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Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

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Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by aquila on 28.02.13 8:13

A party of 9 people on holiday - 4 couples and a grandmother. Let's forget for a moment whether those children were left alone/checked by parents/checked by friends/not checked but parents had a state-of-the-art baby monitor/mobile phones were/were not taken to the table, no-one wore a watch etc. Suspend it for a moment.

Madeleine goes missing in the evening. There are four apartments between the party. There are several children between them. There are five women and four men in the party. One of the women is a grandmother.

As Madeleine's father would you expect that ALL of the men - yourself and your friends who are fathers themselves would be out all night and all day searching anywhere and everywhere as well as yourself?

As Madeleine's mother would you be out there digging in the dirt in the dark and leave the care of your two safe children alone in the safe care of your friends who are mostly doctors? Would you expect your friends to shove all the kids together in one apartment (perhaps with Granny in charge) and help you look for your child?

You call the police, they attend and need information. You give it to them. It takes time. Do you go to bed in one of your friends' apartments or do you go out in the dark and search for your daughter?

I am at a loss as to the behaviour of the entire party on this particular night. As Kate says in her bewk 'I knew' I can tell you now that 'I know' I wouldn't have put my back on a mattress for a second if my child went missing.

It comes down to base instinct. Women fight like tigers for their kids. Men fight like lions to protect their family.

Just my opinion of course.
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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by guest. on 28.02.13 8:23

Totally I agree, I've often thought they gave themselves away there because I would expect my friends to look with me definitely all through the first night when you would have the best chance of finding her.

You would have thought the kids would have been put in to 1 possibly 2 rooms max and 2 women watching them in turns while everyone else searched.

The fact that they didn't is because IMO they knew they wouldn't find her so searched enough to look good.

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by PeterMac on 28.02.13 8:25

Aquila. Something I prepared earlier.

Did the McCanns physically search for their daughter Madeleine?

Kate McCann - statement 4th May 2007 [1]
The group immediately headed to the club, and set about searching in all the buildings, swimming pool, tennis courts etc. as well as in the apartment with the help of employees.

Gerry McCann statement 4th May 2007 [2]
Immediately, the group headed for the club and searched across all the facilities, swimming pool, tennis etc., as well as in the apartment, with the help of Ocean Club employees, while at the same time they contacted the authorities, that would later appear.

Gerry McCann statement 10th May 2007 [3]
They continued with searches outside, around the various apartment blocks, the deponent having asked MATHEW to go to the secondary reception in order to communicate the fact to the local police, since he had no doubt that his daughter had been abducted.

Gerry McCann statement as Arguido 7th September 2007. [4]
Status “Arguido”, under caution (In English Law terms), and with Lawyer present.
When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they remained inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way. While the guests and resort workers were searching, he went to the main reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After returning from the reception he went back into the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom. [my emphasis]

Observations

1 It is evident from the context in the first two statements that “the group” means the rest of the group, and does not include the McCanns themselves.

2 There is a clear contradiction between the 10 May statement where it is stated that Gerry sent Matthew to the reception, and the 7th September statement, where he states that he himself went, before returning to the apartment.

3 Matthew Oldfield’s statements of 4th and 10th May, are silent on this point. Neither statement goes into details of any search.

4 Matthew Oldfield’s rogatory interview a year later states that both he and Gerry went to Reception, apparently independently. [5]

BBC TV interview
A fortnight after Gerry’s second statement, on 25th May 2007, the McCanns were interviewed by Jane Hill of the BBC. [6}
The clip may be viewed on YouTube

Transcript -
Jane Hill: "I met people who didn't go to work for more than a week because everyday they were down on the beach, searching the streets. Did you, as a mother Kate, just sometimes think 'I've got to go and be out there with them. I want to go and just physically look as well."

Kate: “(Pause) I mean, I did. Errm... (Long Pause) Errm, we'd been working really hard really. Apart... I mean, the first 48 hours, as Gerry said, are incredibly difficult and we were almost non-functioning, I'd say, errm, but after that you get strength from somewhere. We've certainly had loads of support and that's given us strength and its been able to make us focus really so we have actually, in our own way, it might not be physically searching but we've been working really hard and doing absolutely everything we can, really, to get Madeleine back."

Gerry: Made no reply.

Observations

1 The parents are being given every opportunity to say publicly what searches they had done. They have the opportunity to emphasise, for example, that Kate had remained to look after the twins and that Gerry had searched extensively. They have the opportunity to explain in great detail what they had done.

