The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hello!

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann. Please note that your username should be different from your email address!

When posting please be mindful that this forum is primarily about the death of a three year old girl.

(Please note: if you register with the sole intention of disrupting or spamming, please don't expect to be a member for too long.)

Many thanks,

Jill Havern
Forum owner

For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Inspectorfrost on 17.02.13 1:35

Leafylane wrote

In reply to Bobbin

Quote from Martin Grime

Q. The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver?

A. The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for ‘live’ human odours. No trained dog will recognize the smell of fresh blood. What they find and give the alerts for is dried blood from a live human being.

End Quote.

Actually it is misleading to call Eddie a cadaver dog as that was only part of his overall function. He was a Victim Recovery dog not a Dead Victims Only Recovery dog.
----------------------
Which part of Eddie being trained on dead decomposing material from cadavers did you not understand? And please quote any case where Eddie was used in a search for LIVE victims. Until you do this your statement above remains false.

This and other posts can be found in the forensics thread which went off topic to cadaver dog findings

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6537-5a-forensics-taken-04-05-07

I feel the issue is live and relevant and not closed. The arguments put across that Eddie was alerting to fluids and other material from living people such as semen, bodily sweat, period fluid, nails, bad breath, urine, etc is just not convincing at all. For reasons stated umpteen times here and elsewhere.

Now, what was so stenching in the parents bedroom, on some of the clothes, on the verandah that caused the dog to alert. And NOWHERE ELSE. One cannot argue that only the Mccann family left traces of normal every live material. Besides, the dog does not alert to all those as it would be alerting left right and centre. Its stupid. Must try harder, Im open to persuasion.!




Inspectorfrost

Posts : 841
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2012-12-09

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Inspectorfrost on 17.02.13 2:23

inspectorfrost wrote
In response to Leafys below

He could be alerting to body parts(i.e.nail parts etc) or bodily fluids from a living person. Or he could be alerting to cadaverscent from a dead person who had died many years previously

-----
Leafy
So you don't think it's a little coincidental that Eddie only alerted to the last place a missing person was seen and no where else, like no one else left nail clippings on the floor e.g. Or some other bodily fluid you refer to. Eddie was trained to detect the scent of dead bodies, why would he be alerting to fluids from living people, what are these fluids you talk of? And why were they abscent everywhere except for flat 5a

PS The PJ established no one had ever died in the flat. In other words the cadaver dog alerts are at the very least justifiable suspicion in the circumstances.

------


BTW Leafy you never replied to this

Inspectorfrost

Posts : 841
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2012-12-09

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by tigger on 17.02.13 7:12

Re the above:

Cadaver odour is a scent totally different from any other body related scents. Human cadaver scent again, is different from that of other animals.
That dogs can distinguish between these scents and only react to human cadaver odour is an established fact.

No one had died in that apartment since it was built - the PJ aren't stupid. These obvious questions occurred to them as well.
I would not presume that highly trained police had not bothered with the basic investigative methods. Lucky that the files were published - at least that proves the PJ worked flat out to solve the case according to basic principles.

Being a doctor doesn't make you an expert on dead bodies, you're supposed to keep your patients alive. Hence Gerry and Kate's feeble excuses for what the dogs found are even more revealing. Rotting meat doesn't have human cadaver odour.
Dogs can distinguish between the two. There is even a video of a man who buried his victim deep under a heap of rotting beef. The dog didn't stop when he found the meat, he went on many feet until they found the cadaver. That's how good those dogs are.


____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.
avatar
tigger

Posts : 8114
Reputation : 44
Join date : 2011-07-20

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Leafylane on 17.02.13 9:40

@tigger wrote:Re the above:

Cadaver odour is a scent totally different from any other body related scents. Human cadaver scent again, is different from that of other animals.
That dogs can distinguish between these scents and only react to human cadaver odour is an established fact.

No one had died in that apartment since it was built - the PJ aren't stupid. These obvious questions occurred to them as well.
I would not presume that highly trained police had not bothered with the basic investigative methods. Lucky that the files were published - at least that proves the PJ worked flat out to solve the case according to basic principles.

