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Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by skyrocket on 13.10.15 10:09

@ Pennylane - thanks, you're quite correct. yes

Did it in a rush!
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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by pennylane on 13.10.15 10:12

@skyrocket wrote:@ Pennylane - thanks, you're quite correct. yes

Did it in a rush!
You're welcome x

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by PUREsharon on 27.12.17 21:45

I think the night the a supposed child was herd crying i think that was the night maddie had an accident and died and i think it was actually kate that was crying.
Also If the whole group had left there children alone i think social services would have been involved and children put on the at risk register in my opinion they where not left it was just to help the made up story of the window of opportunity the same window the the abductor was to later climb through after entering through a open door.

Just think how stupid this sounds they want you to believe that an abductor opened the unlocked door entered saw the children went back outside jemmied the window went back in got maddie and left through the jemmied window leaving no dna, no fingerprints.
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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Basil with a brush on 28.12.17 1:12

Absolutely not. No children left alone on any night of that short holiday.

Children of that age don't get left alone on a longer holiday, so for sure they wouldn't for a short one.


You see, the possibility of bad parents that leave children of that age alone, I can only figure is at around 1%. So fairly decent parents doing it, is pretty much non existent, and I think they'd fall into the 'Fairly decent' catergory, whatever else you may think of them.


Really think about that for a moment.


With that said, it then becomes impossible to believe she was really ever left at all.

That leaves just the possibility she was harmed by one of her parents. Accidents happen. Bad accidents happen too.


The only plausible explanation left for the decision to engage with the lie and cover up of the century is because the child would be exposed for previous neglect and a huge chance of sexual abuse.


There is no interview with them, tv show, news item, or other, where I have been convinced of their innocence about the knowledge of what happened to their daughter. This is just my silly old intuition, and I'm no detective, but below, 99.9% of people would surely agree....


No innocent mother or father in the disappearance of their child, under any duress, scrutiny, intimidation, or the like...........refuses to answer questions, however many times they are asked, however probing, by the lawful organisation trying to find them. Period. You just wouldn't do it.


Apologies for repeating myself time over in that last paragraph. It's just that it speaks louder to me than any shred of forensic evidence, or at a push, video evidence of it popping up


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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by sharonl on 28.12.17 10:55

The sleeping arrangements for the kids are questionable, with cots\beds being moved around, extra ones requested etc.

It was suggested during the investigation that all the children were being cared for in one apartment.

The big red flag for me was the fact that out of nine adults, only eight were ever at the tapas, one staying behind each night. I find it a bit odd that they took it in turns to have the stomach upset. One person per night, with an upset stomach, never two or more people and not once were they all together at the Tapas.

The kids left alone claim had to be made to add credibility to the abduction story. This couldn't have happened if the McCanns or other adults were with their children.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by nglfi on 28.12.17 11:15

Basil, how do you square being 'fairly decent parents' with 'previous neglect and a huge chance of sexual abuse'?

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 28.12.17 15:59

@sharonl wrote:The sleeping arrangements for the kids are questionable, with cots\beds  being moved around, extra  ones requested etc.

It was suggested during the investigation that all the children were being cared for in one apartment.

The big red flag for me was the fact that out of nine adults, only eight were ever at the tapas, one staying behind each night.  I find it a bit odd that they took it in turns to have the stomach upset.  One person per night, with an upset stomach, never two or more people and not once were they all together at the Tapas.

The kids left alone claim had to be made to add credibility to the abduction story.  This couldn't have happened if the McCanns or other adults were with their children.
At the risk of repeating myself - add to that the unlikely event of a grandmother (Dianne Webster) agreeing to an arrangement to leave her own grandchildren alone every night in an unfamiliar environment, with or without a baby monitor!

