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Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by HiDeHo on 02.01.18 19:37

@Doug D wrote:Phoebe:
 
‘On the night of the "abduction" (as I understood it) Jane was heading to her apartment to "relieve" Russell as he was already inside. Therefore, it would make sense for her to enter via the patio doors.’
 
Good logic, but unfortunately Russell had left the apartment at (JT) 21.00, (20.45 according to Russell) having got Elle to sleep, so she allegedly went back to check a few minutes later.


SUPPOSEDLY, Matt and Russell went back to the apartments at around 9.25pm  Matt returned but Rusell stayed.

Jane SUPPOSEDLY went to relieve him (from memory 9.40pm) and Jane remained in the apartment until after the disappearance...

Russell stayed until approximately 5-10 mins before the disappearance and went back to the tapas for his steak.

They were BOTH in their apartment from 9.40pm - 9.50pm approx (supposedly)
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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by HiDeHo on 02.01.18 19:43

Lets not forget that Jez Wilkins claims that on WEDNESDAY, Gerry went to the tapas with Russell.

Not with Russell and Jane... so where was Jane?

Jez was told that Kate was putting the children to bed... Was Jane with her?

Were they really putting the children to bed?

According to the quiz mistress she does not remember seeing Kate at the tapas on TUESDAY between approx 9pm and 10pm although there was  a place setting.

We have no confirmation that Kate was at the tapas either Tuesday night or Wednesday night

Could this have been a time of grieving?

No-one really knows about Monday night except Kate claims in her diary that they were all at the tapas.
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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by polyenne on 02.01.18 19:51

Obfuscation is good, yes ?!

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 02.01.18 21:01

@Phoebe wrote:On the night of the "abduction" (as I understood it) Jane was heading to her apartment to "relieve" Russell as he was already inside. Therefore, it would make sense for her to enter via the patio doors. If Russell was inside, in the sitting room, he would hear her at the patio door and slide it across to let her in. Why would she walk all the way around and knock at the front door when she could take the quick cut to the back? As I understand her statement she, having eaten, was going to her apartment to change places with her husband so that he could have his meal, so logically, she would have taken the shortest route. If she did so, she would not have passed Jez and Gerry nor been close enough to see the "abductor" at the top of the road. That being said, I take all of the Tapas groups testimony re that night with a full salt cellar.


Jane Tanner's witness statement - 4th May 2007 [snipped]..

The witness went for dinner at the Tapas restaurant at about 20.30.

At about 21.00 her husband arrived at the restaurant, having got E**e to sleep.

She remembers that at about 21.10 Gerald left the restaurant (3) to go to the apartment to check on the children.

Five minutes later, the witness left, to go to her apartment to see whether her daughters were OK. At this moment she saw Gerry talking to an Englishman called Jez whom they had got to know during the holidays.

After checking on her daughters, she returned to the restaurant.

About 15-20 minutes later, her husband Russell and Matthew left to check on the children. As her daughter E**e was restless and crying, Russell stayed in the apartment.

After having quickly eaten her main course, the witness went to her apartment in order to take over from Russell, so that he could have his dinner.

Jane Tanner's witness statement - 10th May 2010  [snipped]



She left the apartment and went to the Tapas, for dinner, around 20h30.

Around 21h00 her husband arrived at the restaurant, Ev, meanwhile, having fallen asleep.

About 21h10, GM left the restaurant having gone to the apartment to see his children.

Five or ten minutes later the deponent left, having gone to her apartment to check that all was well with her girls. At that time she observed GM talking to an English citizen called Jez that they had met on these holidays.

After having gone to see the child she returned to the restaurant.

Between 15 to 20 minutes later her husband ROB and MO left, together, and went to see their respective children. As her daughter Ev was restless and crying ROB stayed in the bedroom.