Being a doctor doesn't make you an expert on dead bodies, you're supposed to keep your patients alive. Hence Gerry and Kate's feeble excuses for what the dogs found are even more revealing. Rotting meat doesn't have human cadaver odour.
Dogs can distinguish between the two. There is even a video of a man who buried his victim deep under a heap of rotting beef. The dog didn't stop when he found the meat, he went on many feet until they found the cadaver. That's how good those dogs are.


You're quite right Tigger the dogs are brilliant, but strange as it may seem it is because they have such wonderful skills that unless a body is found at the site where a dog has alerted then it can't be guaranteed that a body was even there in the first place.

If you sent a dog to search say a cellar for instance and it alerted at a spot, and a body was found then that's great - job done, case closed. But if an alert is made and no body is found there then you are faced with several questions (because of their skills) which you may not be able to answer.

Eddie could detect odour from many decades ago - which is fantastic, but it also poses the problem, that without a cadaver, you don't know how old the scent is that he has alerted to. Was it a scent from last month or last year or from 20 years or even longer ago? You cannot say unless you find what it is the dog is alerting to.

Another skill of Eddies is that he could detect the tiniest of odour traces, so therefore he could be alerting to a tooth, or hair or a ripped off nail part or the other bodily fluid he was trained to detect. Those items may not necessarily have originated from a dead body, as Eddie also alerted to dried blood/body fluids from living people. The dogs do not know what they are alerting to - they only recognise the specific scent which they've been trained to find.

He could also be alerting to something that has been buried underground which had completely decomposed and had left only the residual scent, so there may not be anything left there to find - just the remaining odour.

It could also be that the place where the dog alerts is not the place of the original source, because cadaverscent drifts - depending on temperature etc. Martin Grime explains this in one of the videos. You will also notice if you listen to Grimes in his videos that when Keela alerted he said that IHO she had alerted to blood - because that is all she is trained to find. But when Eddie alerts he says that he has alerted ''to the things he has been trained to find'' He does not specify cadaverscent at that time - because without corroberration -i.e. either by a body or forensics - he does not know himself at that stage.

There are other factors to be taken into account i.e. Martin Grimes tells us that cadaverscent can be transferred from a body to other people or objects - so it cannot be automatically presumed that a dead body was ever at the place where the dog alerted. Apartment 5A was teeming with GNR police, their dogs, forensic people, the PJ officers, hotel staff, cleaners - also several other families who stayed there before Eddie searched it. Police in particular come into contact with dried blood and even dead bodies in the normal course of their duties. Therefore cross-contamination of 5A from innocent sources cannot be ruled out as being impossible.

Finally, Martin Grime has never claimed a 100% success rate. His only claim in respect of Eddies skills was that in 200 cases he had never wrongly identified cadaverscent from roadkill or food stuffs - and that is the only claim he makes for a 100% success rate.

He also acknowledges 'cueing' i.e. when a dog alerts because his owner either knowingly or unconsciously sends 'messages' to the dog via body language. This can happen when the handler himself believes he is in the right place and is expecting an alert from his dog.

It is because of all these factors that Martin Grime basically tells us not to jump to conclusions when an alert is made but no cadaver is found - as without evidence coming to light to corroberrate the alerts, no-one can say for sure which of all the different variables is the correct one.

The dogs are wonderful and are brilliant tools - but from what Martin Grime tells us - it's wrong to conclude that wherever a dog alerts, then it automatically follows that a cadaver was at that place. And he is the expert, not us.

Leafylane

Posts : 19
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-02-03

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Guest on 17.02.13 9:58

I don't know how many more times I have to post this. Eddie BARKS when alerting to cadaver scent, that is what he was trained to do, and that is how Grimes knows what he is alerting to. He doesn't bark when he detects blood, only 'dead body scent' according to this....



From the TRAINING section of Martin Grimes report...

Pavlov's theory is used in the
case of the E.V.R.D. system of alert. He has been 'conditioned' to give a
verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead body scent'


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm



What would be the point of having two dogs that might just alert to blood, the police would not know if a body had been there would they. Different training, different alerts for both dogs.