It doesn't bear thinking about.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by polyenne on 28.12.17 18:37

Let’s assume that something terrible, accidental even, happened to Madeleine early that holiday. For whatever reason, the Tapas 9 then had a number of days to concoct and understand a complex scenario. This scenario really needed them all to be together and what better time than at dinner in the evening (as they all had to appear to be having a “normal” holiday during the day). Thus the children were all  together in one apartment being cared for, on rotation, by one of the Tapas 9.
That makes it very difficult for that particular evenings “carer” to be kept fully briefed on the evenings ideas/decisions. Is this why all the (very helpful) inconsistencies appear ?

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by JohnyT on 28.12.17 21:27

@Basil with a brush wrote:Absolutely not. No children left alone on any night of that short holiday.

Children of that age don't get left alone on a longer holiday, so for sure they wouldn't for a short one.


You see, the possibility of bad parents that leave children of that age alone, I can only figure is at around 1%. So fairly decent parents doing it, is pretty much non existent, and I think they'd fall into the 'Fairly decent' catergory, whatever else you may think of them.


Really think about that for a moment.


With that said, it then becomes impossible to believe she was really ever left at all.

That leaves just the possibility she was harmed by one of her parents. Accidents happen. Bad accidents happen too.


The only plausible explanation left for the decision to engage with the lie and cover up of the century is because the child would be exposed for previous neglect and a huge chance of sexual abuse.


There is no interview with them, tv show, news item, or other, where I have been convinced of their innocence about the knowledge of what happened to their daughter. This is just my silly old intuition, and I'm no detective, but below, 99.9% of people would surely agree....


No innocent mother or father in the disappearance of their child, under any duress, scrutiny, intimidation, or the like...........refuses to answer questions, however many times they are asked, however probing, by the lawful organisation trying to find them. Period. You just wouldn't do it.


Apologies for repeating myself time over in that last paragraph. It's just that it speaks louder to me than any shred of forensic evidence, or at a push, video evidence of it popping up


Basil
?? I'm confused by your post. So, you're saying that they are fairly decent parents as in not leaving the children alone but they would cover an accidental death up or maybe even previous sexual abuse? That doesn't make them sound like decent parents to me.
She was advised by her lawyer not to answer questions.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Basil with a brush on 29.12.17 1:57

Apologies to 'nglfi' and 'Johnny T'.


To be more clear, fairly decent catergory being those who generally feed, clothe, try to teach to some degree, take on holiday, etc and protect their children from any outside harm. Harm being in this case, not leaving them alone in an apartment.


Having said that, it doesn't mean that you wouldn't harm them yourself. If your of that mind.

Why would you spend time protecting them from outside harm if you're going to harm them yourself? I hear you ask. Well, it has to be a warped mind of sorts to harm you own child for your sexual gratification I'm guessing we can agree. So that warped mind may well protect them from others, so they are always readily available for themselves. I can't begin to understand or explain what might go on inside such a mind, I just guess.


Theory being, to the outside world and whoever else, you're seen as a 'Fairly decent' parent on many levels. Why would they draw any attention to their reality by leaving their children alone?


Hope that explains where I was coming from a little better.


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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Basil with a brush on 29.12.17 2:11

Forgot to add for Johnny T:

Yes, apparently she was advised by her lawyer not to answer questions. Does that make him/her a good lawyer or a bad one? Funnily enough there is no answer to that one. That's the wonderful world of lawyers.

....but, would you have put that advice into practise when faced with your daughter missing and then being suspected of wrong doing by those who are supposed to be helping find her?

No everytime. It's not what inoccent folk do.

Remember, YOUR lawyer is YOUR friend. It's what they do.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by JohnyT on 29.12.17 15:39

I agree I would answer every question possible to hopefully aid in the search of my missing chikl but some people 'follow' other peoples' advise, that doesn't make them guilty.
  Btw I am in the non believing of their version of events camp but can't think why or what happened to Madeleine. Far too many contradictions and strange behaviour ways for me.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Basil with a brush on 01.01.18 23:38

Sure is a mind blowing case JohnyT. Especially how this little girl just went 'Pooooft!' without a trace. It's why I watch this space   thumbup


Another thing that really sticks with me about the supposed leaving of the children alone in an apartment is:


If you were going to dine out where they claim to have, and decide on the insane decision to not take children of that age with you, you would surely lock the apartment? As far as I see it, you've decided they are in no danger of a fire or any other harm to themselves inside, if you are checking them as often as is also claimed. The decision to leave them would conjure up beforehand, a list of all the cons. The first and most worrying of all would be harm or access from a stranger. So it doesn't stack up that if you decided to take the risk of leaving them with just regular checks, you would then decide to leave the place unlocked. For what reason? From where they were supposed to be sitting, there is far too much chance you would never hear an opportunist child snatcher, burglar or other accessing and leaving quickly. Let alone a child waking, leaving and wandering onto a road! So again, as a parent, you wouldn't do it. It makes no sense.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by polyenne on 02.01.18 8:39

@Basil with a brush

From all that I've read, it is my firm belief that, whilst the 9 convened at the Tapas Restaurant, all the children were gathered together in the same apartment. Thus the supposed "checking" schedule is irrelevant (possibly why their accounts are so haphazard).

For the same reason, whether doors are locked or unlocked is then also irrelevant.

Their narrative has to fit the alleged modus operandi.....checking schedule + door unlocked = timed access for abductor

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Basil with a brush on 02.01.18 9:26

I can't grasp the theory all the children were at the same apartment Polyenne. Because It's not something I would do. Regardless of holidaying with friends, their children were far too young to wake up undistressed with anyone but their own parents/grandparents. I wouldn't leave my children at that age, to wake with even my closest and trusted friend. You may be right about it being irrelevant if you go with your theory. My point was just that if you are going to go by what they claim (leaving them alone in their own apartment, NOT all together in one apartment) with regular checks to see nobody has woke up or set themselves alight. Where does the decision to leave it unlocked come from? You can't have it both ways. Either you lock them in safe from abduction or you take them with you. That's why I don't believe it.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by polyenne on 02.01.18 9:38

But, if you subscribe to the theory that Madeleine met her fate sometime early in the week (or even the Sunday) then you might believe that the whole point of the Tapas dinners was to discuss and agree about the proposed cover-up. That means most, if not all, parties being present at the same time.

Remember, they had at least one baby monitor.....and a grandparent. 

I agree it's not something most people would do but then most people don't suffer a death/accident on their annual vacation !!

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 02.01.18 12:30

The problem with this saga from the very beginning has been the absence of reliable witnesses.  Not to say all witnesses were deliberately lying but how can you draw an accurate picture (egg head included) when trying to recollect the movements or appearance of a total stranger.  For the most part, witnesses were employees of Warners and the Ocean Club, with a few outsiders thrown in for good measure.  They were working, encountering just another group of tourists staying in the region - imagine how many pass through in any one season.  It's unreasonable to expect these people to have an accurate recollection of who they saw, when, where or why.

The nuclear witnesses, which includes the McCanns and their group of friends, are a different matter altogether - this I believe was the main stumbling block for the PJ, which credit to them, they soon realized they were being hoodwinked by the major players, the 4th May if I remember rightly.  By then it was too late as the booted and suited UK heavies had already moved in - but that's another story.

Anyone that can believe a single word of the cock and bull stories told by the Tapas group deserves a prize for creative thinking.  OK, there might be a few truths interwoven but they were only minor issues that had no bearing on the underlying machinations at work.  I venture to suggest that obsfucation was the priority for the Tapas group and it worked a treat!

The key witnesses on the periphery have been scrutinized to the ninth degree and again, there is not one who can be said to be 100% reliable - for varying reasons.  Other tourists staying at the resort during the same week I think can be exonerated entirely, expatriates however can be viewed through a less flattering lens.  Anyone who has lived amidst a community (that's what it is) of foreign residents abroad, will know what a clannish idle gossiping nasty lot they can be - and the lengths they will go to protect one of their own.  It's rather like a little man-made universe with it's own laws and social conduct guidelines - like if you're not down the Pig and Whistle at x o'clock and legless by last orders, you're branded traitor - an outcast - or wierd!  There can be any number of reasons why a community such as this would stick together in a crisis - think Jenny Murat and Pamela Fenn for example, think Robert Murat and Sergey Malinka and ...... think Clement Freud !!!