After having quickly eaten the main course she went to the apartment to take the place of her husband so that he could finish his meal. Her husband returned to the restaurant.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 02.01.18 21:12

@HiDeHo wrote:According to the quiz mistress she does not remember seeing Kate at the tapas on TUESDAY between approx 9pm and 10pm although there was  a place setting.
Your wording is misleading, you have paraphrased in such a way that that it implies a situation that wasn't necessarily so.  Only a subtle difference but implies a whole new meaning to something that could have been quite innocuous.

Najoua Chekaya witness statement - 9th May 2007

In the afternoon she began work at 15.20 next to the Millenium until 16.15 and then returned to the Tapas restaurant until 17.15 and then to the Millenium restaurant from 17.30 to 18.00. She finished at about 18.15 and returned to the Tapas Bar for dinner and at 21.00 did a kind of quiz with the guests who were having dinner in the restaurant.

She remembers that last Tuesday at the end of the quiz, she was invited to the table of nine guests who asked her to join them for a drink.

She was at their table for about fifteen to twenty minutes and it was there that she met

Madeleine's father, who directly invited her to the table, however, she does not know whether Madeleines mother was also there.

When questioned, she said that they talked of banalities and she did not notice any aspect or behaviour that was out of the ordinary.

When questioned, she said that during the time that she was there Madeleines father did not leave the table, neither did any of the other guests, however, during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left, not managing to indicate any identifying element about this person.

When questioned, she said she was at the table from about 21.30 to 21.50.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 02.01.18 23:29



12th May 2007

Not much grieving going on at that juncture.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Basil with a brush on 02.01.18 23:44

@polyenne wrote:But, if you subscribe to the theory that Madeleine met her fate sometime early in the week (or even the Sunday) then you might believe that the whole point of the Tapas dinners was to discuss and agree about the proposed cover-up. That means most, if not all, parties being present at the same time.

I'm not subscribing to any particular day that she vanished, or any theory as it to how that happened. I'm still uncertain of this. I'm only going by them stating a door to their apartment wasn't locked. I can't go by what any of the other friends did with the locks on their doors because they didn't lose any children, so that is irrelevant. Be it roadside door or poolside door. Back door or front door. Roof door, side door. Any door. The problem I have is that they state that the apartment was unsecured. Bizarre! What use is that? No use! They are intelligent people and so it's a big fat lie.

Think I was just trying to say, that along with the right to remain silent when questioned, this was another major blooper.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 03.01.18 0:22

No way would the McCanns or any of their friends leave their apartments unlocked whilst going out to eat - even without children you just wouldn't do it.  Anyone with an ounce of savvy knows that crime is rife in any area with a high concentration of tourists, I can't think of anything more ridiculous.

Going along with this ridiculous notion and the theory that Madeleine genuinely disappeared on the night of 3rd May, according to one of the McCann versions of the truth, they left the patio door open to allow access for their friends to check their (the McCanns) three children.  According to the group of friends, they all checked their own children by way of the front door and it seems, only checked the McCanns children on the night of the 3rd May - depending in which version you notice.   It was even said by Oldfield that he listened at the window of the McCann children's bedroom - again nearest to the front door.

Why then would they walk to their front doors to check their own children and then walk around the block to check on the McCanns children, through the patio door?

Humbug - it exasperates me!

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 03.01.18 0:40

Gerry McCann at 21.05 pm - Thursday 3rd May:


He entered apartment using his key, the door being locked, and went to childrens' room and noted that M and twins were OK. Took several minutes to go to toilet. Left apartment and bumped into someone he played tennis with and had brief conversation. Then returned to Tapas.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 03.01.18 0:59

Rachael Oldfield rogatory interview - April 2008

I was ill on the Tuesday night, erm so on Wednesday, actually on Wednesday it was raining anyway, so I think all, all the tennis lessons and everything were cancelled, erm but so I was ill so, I was in bed'.

Matt Oldfield rogatory interview - April 2008

I mean, Rachael became ill on the Tuesday night.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by HiDeHo on 03.01.18 1:09

@Verdi wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:According to the quiz mistress she does not remember seeing Kate at the tapas on TUESDAY between approx 9pm and 10pm although there was  a place setting.
Your wording is misleading, you have paraphrased in such a way that that it implies a situation that wasn't necessarily so.  Only a subtle difference but implies a whole new meaning to something that could have been quite innocuous.