Also Eddie alerted by the wardrobe in the bedroom, and Keela didn't alert and detect any blood, that imo therefore must mean that Eddie was barking because he detected 'dead body scent'
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by saltnpepper on 17.02.13 10:10

If you search a cellar & a dead body is there then you dont need a dog,if the body has been in the cellar then removed...obviously to a secret location,then the dog will tell you that a dead body has been in the cellar,obviously you will see it has been removed,thats when you bring the blood dog in,if that dog finds nothing...you still know a dead human body was in the cellar,you could look for any amount of exscuses but to the investigation the cadaver dog has given you part of the answer
Lets say i was babysitting for you leafy & when you came back,your child was missing...i tell you that i was sleeping & i havn't got a clue where the child has gone...a cadaver dog signals in my wardrobe-i take it i would have your 100% backing?
avatar
saltnpepper

Posts : 154
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-04-30
Location : wales

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Guest on 17.02.13 10:18

I often wonder, if the dogs had alerted to someone else's house, i.e. , a person living not too far away, no names mentioned, would we be hearing all these arguments - dissing of the dogs, cueing of the trainer, etc. Of course we wouldn't, they would be 100 per cent correct then wouldn't they, they would be the best thing since sliced bread.
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by bobbin on 17.02.13 10:20

Re: Disinformation - the 25 Rules of




From happychick: Twenty-Five Ways To
Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation (Includes The 8 Traits of A
Disinformationalist) by H. Michael Sweeney. These 25 rules are everywhere in
media, from political debates, to television shows, to comments on a blog.





20. False evidence. Whenever possible,
introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with
opponent presentations as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede
resolution. This works best when the crime was designed with contingencies for
the purpose, and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications.

Leafylane has invoked many of
the 25 rules above,
but number 20 is the mainstay of his/her postings.

I notice that leafy had made
two posts prior to the attempt to detract (at great and repetitive effect) from the value of the 'dogs
findings' in what is clearly a continuously and unabatingly sensitive issue for the McCanns.


One post was to refer to
'Jeffries' being wrongly pillaried by the newspapers.

Yes 'Jeffries'
was wrongly pillaried, but the law as it stands enables him to achieve justice and
compensation.

It does not need a Gerry McCanning Law to prevent all
freedom of speech, with a silencing of the press, which Gerry so
desperately demonstrates he needs at the moment, now that Her Majesty's Guest House is looking like swinging its doors open, wider and wider, to
welcome worthy recipients.


I think happychick's
"Disinformation-the 25 rules of-" highlights absolutely what happens on
this discussion forum when threads become derailed and posters (sincere
constructive ones, here to attain justice for Madeleine) become accused
of being unfair to newbies.

New (serious) members are welcomed with open arms, to contribute to the pool of accumulating knowledge, to bring fresh views that might stimulate new thought.

The more the jigsaw is put together the more cornered
will be those that have carried out one of the worst crimes possible,
the neglecting and abusing of the welfare of a child who put her trust
in those that she should have been able to trust, namely her parents.

I suppose we should also welcome all disinformationalists too, in a bizarre sort of way, because they shine a light on the sensitive issues, the ones they want us to keep in the dark.


Well enlightenment is good, so
as long as we can refer to the '25 rules' to re-assure ourselves that
the direction in which we are heading is the right one (because it
causes fear, panic and verbal diarrhoeia as in the last leafy post).
Above all, if we are guilty of bullying, that will be self-evident, but defending a point is not bullying, it is defending a point.

We do not need to take 'accusations
of being bullies' as anything other than a distracting tactic from the
paid up wums or the growingly fearful/ self-interested, who see their hidden agendas coming into the light and their long term plans imploding like a house of cards.

bobbin

Posts : 2047
Reputation : 137
Join date : 2011-12-05

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by tigger on 17.02.13 10:34

Leafy wrote:
It could also be that the place where the dog alerts is not the place of the original source, because cadaverscent drifts - depending on temperature etc. Martin Grime explains this in one of the videos. You will also notice if you listen to Grimes in his videos that when Keela alerted he said that IHO she had alerted to blood - because that is all she is trained to find. But when Eddie alerts he says that he has alerted ''to the things he has been trained to find'' He does not specify cadaverscent at that time - because without corroberration -i.e. either by a body or forensics - he does not know himself at that stage
unquote.

Here one sees the danger of inferences from disjointed statements.

In short: The 'things' Eddie is trained to find is human cadaver odour. Therefore when he alerts to what he is trained to find it is cadaver odour. (And if as you agree, the dog has been right in 200 cases and he has only taken part in those 200 cases - that is actually a 100% success rate).

