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Opinions please

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Opinions please

Post by averageperson on 03.03.13 17:45

Thank you Admin for directing me here.
Okay here goes. Please can you enlighten me as to what your knowledge or opinions make of these. These are questions based on the theory I WANT to have. The one with the roses around the door. The one that will help me sleep at night. SO please just humor me
1. Wether we go with the abduction or accident theory how come there was no given proper emotion from the parents. If indeed it was an accident, how could you be so blank and emotionless towards it. How can you be pictured and filmed laughing and be so flippant with the care for your remaining twins. I can only conclude that the Mccans knew where Maddie was and that she was ok, or that they generaly didnt care about what had happened to her either way?

2. Philomena McCanns little slips in an interview have really homed in for me. Quote "No the twins havent been told where she is... Then correction...Well we dont know where she is". Followed by. "Well they think she is with" then corrected by "We have a huge family so"...... This makes me feel that the Aunt is aware where she is due to the double slip. I have always, always zoomed in on that refusal by KM to answer if Maddie lived with any other family members or friends. This points to me that yes she did indeed? If so then why the big secrecy. I can only conclude that a) they didnt want the public knowing they couldnt handle their daughter or b) That the info would lead us to Maddie.
3. When Maddie was taken out of the creche early, could she have been with said co carer? Someone who also was on holiday but not at that resort. Someone whom is the real reason for all the political help? Could this be the person who has Maddie. Could it be a person of such high importance that we are powerless to intervene. Red tape etc etc.
My theory (the one I want to have)
MM was cared by someone else the majority of ther time. Someone of great importance for some reason. Some point in very early May, while left alone, an accident or traumatic event happened. Due to the nature of what might be found the Mc's could not take Maddie to hospital, so they called said co carer. This person, due to their neglect refused to return her and so the abduction story was born. This is why the media knew and had their stories so early on, this is why the Mccans got such powerful help so quickly. This is why they were so emotionless. This is why they could laugh at such a horrendous time. This is why they were helped with their lies.
The blood in the apartment can be explained but not the scent from the other dog.
Maybe this very important person met with the Mc's and it was he that gave the car its scent. Maybe he is someone that may be around dead bodies, thus leaving the scent?

Silly theory I know but if I can get rid of it, I can move forward to Amarels.
Thanks

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PS

Post by averageperson on 03.03.13 17:57

Not sure if there is any merit here but I watched a vid on You tube stating that the pic of MM holding the tennis balls was taken 2 days after she was reported missing. Has anyone else heard this?

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Re: Opinions please

Post by tiny on 03.03.13 18:45

hi,
in your theory you say someone has an alive Madeleine and the mccanns know,so why did the mccanns start a fund and have kept it going for the last 6 years ,knowing that they are committing fraud.
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Re: Opinions please

Post by Guest on 03.03.13 19:09

I don't believe that Madeleine is alive and that the McCanns know exactly what happened to her - this isn't saying that they killed her deliberately.

In these circumstances there is no doubt in my mind that the fund has been fraudulent from Day One.
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Re: Opinions please

Post by Guest on 03.03.13 19:16

I would love to have seen a breakdown of donations May-September 2007, when the fund gathered nearly 2 million ... And I don't mean "send cash in an envelop to Kate & Gerry", I mean bank transfers and checks.

ETA I'm with you Jean. They know what happened, whatever it was and IMO subsequently the "fund" is a fraud.
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Re: Opinions please

Post by averageperson on 03.03.13 19:17

They have committed fraud either way. They have committed a crime either way, so why not get a fund set up for their so called missing daughter and carry it on?

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Re: Opinions please

Post by tiny on 03.03.13 19:21

averageperson wrote:They have committed fraud either way. They have committed a crime either way, so why not get a fund set up for their so called missing daughter and carry it on?

yes they have and i for one will be please when the truth comes out and i have know doubt that it will,and they are jailed.
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Re: Opinions please

Post by Inspectorfrost on 03.03.13 20:06

Chatelaine

See table on this page, May to December 07, by month, scroll down a bit


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id58.html

ETA Hi Averageperson
welcome


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Re: Opinions please

Post by Guest on 03.03.13 20:16

Inspectorfrost wrote:Chatelaine

See table on this page, May to December 07, by month, scroll down a bit


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id58.html

ETA Hi Averageperson


***
I'm still on and off the kitchen, Inspector.
A quick scroll learned me that you might mean that by September 2007 it wasn't 1,900.000 but only 1,090.000 something? I actively joined a forum at that time and I do remember that "we" were astonished at the amount on their website, which didn't seem to change after a while and stuck on 1.9 million.