2 They remain silent.

3 They do not mention anything which appears in the following extract

From the book.
madeleine, by Kate Mccann Published 2011

p. 73 Gerry, David, Russell and Matt split into pairs and dashed around the adjacent apartment blocks, meeting back at our flat within a couple of minutes.

p. 80 On my insistence, Gerry and Dave went out again to look for some sign of Madeleine. They went up and down the beach in the dark, running, shouting, desperate to find something;

p. 81 I walked briskly up and down Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva, sometimes breaking into a jog, clinging to the hope that I’d spot something in the dark.

p. 81 Back in the apartment the cold, black night enveloped us all for what seemed like an eternity. Dianne and I sat there just staring at each other, still as statues. ‘It’s so dark,’ she said again and again. ‘I want the light to come.’ I felt exactly the same way. Gerry was stretched out on a camp bed with Amelie asleep on his chest. He kept saying, ‘Kate, we need to rest.’ He managed to drift off but only briefly, certainly for less than an hour. I didn’t even try. I couldn’t have allowed myself to entertain sleep. I felt Madeleine’s terror, and I had to keep vigil with her. I needed to be doing something, but I didn’t know where to put myself. I wandered restlessly in and out of the room and on to the balcony.
At long last, dawn broke.


p. 83 Friday 4 May. Our first day without Madeleine. As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents.
We must have been out for at least an hour before returning to David and Fiona’s apartment . . .


Observations
1 This is the first occasion on which we are told that the parents searched.

2 None of these details were included in any statement, nor in any interview prior to publication.

3 If we add the total time spent by the parents in searching, we find “a couple of minutes,” plus a “run up and down the beach”, plus “a brisk walk up and down the road”, plus “at least an hour”.
Total search time, it seems no longer than 1 hour 45 min.

4 It is entirely unclear why Kate would need to insist that Gerry went out to search.

5 Matthew Oldfield’s rogatory interview does not say that he and Gerry were searching together. In the rogatory interview there is an ambiguous passage which may indicate that he and Gerry were together on the beach. [7]

6 It is also made clear that both parents spent the latter part of the night either sleeping (Gerry), or “keeping vigil” (Kate)

7 The use of the word “resumed” on p.83 is therefore questionable.

References

Note: Nos 1 - 5, and 7 may be found in http://mccannfiles.com

1 Witness statement of Kate Marie Healy, on the 4th of May 2007, at 2.20 p.m. Processos Vol I, pages 58-65 Location: CID Portimão

2 Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann, on the 4th of May 2007, at 11.15 a.m. Processos Vol I, pages 34 - 41 Location: CID Portimão

3 Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann, on the 10th of May 2007, at 3.20 p.m. Processos Vol I, pages 891-903 Location: CID Portimão

4 Arguido questioning of Gerald Patrick McCann, on the 7th of September 2007, at 4.05 p.m. Processos Vol IV, pages 2569-2578 Location: CID Portimão

5 http://mccannfiles.com/id219.html

6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWCVSjIJk8

7 http://mccannfiles.com/id219.html

The transcript of the Rogatory interview with Matthew Oldfield follows.
The “raw” transcripts is given first, and then for ease of understanding the relevant parts are rendered in a more coherent form.

Matthew Oldfield, Rogatory Interview Leicestershire Police HQ, 9th April 2008
Reference 5
Raw Transcript
Erm, at some point we were back and forth to the, to the reception as well. And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say, there's somebody that's saying there's a child missing, because by that time there were lots of MARK WARNER people around, erm, and they were very good, they, you know, they obviously, you know, got there and that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police, if, because I understand that there is some discrepancy about when we thought we'd called the Police and when the Police were actually called and that might be that they went on the, on that route first and then went, I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well, erm, and, erm, you know, was obviously, you know, sort of intermittently sort of calm and then completely, you know, hysterically upset, it was sort of, you know, it was sort of pretty sort of upsetting, because you didn't know what to really say, because you can't really say, you know, it's going to be okay, because, you know, you assume the worst and it's going to be particularly awful, you know, it's going, you know, some, erm, person's got, (inaudible), some xxxxxxx's got my, you know, got my daughter and she's so innocent.

Edited text
. . .we were back and forth to the reception as well.
And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say there's somebody that's saying there's a child missing, because by that time there were lots of MARK WARNER people around,
and they were very good, that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police,
so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then [I] went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, and at that point Gerry had come down as well, and, was sort of intermittently calm and then completely hysterically upset . . .


Reference 7
Edited text
Reply "No I don’t remember much about the weather on that night, I’m just thinking more about when we were actually running along the beach and along the front doing the search and I don’t recall it being particularly windy.