Corroboration and forensics: Keela alerted in the same place to blood. It was the only place she alerted whereas Eddie alerted in different places.
Forensics then found blood where Keela had, independently from Eddie, alerted. The only place in 5a where both dogs alerted was behind the sofa, where both blood and evidence of cleaning was found.
Additional circumstantial evidence shows that the sofa had been moved from its usual place to rest against the wall. Photographic evidence.

The sequence goes like this, the CSI dogs go over the place. Their handler marks the spots where they alert. The forensics move in (again) corroborative evidence is found:
Blood spatter on the walls and curtains and blood under the tiles is found.
Eddie alerts to the location where a large tennis bag was stored and has been missing since 3/5.
Clothing that Eddie alerted to is found to belong exclusively to one person. (apart from a child's T shirt)
Go figure.

____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.
avatar
tigger

Posts : 8114
Reputation : 44
Join date : 2011-07-20

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by sami on 17.02.13 10:39

candyfloss wrote:I often wonder, if the dogs had alerted to someone else's house, i.e. , a person living not too far away, no names mentioned, would we be hearing all these arguments - dissing of the dogs, cueing of the trainer, etc. Of course we wouldn't, they would be 100 per cent correct then wouldn't they, they would be the best thing since sliced bread.

I think so, yes.

One question I ask those who doubt the capabilities of these types of dogs. If you were sitting on a plane, on the runway ready to take off and explosives dog signalled to the possibility of explosives on board, would they be happy to remain on the plane ? If after a search nothing was found how comfortable would you be taking off on that flight ?

Personally, I would be re-booking another flight.

Yes Grimes clearly states that corroborative evidence is needed to prove the dogs findings. Of course he does and rightly so. The point is though when used correctly the dogs evidence is a very useful tool and in certain cases one that cannot be ignored. In this instance, a child disappears into thin air, her parents version of events must be checked out, something does not add up and the dogs have signalled. Only a fool would ignore the possibility that the child may have died.

What is interesting is that the McCanns immediately assumed it was they who were accused, the dogs neither said it was Madeleine, nor her parents. It they who made assumptions and indeed those who try to discredit the dogs make those very same assumptions. Those who understand how they work and have taken the time to understand the science of the dogs make no such assumptions.

The have simply provided another piece of the jigsaw that needs to be put into the puzzle.

Normal people would die if they thought a cadaver dog had indicated as they have, human nature makes you fear the worst. Interesting Healy and McCann were only hell bent on discrediting them, never a worry that they might be right.

sami

Posts : 965
Reputation : 53
Join date : 2012-04-08

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Tombraider on 17.02.13 12:13

Some useful info.


Decomposition begins within 5-15 minutes depending on environmental conditions of someone dying( clinical death) when protein synthesis in the body stops. This can be referred to as the “Fresh” stage of decomposition. With nothing to maintain the protective lining in the gut digestive enzymes begin eat the body from the inside out creating amino acids. While this is happening bacteria feed on those amino acids. This process produces chemicals such as ammonia and ptomaines, one commonly known as cavaderine. Research has been published which shows decomposition produces a complex mix of up to 478 volatile organic compounds, the exact combination of these compounds which the dogs detect is unknown.

Research has also proven that residual scent from a cadaver will last in a building with minimum environmental influences or human disturbance for at least 1 Year, even after the objects where the scent source originated had been removed.

Research has also been published the shows that trained dogs can detect “ Fresh “ remains (first stage), whether they are burned or not, which includes flesh with little change to the surface or exterior of the body and where there is no discoloration of the body. No smell is obvious to humans, but dogs will be able to detect fresh remains from a distance and where there is no insect activity is obvious.

Residual scent is that persisting in an area after the original source is no longer present.

Summary from MG’s –

- “ My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. “

- “The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area
being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible
evidence to be located only the remaining scent.”


The dog & handler work as a team, the handler can and usually does give the dog cue's, the reason for this is because the handler cannot simply say to the dog ' okay now go check the car boy ', the dog wouldn't have a clue what he was talking about. Often the scent is strong enough for the dogs to pick up without the handler having to give a cue but the dog is often given a signal or guided to an area of interest to search. Miscuing happens, for instance when the handler either gives a dog the wrong signal or the dog misinterprets the signal.