Will do some research once I've served my inner self ;-)
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Re: Opinions please

Post by Guest on 03.03.13 20:18

As a newbie here I hope it is all right to ask some questions myself?

Although I have my doubts about what really happened, when I discuss this with my friends and venture to suggest I am doubtful about the McCanns story, they say, well they must be telling the truth, how could they keep up the pretence year after year, interview after interview and so on,

Can anyone explain this please, how could they keep a lie going for 5, 6 years?
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Re: Opinions please

Post by Guest on 03.03.13 20:24

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6643-interesting-comparisons-among-savile-armstrong-and-mccs

I think that the clip on the above link will help to explain why sometimes people get away with things for years.
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Re: Opinions please

Post by averageperson on 03.03.13 20:34

Is anyone able to she'd light on the forged pics claim. I know the one of Maddie sitting at the poolside with GM and her sis AM looks strange. What with AM's missing arm?

I just can't get my head around why so many people would be prepared to cover up the death of a child for someone. Their entire extended family seem to be with them, their friends that were there. I cannot think of a single reason as to why I would be prepared to do that for any of my family or friends. However if I thought it in the best interest for a living child that they no longer lived with their parents, then maybe I would. Thats the only thing that stops me from believing she Is dead. Why and how could, all those people lie when it is a very young child involved. There are some places some people will go to save their necks but a collective party doing it and it involving a dead child. A baby almost. no I just can not conceive it. I can only accept that they were duped.

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Re: Opinions please

Post by Inspectorfrost on 03.03.13 21:31

I don't think they would be so cruel to put their parents and family through all the heartache if they knew where she was/with a carer.


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Re: Opinions please

Post by Inspectorfrost on 03.03.13 21:34

Châtelaine wrote:
Inspectorfrost wrote:Chatelaine

See table on this page, May to December 07, by month, scroll down a bit


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id58.html

ETA Hi Averageperson


***
I'm still on and off the kitchen, Inspector.
A quick scroll learned me that you might mean that by September 2007 it wasn't 1,900.000 but only 1,090.000 something? I actively joined a forum at that time and I do remember that "we" were astonished at the amount on their website, which didn't seem to change after a while and stuck on 1.9 million.


Will do some research once I've served my inner self ;-)

I think it was stuck towards the end of the year, wasn't being updated, they then redesigned the site,relaunched it and removed all reference to how much money was coming in. I will check with waybackmachine once its maintenance outage is over.

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Re: Opinions please

Post by Guest on 03.03.13 21:51

@ averageperson
Way back in 2007 I had figured out 11 or 12 [would need to check back and will post if you're interested] possible theories of Madeleine's disappearance. All of that changed dramatically after the EVRD and CSI dogs sniffed around all OC apartments in their block, Murat's house, garden and cars, their rented villa, their rented car and their clothes ...and alerted only to theirs!
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Re: Opinions please

Post by averageperson on 03.03.13 21:54

Inspectorfrost wrote:I don't think they would be so cruel to put their parents and family through all the heartache if they knew where she was/with a carer.

Thats my point, maybe they all know that. I didn't see or hear any of them in any turmoil. I could be wrong but I don't recall any.

@ Chatelaine yes please my lovely.

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Re: Opinions please

Post by Inspectorfrost on 03.03.13 22:04

averageperson wrote:
Inspectorfrost wrote:I don't think they would be so cruel to put their parents and family through all the heartache if they knew where she was/with a carer.

Thats my point, maybe they all know that. I didn't see or hear any of them in any turmoil. I could be wrong but I don't recall any.

@ Chatelaine yes please my lovely.

Kates dad and Gerrys mum were in tears, broken, I wont post the videos, they're too sad to watch. The younger ones were out campaigning and fighting and tbh no one can know in private how they reacted. I personally really dont see so many people knowing some truth and going along with it, the reason would have to be out there. Stranger things have happened, perhaps some terrible accident befell Madeleine and she couldnt live a normal life again? Still, we get back to the dogs time and time again. And the fund.

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Re: Opinions please

Post by averageperson on 03.03.13 22:22

I haven't seen those vids nor would want to if they are sad.

