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Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Snifferdog on 30.03.13 11:12

Mmm Portia interesting spelling mistake re. Pain. Well spotted! I also believe she was not in apt 5a on 3rd May.
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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Nina on 30.03.13 11:33

Nah, she wasn't afraid of Pain sorry Payne she liked him to pretend to be a monster and chase her.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by aquila on 30.03.13 11:44

A snippet from Fiona Payne's rogatory interview (source: the Maddie Case Files)

1485
“So having got back from your search around the corner, did you go then straight into the McCANN’s?”

Reply
“Yeah”.

1485
“What did you see when you walked in, describe it?”

Reply
“At
that point, Gerry, I dont think was in the apartment, it was mainly
Kate. And Kate was just, huh, utter disbelief and I had disbelief,
thinking she’s got to be here, you know, what, how can this have
happened. And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she’d
found when she’d gone back, which was that the, she’d found the window
open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that
somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that’s what she was telling me
and I was like ‘They can’t have done. They can’t have done this’, you
know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked
in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the
curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had
already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into
the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine,
erm, Madeleine’s bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of
neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they
didn’t stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and
moving around the room, they didn’t stir at all, which that was, that
was odd. Erm,
we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have
got out, and I’ve already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and
I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the
shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn’t a likely thing,
but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine
was going to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in
that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn’t actually
open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house
and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove
whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether
Madeleine could have opened it from the inside”.

00.50.31
1485
“And?”

Reply
“I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn’t what had happened and what could have happened”.

1485
“So what did you do, walk out of the apartment and round the other side then?”

Reply
“No, I”.

1485
“Or did you do it from the inside?”

Reply
“I did it from, I’m talking about, so, again, the back or the front, I did it from the back, which is where their balcony was”.

1485
“Yeah, yeah”.

Reply
“Erm, I dont know”.

1485
“How was Kate?”

Reply
“Awful, erm, I’ve never seen such horrible raw emotion in my life and I’ve seen
a lot of it in my job. Erm, tut, she, she was just bereft, she didn’t
know what to do, she was just panicking, extremely frightened, extremely
frightened for Madeleine and, erm, was wondering where she was or what
was happening to her. And the helplessness, erm, of not being able to do
anything, what should she be doing, what could they do. Erm, she was
angry, really angry, tut, punching walls, kicking walls, she was covered
in bruises the next day, because she just didn’t know what, what else
to do. She was angry at herself, she kept saying ‘I’ve let her down.
We’ve let her down Gerry’, you know, ‘We should have been here’. Erm,
tut, she was praying a lot. Erm, I just dont think she knew what to do,
what to do. And she was just howling. It was just, just awful. I think
as time went on it just seemed a massive delay from when we said to Matt
to phone the Police, erm, that hour, it was an hour, it just seemed
like an eternity, where nothing was happening
, tut. Erm, you know, we’re
all intelligent people, we were all trying to think what we should be
doing and, you know, what’s going to make a difference. And Kate’s
ringing, Gerry’s ringing anybody under the sun, family, they just dont,
they honestly just didn’t know what to do. So there was a lot of,
Gerry’s in and out, I mean, they were just sobbing, going between
sobbing and then feeling helpless and then ringing people and this
frantic activity. Kate was desperate to have a Priest, which, you know,
people find weird, but I think that was just her way of thinking ‘At
least I can pray for Madeleine’ and her way of feeling that she was
doing something. Erm, tut, but she wasn’t functioning”.

00.53.22
1485
“Did the twins wake up at all?”

Reply
“They didn’t. They didn’t”.

1485
“In the aftermath?”

Reply
“No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept
putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was
very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay,
I mean, they were fine, they didn’t, they were asleep, but at the time
it did seem weird,
I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came
they turned the lights on
, there was loads of noise, obviously from the
moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the
shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn’t, you know,
so much as blink”.


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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by aiyoyo on 30.03.13 12:33


tut. Erm, you know, we’re
all intelligent people, we were all trying to think what we should be
doing and, you know, what’s going to make a difference. And Kate’s
ringing, Gerry’s ringing anybody under the sun, family, they just don’t,
they honestly just didn’t know what to do. So there was a lot of,
Gerry’s in and out, I mean, they were just sobbing, going between
sobbing and then feeling helpless and then ringing people and this
frantic activity. Kate was desperate to have a Priest, which, you know,
people find weird, but I think that was just her way of thinking ‘At
least I can pray for Madeleine’ and her way of feeling that she was
doing something. Erm, tut, but she wasn’t functioning”.

