'outside'.
More things would have gone wrong, IMO, if it was all set up within less than an hour that Thursday evening...Even if you plan something in detail, it is hard to cover every aspect of the 'what if this or what if that', surprises do come along the way which need to be handled with.
All I've seen from the first acute time after they announced their daughter was missing, is a behaviour that looks like they are unsure of whether all gaps have been filled...is the story watertight? If not, how do we quickly make it so without raising suspicions?

Lots of things seem to have gone wrong. We are here discussing this 6 years later after all.

There may have been suspicious activities during the week, certainly to me anyway. The way the 2nd of May didn't seem to happen at all, for one. However - this does not mean that Madeleine died earlier in the week. There could have been other things going on - Gerry wasn't there to have fun, was he? Four families holidaying together doesn't ring true, and it wasn't the first time. I suspect that there was another reason for the 'holiday', but I have no evidence to indicate it's nature.

But connecting Madeleine's probable death to these events is a stretch. Unless you can show me something to change my mind :)

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Khalgregar on 28.03.13 20:33

@Casey5 wrote:suzyjohnson wrote:' ........ Why not engineer better
evidence of the shutters being 'jemmied open'?

Maybe Gerry tried to do just that, there was a report early on that Jez Wilkins had seen Gerry "fiddling" with the shutters as he walked down the street with his baby. I saw this report but it's gone now but was much talked about at the time.
If Gerry was attempting to break the shutters but was prevented from doing so by Jez's appearance then he would have had to abandon his mission. He couldn't have tried earlier as the "broken shutters" may have been seen by anyone passing by on their way to dinner or to check on their kids and the alarm raised too soon.
God knows why they persisted in the story as if it had occurred though, so easily disproved.

I would have thought that this would be the kind of thing Jez would have mentioned during his multiple statements. I've not seen this report, only talk of it on forums :) Anybody have a link to it?

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Khalgregar on 28.03.13 20:45

@Casey5 wrote:If Gerry was attempting to break the shutters but was prevented from doing so by Jez's appearance then he would have had to abandon his mission. He couldn't have tried earlier as the "broken shutters" may have been seen by anyone passing by on their way to dinner or to check on their kids and the alarm raised too soon.

And anybody in the buildings across the street could have seen him doing it. Surely that would be a very risky thing to do.

If Jez really had seen Gerry doing this, his testimony would have been fatal to the McCanns. It would have stopped any pursuit of the abduction claim there and then. In that case, Jez must have known this. So, we have to believe that Jez has had this toxic testimony all along, and has chosen to not inform the police.

@Casey5 wrote:God knows why they persisted in the story as if it had occurred though, so easily disproved.

Well, perhaps they persisted in the story because they put it together in a rush, under the influence of alcohol, and by the time they were sober it was too late. What is certain is that it was a foolish thing to claim, as it was clearly contradicted by reality. It does not lend any weight to the idea that these people were master planners, quite the opposite.


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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by pennylane on 28.03.13 20:47

@Khalgregar wrote:
@Mariita wrote:I don't think it matters who actually deleted the calls, the main thing here is that those calls probably would have indicated that something 'was going on' pre May 3d, earlier in the week. Some kind of contacts that had been hard to explain if discovered by someone 'outside'.
More things would have gone wrong, IMO, if it was all set up within less than an hour that Thursday evening...Even if you plan something in detail, it is hard to cover every aspect of the 'what if this or what if that', surprises do come along the way which need to be handled with.
All I've seen from the first acute time after they announced their daughter was missing, is a behaviour that looks like they are unsure of whether all gaps have been filled...is the story watertight? If not, how do we quickly make it so without raising suspicions?

Lots of things seem to have gone wrong. We are here discussing this 6 years later after all.

There may have been suspicious activities during the week, certainly to me anyway. The way the 2nd of May didn't seem to happen at all, for one. However - this does not mean that Madeleine died earlier in the week. There could have been other things going on - Gerry wasn't there to have fun, was he? Four families holidaying together doesn't ring true, and it wasn't the first time. I suspect that there was another reason for the 'holiday', but I have no evidence to indicate it's nature.

But connecting Madeleine's probable death to these events is a stretch. Unless you can show me something to change my mind :)

Exacto!

A lot of doctors were out there that week.... perhaps paid for by a pharmaceutical company that would be frowned upon? Or some other reason these doctors and realtors were in the Algarve that had nothing to do with Maddie's sad fate, but which they wish to keep from public knowledge... just saying...