All British police dogs, irrespective of the discipline they are trained in, must be licensed to work operationally. To obtain the license they have to pass a test at the completion of their training, and then again every year until they retire. The standards required to become operational are laid down by the (ACPO) sub-committee on police dogs and are reviewed on a regular basis to ensure that training and licensing reflects the most appropriate methods & standards.Training records may be discoverable in court proceedings as evidence of the canine team’s reliability. Training records are necessary to illustrate canine team’s reliability, the type and amount of training that the team has experienced before and after certification. Confirmed operational outcomes can be used as a factor in determining capability.

Tombraider

Posts : 61
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-12-24

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by jd on 17.02.13 13:39

How can a dog sniff through concrete?

A child's remains were discovered under several inches of concrete at a former children's home in Jersey [Haut de la Garenne] after police bought in dogs to search the site. But how can they sniff through concrete?

For Eddie, it's all in a day's work.

When police suspected human remains were buried on the site of a former children's home in Jersey, the springer spaniel was part of the specialist team brought in to investigate.

Jersey Police said the seven-year-old dog located parts of a child's body even though they were buried under several inches of concrete. So how did he do it?

Eddie has worked with the FBI

Eddie is an enhanced victim recovery dog and is specially trained to detect the scent of human remains. He is able to smell through solid materials, like concrete, because of scientific training techniques.

It's this training that sets him apart from standard police sniffer dogs, which are able to detect human remains in shallow graves. The springer's nose is more sensitive and he is called in on more complicated cases.

Super sensitive
The specialist training techniques - which are highly confidential - were developed by Eddie's handler Martin Grime, along with the UK's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) and America's Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

They are scientifically based and rely on how dogs smell and the chemicals involved.

Canines are known for their outstanding sense of smell, estimated to be 10 times stronger than a human's. Like us they smell using special receptors in the nose, which react to tiny chemical scent particles in the atmosphere and send a message to the brain.

Dogs can smell so well because they have an estimated 200 million such receptors, compared to five million in a human nose. The extra receptors mean canines are able to distinguish between different smells much more acutely.

"We don't discuss what the training involves, but it's a lot more than putting bits of meat on the ground for them to hunt out," says Mr Grime, a retired South Yorkshire Police officer who now works as an independent consultant.

Focus
"A standard sniffer dog is like a basic tool. An enhanced dog goes through much more training and is a lot more discriminating about smells, basically its nose is super sensitive. It's also about getting the dog to really focus on a task."

While rare, Eddie and partner Keela are not the only enhanced victim recovery dogs in the UK. The Metropolitan Police and forces in Surrey and Greater Manchester have them. But what sets these two springers apart is that they work exclusively in this field, says Mr Grimes.

"Other dogs have to do other police duties but mine work full-time in this area, making them very sharp and highly skilled."

The dogs have been used by police forces across the world and were called in to help with the Madeleine McCann investigation.

Both are springer spaniels, but the breed is no better suited to the job than any other. A dog just needs to show a keen sense of smell and it's the training that makes them good enhanced victim recovery dogs, says Mr Grime.

Eddie was bred by a specialist search-dog breeder and Keela came from the West Midlands Police breeding programme.

Both live with Mr Grime and have a normal life outside of work. He is currently training two new dogs, Morse and Lewis.

In the Jersey case, parts of a child's body were found on Saturday. The remains are thought to date from the early 1980s. Police have yet to say whether they are male or female.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7263355.stm

____________________
Who pulled the strings?...THE SYMINGTONS..And the Scottish connections...Look no further if you dare
avatar
jd

Posts : 4152
Reputation : 21
Join date : 2011-07-22

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by jd on 17.02.13 13:54



And no cadaver/blood alerts anywhere or on anything else....100% only to the mccanns


____________________
Who pulled the strings?...THE SYMINGTONS..And the Scottish connections...Look no further if you dare
avatar
jd

Posts : 4152
Reputation : 21
Join date : 2011-07-22

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Inspectorfrost on 17.02.13 21:29

Thanks Tombraider for that information, I had never seen some of it before.

Leafylane, you didn't answer my questions, what's the problem?

never mind

Inspectorfrost

Posts : 841
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2012-12-09

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Ribisl on 17.02.13 23:13

Just for the record
@jd wrote:
[Note: Diagram above is incorrect as it indicates cadaver odour beside the bedroom window. The odour was actually found outside the patio doors 'in the flowerbed of the yard']

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

____________________
There is a taint of death, a flavour of mortality in lies... Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad

Ribisl

Posts : 807
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-02-04

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Leafylane on 18.02.13 7:39

@Inspectorfrost wrote:Thanks Tombraider for that information, I had never seen some of it before.

