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For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

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Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by tigger on Tue Feb 19 2013, 08:27

Leafylane wrote:
tigger wrote:Leafy wrote: The key fob was in the driver's door compartment,which could mean that Eddie was alerting to the scent of GM's dried blood on it - which would be just inches away from his nose on the other side of the door at the time of his alert - and to which Keela also alerted from inside the car. unquote

Eddie only alerts to cadaver odour, Keela alerts to blood.


quote from FSS report:
An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key - (286C/2007-CRL (12)). I guess this is the fob of the car-keys . unquote.

The fact that both dogs alerted would mean that both cadaver odour and blood was present on the key fob as well as genetic material which was probably that of GM.
It does not follow that both the cadaver odour and the blood are Gerry's, or that only the blood is that of Gerry and the cadaver odour must then be discounted. DNA was extracted from cellular material. Had it been extracted from traces of blood the report would have stated this. DNA can be extracted from epithelial cells etc.
There is no record whatsoever of GM's blood being present anywhere, or of Gerry having cut himself.


I just had a look on STM site. Perhaps that's where you're getting your information from?

Both dogs alert to blood from a live human being. Martin Grimes says so - not me.

I did say the blood 'could be' GMs. He was the main driver of the car.

If it wasn't dried blood on the fob, then as Keela only alerts to blood, that would mean she gave 2 false alerts to the key fob.

I get my 'information' from the official PJ files.

You said: ....which could mean that Eddie was alerting to the scent of GM's dried blood on it. unquote.

In the above sentence, the verb 'could' is associated with Eddie alerting not with GM's dried blood which is stated as a fact. Which is misleading.

So what you are saying is that when Eddie was alerting to cadaver odour as we thought, he might only have been alerting to blood? So he was doubling up on Keela's task. Grimes used two dogs when he could have just used one with two different barks?
Or all the places where Eddie alerted there might just have been a speck of blood from e.g. a builder who'd cut himself when the apartments were built? No cadaver odour at all?

I've posted the FSS findings and once is enough. Confusion is good isn't it?

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Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Leafylane on Tue Feb 19 2013, 08:47

saltnpepper wrote:
Leafylane wrote:
saltnpepper wrote:Hi Leafy it is banging heads on brick walls,what i would like to know & i respect your views...Eddie has alerted in places where a child was reported missing...in terms of percentage,how much do you believe in the McCann's innocence based on the cadaver dogs alert.

I wouldn't like to say Saltnpepper, because I do have a problem as to why the dogs did not alert in other apartments or other cars, as that would seem to fly in the face of what Martin Grime tells us about the extent of his dogs skills. Unfortunately only Martin Grime can give us the answer to that apparent anomaly.

Ok thanks...this is quite a problem you have,keela can scent blood that has been cleaned,scrubbed etc so if eddie is of the same ilk,he would be barking in every building there is...the way i see it is-obviously if foul play is suspected there will be no sign of a body,the police ask for a cadaver dog,if he reacts to the scent he is trained for,then you bring in a blood dog to give the investigation pointers for forensics


Ok another scenario to try & explain...i kill someone with a knife,they obviously bleed,i leave the body for a few hours,clean up & remove the body...what happens when the cadaver dog signals & the blood dog alerts in the same place...with your theory no one died there was justblood,which is excellent news for me as i will be free to kill again...hope i explained ok

As far as I know Saltnpepper, working dogs are only on duty when they are instructed to be by their handlers, and that would explain why they don't spend their entire waking hours 'alerting'.

Re your scenario, the way I understand it is that if you stabbed someone,and they bled and died and you removed the body and cleaned up - then the dogs would both alert to the blood scent left at the scene of the crime and if the dead body was found that would 'confirm' the dogs findings.

But if you stabbed someone and they bled but they didn't die, and you took them away alive and let's say you kept them a prisoner, therefore they were ''missing' - the dogs would still alert to the blood scent left at the scene - even though the 'owner' of the blood is still alive,

This is why without the 'body', ''corroberrating evidence'' which Martin Grimes constantly emphasizes is essential, it isn't possible to say whether the blood that was deposited was from a dead person or a live one.

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Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by bobbin on Tue Feb 19 2013, 09:07

Leafylane wrote:
saltnpepper wrote:
Leafylane wrote:
saltnpepper wrote:Hi Leafy it is banging heads on brick walls,what i would like to know & i respect your views...Eddie has alerted in places where a child was reported missing...in terms of percentage,how much do you believe in the McCann's innocence based on the cadaver dogs alert.