Let's not forget the crèche staff, examples such as Catriona Baker, Charlotte Pennington, Amy Tierney and so on but why should they have been of any real importance, apart from perhaps noting anything unusual about the child and child/parent interaction, or any stranger lurking in the vicinity.  Madeleine was reported to have disappeared at night, the crèche staff were not caring for Madeleine at that time.  Not one reliable witness.  

What of Robert Murat volunteering his services as translator for some of the key witnesses?

This all leads back to my initial point - there is not a single witness on file that can be taken as 100% reliable.  That is why we are still here today, 2nd January 2018, discussing the Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by HiDeHo on 02.01.18 12:50

One major issue that is not in the files but I consider credible as it was quoted by Goncalo Amaral is quite huge for a few reasons...

Jane Tanner 'supposedly' saw the 'abductor'.  At the time the ONLY indication it was an abduction.

HOWEVER, Goncalo Amaral claims that her claim of seeing him at the end of the road sounded 'hollow' and for a very good reason.

Apparently, and according to Goncalo Amaral, the T7 staying in the lower level used the PATIO doors to enter their apartments.  They used the BACK PATHWAY and therefore Jane was not walking up the road to the front entrance and therefore could not have seen an 'abductor'.

Using logic, this indicates to me the likelihood of someone being INSIDE the apartment to allow entry of whoever was 'checking'.  I highly doubt they ALL would leave their ground floor patio doors unlocked.

This could mean that ONE apartment was used for the children, as suggested but not confirmed in the files, around the time that Paulo Rebelo took over the case and visited the apartment.

What other implications could this mean?

I find this information important and rarely discussed, but can be viewed in this video.



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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by polyenne on 02.01.18 14:03

So, on the night of the proposed abduction, the Tapas group need to have instigated the checking routine as without it, there can be no "abduction".

Gerry at around 9.10pm and on his turn, lurking on the road and seemingly up to no good, got spooked by Jez. Damn ! This threw an enormous spanner in the works as this sort of situation was not envisaged in the master-plan.

So Gerry EITHER rushes back to the Tapas table and tells Jane Tanner, who is next "on rota" around 9.20pm, to walk up the side road and say she saw Gerry & Jez OR Gerry meets Jane on the way back and tells her to change her route, say she saw Gerry & Gez and introduce the abductor......who doesn't dress like a tourist.

Jez tells the truth and says he never saw her, as indeed he didn't.

Jane Tanner, in the recon, gets tearful as she knows she's been rumbled and there's nowt as good as a few crocodile tears to soften the atmosphere and offset any further probing.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 02.01.18 15:47

Jane Tanner witness statement - 10th May 2007   [snipped]..

Since it was asked of her, she affirmed that she had no knowledge that the McCanns had left the patio sliding door open, suspecting, however, that they did because she saw, several times, the couple climb the steps at the rear of the apartment.


She never entered apartments of other couples limiting herself only to listen for any noise, putting her ear to the children's bedroom window at the front of the apartment. Only with her own children did she enter the apartment, in all others she limited herself to listen at the doors to see if there was any noise.

She thinks that all the other couples entered by the front doors of the building/apartments, except for the McCanns. She is not sure if they [the McCanns] always entered the apartment from the rear.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Verdi on 02.01.18 15:54

Jane Tanner's rogatory interview - 8th April 2008   [snipped]..

4078    “And what was, if you were to go in through the, well I know we’ve discussed this in the office and it’s difficult to say the front door or the back door of the apartment because there’s some confusion.”

Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “If we were to say poolside and roadside, would that make it clearer as to what I was referring to?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”


4078    “Which, which entrance did you use mostly?”

Reply    “For checking or for anything?”

4078    “For anything. Was there a check, that you’d use mostly?”