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by aquila on 28.02.13 8:54

It all comes down to basics. The detail can't hide the basics.
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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by rainbow-fairy on 28.02.13 10:16

Good Morning PeterMac!
Fascinating collation of material, TY roses

Though I've read it before, this part from Kate's book really leapt out at me this morning:

"We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents."

Why this sudden weird reference to opening the dumpster? Generally, when Kate suddenly mentions something new it seems to be part back-fill, in a pre-emptive kind of way. Was she paranoid they had been spotted lingering at/opening dumpster?
Also, the 'nobody was out searching' totally contradicts other witness statements in which people claim they were out searching until 8, 9am... Very odd.

In short, aquila, I don't believe they 'searched' at all in the conventional sense of the word. Perfect opportunity to tell Jane Hill what they had been up to - they didn't - why? 'Cause it didn't happen, that's why IMHO

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"Ask the dogs, Sandra" - Gerry McCann to Sandra Felgueiras



Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

NORMAN MACDONALD, Maxims and Moral Reflections.
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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by PeterMac on 28.02.13 10:29

Another fascinating thing is the use of the word "dumpster" which is NOT British English. It is American. It is not a word in common use in England. We would use "skip" or "dust-bin"
Add this to the american spelling throughout
"I am sure this book will re-energize the search for our daughter
I apologize.
I was baptized and brought up
sample for fertilization
I’d visualized myself"


And one begins to suspect that this was ghost written, or spell checked by someone who had incorrect language settings.
- - -
And yes, I did send it to Grange.

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by bobbin on 28.02.13 10:59

PeterMac wrote:Aquila. Something I prepared earlier.

Did the McCanns physically search for their daughter Madeleine?

Kate McCann - statement 4th May 2007 [1]
The group immediately headed to the club, and set about searching in all the buildings, swimming pool, tennis courts etc. as well as in the apartment with the help of employees.

Gerry McCann statement 4th May 2007 [2]
Immediately, the group headed for the club and searched across all the facilities, swimming pool, tennis etc., as well as in the apartment, with the help of Ocean Club employees, while at the same time they contacted the authorities, that would later appear.

Gerry McCann statement 10th May 2007 [3]
They continued with searches outside, around the various apartment blocks, the deponent having asked MATHEW to go to the secondary reception in order to communicate the fact to the local police, since he had no doubt that his daughter had been abducted.

Gerry McCann statement as Arguido 7th September 2007. [4]
Status “Arguido”, under caution (In English Law terms), and with Lawyer present.
When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they remained inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way. While the guests and resort workers were searching, he went to the main reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After returning from the reception he went back into the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom. [my emphasis]

Observations

1 It is evident from the context in the first two statements that “the group” means the rest of the group, and does not include the McCanns themselves.

2 There is a clear contradiction between the 10 May statement where it is stated that Gerry sent Matthew to the reception, and the 7th September statement, where he states that he himself went, before returning to the apartment.

3 Matthew Oldfield’s statements of 4th and 10th May, are silent on this point. Neither statement goes into details of any search.

4 Matthew Oldfield’s rogatory interview a year later states that both he and Gerry went to Reception, apparently independently. [5]

BBC TV interview
A fortnight after Gerry’s second statement, on 25th May 2007, the McCanns were interviewed by Jane Hill of the BBC. [6}
The clip may be viewed on YouTube

Transcript -
Jane Hill: "I met people who didn't go to work for more than a week because everyday they were down on the beach, searching the streets. Did you, as a mother Kate, just sometimes think 'I've got to go and be out there with them. I want to go and just physically look as well."

Kate: “(Pause) I mean, I did. Errm... (Long Pause) Errm, we'd been working really hard really. Apart... I mean, the first 48 hours, as Gerry said, are incredibly difficult and we were almost non-functioning, I'd say, errm, but after that you get strength from somewhere. We've certainly had loads of support and that's given us strength and its been able to make us focus really so we have actually, in our own way, it might not be physically searching but we've been working really hard and doing absolutely everything we can, really, to get Madeleine back."

Gerry: Made no reply.

Observations

1 The parents are being given every opportunity to say publicly what searches they had done. They have the opportunity to emphasise, for example, that Kate had remained to look after the twins and that Gerry had searched extensively. They have the opportunity to explain in great detail what they had done.