But if the accident theory is correct then K & G are prepared to let them think their granddaughter has been abducted. If they told the truth to them then how could the Grandparents stand by and watch the world look for her, the fund be set up and Amarals life be ruined. It just doesn't seem plausible.

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Re: Opinions please

Post by averageperson on 03.03.13 22:30

Ref the dogs... I do not understand some of the findings. Call me thick but I just don't. if they were clear then surely the McCans would be in prison now. From what I can make out, please correct if I am wrong, they were inconclusive.
SY have said that they believe Maddie could still be alive and living with an abductor. So they either are going down that road anyway or are deliberately putting false info out there to the MC's or they are no closer to the truth either. I would just hate for this to go on and on for years and years and years. We all want to know what has happened to this little girl and I can't bear the thought she is in some pedo ring, still now as I type.

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Re: Opinions please

Post by Inspectorfrost on 03.03.13 22:32

averageperson wrote:I haven't seen those vids nor would want to if they are sad.

But if the accident theory is correct then K & G are prepared to let them think their granddaughter has been abducted. If they told the truth to them then how could the Grandparents stand by and watch the world look for her, the fund be set up and Amarals life be ruined. It just doesn't seem plausible.

I know, it's a case of square pegs in round holes alot of the time. What makes better sense is that K and G hid the facts from everyone, because they had no other choice. Self preservation and control. I don't think the answer to this case is very convoluted at all.

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Re: Opinions please

Post by saltnpepper on 03.03.13 22:40

averageperson wrote:I haven't seen those vids nor would want to if they are sad.

But if the accident theory is correct then K & G are prepared to let them think their granddaughter has been abducted. If they told the truth to them then how could the Grandparents stand by and watch the world look for her, the fund be set up and Amarals life be ruined. It just doesn't seem plausible.

Accident? Madeleine is missing,a cadaver dog(trained specifically for detecting where a dead body has been) alerted to the scent he was trained for TEN!! or ELEVEN!! times all to do with the McCann's but there was no body recovered... i.e hidden,to me that suggests there was no accident
Gerry told Jez Wilkins on wednesday whilst dining in the tapas that he left his children all alone in the apartment allowwing kate & himself to enjoy their me time...who in there right mind,especially doctors would leave there very young children alone & then advertise to a relative stranger with god knows who eavesdropping the neglectful fact...possibly a coincidence that the very next night one of his children was reported to have been taken & a further coincidence that a dog trained to scent a dead human body marked two areas in apartment 5A ? what are your thoughts
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Re: Opinions please

Post by Inspectorfrost on 03.03.13 22:47

averageperson wrote:Ref the dogs... I do not understand some of the findings. Call me thick but I just don't. if they were clear then surely the McCans would be in prison now. From what I can make out, please correct if I am wrong, they were inconclusive.
SY have said that they believe Maddie could still be alive and living with an abductor. So they either are going down that road anyway or are deliberately putting false info out there to the MC's or they are no closer to the truth either. I would just hate for this to go on and on for years and years and years. We all want to know what has happened to this little girl and I can't bear the thought she is in some pedo ring, still now as I type.

The dog alerts are not proof in themselves, they need backing up with forensics, said forensics were inconclusive. They are though justifiable suspicion/intelligence for law enforcement to consider in a case and follow up. You cant send someone to prison on dog alerts only, other evidence is required.

I think A Redwood was only saying what is possible, and giving his personal opinion, vague and non commital IMO overall, I wouldnt expect anything more or definite at such an early stage


ETA the reasons many think the cadaver dog signified a death are many, only one of which is that apart from one rare case, no missing person has turned up after a cadaver dog alerted at the last place they were seen, there are many many other reasons

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Cadaver dogs

Post by PeterMac on 03.03.13 22:56

On the Reliability of Cadaver dogs

Dogs trained to detect the smell of human cadaverine are now routinely used throughout the world. We examine some of the leading cases.

From the outset it is important to note that a dog cannot give “evidence“ in a criminal trial. In most jurisdictions evidence has to be subject to examination and cross examination by learned counsel, and this is clearly impossible. On many occasions the alert by the dog will result in the discovery of remains and it will be that which become the primary evidence. The fact that the dog indicted where to look becomes a side issue, of no particular importance.

Here we look at some occasions when the dog alerts, but no significant physical evidence can be found at the time. The best that can be achieved in these circumstances is that the handler of the animal gives evidence of the dog’s reactions, often with video confirmation, and can then be cross examined on his interpretation of the animal’s behaviour.