According to fione payne's statement they were smart people who overthink rather than react to the situation in a normal way ie call the police immediately and then while waiting start searching. No, couldn't function kate and gerry who didnt know what to do according to fiona yet was in clarity of mind to ring family, press, and "anyone under the sun" (except the Police). That's hardly an apt describing of people who couldn't function.

There are just so many nuggets in their statements .......
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Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by suzyjohnson on 30.03.13 12:47

Aiyoyo - there is another possibility, I think, with regard to their statements. Here are their statements again, in this case I have added brackets to indicate where the KM has been asked to confirm what she was were saying by the police -

Kate (6 September 2007) They also kissed Madeleine who was already lying down. (She was under the covers, she thinks, because it was a bit cold). She normally clutched the soft toy (and if she wasn’t holding it) then it was next to her, on the left. She remained lying down on her left side, with the soft toy and a pink blanket (which she thinks was covering her) The twins were laid down on their backs, covered with open weave blankets. She says that she doesn’t know if the children were in the same positions when they left the apartment.

Gerry (7 September 2007) - Moreover, he says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night. Madeleine was lying down on her left side, completely uncovered, (i.e. lying on top of the covers) with the soft toy and blanket, both pink, next to her head (he does not know if they were in the position that can be seen in the photograph attached to the files)

If it were the case that the last time they both saw Madeleine was when she had died, then both accounts above could be the truth, some elements of both accounts are the same. The differences are where the police have asked them to confirm or clarify. Nobody would think to cover a dead child because they were cold for example (therefore it is not a relevant part of that memory)

Also, Nina, I think KM states the twins were lying on their backs as a habit because that is how the govt advises people to put their babies to sleep, and, at this stage she wants the police to see what a faultless parent she is (GM was trying to do the same thing by trying not to tell the police he left the patio door open in his first statement) But babies do move around a lot at night and it isn't unusual at all for them to sleep on their fronts with their legs underneath them, so I don't read anything into that.


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Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by suzyjohnson on 30.03.13 12:52

Sorry, I meant to reply to Portia (see above) about the twins sleeping on their fronts

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Guest on 30.03.13 13:31

@Khalgregar wrote:
Jean wrote:I certainly can't envisage putting a child to bed in this way, lying on top of the covers. I'm having to think back many years, mind you!

The police photo of what was claimed to be Madeleine's bed shows that it appeared not to have been slept in and so in my opinion the only way to explain that was by saying that she was on top of the covers.

Personally I do not believe that she was ever there at all on that evening.

The problem that I have with the idea that Maddy died before the 3rd - if that is your view Jean, don't let me put words in your mouth! - is that the whole 'cover story' seems rushed and full of errors. For example, why not ruffle the bed up to make it look like Maddy had slept in it? Why not engineer better evidence of the shutters being 'jemmied open'? My belief - that Maddy probably died on the evening of the 3rd - is formed mainly from two things. Firstly, that Kate's behaviour seemed to match that of a mother who had just lost her child, hysterical, grieving, unable to act. Secondly, if they had had time to plan the evening's events, they did it very badly, giving us 'loons' so much to doubt it. No, to me the whole affair looked like it was put together in a rush, in a half an hour. By the time the police arrived, they didn't have the opportunity to arrange the 'crime scene' better.

I'm between two minds, on the face of it she did act like a mother who had just witnessed a tragedy and her grief seemed real. And the "crime scene" seemed hastily constructed implying it had been done quickly.

But on the other hand there are questions like the flaws in the creche records, the deleted calls, the last photo and their activities that day. I sometimes wonder if the beach outing was the real plan and something went wrong.
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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by aiyoyo on 30.03.13 14:54

May 3rd 5.30 pm :
Creche record shows Kate signed out Maddie from the Creche at that time.
In her statement, Kate said she returns at 5.30 pm after a run at the beach to find Gerry had already collected the kids and having snacks with them at the Tapas.

So one of the above two must be wrong. She cant have been in two places at the same time.
Unless a Nanny has personally handed over Maddie at 5.30pm on that day to Kate, seen Kate signed the register and can testify to that, then hypothetically speaking the creche record is a useless piece of document. Kate could have gone at any time to sign it, written down any time she wanted, and the not too serious about their job staff working in a holiday job were probably not paying any attention to the creche recording.
Ideally the staff should have been the ones keeping and signing the record book, and not left it out in the open for all and sundry to record as they like, when they like. I bet the Nannies did not bother to check the record book diligently if at all. One child more or one child less in low season does not really matter to them; and they wont be concerned if a child does not show up for a day after all it is a holiday resort and the children are there on holiday.