2 They remain silent.

3 They do not mention anything which appears in the following extract

From the book.
madeleine, by Kate Mccann Published 2011

p. 73 Gerry, David, Russell and Matt split into pairs and dashed around the adjacent apartment blocks, meeting back at our flat within a couple of minutes.

p. 80 On my insistence, Gerry and Dave went out again to look for some sign of Madeleine. They went up and down the beach in the dark, running, shouting, desperate to find something;

p. 81 I walked briskly up and down Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva, sometimes breaking into a jog, clinging to the hope that I’d spot something in the dark.

p. 81 Back in the apartment the cold, black night enveloped us all for what seemed like an eternity. Dianne and I sat there just staring at each other, still as statues. ‘It’s so dark,’ she said again and again. ‘I want the light to come.’ I felt exactly the same way. Gerry was stretched out on a camp bed with Amelie asleep on his chest. He kept saying, ‘Kate, we need to rest.’ He managed to drift off but only briefly, certainly for less than an hour. I didn’t even try. I couldn’t have allowed myself to entertain sleep. I felt Madeleine’s terror, and I had to keep vigil with her. I needed to be doing something, but I didn’t know where to put myself. I wandered restlessly in and out of the room and on to the balcony.
At long last, dawn broke.


p. 83 Friday 4 May. Our first day without Madeleine. As soon as it was light Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents.
We must have been out for at least an hour before returning to David and Fiona’s apartment . . .


Observations
1 This is the first occasion on which we are told that the parents searched.

2 None of these details were included in any statement, nor in any interview prior to publication.

3 If we add the total time spent by the parents in searching, we find “a couple of minutes,” plus a “run up and down the beach”, plus “a brisk walk up and down the road”, plus “at least an hour”.
Total search time, it seems no longer than 1 hour 45 min.

4 It is entirely unclear why Kate would need to insist that Gerry went out to search.

5 Matthew Oldfield’s rogatory interview does not say that he and Gerry were searching together. In the rogatory interview there is an ambiguous passage which may indicate that he and Gerry were together on the beach. [7]

6 It is also made clear that both parents spent the latter part of the night either sleeping (Gerry), or “keeping vigil” (Kate)

7 The use of the word “resumed” on p.83 is therefore questionable.

References

Note: Nos 1 - 5, and 7 may be found in http://mccannfiles.com

1 Witness statement of Kate Marie Healy, on the 4th of May 2007, at 2.20 p.m. Processos Vol I, pages 58-65 Location: CID Portimão

2 Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann, on the 4th of May 2007, at 11.15 a.m. Processos Vol I, pages 34 - 41 Location: CID Portimão

3 Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann, on the 10th of May 2007, at 3.20 p.m. Processos Vol I, pages 891-903 Location: CID Portimão

4 Arguido questioning of Gerald Patrick McCann, on the 7th of September 2007, at 4.05 p.m. Processos Vol IV, pages 2569-2578 Location: CID Portimão

5 http://mccannfiles.com/id219.html

6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWCVSjIJk8

7 http://mccannfiles.com/id219.html

The transcript of the Rogatory interview with Matthew Oldfield follows.
The “raw” transcripts is given first, and then for ease of understanding the relevant parts are rendered in a more coherent form.

Matthew Oldfield, Rogatory Interview Leicestershire Police HQ, 9th April 2008
Reference 5
Raw Transcript
Erm, at some point we were back and forth to the, to the reception as well. And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say, there's somebody that's saying there's a child missing, because by that time there were lots of MARK WARNER people around, erm, and they were very good, they, you know, they obviously, you know, got there and that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police, if, because I understand that there is some discrepancy about when we thought we'd called the Police and when the Police were actually called and that might be that they went on the, on that route first and then went, I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well, erm, and, erm, you know, was obviously, you know, sort of intermittently sort of calm and then completely, you know, hysterically upset, it was sort of, you know, it was sort of pretty sort of upsetting, because you didn't know what to really say, because you can't really say, you know, it's going to be okay, because, you know, you assume the worst and it's going to be particularly awful, you know, it's going, you know, some, erm, person's got, (inaudible), some xxxxxxx's got my, you know, got my daughter and she's so innocent.

Edited text
. . .we were back and forth to the reception as well.
And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say there's somebody that's saying there's a child missing, because by that time there were lots of MARK WARNER people around,
and they were very good, that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police,
so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then [I] went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, and at that point Gerry had come down as well, and, was sort of intermittently calm and then completely hysterically upset . . .