Najoua Chekaya witness statement - 9th May 2007

In the afternoon she began work at 15.20 next to the Millenium until 16.15 and then returned to the Tapas restaurant until 17.15 and then to the Millenium restaurant from 17.30 to 18.00. She finished at about 18.15 and returned to the Tapas Bar for dinner and at 21.00 did a kind of quiz with the guests who were having dinner in the restaurant.

She remembers that last Tuesday at the end of the quiz, she was invited to the table of nine guests who asked her to join them for a drink.

She was at their table for about fifteen to twenty minutes and it was there that she met

Madeleine's father, who directly invited her to the table, however, she does not know whether Madeleines mother was also there.

When questioned, she said that they talked of banalities and she did not notice any aspect or behaviour that was out of the ordinary.

When questioned, she said that during the time that she was there Madeleines father did not leave the table, neither did any of the other guests, however, during this time one of the chairs was always empty, that of someone who had had dinner and left, not managing to indicate any identifying element about this person.

When questioned, she said she was at the table from about 21.30 to 21.50.

I agree that 'remember' is not the wording used by Najoua but there is a suggestion the empty place may have been Kate's (but she is not certain) as she is not sure if she met her there that night.
 
Rightly or wrongly, I interpreted that as she did not remember seeing Kate there that night.

'That she recalls there being an empty place [seat] at the table, not being certain if it had been Madeleine's mother's place given that she is not sure if they had met each other there at that time.'

07-Processo Volume 7 pages 1841 to 1842 JUNE 20th 2007 Witness statement of Najoua Chekaya

Witness statement: Najoua Chekaya
Date: 20 June 2007 Time: 16h00 Place: Praia da Luz - Lagos
Officer: Jose Ricardo, Inspector
To the matter at hand she said:
--- She appears as a witness. Being a British national she does not not know the Portuguese
language in oral or written form, there being present, therefore, an interpreter Sra. Lidia N., PJ
employee/officer from DRPD/ADT.
--- In accordance with the statements made by her in this case, on 9 May 2007, she confirms it
having been on the Tuesday, 1 May 2007, that she was invited to the table of the group of which
the McCann couple were part, by Gerry himself.
--- That she recalls there being an empty place [seat] at the table, not being certain if it had been Madeleine's mother's place given that she is not sure if they had met each other there at that time.
--- The photographs of the group of the McCann's friends having been shown to her, the deponent
declares that from those photos seen she has some reservations about David Payne [in that] while
she thinks he was also there, she had not noted his presence.
--- The question asked she declares not being certain who was missing from the group.
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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Basil with a brush on 03.01.18 1:20

@Verdi wrote:No way would the McCanns or any of their friends leave their apartments unlocked whilst going out to eat - even without children you just wouldn't do it.  Anyone with an ounce of savvy knows that crime is rife in any area with a high concentration of tourists, I can't think of anything more ridiculous.
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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by HiDeHo on 03.01.18 1:23

Why would Ella be having a bath in Rachael and Matt's apartment?

Rachaels rogatory interview


[Referring to Thursday] 'can't remember whether that night Ella and, Ella might have had a bath in our apartment with Grace, not sure, I think it might have been that night, but we headed back, yeah probably about half seven, half seven, twenty to eight, which was kind of later than we would normally'. 
 1578 'Who's we'' 
 Reply 'Erm well Grace and I went back to our apartment and Jane went back with Ella and Evie to theirs and Diane and Fi and Lilly and Scarlet went up to theirs, erm'. 