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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by tigger on 30.03.13 15:03

@Khalgregar wrote:
@tigger wrote:I too, have read the files. I know the photographs were printed from an USB stick by Anne Tierney - this once again, is not an answer to the following question:

The two photographs selected to help find the girl were both printed from an USB key (they had no laptops with them) it has never been contested by TM that neither photograph was from the holiday.
My point was why not use a recent photo which would have been on the camera - a recent photograph would certainly give a better chance of finding her.
Certainly in just a few hours in the theory you propose, I'd have thought the camera would be one's first thought, not: by great good luck we have these two very appealing photographs on an USB key which we took with us for no reason at all since we have no laptop with us....
unquote
At no point did I argue that there was NO USB stick. I totally, totally believe there was a USB stick and it was used. I just wondered why older photographs and why not from the camera?

You appear to have deleted this post for some reason :) Here it is, in case you deleted it accidentally ;-)

@Kahlgregor:I didn't realise you copied my post for no other reason that it wouldn't get lost. I deleted this post on purpose within a minute or two of posting it, having decided to post the relevant interview clips with reference instead. (page 6 onwards) and realising I'd misinterpreted your previous post. You could not have been replying to this post otherwise you too, would have had to delete it. I find that a little curious.

You must have copied it before I deleted it. As you will see I was trying to keep to the topic, the timeline of the evening which you were going to post.

I wrote: (from page 6)
I hope you can find time to give me your timeline for the evening. Say as from 8.30.

Kahlgregor wrote:
I will put one together for you, and it will be based on the evidence with as little conjecture as possible.
unquote.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Khalgregar on 30.03.13 23:23

@tigger wrote:
@Khalgregar wrote:
@tigger wrote:I too, have read the files. I know the photographs were printed from an USB stick by Anne Tierney - this once again, is not an answer to the following question:

The two photographs selected to help find the girl were both printed from an USB key (they had no laptops with them) it has never been contested by TM that neither photograph was from the holiday.
My point was why not use a recent photo which would have been on the camera - a recent photograph would certainly give a better chance of finding her.
Certainly in just a few hours in the theory you propose, I'd have thought the camera would be one's first thought, not: by great good luck we have these two very appealing photographs on an USB key which we took with us for no reason at all since we have no laptop with us....
unquote
At no point did I argue that there was NO USB stick. I totally, totally believe there was a USB stick and it was used. I just wondered why older photographs and why not from the camera?

You appear to have deleted this post for some reason :) Here it is, in case you deleted it accidentally ;-)

@Kahlgregor:I didn't realise you copied my post for no other reason that it wouldn't get lost. I deleted this post on purpose within a minute or two of posting it, having decided to post the relevant interview clips with reference instead. (page 6 onwards) and realising I'd misinterpreted your previous post. You could not have been replying to this post otherwise you too, would have had to delete it. I find that a little curious.

You must have copied it before I deleted it. As you will see I was trying to keep to the topic, the timeline of the evening which you were going to post.

I wrote: (from page 6)
I hope you can find time to give me your timeline for the evening. Say as from 8.30.

Kahlgregor wrote:
I will put one together for you, and it will be based on the evidence with as little conjecture as possible.
unquote.

You are incorrect on the first point. Check my post immediately before the one that you have quoted. I quoted your post there so that I could respond to it, this was before I saw that you had deleted it.

My apologies for not yet satisfying your demand for a timeline. I have been spending this weekend with my children. It's unlikely I'll have much time for the rest of this week, I've booked time off work to spend time with my kids. However, I have made lots of other comments, perhaps you could talk about those a little in the meantime.

Incidentally, my username is spelled 'Khalgregar', not 'Kahlgregor'.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Khalgregar on 30.03.13 23:38

Finn wrote:I'm between two minds, on the face of it she did act like a mother who had just witnessed a tragedy and her grief seemed real. And the "crime scene" seemed hastily constructed implying it had been done quickly.