Reference 7
Edited text
Reply "No I don’t remember much about the weather on that night, I’m just thinking more about when we were actually running along the beach and along the front doing the search and I don’t recall it being particularly windy.
Add to your excellent collation PeterMac, tigger's noting of the mobile phone usage by Kate and Gerry when they were first up with the light to do this so-called search. It's a surprise that Kate didn't actually drop her mobile in the dumpster, she was using it so often.
carried over from the:-Chelsea Hoffman: "Tony Bennett is credible in his opinions"
(tigger said) I presume it gets light at least around 6.00 a.m. in PdL. (please correct)
Whilst they were jumping into ditches etc. they must have had the mobiles glued to their ears?
Here's the list:
6.02.08 am Mum mob calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.04.11 am Kate calls Mum mob (0 seconds) SMS
6.05.29 am Kate calls Amanda home (7.02 minutes)
6.08.17 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.18.17 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
6.34.53 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.35.23 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
6.39.38 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
6.47.42 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.47.54 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.48.05 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.59.12 am Jon Corner calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
6.59.44 am Kate calls Jon Corner (0 seconds) SMS
07.00 am GNR Officer P. J. F. N. saw the McCann couple alone in the street next to the site where they were stationed.
7.06.06 am Sue and Brian Healy call Gerry (01 seconds) SMS
7.09.04 am John McCann calls Gerry (3.26 minutes)
7.15.19 am Gerry calls Angela Morado UK Consulate (4.51 minutes)
7.23.20 am … calls Gerry (5.53 minutes)
7.41.14 am Jill mob calls Kate (3.30 minutes)
7.44.48 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
7.46.36 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
7.48.12 am … calls Kate (373 seconds)
7.51.14 am … calls Kate (1.26 minutes)
8.06.14 am mum mob calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
8.07.52 am Kate calls mum mob (0 seconds) SMS
8.11.35 am Jill mob calls Kate (1.56 minutes)
8.21.21 am Jill mob calls Kate (153 seconds)
8.27.26 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
8.28.30 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
8.29.56 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
8.31.00 am Kate calls Michelle mob (3 seconds)
8.31.21 am Jill mob calls Kate (2.33 minutes)
8.34.09 am Kate calls … (32 seconds)
8.34.19 am Kate calls Jon Corner (61 seconds)
8.34.59 am voicemail calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
8.35.15 am Gerry calls Angela Morado, UK consulate (1.43 minutes)
8.35.21 am Kate calls voicemail (20 seconds)
8.36.03 am Kate calls voicemail (37 seconds)
8.45.20 am Kate calls … (136 seconds)
8.50.27 am Gerry calls Angela Morado, UK consulate (4.47 minutes)
8.51.42 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
8.52.41 am Kate calls Jon Corner (73 seconds)
8.56.15 am Kate calls Nuala (47 seconds)
8.57.17 am Jill mob calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.01.55 am … calls Gerry (1.46 minutes)
9.04.16 am … calls Gerry (1.28 minutes)
9.05.38 am anonymous number calls Gerry (2.12 minutes)
9.09.32 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.09.44 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.09.56 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.10.39 am Kate calls … (0 seconds) SMS
9.12.04 am Geteesha mob calls Kate (262 seconds)
9.14.28 am UK consulate in Portugal calls Gerry (3.58 minutes)
9.16.07 am … calls Gerry (1 second)
9.25.51 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.26.03 am … calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.29.18 am Jill mob calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.33.11 am Michelle & Jon call Kate (5.35 minutes)
9.34.42 am Voicemail calls Kate (0 seconds) SMS
9.45.21 am Fiona & Richard call Kate (1.45 minutes)by tigger on Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:15 pm

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by Cristobell on 28.02.13 11:54

The behaviour of the parents and the group immediately following the alarm being raised is curious to say the least. If the checking times were correct, then Madeleine had been missing for less than an hour and according to JT the abductor was walking. He was certainly walking away from the car park. Actually, I am surprised that Kate did not feel to see if Madeleine's bed was still warm.

At the time the alarm was raised there was a good chance of finding Madeleine close by and Gerry hurling himself to the ground in front of the police was way over the top. This group of highly trained medical professionals were hysterical and unable to co-ordinate an effective search. Each of the doctors must have dealt with emergencies on an almost daily basis, yet their first instinct was to panic.

Something that also niggles me constantly, is the strange 1.00am visit to the apartment of Jez Wilkins by a staff member of Warners and one of the Tapas group. They informed him that a child had been abducted, but no, they did not need his help with the search! I can't get past that. Jez was a big, 6'4" adult male who could probably have covered twice the amount of ground than many others, and in addition, could probably physically tackle an abductor if necessary. Gerry had been overheard telling someone on the phone that a gang of paedophiles had taken his daughter. Had they discovered the child in the clutches of such a gang, they needed strength in numbers.