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Khalgregar on 28.03.13 21:29


There are a few things about Wilkins + partner that make me a little suspicious. Mainly, why his instinct to make a documentary didn't kick in. But, for all we know, perhaps it did. He could have been told by the McCanns that his services weren't required, as he would have been outside of their control. The last thing they would have wanted was an independent film-maker recording their every move.

It's Bridget's account that worries me the most:

'I admired them, in a way, for not being paranoid parents'

What on earth are you talking about Bridget? Leaving your 3-year-old daughter alone to be babysitter and fire-warden for your 2-year-old twins is not being paranoid??? I have read this view in the media far too often. It is bullshit. Neither I nor my (future ex-)wife would ever have left our children alone at that age. And definitely not so that we could go for a drink.

'Earlier that day there had been tennis lessons for the children, with some of the parents watching proudly as their girls ran across the court chasing tennis balls. They took photos. Madeleine must have been there, but I couldn't distinguish her from the others. They all looked the same - all blonde, all pink and pretty.'

The part I find suspicious is not the part that is usually quoted. It is the 'they took photos' line. It is a completely unnecessary line. O'Donnell is a writer. She must know one of the first rules of writing 'Omit needless words.' So, these words must serve a purpose. Whatever that purpose, it just so happens that it corroborates one of the only photos that exist (or were given to the police) of Maddy that week. But on second thoughts, does it really corroborate it? O'Donnell makes it clear that she didn't identify Madeleine. 'She must have been there', she says, without actually saying that she was there.

And overall, this is a puff piece for the McCanns. O'Donnell is a writer, and this must be deliberate. The question is - why?

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/bridget-odonnell-my-months-with.html

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by sharonl on 28.03.13 21:37

Extract from Kates statement 6 September 2007

They also kissed Madeleine, who was already lying down. She was under the covers, she thinks, because it was a bit cold. She normally clutched the soft toy and if she wasn’t holding it then it was next to her, on the left. She remained lying down on her left side, with the soft toy and a pink blanket, which she thinks was covering her. The twins were laid down on their backs, covered with open weave blankets. She says that she doesn’t know if the children were in the same positions when they left the apartment.

Extract from Gerry's statement 7 September 2007

Moreover, he says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night. Madeleine was lying down on her left side, completely uncovered, i.e. lying on top of the covers, with the soft toy and blanket, both pink, next to her head; he does not know if they were in the position that can be seen in the photograph attached to the files

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Mariita on 28.03.13 21:44

And with so many things gone wrong, 6 years on they are still enjoying freedom. One would think with all those uncountable 'wronggoings' (inconsistencies) the probability they have absolutely nothing to do with Madeleine´s disappearence is nearby zero. But of course nobody knows, but I have a very hard time believing that 1. the reason for holiday is something 'fishy' and has to be concealed but is not at all connected with whatever happened to Madeleine. 2. In the same period of time something happens to Madeleine, and suddenly that too has to be covered up but it has nothing to do with 'everything else'?
The book is like a bad effort of trying to fill in the gaps and a desperate attempt to correct certain things 'gone wrong' in the beginning...after reading the police files. Kate says something herself about coincidents, ironically.
Very strange (and so sad), everything
P.S Agreed Khalgregar (hope I spelled right...) BridgetO'Donnell's writings seem very strange, her statements are a bit 'too positive' to be credible...
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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Khalgregar on 28.03.13 23:38

@Mariita wrote:And with so many things gone wrong, 6 years on they are still enjoying freedom. One would think with all those uncountable 'wronggoings' (inconsistencies) the probability they have absolutely nothing to do with Madeleine´s disappearence is nearby zero. But of course nobody knows, but I have a very hard time believing that 1. the reason for holiday is something 'fishy' and has to be concealed but is not at all connected with whatever happened to Madeleine. 2. In the same period of time something happens to Madeleine, and suddenly that too has to be covered up but it has nothing to do with 'everything else'?
The book is like a bad effort of trying to fill in the gaps and a desperate attempt to correct certain things 'gone wrong' in the beginning...after reading the police files. Kate says something herself about coincidents, ironically.
Very strange (and so sad), everything
P.S Agreed Khalgregar (hope I spelled right...) BridgetO'Donnell's writings seem very strange, her statements are a bit 'too positive' to be credible...