I'm totally with you on that. And as tigger has correctly pointed out, the cadaver dog alerts make the accidental death on the 3rd May theory very difficult to accept, almost impossible. The simple fact is that Maddie has to have been dead in apartment 5A for at least 90 mins, at least according to the cadaver dog studies that I have read. That would explain the unruffled bed. But this would mean that Maddie must have died before the McCanns left for the Tapas bar. Now I can still see how Kate could feel grief later on, but I cannot account for the lack of emotion earlier during the visit to the Tapas bar, or the visit itself.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Oh come on on 30.03.13 23:52

@Khalgregar wrote:
Finn wrote:I'm between two minds, on the face of it she did act like a mother who had just witnessed a tragedy and her grief seemed real. And the "crime scene" seemed hastily constructed implying it had been done quickly.

I'm totally with you on that. And as tigger has correctly pointed out, the cadaver dog alerts make the accidental death on the 3rd May theory very difficult to accept, almost impossible. The simple fact is that Maddie has to have been dead in apartment 5A for at least 90 mins, at least according to the cadaver dog studies that I have read. That would explain the unruffled bed. But this would mean that Maddie must have died before the McCanns left for the Tapas bar. Now I can still see how Kate could feel grief later on, but I cannot account for the lack of emotion earlier during the visit to the Tapas bar, or the visit itself.

Iwould imagine it's called pretending....and if your future depended upon it I think most people would manage.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by suzyjohnson on 31.03.13 0:09

@Khalgregar wrote:
Finn wrote:I'm between two minds, on the face of it she did act like a mother who had just witnessed a tragedy and her grief seemed real. And the "crime scene" seemed hastily constructed implying it had been done quickly.

I'm totally with you on that. And as tigger has correctly pointed out, the cadaver dog alerts make the accidental death on the 3rd May theory very difficult to accept, almost impossible. The simple fact is that Maddie has to have been dead in apartment 5A for at least 90 mins, at least according to the cadaver dog studies that I have read. That would explain the unruffled bed. But this would mean that Maddie must have died before the McCanns left for the Tapas bar. Now I can still see how Kate could feel grief later on, but I cannot account for the lack of emotion earlier during the visit to the Tapas bar, or the visit itself.

Yes I was thinking the same, maybe she was in shock at the Tapas? But then how do you account for the others at the Tapas restaurant who all appeared to behave normally (none of the staff or guests said otherwise) I have always thought that there would need to be as few people in the know as possible, the others could cover for KM if they all knew, but how could she hide her emotions from all the group if they didn't know?

But, there are problems with an accident happening before 3rd May too - it would be a risky strategy to pretend MM was at kids club if she wasn't. And it's easier to believe that KM, and GM, kept control of their emotions for 2 hrs, than 2 days or 2 weeks.

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Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by suzyjohnson on 31.03.13 0:25

Is it possible that Kate never went to the Tapas on 3rd May? Or could she have just walked round there for 5 mins and then back to the apartment again? She wouldn't have had to hide her emotions if she wasn't there.


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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Guest on 31.03.13 0:26

If you look at the very first video available, you'll see that [IMO] she doesn't look grieving or shocked. She looks afraid, frightened & defensive ... You'll also see that [IMO] there's no love lost between the two of them. I still cringe when I see GM put his arm around her shoulder - as if it's a cue on the paper he's reading from - and withdrawing it straight away again. The same goes when KM is - also reading from a paper - doing a televised "appeal" on television. He pinches her shoulder when she's "losing" her text and at the end of that [IMO] cringeworthy performance, the way he lays his head against her shoulder .... [where's the emoticon for "shudder" ?]
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Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by suzyjohnson on 31.03.13 0:33

Do you mean at that first press conference Chatelaine? I thought she looked like a child standing there, never mind her missing daughter

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/kateandgerry110507.jpg

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Khalgregar on 31.03.13 2:06

@suzyjohnson wrote:Yes I was thinking the same, maybe she was in shock at the Tapas? But then how do you account for the others at the Tapas restaurant who all appeared to behave normally (none of the staff or guests said otherwise) I have always thought that there would need to be as few people in the know as possible, the others could cover for KM if they all knew, but how could she hide her emotions from all the group if they didn't know?

But, there are problems with an accident happening before 3rd May too - it would be a risky strategy to pretend MM was at kids club if she wasn't. And it's easier to believe that KM, and GM, kept control of their emotions for 2 hrs, than 2 days or 2 weeks.

I've put together an image of all the creche records relating to Maddy, Sean and Amelie, so that we can contrast and compare:

http://postimg.org/image/d3o3wnz71/

- On 2nd May, Kate signs Madeleine out as 'K M Healy' for the only time. And the 'y' is written with a great flourish that covers three lines. One wonders if Kate was averse to all things McCann on the afternoon of 2nd May.