(I shall refer to the cases by the name of the deceased or missing person, rather than by the Trial reference, because of the ways in which these differ across jurisdictions)

1 The case with a legal significance may not yet have been fully appreciated, is that of Jeanette Zapata. in Dane Country, USA. In 1976 she served her husband Eugene Zapata with divorce papers. She went missing shortly afterwards. 29 years later dogs alerted in the basement of the family home, and in several other places where the family had lived over the intervening time. At trial his lawyer persuaded the judge that the dog’s finding could not be admitted, since the places in which they had alerted indicated that he had carried the body round to everywhere he had lived, and it was suggested that this was preposterous The jury failed to reach a verdict. Before his retrial however, he confessed, and crucially confirmed that he had in fact transported the body round before disposing of it. The dogs had been absolutely accurate. No body has been found.

2 The recent case of Bianca Jones, a 2 year old girl murdered by her father D’Andre Lane in Detroit USA, with the added details of an alleged abduction, was an occasion when Mr Martin Grime, a British retired police officer, was working for the FBI. His evidence of the alerts by his dog was admitted to show that Bianca was dead whilst in the back of the car, and not taken by armed men as was being alleged. Lane was convicted, though no body has ever been found.

3 The trial of Adrian Prout, in 2010, for the murder of Kate Prout, his wife, in the UK, was notable again for a verdict of guilty, despite no body having been found. Dogs had indicted the presence of a body in the house, but nothing had been found. Some time after his conviction Prout confessed, and indicted the location of the body, confirming that the dogs had been absolutely accurate in their findings.


4 In the murder of Susan Pilley in Edinburgh, by her colleague David Gilroy, in 2010, the court heard that the dogs had alerted in the office basement garage and in two areas of the boot of Gilroy’s car, even though this had been cleaned recently with fluid or air freshener. The defence failed to convince the jury that the absence of physical evidence entitled his client to acquittal. No body has been found. He was convicted.

5 Cori Baker from Oklahoma was murdered by her sister’s boyfriend Marquis Bulloch, in 2007. He changed his story several times whilst being investigated, and the dogs, partly funded by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, were brought into search a large area after a skull had been found. They alerted in several places. No other physical evidence was discovered. He was convicted

6 The case of Guadeloupe Montano from Kane County, USA, is still pending. It is alleged that she was murdered by her husband Aurelio Montano in 1990. It may be the first time that the dog’s alerts have been used as evidence in that State. They indicate that the body lay in one position and was then moved to another. The trial is due in December 2012. No body has been found.

7 The case of Amir Jennings, allegedly killed by her mother Zinah Jennings in 2011, involves a mother who reported her son missing. Dogs have searched the house and the car, and the trial for lying to the police about what happened is pending. No body has been found.

8 The trial of Albert Fine, the partner of Catherine Hoholski, from Lorain USA, is also pending. In this case the body was found within 60 seconds of the dog being deployed, and it was then used to identify other locations relevant to the prosecution case.

9 The alleged abduction of Isabel Mercedes Celis has been called into question by the findings of two dogs, one a cadaver dog, in the family home. The findings were said to be “significant”, the house is being treated as a crime scene and the matter is still under investigation. No body has been found.

10 The disappearance of 6 year old Etan Patz in New York 33 years ago, has already shown the almost unbelievable feats of which cadaver dogs are capable. In this case pads of absorbent material were left for a time on the concrete floor of the basement and then presented to the dogs for testing. As a result the concrete floor was then ripped up. The handler Englebert said. "We as human beings never lose our scent. If [a body] had been there for a while, that scent would still be there," she said, indicating that even if investigators do not find remains in the basement, it is possible human remains may have once been there before being moved.” The investigation has also used ground penetrating radar. The trial of Pedro Hernandez, who has admitted kidnapping and murder, is pending.

11 The parents of Lisa Irwin, from Kansas City, also allege that she must have been abducted in the middle of the night. The mother told Police she did not search, “because she was afraid of what she might find”. Disturbed earth was found behind the house, and the dog alerted in the parent’s bedroom. As a result a full search warrant was granted, and the police say they want to talk to the parents Jeremy Irwin and Deborah Bradley, one to one.

12 The cold case of 14 year old Melanie Melanson, from Massachusetts USA, who disappeared 20 years ago, has been given fresh impetus through the findings of a cadaver dog which alerted in an area targeted following a tip off to Police.