The actions of the group that night are highly suspect and lets hope SY examine the timeline carefully.

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by PeterMac on 28.02.13 12:18

Cristobell wrote:. . . Actually, I am surprised that Kate did not feel to see if Madeleine's bed was still warm.

God point, I had totally missed that.

. . . Something that also niggles me constantly, is the strange 1.00am visit to the apartment of Jez Wilkins by a staff member of Warners and one of the Tapas group. They informed him that a child had been abducted, but no, they did not need his help with the search!
They also didn't ask him if he had seen anything IIRC. Give that by 1 am Gerry knew about the JT "sighting", and that it had occurred (I'm not gong to keep repeating 'allegedly', just take it as read) whilst JW and GM were talking, why did they not grab JW and march him back to the street and get the three of them to take part in an immediate reconstruction, and then spread out along the route.

But no, they went to bed and kept vigil, because it was dark. As a matter of fact there are fairly decent street lights throughout the whole town. That just doesn't wash.

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by rainbow-fairy on 28.02.13 12:46

quote="PeterMac"]Another fascinating thing is the use of the word "dumpster" which is NOT British English. It is American. It is not a word in common use in England. We would use "skip" or "dust-bin"
Add this to the american spelling throughout
"I am sure this book will re-energize the search for our daughter
I apologize.
I was baptized and brought up
sample for fertilization
I’d visualized myself"


And one begins to suspect that this was ghost written, or spell checked by someone who had incorrect language settings.
- - -
And yes, I did send it to Grange.
[/quote]

Blimey PeterMac! I hadn't noticed that either (I'll blame it on pregnancy brain! Wink)
But seeing it there, you are right... Had it been me, I'dve just said 'huge wheelie bin' or as you say 'skip'. The American spellings is odd too... Funny though when I spell check my posts I have to be careful, as phone ALWAYS wants to change 'color' for 'colour' meaning the colour doesn't work!
But that is multi-examples. I've had my doubts for a while that Kate wrote that, too dramatic (I'm thinking of the 'icy fear, please God no!' - the piece where she sees the window is open? Or can be opened - in the book. Its the kind of dramatic sentence an seasoned author would use.
And Kate isn't particularly literate in her spoken word either, is she?

PS Just spell-checked that and it tried to correct every word of Kates that you had highlighted!!!

Glad it has gone to Grange too. Well done!

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by aiyoyo on 28.02.13 13:24

Cristobell wrote:The behaviour of the parents and the group immediately following the alarm being raised is curious to say the least. If the checking times were correct, then Madeleine had been missing for less than an hour and according to JT the abductor was walking. He was certainly walking away from the car park. Actually, I am surprised that Kate did not feel to see if Madeleine's bed was still warm.

At the time the alarm was raised there was a good chance of finding Madeleine close by and Gerry hurling himself to the ground in front of the police was way over the top. This group of highly trained medical professionals were hysterical and unable to co-ordinate an effective search. Each of the doctors must have dealt with emergencies on an almost daily basis, yet their first instinct was to panic.

Something that also niggles me constantly, is the strange 1.00am visit to the apartment of Jez Wilkins by a staff member of Warners and one of the Tapas group. They informed him that a child had been abducted, but no, they did not need his help with the search! I can't get past that. Jez was a big, 6'4" adult male who could probably have covered twice the amount of ground than many others, and in addition, could probably physically tackle an abductor if necessary. Gerry had been overheard telling someone on the phone that a gang of paedophiles had taken his daughter. Had they discovered the child in the clutches of such a gang, they needed strength in numbers.

The actions of the group that night are highly suspect and lets hope SY examine the timeline carefully.

Plus this has been discussed before - that they didnt call 911 from their room which would have been instinct of panicking parents when their child is missing.
From Gerry's statements, Matthew and himself alternately went to the reception to check they had called the Police.

Looking into the dumpster is so weird considering that the Police and nearly all the villagers had already searched earlier.
The Mccanns claimed Maddie was taken, so in their right mind would have thought of looking into the dumpster. You would suppose searchers were looking for an alive child, as in looking to see if a stranger had a child with him, but Kate was looking her in the Bin. wurely when she said she looked into the dumpster she implied she was looking for a dead and discarded Maddie. Really bizzare.
What was she implying when she said she looked into the dumpster?
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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by Miraflores on 28.02.13 15:31

911 wouldn't work in Portugal. Perhaps they were too anglo-centric to know the European 112 number? Even so, the obvious thing would have been to have called the Mark Warner reception and get them to put the calls through.
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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by guest. on 28.02.13 16:28

Have they ever actually thanked the locals for searching?