Leafylane, you didn't answer my questions, what's the problem?



My apols Inspector F, but apart from the fact that I don't have the time to answer a lot of posts, what would be the point? I would only be repeating myself, or rather repeating what Martin Grime has said, which is that without corroberrating evidence and because of a number of given scenarios it can only be a possibility that Eddie alerted to cadaverscent contaminant. The 'scenarios' mentioned are what I have described in my previous posts.

i.e.
Not being able to say whether the deposit is recent or ancient.
Not being able to say whether the scent is from the surface or from underground.
Not being able to say whether it was there because of direct contact or by innocent transferral.
No being able to say whether it was scent from a dead body or from body parts which may be from a live person.

A 'possibility' is not a 'certainty'. Therefore to claim that because Eddie alerted it is absolute proof that someone died in 5A is inaccurate. If it was definite proof then Martin Grime would have said so when he was asked for his opinion. But he couldn't because as he said ''no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts''.

QUOTE FROM MARTIN GRIME RE 5A

The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as evidence.

Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios
and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence.

END QUOTE

Quote from Martin Grime re the Renault.

This then produced an alert indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and barking.


It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent.
END QUOTE

The key fob was in the driver's door compartment,which could mean that Eddie was alerting to the scent of GM's dried blood on it - which would be just inches away from his nose on the other side of the door at the time of his alert - and to which Keela also alerted from inside the car.

Leafylane

Posts : 19
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-02-03

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by saltnpepper on 18.02.13 7:59

Hi Leafy it is banging heads on brick walls,what i would like to know & i respect your views...Eddie has alerted in places where a child was reported missing...in terms of percentage,how much do you believe in the McCann's innocence based on the cadaver dogs alert.
avatar
saltnpepper

Posts : 154
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-04-30
Location : wales

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by tigger on 18.02.13 8:19

' Eddie was alerting to the scent of GM's dried blood on it -' ???? (Leafy)
I've not read anywhere that Gerry had cut himself in any way or that the alert of Keela was explained in that way.
I'm willing to bet they wish they'd thought of it though!

You're right that the indications by the dogs have to be backed up with forensics. That's where the plot thickens alarmingly.
Too many 'coincidences' e.g. of all the samples processed by the lab, the samples were contaminated by staff (safeguards and DNA profile of all staff is on record to prevent such an event). Not one, but two results were given of the samples. The first were positive for Madeleine's blood, the second report plays it down to put it mildly.
Soon afterwards the samples were ditched. Hairs were not analysed - some on the grounds that no root was present and full spectrum DNA could not be extracted. Recently new methods have overcome this. Just because of this likely advance in scientific methods all samples are normally kept.

The killers of Stephen Lawrence were convicted after more than a decade on the evidence of LC DNA. Because all evidential material had been preserved. Which is normal practice. Even the A6 murderer 's- Hanratty - (1950's) DNA was available to prove half a century later that he was guilty.
So why was all the material to do with Madeleine McCanns' disappearance which was sent to the FSS lab destroyed?

There has been a recent case in Scotland where the CSI dogs alerted to cadaver odour, where there has been a conviction without a body being found. It is not the case that a body has to be found in order to secure a conviction.


____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.
avatar
tigger

Posts : 8114
Reputation : 44
Join date : 2011-07-20

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Leafylane on 18.02.13 8:42

@saltnpepper wrote:Hi Leafy it is banging heads on brick walls,what i would like to know & i respect your views...Eddie has alerted in places where a child was reported missing...in terms of percentage,how much do you believe in the McCann's innocence based on the cadaver dogs alert.

I wouldn't like to say Saltnpepper, because I do have a problem as to why the dogs did not alert in other apartments or other cars, as that would seem to fly in the face of what Martin Grime tells us about the extent of his dogs skills. Unfortunately only Martin Grime can give us the answer to that apparent anomaly.