13 Another mother, Shakara Dickens, of Memphis USA, reported in 2010 that she had given up her daughter Lauryn Dickens for adoption, but the various stories turned out to be false. A dog identified cadaver odour in the house and in the boot of the car, and despite defence arguments, she was found guilty of Murder. No body has been found.

14 The infamous case of Caylee Anthony, whose mother Casey Anthony was accused of murdering her in Orlando USA, in 2011, was also notable in that the evidence of the cadaver dog handler was admitted, even though no body was found. The dog alerted in the boot of the car, and it was alleged that the mother had then dumped the body. The evidence was highly detailed, with full description of the system of ‘final trained alert’ by the dog showing an exact position, distinguished from a more general interest. In the event Anthony was not found guilty of the murder, but was convicted of several less offences. There are moves to have the case reopened at Federal level. No body has been found.

15 In the UK, the case of Kirsi Gifford-Hull, in Winchester in 2005, is of interest since although the body was discovered by a man walking a dog, and the offender Mike Gifford-Hull had made a public appeal at a press conference for his wife to return, cadaver dogs had already alerted some weeks earlier in the house and in his car during the initial search for a “missing person”. After the trial he told officers that when he saw the dogs alerting in the car he had contemplated making a full admission. He was convicted. After the trial Judge Guy Boney QC ”. . .added that the police inquiry was so superior it could be matched with that of any other police force in the world.”

Many organisations exist to provide the services of cadaver dogs. Many are staffed by retired specialist Police officers. Their services are not cheap. It was widely reported, not entirely tongue in cheek, that Eddie, the cadaver dog operated by Mr Martin Grime, earned more than the Chief Constable. The Cadaver Dog Team of Global Rescue Services, and Dog Detectives operate in this sphere. Independent trainers include Search Dogs UK (www.searchdogsuk.co.uk ) All operate within the UK

Almost every state of the US has its own team operating in this way, and the FBI run training programmes specifically targeted at Cadaver and Blood detecting dogs.

The whole area of research is subject to rigourous academic study, as so much in the legal world hinges on the success or otherwise of the dogs, and the trust placed by courts on their reported findings.
Academic Papers

16 Cadaver dogs– a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares.
Abstract
Cadaver dogs are known as valuable forensic tools in crime scene investigations. Scientific research attempting to verify their value is largely lacking, specifically for scents associated with the early postmortem interval. The aim of our investigation was the comparative evaluation of the reliability, accuracy, and specificity of three cadaver dogs belonging to the Hamburg State Police in the detection of scents during the early postmortem interval.
MATERIAL AND METHODS:
Carpet squares were used as an odor transporting media after they had been contaminated with the scent of two recently deceased bodies (PMI<3h). The contamination occurred for 2 min as well as 10 min without any direct contact between the carpet and the corpse. Comparative searches by the dogs were performed over a time period of 65 days (10 min contamination) and 35 days (2 min contamination).
RESULTS:
The results of this study indicate that the well-trained cadaver dog is an outstanding tool for crime scene investigation displaying excellent sensitivity (75-100), specificity (91-100), and having a positive predictive value (90-100), negative predictive value (90-100) as well as accuracy (92-100).

17 Cadaver dog and handler team capabilities in the recovery of buried human remains in the southeastern United States
Abstract
The detection of human remains that have been deliberately buried to escape detection is a problem for law enforcement. Sometimes the cadaver dog and handler teams are successful, while other times law enforcement and cadaver dog teams are frustrated in their search. Five field trials tested the ability of four cadaver dog and handler teams to detect buried human remains. Human and animal remains were buried in various forested areas during the summer months near Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The remains ranged in decomposition from fresh to skeletonized. Cadaver dogs detected with varying success: buried human remains at different stages of decomposition, buried human remains at different depths, and buried decomposed human and animal remains. The results from these trials showed that some cadaver dogs were able to locate skeletonized remains buried at a significant depth. Fresh and skeletonized remains were found equally by the cadaver dogs along with some caveats. Dog handlers affected the reliability of the cadaver dog results. Observations and videotape of the cadaver dogs during field trials showed that they were reliable in finding buried human remains.