I know at times they've said they had a lot of support but that has a whole different meaning

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by plebgate on 28.02.13 17:42

@miraflores yes they may not have known the emergency number but I know whenever I visit a foreign country especially with children in tow I always make sure to find out the emergency number more or less on arrival. Normally the management leave a list of doctors, dentists numbers and the emergency number in apartment/hotel rooms.

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by aquila on 28.02.13 17:52

Screaming at the top of your voice in the quietness of the evening, 'help, somebody call the police, my daughter is missing' might have also sufficed in the absence of a number or even a telephone. I'm just not getting the sense of panic.
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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by Guest on 28.02.13 17:53

So do I plebgate. Check important local numbers. And in a hotel, especially when it's not a groundfloor room, I check the emergency exit schedule on the door and go there with my eyes closed ... ;-)
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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by plebgate on 28.02.13 18:08

Exactly Chatelaine. Exactly.

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by Inspectorfrost on 28.02.13 18:54

She knew JT was in her apartment a couple doors down, Ok she may not have been thinking clearly, but I agree that just shouting out would have alerted anyone nearby as it was quiet, instead of leaving the other children, the abductor could have been hiding around the corner stopped in their tracks from taking all of them. This has never made sense to me. If anything protective instincts would have kicked in overtime in the situation.

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by aiyoyo on 01.03.13 4:26

Her reaction and actions thereafter all do not tally with a panic parent who finds herself in that situation.

She was second guessing what to do to make it credible so all her actions came across as reel than real.

Didnt call Police from her room, didnt scream for someone to come but left her twins unattended while she rushed back to Tapas Bar, didnt stop friends from contaminating crime scene (something a doctor instinctively should know), didn't search, didnt volunteer info to Police, refuse to answer Police questions, phone UK media and family then delete calls, went jogging, went walk about the village looking happy as if celebrities collecting flowers and well wishes, washed cuddle cat, used the Church hence religion to their advantage, the list goes on....everything about their actions is surreal.

Their evolving statements are truly eyes opener. If we amateurs can sussed out them out, surely Op Grange can...

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by aquila on 01.03.13 6:38

I started this thread just to work with TM's version of events. KM's book, T9's statements, rogatory interviews and controlled interviews in the media are 'solid' things to work with as the information emanates from them.

Let's keep rolling with just TM's version.

Sometimes it's good to go back to basics and I think this topic is a good place to demonstrate a lot of TM's information and to highlight areas which give cause for concern or which are found questionable/lacking in substance.

There is a child called Madeleine at the heart of all of this. It's not about 'us' and 'them' it's about finding justice for a little girl who disappeared one night when her parents left her and her siblings alone in an unlocked apartment, next to a road, near steps and a swimming pool in the Algarve as they went to dine with their friends.
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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by tigger on 01.03.13 8:11

Here are a number of occasions where the McCanns and some other members of the group were seen by independent witnesses.
The times are all over the place - pointing imo to an earlier alarm than 10.00 pm.


The exact time given by a mrs. da Silva is imo a little weird - surely giving the time to the exact minute is not usual?

JW: the movable feast....yet more likely to have been around 20.50 - OC isn't that large. Surely a reconstruction would have cleared that up. Someone could just copy JW's walk pushing a buggy.
My feeling is that they talked for two minutes max. and that it was before 9.00 p.m. The time needed stretching to accommodate the Smith sighting.
So the meeting time of 9.05 was 'chosen' and a longer talk followed taking the abductor in at the latest time that could be substantiated by the witness.
9.15.
JW:
As stated in my original deposition, I believe that I left the apartment around 20h30. I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15. I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21h05. Even if this were correct, I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm


21.58 Exact time. MMMdS leaves apt. at (exact time) to car park block 6. Passing block 5 saw no movement of people and no vehicle except small car - grey in colour close to the window of 5a. Saw a light in the apartment above 5a and in 5a. Nothing abnormal.

At about 22.17 Hotel manager E. L. K. received a call from L.J., the Crèche Manager, informing her that the girl had gone missing. She met L.J. and the Service Manager, A.T., near to the Tapas Bar and they initiated the “Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child”.

22.45/22.50 Manager J. H. went to the apartment being used by the McCanns, where he saw that both members of the couple were in a panic and were shouting that the child had been taken. He always saw the McCanns together in the apartment they were occupying at the time, with the exception of an episode when Gerry went to the main 24 hour reception, with the purpose of speaking to a GNR officer.

refs in:
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5062-the-events-from-9pm-3rd-may-to-end-of-4th-may-as-told-by-the-main-witnesses

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5570p10-timeline-evening-3-5-07-as-from-800-pm


22.55/23.00 manager E. L. K. went to the McCann’s apartment to obtain the girl’s description.