Yeah you spelled it right, just don't try to say it out loud ;-)

If we go by Occam's Razor, the simplest answer is most likely the truth. So, I can see why you have difficulty believing that the suspicious 'holiday' is unconnected to the disappearance of MBM. However, remember this: there may be lots of so-called holidays that are in reality a cover for other goings-on, and these may be happening all the time. Lots. We are possibly dealing with one of these that went horribly wrong.

But Occam's Razor also leads me to these conclusions:

- Multiple accounts of Kate's anguish and inactivity, some from independent witnesses, indicate real emotion that was not present prior to the evening of 3rd May; therefore, something tragic occurred on the 3rd May to trigger it;
- 'Not what you would call physically searching for Madeleine', fits a mother suffering real grief; it does not fit somebody pretending to grieve;
- Kate is infamous for her unemotional interviews, indeed, seems unable to produce emotion on demand, even though this shows her in a very bad light;
- If the evening had been planned and staged well in advance, it makes no sense that Kate did not 'physically' search - she leaves herself wide open to criticism and doubt;
- If the evening had been planned and staged well in advance, the participants would have made the crime scene look more genuine, and got their stories straight.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by tigger on 29.03.13 6:52

Khalgregor wrote:
The clean up, removal, temporary storage and other actions can have been handled by others, mainly Gerry. Which others? There was very little time and running over to your friends with a request to help clean up your apartment, whilst you still had the body to transport and hide strikes me as unlikely.
There is no evidence that Kate wasn't grieving that night. That doesn't translate to 'Kate was grieving' allegedly observed emotions are not evidence.

and in another post: [..]
If we go by Occam's Razor, the simplest answer is most likely the truth.Indeed and the simplest answer isn't abduction, neither is the simplest answer a faked abduction. So, I can see why you have difficulty believing that the suspicious 'holiday' is unconnected to the disappearance of MBM. However, remember this: there may be lots of so-called holidays that are in reality a cover for other goings-on, and these may be happening all the time. ???? Lots. We are possibly dealing with one of these that went horribly wrong.

But Occam's Razor also leads me to these conclusions:

- Multiple accounts of Kate's anguish and inactivity, some from independent witnesses, indicate real emotion that was not present prior to the evening of 3rd May; therefore, something tragic occurred on the 3rd May to trigger it;
- 'Not what you would call physically searching for Madeleine', fits a mother suffering real grief; it does not fit somebody pretending to grieve;
- Kate is infamous for her unemotional interviews, indeed, seems unable to produce emotion on demand, even though this shows her in a very bad light;
Emotions observed and transmitted second-hand are not evidence.
- If the evening had been planned and staged well in advance, it makes no sense that Kate did not 'physically' search - she leaves herself wide open to criticism and doubt;
- If the evening had been planned and staged well in advance, the participants would have made the crime scene look more genuine, and got their stories straight. I would love to read your timeline of the event.
Unquote

Khalgregor, I'd be interested to see how you can fit in so many crucial actions in the time given. Why exactly would it be imperative to set up a fake abduction? A 'disappearance' - having accidentally left the patio door open, child wanders out, never seen again - strikes me as the first option.
To make these decisions, the clean up - , the forensic awareness of the mobile calls, persuading seven friends to back up your story.
Not to mention getting photographs out to the public, neither of which were from the holiday but from previous years.
I hope you can find time to give me your timeline for the evening. Say as from 8.30.

Re the grieving parents:
This is what Catriona Baker wrote 9 days after 3/5:
The young nanny, described as 'fun and vivacious', has been deeply affected by Madeleine's disappearance, telling friends of nights without sleep and a complete loss of appetite.
Writing to one concerned friend nine days after Madeleine disappeared, she admitted: 'I was her nanny, so it's been tough for me, you wouldn't recognise me.
'It's hit me so hard I've hardly slept or eaten. My mum came to see me, but transferring me to "San Ag" has put me back at stage one as I am so stressed again.
'Love you loads, thanks for writing. I'm sorry I haven't been in touch, I have not been out of the house much.'
unquote.


The photograph of the McCanns smiling broadly on leaving the church. Which was exactly the same day the young woman above wrote of her agony!



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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Guest on 29.03.13 9:09

Mind you Tigger, Kate did make an effort in her novel to describe what it was really like on that day. Photos can be so deceptive as we know!!

Sorry to put anyone off their breakfast but it was that immortal quote about the unbearableness of not being able to love and please her.
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