- On all the lobster club entries, the guardian doing the signing in seems to have written the child's name. Maddie's last entry looks wrong. Maddie's name appears to have been written by Kate, in a very similar style, but different enough to make me strongly suspect that this was forged to look like Kate's writing.

- The 'i' is missing from 'Madeleine' (or maybe it has merged with the following 'n' - hard to tell)
- Kate's writing is mostly joined up previously, but detached here.
- The 'M' is pointed, and Kate writes rounded Ms, while Gerry writes pointed Ms.
- The room is entered as 'G5A' (as per Gerry) and not '5A' (as per Kate)
- Kate doesn't write the letter 'e' like this anywhere else but here

To me, it looks like a very careful forgery. But that's just my opinion.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Khalgregar on 31.03.13 2:29

Also, I've highlighted in this image several signatures which look forged, and not with confidence:

http://postimg.org/image/60c3molbh/

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by aiyoyo on 31.03.13 7:14

Châtelaine wrote:If you look at the very first video available, you'll see that [IMO] she doesn't look grieving or shocked. She looks afraid, frightened & defensive ... You'll also see that [IMO] there's no love lost between the two of them. I still cringe when I see GM put his arm around her shoulder - as if it's a cue on the paper he's reading from - and withdrawing it straight away again. The same goes when KM is - also reading from a paper - doing a televised "appeal" on television. He pinches her shoulder when she's "losing" her text and at the end of that [IMO] cringeworthy performance, the way he lays his head against her shoulder .... [where's the emoticon for "shudder" ?]

I agree with you.
Kate & Gerry relationship seems far from rosy pre the incident. Post incident it could only have gotten worst if anything, but they'd to appear to stick together for the sake of their lie. Their body language tells a story.

The picture of them at their first conference tells the true story - their faces reflect raw and pure FEAR, not shocked or devastation or even grief, but true unadulterated FEAR not for Maddie, but for themselves. In that pic they looked momentarily vulnerable and frightened to death of what's to come for them, as in pure fear of being found out for their deed. The terror as displayed on their face is not that of an unconscious fear of unknown factors, but that of conscious fear of the known factors they held in their innermost chambers.




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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by aquila on 31.03.13 7:42

@Khalgregar wrote:Also, I've highlighted in this image several signatures which look forged, and not with confidence:

http://postimg.org/image/60c3molbh/

Hi Kahlgragar,

I am always a little concerned about opening links. Would it be possible for you to post your images onto the forum?
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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by plebgate on 31.03.13 8:36

@Khalgregar wrote:
@tigger wrote:

The photograph of the McCanns smiling broadly on leaving the church. Which was exactly the same day the young woman above wrote of her agony!

I see a photograph of Gerry smiling broadly, undoubtedly. I also see Kate smiling politely, not broadly. 'Broadly' is your interpretation of what you see, it isn't what I see, as far as Kate is concerned. Gerry, now I agree with you 100%.


The photo with the red balloons in front of Mrs' face - if you look at her eyes they look "crinkled up" which suggests to me that there is a broad smile.
In the second photo Mrs. is still smiling (whether politely or not). I know I would never have been able to raise any sort of smile, but it has been said before we are all different and the young woman who wrote of her agony certainly seems to be different.

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Guest on 31.03.13 10:36

@suzyjohnson wrote:Do you mean at that first press conference Chatelaine? I thought she looked like a child standing there, never mind her missing daughter

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/kateandgerry110507.jpg
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I mean the May 5 one, SuzyJ. Cannot find the video, but here's a photo:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/zz0505d.jpg&target=tlx_picieu
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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by aiyoyo on 31.03.13 10:42

Châtelaine wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:Do you mean at that first press conference Chatelaine? I thought she looked like a child standing there, never mind her missing daughter

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/kateandgerry110507.jpg
***
I mean the May 5 one, SuzyJ. Cannot find the video, but here's a photo:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/zz0505d.jpg&target=tlx_picieu

Yeap, to me that is the look of pure, raw, unadulterated FEAR, a fear that something bad is about to engulf you because of your deed.
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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by PeterMac on 31.03.13 10:55

This one

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Re: Madeleine sleeping on top of the covers

Post by Guest on 31.03.13 10:57

I wonder why Gerry was holding a torch - perhaps to give the impression he'd been using it to look for Madeleine in the dark?!
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