Reply    “Err the back, the roadside entrance because you couldn’t actually get in to the err the poolside entrance but there was no key to get in from the outside so you could only get in there if it was unlocked. It was sort of like a, you know like patio doors have a…”

4078    “Yeah'

Reply    “Thing that goes up and down.”


4078    “Oh right.”

Reply    “So the only time we’d have probably used the back, the poolside entrance is during the day if somebody else was in there already.”

4078    “Okay, so when you went out for your meal…”

Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “In the evening, the poolside door was always locked in your apartment.”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”

4078    “So when you did your treks you had to go in through the roadside?”

Reply    “Back, yeah through the back door.”

4078    “Was that a longer journey?”

Reply    “Yeah.”

4078    “Having not been there I’m just imagining.”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah it is longer.”

4078    “And how long would it take you to walk from the Tapas to your apartment?”

Reply    “Err I don’t know, a minute and a half, yeah about a minute and a half.”

4078    “Not long at all?”

Reply    “Yeah, yeah, no it’s plenty, I mean no longer than I’d say two, no I don’t even think it would be two minutes, a minute.”


4078    “And did you leave your roadside door locked or was it unlocked?”

Reply    “Yes, yeah well we made, as I said we made sure that was because you could dead lock it as well and that was one of our concerns was Ella waking up and wandering, I mean like I say we didn’t think she would but that was probably our, you know so she couldn’t get out the actual apartment, that was err so we did make sure that was dead locked every night.”

----------

Can't imagine where Mr Amaral got his information from.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by polyenne on 02.01.18 16:01

Brilliant isn't it ? To interviewer's statements that should elicit a "no", you get a "yeah" as in "not long at all" or another question such as "through the roadside" answered with a "Back, yeah through the back door".

Why weren't they picked up more forcefully on all this fluffy faffing ?

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Phoebe on 02.01.18 17:36

On the night of the "abduction" (as I understood it) Jane was heading to her apartment to "relieve" Russell as he was already inside. Therefore, it would make sense for her to enter via the patio doors. If Russell was inside, in the sitting room, he would hear her at the patio door and slide it across to let her in. Why would she walk all the way around and knock at the front door when she could take the quick cut to the back? As I understand her statement she, having eaten, was going to her apartment to change places with her husband so that he could have his meal, so logically, she would have taken the shortest route. If she did so, she would not have passed Jez and Gerry nor been close enough to see the "abductor" at the top of the road. That being said, I take all of the Tapas groups testimony re that night with a full salt cellar.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by Doug D on 02.01.18 17:50

Phoebe:
 
‘On the night of the "abduction" (as I understood it) Jane was heading to her apartment to "relieve" Russell as he was already inside. Therefore, it would make sense for her to enter via the patio doors.’
 
Good logic, but unfortunately Russell had left the apartment at (JT) 21.00, (20.45 according to Russell) having got Elle to sleep, so she allegedly went back to check a few minutes later.

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Re: Do you believe that the children were really left alone in 5a?

Post by HiDeHo on 02.01.18 19:30

@polyenne wrote:So, on the night of the proposed abduction, the Tapas group need to have instigated the checking routine as without it, there can be no "abduction".

Gerry at around 9.10pm and on his turn, lurking on the road and seemingly up to no good, got spooked by Jez. Damn ! This threw an enormous spanner in the works as this sort of situation was not envisaged in the master-plan.

So Gerry EITHER rushes back to the Tapas table and tells Jane Tanner, who is next "on rota" around 9.20pm, to walk up the side road and say she saw Gerry & Jez OR Gerry meets Jane on the way back and tells her to change her route, say she saw Gerry & Gez and introduce the abductor......who doesn't dress like a tourist.

Jez tells the truth and says he never saw her, as indeed he didn't.

Jane Tanner, in the recon, gets tearful as she knows she's been rumbled and there's nowt as good as a few crocodile tears to soften the atmosphere and offset any further probing.


Keeping in mind that Jez claimed it could have been between 8.45pm and 9.15pm
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