Leafylane

Posts : 19
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-02-03

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Leafylane on 18.02.13 8:55

@tigger wrote:' Eddie was alerting to the scent of GM's dried blood on it -' ???? (Leafy)
I've not read anywhere that Gerry had cut himself in any way or that the alert of Keela was explained in that way

Tigger, both dogs alerted to the Keyfob. Forensics identified Gerry's DNA only on it. Without looking at the FSS files I can't remember whether they actually identified the cellular material they tested as blood or not, but as we know that Keela and Eddie both alerted to dried blood, I think it is reasonable to assume that it was his blood they alerted to.

Leafylane

Posts : 19
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-02-03

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by tigger on 18.02.13 11:10

Leafy wrote: The key fob was in the driver's door compartment,which could mean that Eddie was alerting to the scent of GM's dried blood on it - which would be just inches away from his nose on the other side of the door at the time of his alert - and to which Keela also alerted from inside the car. unquote

Eddie only alerts to cadaver odour, Keela alerts to blood.


quote from FSS report:
An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key - (286C/2007-CRL (12)). I guess this is the fob of the car-keys . unquote.

The fact that both dogs alerted would mean that both cadaver odour and blood was present on the key fob as well as genetic material which was probably that of GM.
It does not follow that both the cadaver odour and the blood are Gerry's, or that only the blood is that of Gerry and the cadaver odour must then be discounted. DNA was extracted from cellular material. Had it been extracted from traces of blood the report would have stated this. DNA can be extracted from epithelial cells etc.
There is no record whatsoever of GM's blood being present anywhere, or of Gerry having cut himself.


I just had a look on STM site. Perhaps that's where you're getting your information from?

____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.
avatar
tigger

Posts : 8114
Reputation : 44
Join date : 2011-07-20

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by saltnpepper on 18.02.13 16:11

@Leafylane wrote:
@saltnpepper wrote:Hi Leafy it is banging heads on brick walls,what i would like to know & i respect your views...Eddie has alerted in places where a child was reported missing...in terms of percentage,how much do you believe in the McCann's innocence based on the cadaver dogs alert.

I wouldn't like to say Saltnpepper, because I do have a problem as to why the dogs did not alert in other apartments or other cars, as that would seem to fly in the face of what Martin Grime tells us about the extent of his dogs skills. Unfortunately only Martin Grime can give us the answer to that apparent anomaly.

Ok thanks...this is quite a problem you have,keela can scent blood that has been cleaned,scrubbed etc so if eddie is of the same ilk,he would be barking in every building there is...the way i see it is-obviously if foul play is suspected there will be no sign of a body,the police ask for a cadaver dog,if he reacts to the scent he is trained for,then you bring in a blood dog to give the investigation pointers for forensics
Ok another scenario to try & explain...i kill someone with a knife,they obviously bleed,i leave the body for a few hours,clean up & remove the body...what happens when the cadaver dog signals & the blood dog alerts in the same place...with your theory no one died there was just blood,which is excellent news for me as i will be free to kill again...hope i explained ok
avatar
saltnpepper

Posts : 154
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-04-30
Location : wales

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Ribisl on 18.02.13 19:16

@Leafylane
Since you don't appear to follow some simple logic, let me copy my earlier post in another thread which was in reply to yours.

@Ribisl wrote:
@Leafylane wrote:

Martin Grime's statement they can alert to ''dried blood from a live human being'' seems pretty unambiguous to me. And surely the dogs proved him to be correct when they both alerted to the key fob. Forensics found Gerry McCanns blood on it - therefore proving they had correctly alerted to dried blood from a living person.

I think you are right in saying that Keela cannot distinguish whether the source of the blood sample is alive or deceased. That's why Eddie went in first to locate traces of cadaver scent before Keela went in search for the existence of human blood. It would then be reasonable to assume that those locations where both dogs alerted must indicate the existence of blood trace associated with a dead body.

Eddie and Keela together established that there was a cadaver in 5A and in the Scenic, and PJ reported that there had been no death reported in the same apartment prior to May 2007. But without obtaining a DNA match from the blood sample, it cannot be concluded that the blood was Madeleine's and therefore she must be dead. Sadly for her, what followed was a sequence of missed opportunities and obstruction of justice.