I wouldn't like to say Saltnpepper, because I do have a problem as to why the dogs did not alert in other apartments or other cars, as that would seem to fly in the face of what Martin Grime tells us about the extent of his dogs skills. Unfortunately only Martin Grime can give us the answer to that apparent anomaly.

Ok thanks...this is quite a problem you have,keela can scent blood that has been cleaned,scrubbed etc so if eddie is of the same ilk,he would be barking in every building there is...the way i see it is-obviously if foul play is suspected there will be no sign of a body,the police ask for a cadaver dog,if he reacts to the scent he is trained for,then you bring in a blood dog to give the investigation pointers for forensics


Ok another scenario to try & explain...i kill someone with a knife,they obviously bleed,i leave the body for a few hours,clean up & remove the body...what happens when the cadaver dog signals & the blood dog alerts in the same place...with your theory no one died there was justblood,which is excellent news for me as i will be free to kill again...hope i explained ok

As far as I know Saltnpepper, working dogs are only on duty when they are instructed to be by their handlers, and that would explain why they don't spend their entire waking hours 'alerting'.

Re your scenario, the way I understand it is that if you stabbed someone,and they bled and died and you removed the body and cleaned up - then the dogs would both alert to the blood scent left at the scene of the crime and if the dead body was found that would 'confirm' the dogs findings.

But if you stabbed someone and they bled but they didn't die, and you took them away alive and let's say you kept them a prisoner, therefore they were ''missing' - the dogs would still alert to the blood scent left at the scene - even though the 'owner' of the blood is still alive,

This is why without the 'body', ''corroberrating evidence'' which Martin Grimes constantly emphasizes is essential, it isn't possible to say whether the blood that was deposited was from a dead person or a live one.

yes but when a 'cadaver' dog signals, where a blood dog doesn't, it's a sign to go looking for a 'dead' body.
sorry you can't get your head round this.

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Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Inspectorfrost on Tue Feb 19 2013, 16:19

Leafylane

You did not JUST say that Eddie COULD have been alerting to Gerry's blood, you actually said in the 5a forensics thread

Quote
Martin Grime's statement they can alert to ''dried blood from a live human being'' seems pretty unambiguous to me. And surely the dogs proved him to be correct when they both alerted to the key fob. Forensics found Gerry McCanns blood on it - therefore proving they had correctly alerted to dried blood from a living person.
Unquote

Forensics did not say ever that his blood was there. A cadaver dog alert can never be said to be to 100% blood from a living person, just because a blood dog also alerted.


As for Eddie not alerting 24/7 but only unless put to work, exactly, he didn't alert when put to work to anywhere outwith the Mccann residence, car and possessions. No one ever suggested he would be barking 24/7 but he WOULD be when deployed barking all over the place if as you assert he reacts to urine, semen, toenails, teeth, bad breath and all the other ridiculous scenarios put forth, such as pizza and coconuts and dirty nappies and fish blood.

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Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 19 2013, 20:32

bobbin wrote: [...]
yes but when a 'cadaver' dog signals, where a blood dog doesn't, it's a sign to go looking for a 'dead' body.
sorry you can't get your head round this.
***
And that's exactly what it is ...
No Keela alerting = no blood, just cadaver. Period.
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Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by saltnpepper on Tue Feb 19 2013, 20:51

Re your scenario, the way I understand it is that if you stabbed
someone,and they bled and died and you removed the body and cleaned up -
then the dogs would both alert to the blood scent left at the scene of
the crime and if the dead body was found that would 'confirm' the dogs
findings
.

So im free to kill again because i hid the body so well no one will ever find it.

Another scenario:I have a nose bleed in the bathroom,i sell the house & the buyer is murdered in the bathroom 2 years later by stangulation & the body will never be found as it has been disolved in acid...a cadaver dog marks the scent of death in the bathroom & then the csi does later with no dna evidence...will the police assume that the owner has died ?

sorry...i watch far too much tv
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Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Tombraider on Tue Feb 19 2013, 22:13

Funny stuff cadaver residue, molecular and sticks to just about everything, mix that with the viscous nature of blood and no doubt a blood dog and human remains detection dog would both alert.

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