18 The use of cadaver dogs in locating scattered, scavenged human remains: preliminary field test results.
Abstract
Specially trained air scent detection canines (Canis familiaris) are commonly used by law enforcement to detect narcotics, explosives or contraband, and by fire investigators to detect the presence of accelerants. Dogs are also used by police, military, and civilian groups to locate lost or missing persons, as well as victims of natural or mass disasters. A further subspecialty is "cadaver" searching, or the use of canines to locate buried or concealed human remains. Recent forensic investigations in central Alberta demonstrated that the use of cadaver dogs could be expanded to include locating partial, scattered human remains dispersed by repeated animal scavenging. Eight dog-and-handler teams participated in a two-month training program using human and animal remains in various stages of decay as scent sources. Ten blind field tests were then conducted which simulated actual search conditions. Recovery rates ranged between 57% and 100%, indicating that properly trained cadaver dogs can make significant contributions in the location and recovery of scattered human remains.


19 The suggestion that Cadaver dogs are “incredibly unreliable” is thus refuted.

References and links

These are only some of the many available on the net. Searching on the name of the deceased will usually give many pages of similar articles.

1 http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com.es/2008/02/zapata-admits-killing-wife-gets-5-years.html
http://www.caninesearchsolutions.org/wisconsin_v._zapata.pdf

2 http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/detroit/jury-reaches-verdict-in-dandre-lane-murder-tria#ixzz29I3h1A3T

3 http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Cadaver-dog-sniffed-death-Prout-home/story-11860269-detail/story.html

4 http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/news/home-news/david-gilroy-guilty-of-suzanne-pilley-murder.1331810187

5 http://www.tulsapeople.com/Tulsa-People/October-2010/Cold-case/index.php?cparticle=4&siarticle=3

6 http://beaconnews.suntimes.com/news/15641401-418/cadaver-dog-evidence-allowed-in-body-less-murder-case.html

7 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2082947/Cadaver-dogs-search-missing-toddler-police-execute-warrants-jailed-mothers-car-home.html

8 http://www.news-herald.com/articles/2012/08/19/news/nh5846124.txt?viewmode=2

9 http://childabuseconsulting.blogspot.com.es/2012/05/those-darn-cadaver-dogs.html

10 http://www.christianpost.com/news/etan-patz-case-cadaver-dogs-able-to-pick-up-scent-in-basement-73568/#vZyIRl6x8dEmovY7.99

11 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2051903/Lisa-Irwin-missing-Cadaver-police-dog-smells-scent-dead-body-parents-bedroom.html

12 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2181390/Breakthrough-cold-case-Cadaver-dogs-zero-place-hunt-girl-vanished-23-years-ago.html

13 http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2012/mar/23/memphis-mother-found-guilty-presumed-dea/

14 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2000636/Casey-Anthony-trial-continues-Cadaver-dog-handler-tells-court-overwhelmed-smell-death-trunk-Anthonys-car.html

15 http://www.standard.co.uk/news/wealthy-businessman-strangled-wife-after-she-uncovered-three-affairs-7086770.html

http://www.thisishampshire.net/news/1011044.print/

Academic links and general references

http://www.caninesearchsolutions.org/wisconsin_v._zapata.pdf

http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/cadaver-dogs

16 "Cadaver dogs– a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares." Oesterhelweg L, Kröber S, Rottmann K, Willhöft J, Braun C, Thies N, Püschel K, Silkenath J, Gehl A.
Institute of Legal Medicine, University Medical Center Hamburg, Germany. 
Forensic Sci Int. 2008 Jan 15;174(1):35-9

17 Cadaver dog and handler team capabilities in the recovery of buried human remains in the southeastern United States.
Lasseter AE, Jacobi KP, Farley R, Hensel L.
Department of Anthropology, University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, AL 35487- 0210, USA.
J Forensic Sci. 2003 May;48(3):617-21.

18 The use of cadaver dogs in locating scattered, scavenged human remains: preliminary field test results.
Komar D.
Department of Anthropology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada.
J Forensic Sci. 1999 Mar;44(2):405-8.