1578 'Leaving the men to continue'' 
 Reply 'Yeah continue their tennis. Erm I mean it would have been about seven thirty, maybe even a bit later, maybe about twenty to eight, I mean it was certainly later than normal, cos normally because they're in bed by half seven, erm went back to the apartment, I think Ella came and had a bath with Grace in our apartment, erm you know we often kind of went into each others apartments, sort of around bed time or just before, or just after, erm so I think Ella and Grace had a bath, erm and then I think we were reading books in the lounge area of our apartment and erm Matt came back from tennis'
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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by HiDeHo on 03.01.18 1:32

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 03.01.18 1:32

In all my years, never have I stayed in an hotel that hasn't had either a) a combination safe in the room or b) a safety deposit box at the hotel's exchange kiosk.

Admittedly neither would have been large enough to accommodate a child but I guess the proprietors didn't figure on responsible parents leaving their precious offspring in an unlocked room, otherwise they might - just might - have offered a baby sitting service.

Hogwash!

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 03.01.18 1:51

Rachael Oldfield's rogatory interview - April 2008

1578 'Okay, and the route taken''

Reply 'Was up the road and then in through the car park at the back and in through the front door'.


1578 'In through the front door'' 

Reply 'Mmm yeah, I mean the patio doors were locked, erm yeah I didn't really like going up there by myself, it was, like going through that car park was quite dark and there was never anyone around, it was a bit, you know made me feel a bit uneasy'.


1578 'Okay. What about the lighting there''

 Reply 'Well there were lights, there were street lights along the road as you came out of the Ocean Club, erm sort of orangey you know street lights and along the main road at the back and the car park was quite dark cos there were quite a lot of trees that were sort of on that corner, erm and so the car park was quite dark and then when you actually got, you came down a ramp, or down some steps into the sort of area in front of the apartments and erm you know they were, there were sort of lights, you press a button and they come on for a certain length of time, so you know, you put those on to get to the front door, it wasn't pitch black but I'm not keen on the dark anyway so erm'.

Kate McCann   [circa. May 2007-January 2018]

You know - it felt so safe.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Phoebe on 03.01.18 1:55

On the Tuesday night (May1st) the Tapas bar (which was soooo busy that it needed to be booked in advance) had only the following customers after 7pm - 2 Thornhills, 3 Totmans and 4 Weinburgers, all booked for 7p.m.  An hour later at 8p.m. another 4 people showed up, 2 Fosters, 2 McKenzies. The only remaining customers (as per the booking sheets) were the McCann & friends group of nine who were booked for eight thirty. Who exactly took part in this quizz? Those booked for seven, especially if they had children in tow, were highly unlikely to have waited from seven until nine p.m. for the quizz to begin. It's possible the Fosters and McKenzies were still there at 9 p.m. but how were teams divided? Did the tapas 9 subdivide into teams of 3 twos and a three to take on the Fosters and McKenzies or did the latter combine to make a four to take on teams of four and five from the McCann group? With so few diners would a quizz really go ahead, especially as the McCann group would have been trying to order food and drink and actually eat during it? The whole thing sounds crazy!

Sorry I should add that the Manns (2) and the Bullens (4) had also booked for 7.15p.m. although they appear to have booked somewhat out of sequence? I cannot imagine a group dwadling for two hours over what was, in effect, pub-grub, (especially if they had youngsters with them) and then deciding to hang on from 9p.m. to 9.30pm just to take part in a pub quizz! There was no other entertainment to amuse them, no musician/singer, magic show, karaoke etc. It must have been boring, cold and uncomfortable.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 03.01.18 2:17

HiDeHo @ #89

As I previously said, where did Mr Amaral get this information from?

NB:  Perhaps tonight's hidden entity might have an answer - rather than customarily dipping in and out of the forum, operating behind the scenes as it were.
You can't pull the wool over the eyes of an admin winkwink .

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by HiDeHo on 03.01.18 5:49

@Verdi wrote:HiDeHo @ #89

As I previously said, where did Mr Amaral get this information from?

NB:  Perhaps tonight's hidden entity might have an answer - rather than customarily dipping in and out of the forum, operating behind the scenes as it were.
You can't pull the wool over the eyes of an admin winkwink .

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying regarding 'hidden entity'.

Mr Amaral was the co-ordinator and was privy to a lot more information than was given in the files.