23.00 After she arrived about S.B. (Silvia Batista - translator)went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them.
When she came close to the elements of the GNR she found that behind her was Gerry, Madeleine's father, accompanied by another man whose identity she doesn't remember. Then Gerry kneeled down, hit the floor with both hands, positioning himself as if he were a praying Arab, and screamed twice of anger, what he said being impossible to understand. Then Gerry stood up and accompanied her (the witness) and the other man in the car of the GNR to the apartment A5. S.B. walked Gerry to the GNR car, so he could deliver the requested documents. She remembers that Gerry gave the GNR Commander several photographs of the missing person. These were postcard-type photographs, taking their size and shape into account. They were actually photographs of the size and shape of a postcard, and they seemed to be all similar to her.

23.00/23.05 pm - A GNR patrol arrives at Ocean Club (two men); When they arrived they saw the girl’s father, a friend whom GNR Officer N. F. P. d. C. describes as tall and blond, an OC employee and a translator who was also an OC employee, named S.B..
Estimated time around 23.10 pm Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by E.L.K. when she was on her way to the beach, the search area to which she was assigned by L. J. (child care director and search coordinator).
23:14 Gerry calls Kate (8 seconds)
23:17 Gerry calls Kate (31 seconds)

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by PeterMac on 01.03.13 8:20

aiyoyo wrote:Her reaction and actions thereafter all do not tally with a panic parent who finds herself in that situation.
She was second guessing what to do to make it credible so all her actions came across as reel than real.
Didnt call Police from her room, didnt scream for someone to come but left her twins unattended while she rushed back to Tapas Bar, didnt stop friends from contaminating crime scene (something a doctor instinctively should know), didn't search, didn't volunteer info to Police, refuse to answer Police questions, phone UK media and family then delete calls, went jogging, went walk about the village looking happy as if celebrities collecting flowers and well wishes, washed cuddle cat, used the Church hence religion to their advantage, the list goes on....everything about their actions is surreal.
Their evolving statements are truly eyes opener. If we amateurs can sussed out them out, surely Op Grange can...
And Gerry ? His first contact with the police was a lie - entered through front door, using his key- which he confirmed in his written statement next morning.
At that point it must have been obvious to the PJ that either he was lying, OR that the window and shutters had not been open. Or both.
They knew ( they knew !) that the story was a fabrication right from the start.

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by aquila on 01.03.13 8:21

Hi Tigger,

An excellent post. For the new members of the forum (and the oldies with menopausal memory) would it be possible for you to edit your post to include full names instead of initials?
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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by tigger on 01.03.13 8:27

aquila wrote:Hi Tigger,

An excellent post. For the new members of the forum (and the oldies with menopausal memory) would it be possible for you to edit your post to include full names instead of initials?

Too late I'm afraid, editing over, but the refs I've given give most of the full names. On mrs. da Silva there is more in the Madeleine Foundation I think.
Love computers, but paper is best here and a very large cork-covered wall!

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Re: Getting down to basics - the search for Madeleine on the night she went missing

Post by aquila on 01.03.13 8:35

PeterMac wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:Her reaction and actions thereafter all do not tally with a panic parent who finds herself in that situation.
She was second guessing what to do to make it credible so all her actions came across as reel than real.
Didnt call Police from her room, didnt scream for someone to come but left her twins unattended while she rushed back to Tapas Bar, didnt stop friends from contaminating crime scene (something a doctor instinctively should know), didn't search, didn't volunteer info to Police, refuse to answer Police questions, phone UK media and family then delete calls, went jogging, went walk about the village looking happy as if celebrities collecting flowers and well wishes, washed cuddle cat, used the Church hence religion to their advantage, the list goes on....everything about their actions is surreal.
Their evolving statements are truly eyes opener. If we amateurs can sussed out them out, surely Op Grange can...
And Gerry ? His first contact with the police was a lie - entered through front door, using his key- which he confirmed in his written statement next morning.
At that point it must have been obvious to the PJ that either he was lying, OR that the window and shutters had not been open. Or both.


They knew ( they knew !) that the story was a fabrication right from the start.

Peter, can you give a link to GM's first statement to the police?. It's
important we show this to be a published fact. There are many people
'out there' who think this forum is hearsay driven. Let's stick with the
information we have for TM. I know you will agree with me.
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