“Incredibly Unreliable”

19 a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LJo9fGXQMI
Interview with Sandra Felgueiras,
recorded 3 Nov. 2009, broadcast 5 Nov. 2009

5:39 GM “I can tell you that we’ve also looked at evidence about cadaver dogs and they’re incredibly unreliable”.
SF “Unreliable ?
GM: “Cadaver dogs, Yes”

19.b http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DAYS_851_to_1050.htm
Gerry’s blog Day 988 15/1/2010
“The use of dogs had proved to be problematic and unreliable in previous cases” . . . “To suggest or use the dogs’ reactions as evidence is simply wrong and abusive”
Kate McCann


19.c from “Madeleine” by Kate McCann, May 2011, Bantam Press,

p. 218/9
When he arrived, Ricardo explained this ‘evidence’ a little further. His tone was sombre as he told us about the two springer spaniels that had been brought out to Portugal by the British police to assist in the search. Keela, who could alert her handler to the tiniest trace of blood, had done so in apartment 5A. Eddie, a victim-recovery or ‘cadaver’ dog, trained to detect human remains, had indicated that somebody had died there.

p.219
Did they really believe that a dog could smell the ‘odour of death’ three months later from a body that had been removed so swiftly? They were adding two and two and coming up with ten. [1]

p. 253
As we now know, the chemicals believed to create the ‘odour of death’, putrescence and cadaverine, last no longer than thirty days. There were no decaying body parts for the dog to find. It was simply wrong. [2]

p. 267
By this time Gerry was deep into his next task: researching the validity of responses produced by blood and cadaver dogs. Along the way he spoke to several experts, and in the coming weeks we would learn a lot about the subject. This is what one US lawyer had to say about the objectivity and success rate of this procedure:
  The most critical question relating to the use of the dog alerts as evidence is how likely is the dog’s alert to be correct. In this regard, the only testing of these handler and dog teams recorded an abysmal performance. Here ‘the basis’ for the possible past presence of human remains is that there is a 20 or 40 per cent chance that a dog’s ‘alert’ was correct. In other words, with respect to residual odour, the dog-handler teams performed significantly worse than if the handlers had simply flipped a coin to speculate as to the presence of residual odour at each location.
State of Wisconsin v. Zapata, 2006 CF 1996 – defendant supplemental memorandum [3]

Author’s observations

1 A Cadaver dog can indeed smell the “odour of death” years, and even decades and centuries later. This statement is simply factually inaccurate. (v.s.)

2 The chemicals do last longer than thirty days. This statement is simply factually inaccurate. (v.s.)

3 This was material submited by the defendant at first instance. It is not precedent, or case law. This case its notable for the change of plea before the second trial and the admission by the accused that the dog had been absiolutely accurate in all its alerts, showing the various places the body had been stored over a period of three decades. ( Zapata, v.s)

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PeterMac
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Re: Opinions please

Post by saltnpepper on 03.03.13 22:56

Inspectorfrost wrote:
averageperson wrote:Ref the dogs... I do not understand some of the findings. Call me thick but I just don't. if they were clear then surely the McCans would be in prison now. From what I can make out, please correct if I am wrong, they were inconclusive.
SY have said that they believe Maddie could still be alive and living with an abductor. So they either are going down that road anyway or are deliberately putting false info out there to the MC's or they are no closer to the truth either. I would just hate for this to go on and on for years and years and years. We all want to know what has happened to this little girl and I can't bear the thought she is in some pedo ring, still now as I type.

The dog alerts are not proof in themselves, they need backing up with forensics, said forensics were inconclusive. They are though justifiable suspicion/intelligence for law enforcement to consider in a case and follow up. You cant send someone to prison on dog alerts only, other evidence is required.

I think A Redwood was only saying what is possible, and giving his personal opinion, vague and non commital IMO overall, I wouldnt expect anything more or definite at such an early stage


There have been recent cases where there have been no forensics,no body,cadaver alerts with circumstantial evidence,resulting in a guilty verdict...Portugal must require more than this but if it was UK or USA im convinced it would of gone to trial...providing theres no outside influences
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Re: Opinions please

Post by Inspectorfrost on 03.03.13 23:11

Its true saltnpepper, many have been convicted without a body and or forensics. I was under the impression that a certain amount of circumstantial evidence was required as well as dog alerts. IF that wasnt the case Karen Matthews eg would have been arrested as soon as the cadaver dog alerted in her house.

You are right, the PT system requires a total dna match, other countries don't.

One of the reasons so many are convinced there was a death in 5a is because of the farcical and discredited desperate lol4 rguments put forward and campaign to trash the impeccable records of cadaver dogs, own goals, that is all
lol4

ETA Petermac, that is an awesome list! Thank you. Add Theresa Parker too! And lets not forget in the UK NOONE ever had a problem with these dogs except for the Mccann case and just after, involving the same handler, the Jersey case, never before or after these cases and these dogs were used before and after in the Uk and abroad, successfully obviously!

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