During an interview, Im sure he was not fully aware of ALL the released information and is privy to far more than we know



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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 03.01.18 12:02

@HiDeHo wrote:Mr Amaral was the co-ordinator and was privy to a lot more information than was given in the files.

During an interview, Im sure he was not fully aware of ALL the released information and is privy to far more than we know
The interview was well over eight years ago - I'm getting impatient for Mr Amaral to reveal all.

It is however interesting to note.  I haven't yet seen anything to suggest Mr Amaral, as case coordinator nor since his removal, has progressed beyond the 'disappearance' on the night of 3rd May 2007 theory, as nurtured by the McCanns and their holiday group.

As I've said before, his theorizing has surely developed since the summer of 2007 over and beyond what was laid out by the group conspirators?  It's perplexing as 'The Truth of the Lie' nor the subsequent documentary show any signs of a deviation from the original investigation.  I've always excused this as the PJ, under Mr Amaral's leadership, were prevented from pursuing their investigation by outside pressure, so restricted from continuing a routine police investigation.  He is no longer under restraint so I can't see any logical reason why all can't be revealed, so to speak.

I'm really anxious to learn. 

With the help of the diligence of CMoMM and associates, his assumed secreted knowledge of the case could be intertwined and thus lead to a very positive outlook for 2018!

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by polyenne on 03.01.18 12:08

Verdi, who was “the entity” constantly dipping in and out ?

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Phoebe on 03.01.18 12:45

I have a sneaking feeling that the quiz might not have actually taken place due to the small number of diners. Perhaps Miss Chekaya turned up to the Tapas as scheduled and, realizing there were too few diners and too little interest to hold the quiz, approached the McCanns' table to engage in a little "hostessing" type small talk instead, bearing the bottle of wine which was allegedly the winners' prize. Perhaps that is why they asked if she would like to join them for a drink? I cannot imagine any other scenario in wherein a group of nine would feel the need to invite a complete stranger over to join their table. As far as I know she gave no real details about the quiz - who played who, who won etc. Gerry McCann has been described by many as loud, extroverted, a joker and so on, yet she makes no reference to his behaviour. I would imagine that during a quiz he would be hard to overlook, eg  crowing if he won and teasing others for any wrong answers, yet there is no report of this. I have been on many holidays when a quiz formed a part of the night's entertainment but there were large numbers, it took a while to organize team tables, we all swapped to correct each others' answer sheets and so on. Something about this tale does not ring true. Perhaps it would have looked bad for her if her quiz duties seemed redundant so she implied it went as planned and the Tapas 9 went along as it suited their agenda for other reasons?

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 03.01.18 12:54

@Phoebe wrote:  I cannot imagine any other scenario in wherein a group of nine would feel the need to invite a complete stranger over to join their table.
I can - at least from a Gerry 'Jack the lad' McCann point of view..

      sarcastic

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Julie R on 03.01.18 14:07

Funny that DW does not sound overly sure about which was her apartment and whether it had a poolside entrance: 

4078    ”If you could just begin by just describe, telling me where your apartment was in relation to the other apartments, just so that I can get a picture of it.”
 Reply    ”Right, well ours err Kate and Gerry’s was the end apartment on the ground floor
...
4078    ”How did you get to your apartment? What was the route that you had to take?”
 Reply    ”Err well we went err we generally went err right up to the end of the, we went through the front entrance if you like, not the, not the entrance that overlooked the, err pool or anything, I don’t think there was an entrance. We didn’t have a, we only had one exit really apart from the, err because veranda you couldn’t go anywhere.”


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Phoebe on 03.01.18 14:13

Well, she certainly has something to offer  big grin. My real point, I suppose, is that I cannot fathom her lack of certainty over the number of people at the Tapas 9 table. If she had actually run a quiz surely she should have a clear idea of the number of players on each team? If there was only eight at the McCanns' table then that would have resulted in even teams - two teams of four or four teams of two. I cannot imagine they competed as individuals! Why would she have to rely on remembering place settings to recall the number present?

Phoebe

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