____________________
There is a taint of death, a flavour of mortality in lies... Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad

Ribisl

Posts : 807
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-02-04

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Inspectorfrost on 18.02.13 21:23

Leafyane, Mr Grime nor anyone else in the force has suggested that Eddie alerts to body parts or fluids from living people, that is overegging the pudding. You also did not give reference to how Eddie shouldnt be called a cadaver dog (even if the police say he was) as he also is deployed to recover live victims.
QUOTE
Mark Harrison, National Search Advisor:
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
UNQUOTE

In another part of the report, some backround to these dogs

QUOTE
Victim recovery dogs (VRDs) are also known as body or cadaver dogs. They are used in many countries to assist the police in locating concealed human remains. In the UK, police dogs are used that are trained and licensed to a national standard.

Pig carcasses are used to train the dogs in the UK as it is not legal to use human cadavers. This is an established training method and enables the dogs to successfully detect human remains in operational case work.

Enhanced training to produce a EVRD.

The training of a VRD provides an alert response using Ivan Pavlov's theory of producing a conditioned reflex, in this case barking, to the presence of detected decomposing human/pig flesh, bone, body fluid and blood. The dog will bark, whether or not it is able to get to the source of the scent. The benefit of this reflex is that the dog will respond whenever the target scent is present.
This enables the dog to be used in an investigative role, assisting experts in other fields, such as, geophysics.

An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers which were buried on land and submerged underwater. This took place in America and facilitated by the FBI at the University of Tennessee.

The scent detection threshold of the dog is greatly enhanced. In operational deployment and in training, the dog is successful in detecting human remains, body fluids and blood, to cellular levels that can be recovered by low copy
analysis at forensic laboratories.

The proven capability of the EVRD is to :

Search to locate very small samples of human remains, body fluids and blood in any environment or terrain. ETC ETC
UNQUOTE

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
---------------------

Now, nowhere in any of that is there reference to scenting for living people or their body parts,, but their decomposed remains or the remnant scent. You are right that there is no proof as accepted in law but you just cannot say the dogs are irrelevant or the findings not justifiable suspicion at the least.




You also may be interested in this little gem

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3315-interesting-from-spudgun-re-martin-grimes

PS nowhere in the FSS report is it stated that the blood on the car key card was identified as Gerry's. Some markers were consistent with Gerry's profile, but then they said the sample from behind the sofa matched some of Madeleine's markers, but I don't hear, let alone emphatically, oh they found Madeleine's blood behind the sofa.

And for good measure, Eddie was not trained to alert to fruit and vegetables, hence putting an end to the ridiculous myth that he alerted to a coconut shell in Jersey. Police and others never had a problem with these dogs before or after the Mccann and Jersey cases, I find that extremely suss, don't you?

ETA Even to the most open minded, if it was some wierd fluke of the universe that the scent alerted to had nothing to do with the last place a missing person was seen, that would be the unluckiest mother of all coincidences to be found just there and nowhere else.

Inspectorfrost

Posts : 841
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2012-12-09

Back to top Go down

Re: For the record on Eddie the cadaver dog

Post by Leafylane on 19.02.13 8:10

@tigger wrote:Leafy wrote: The key fob was in the driver's door compartment,which could mean that Eddie was alerting to the scent of GM's dried blood on it - which would be just inches away from his nose on the other side of the door at the time of his alert - and to which Keela also alerted from inside the car. unquote

Eddie only alerts to cadaver odour, Keela alerts to blood.


quote from FSS report:
An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key - (286C/2007-CRL (12)). I guess this is the fob of the car-keys . unquote.

The fact that both dogs alerted would mean that both cadaver odour and blood was present on the key fob as well as genetic material which was probably that of GM.
It does not follow that both the cadaver odour and the blood are Gerry's, or that only the blood is that of Gerry and the cadaver odour must then be discounted. DNA was extracted from cellular material. Had it been extracted from traces of blood the report would have stated this. DNA can be extracted from epithelial cells etc.
There is no record whatsoever of GM's blood being present anywhere, or of Gerry having cut himself.


I just had a look on STM site. Perhaps that's where you're getting your information from?

Both dogs alert to blood from a live human being. Martin Grimes says so - not me.

I did say the blood 'could be' GMs. He was the main driver of the car.

If it wasn't dried blood on the fob, then as Keela only alerts to blood, that would mean she gave 2 false alerts to the key fob.

I get my 'information' from the official PJ files.

Leafylane

Posts : 19
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-02-03

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum