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Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Mariita on 10.01.13 2:01

These thoughts and questions so well written in the first and following posts are those that are bothering me too. If I go through the whole scenario as described with the conclusion that Madeleine died an accidental death, how can that possibly fit with everything weird that happens in a very fast chain of events....? To me at least that is so difficult to understand. An accident is an accident which means something that comes suddenly. A normal situation turns into a NOT normal-at-all-situation within a second, and if the accident results in DEATH of my child I can't begin with what emotions I'd have. The 'nonfunctioning' would last more or less the rest of my life. Less only because the other children need a parent, not a zombie. And I would need them too, never ever leave them so soon and travel cross Europe. Based on their behaviour that, not only lack signs of devastation but occasionally even reveal smirks and an over-all defensive attitude(catch us if you can- shown in Ask the dogs, sandra! and Find the body and prove we killed her), I tend to believe something else. In the context of that 'something else', their behaviour and forensic language makes 100% sense. Here and there one can find small hints showing that this direction is by far not excluded; Goncalo Amaral speaks in one interview (in a tv broadcast, think it's a 'macminute' video by HideHo where the tennispic is showed and discussed) telling the interviewer that he knows much, much more. One of Dr. Martin Roberts texts expresses also that everything that happened post 3 May 2007 is not originated and grown since that day..but instead 'it' was fullgrown and ready to be introduced.

Sometimes I wonder how people would react if Dr. Christian Lüdke would say today what he said back in 2007...strangely (or not) he's been quiet since then
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by monkey mind on 10.01.13 2:02

@Inspectorfrost wrote:the Irish interview was in May 2011 amid the book launch, as was this other irish interview


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLvnfcl-Zkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player


one of the two became famous for gerry mccann saying, in answer to questions about the dogs, that it was THEM that asked for the dogs to be brought in for a more thorough search
lol!

eta after 27 mins in that video

Yes, he was asked about eddie and keela, in that interview, but glossed over this question with the half truth that he had asked for the dogs to be brought in, like the day after sniffer dogs, yes he did, but not THOSE dogs, oh dear

Mr Grime, Harrison, Amaral, Paiva, Tavares, Prior and others must have been cringing at best if they watched that

Sorry for going off topic, OP I have rarely seen the parents other than cold calculating and smirking and self serving
: thanks
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by tigger on 10.01.13 7:25

@Woofer wrote:Here`s Part 1 - its 18 mins long

http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?video=35780&locID=1.65.74&date=2011-05-16&date_mode=1&page=1&show_cal=&newspanel=&showspanel=&web_only=&full_episodes=



Yes, it seemed to be when Mark mentioned the twins, but I think the tension would have been building up during the previous piece of discussion, then it broke when the twins were mentioned.

Kate often looks very rough, decade older than just after 3/5. I think you're right about the tension building. She doesn't like interviews at all, it would be understandable if she 'broke' when told that Maddie might not know she was missing but that doesn't do it.
Gerry is in his element there, managed to look boyish and rational. Which leads me to think the questions were given beforehand. Mitchell is there just for that sort of thing.

In the diary Kate mentions that they sometimes rehearsed for up to 3 hours for an interview.

Here Kate briefly behaves the way one would expect a bereaved parent to look. But it is four years on.
I honestly believe this is on a par with the lack-lustre interview with Kelly on her ambassadorship. All these endless interviews, no glamorous life, no world class celebrity status, keeping up the pretence must be taking a toll.

I've seen another video where Kate is in the kitchen and points out the drawing made by Maddie - she seems genuinely distressed. But what exactly is the distress? Because everything has gone wrong? This is also quite some time after 3/5/07.
Imo the far more obvious spite and venomous revenge against Amaral, TB and eg. Mrs. Fenn is sustained throughout.
Kate breaks down from time to time, but I believe it to be self-pity and it is very rare.

The public were informed by Kate that she was sleeping well again after about a week and that she hadn't lost more than half a stone in weight, the papers had exaggerated it all.

This is not normal behaviour. I'm with Dr. Ludke on this. You can talk about a difficult plan/decision for months even set the plan in motion
with the option to stop at any given moment. In that case the grief/fear/tension is mostly before the event. Which would explain the relief after the event imo.

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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 10.01.13 7:33

brilliant, tigger
roses

parapono
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 10.01.13 10:37

@Woofer wrote:Monkey Mind - its hard indeed to try and imagine how you would react if your small child had genuinely gone missing but does it get you anywhere, particularly as humans can be anywhere on the `normal to mad spectrum`?

It might be more telling to try and imagine how you would react and behave if you had accidentally, say in a fit of temper, killed your child while holidaying in a foreign country. Would you try and cover it up and find a way of getting her home and having a proper burial or would you come clean and throw yourself at the mercy of the foreign justice system? Of course, personality and present status will have a huge bearing, but even so, one would expect there would still be immense guilt and not blase blogging about jogging times.

I think that if you killed your child by an accident and you knew the accident happened in a way that you are to blame (hitting or slapping) or she died while you where not there (wining and dining) either way you as parents would get the blame,then im sure the coverup would be easy to do compared to the consequences of reporting the accident caused by you.( hated by friends, family,jail , loosing the other children etc)
If your child died by an accident that was noones fault in good care of their parents, there is no reason to cover it up.

This was covered up, the reason has to be that somehow it was their fault what ever happened on that holiday IMHO ofcourse .
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Nina on 10.01.13 11:20

Moa wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Monkey Mind - its hard indeed to try and imagine how you would react if your small child had genuinely gone missing but does it get you anywhere, particularly as humans can be anywhere on the `normal to mad spectrum`?

It might be more telling to try and imagine how you would react and behave if you had accidentally, say in a fit of temper, killed your child while holidaying in a foreign country. Would you try and cover it up and find a way of getting her home and having a proper burial or would you come clean and throw yourself at the mercy of the foreign justice system? Of course, personality and present status will have a huge bearing, but even so, one would expect there would still be immense guilt and not blase blogging about jogging times.

I think that if you killed your child by an accident and you knew the accident happened in a way that you are to blame (hitting or slapping) or she died while you where not there (wining and dining) either way you as parents would get the blame,then im sure the coverup would be easy to do compared to the consequences of reporting the accident caused by you.( hated by friends, family,jail , loosing the other children etc)
If your child died by an accident that was noones fault in good care of their parents, there is no reason to cover it up.

This was covered up, the reason has to be that somehow it was their fault what ever happened on that holiday IMHO ofcourse .

And in my opinion too Moa. If something had happened to Madeleine whilst in the car of the creche nannies, it would have been the fault of Mark Warner. It didn't though. Whatever happened was during the time she was in the care of her parents.

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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Inspectorfrost on 10.01.13 19:54

@Nina wrote:
Moa wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Monkey Mind - its hard indeed to try and imagine how you would react if your small child had genuinely gone missing but does it get you anywhere, particularly as humans can be anywhere on the `normal to mad spectrum`?

It might be more telling to try and imagine how you would react and behave if you had accidentally, say in a fit of temper, killed your child while holidaying in a foreign country. Would you try and cover it up and find a way of getting her home and having a proper burial or would you come clean and throw yourself at the mercy of the foreign justice system? Of course, personality and present status will have a huge bearing, but even so, one would expect there would still be immense guilt and not blase blogging about jogging times.

I think that if you killed your child by an accident and you knew the accident happened in a way that you are to blame (hitting or slapping) or she died while you where not there (wining and dining) either way you as parents would get the blame,then im sure the coverup would be easy to do compared to the consequences of reporting the accident caused by you.( hated by friends, family,jail , loosing the other children etc)
If your child died by an accident that was noones fault in good care of their parents, there is no reason to cover it up.

This was covered up, the reason has to be that somehow it was their fault what ever happened on that holiday IMHO ofcourse .

And in my opinion too Moa. If something had happened to Madeleine whilst in the car of the creche nannies, it would have been the fault of Mark Warner. It didn't though. Whatever happened was during the time she was in the care of her parents.

Aah, but dont forget Kate Mccann in her book seemed to implicate the resort when she said Madeleine could have been drugged during the day. I dont have the quote to hand but I definitely read something along those lines. wtf2

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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 11.01.13 11:07

I posteed the wrong video by mistake, when you do tousand things at once that happens !

This is the requested video, tough im sure the appeal vid would give some clues aswell ..

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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by tigger on 11.01.13 12:53

Kate's body language is amazing. She behaves like a giddy teenager on a first date.

The misdirection is in full force.

- there were no 16 text messages , (Gerry). Kate jumps in saying that there were none until Madeleine was taken.
So that's actually rubbish, says Gerry, adding 'the day after we had hundreds of text messages....'

See conjuring trick? He's admitting to 'hundreds' and it's rubbish (rubbish PJ) to say there were 16..... '


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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by aquila on 11.01.13 13:18

When Monkey Mind began this topic he asked for evidence of the McCanns displaying guilt/shame/remorse/humility. There has been little offered up to his request even after all the research, the videos, photographs and interviews.

Either the McCann's had really, really bad advice from all of those professionals around them or.........

just my opinion
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 11.01.13 13:19

@tigger wrote:Kate's body language is amazing. She behaves like a giddy teenager on a first date.

The misdirection is in full force.

- there were no 16 text messages , (Gerry). Kate jumps in saying that there were none until Madeleine was taken.
So that's actually rubbish, says Gerry, adding 'the day after we had hundreds of text messages....'

See conjuring trick? He's admitting to 'hundreds' and it's rubbish (rubbish PJ) to say there were 16..... '

***
One could take it a bit further. Nobody wants to be caught on a lie. It were not 16 messages, but maybe 15 or 17 ..?
IMO and on the basis of experience with other people lying ;-)
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by monkey mind on 11.01.13 15:29

Imaginary scenario 3.

Earlier, on page two of this thread, Woofer posed the perfectly reasonable question does this avenue of inquiry take us anywhere? I don't know, each can only decide that for themselves

Woofer also posed the following “it might be more telling to try and imagine how you would react and behave if you had accidentally, say in a fit of temper, killed your child while holidaying in a foreign country. Would you try and cover it up and find a way of getting her home and having a proper burial or would you come clean and throw yourself at the mercy of the foreign justice system?”

This is more difficult, but projecting myself into that scenario and judging how I personally might behave on the presumption that by killed in a fit of temper Woofer means maybe I lashed out with horrific consequences. Well without question my first emotion and feeling would be just that, horror at what I had done. Followed by fear, overwhelming guilt, unbearable remorse and shame. In short, very similar emotions to the two previous instances discussed those of abduction and accident in my absence.

There would for me be two common factors running through all three imaginary scenarios which generate the above emotions and those are...

1. Culpability. For me, and this is only how I would feel I can only speak for myself, I would feel a varying degree of blame in each instance. I would feel a degree of blame if my daughter were taken from the school playground during school time but that’s another matter.

2. Love.

In my opinion these two factors would wrap themselves around my very being and combine to induce the emotions described in the three situations imagined.

Woofer then asked would I try and cover it up and try and get her body back to home for a burial. The simple answer to that question is she would indeed have a proper burial back home if I DIDN’T try to cover it up wouldn’t she now?

So I presume you mean my cover up would involve somehow the body going missing and then my smuggling it back to England?
My answer to that is an emphatic – no! This is my child, my daughter we are talking about. I loved her. The fact that in a temper I accidentally killed her would if anything make that prospect even less likely. I loved
her, love her, could I subject her body to more humiliation than I had already. Out of the question – which leaves me only two options.

I can say for me, in this imaginary scenario, the furthest I could go out of fear and by now a badly damaged sense of responsibility, would be to perhaps try and convince the police it was some sort of accident in which I played no part. But even this is unlikely. I did it. I deserve what’s coming. I think, feel fairly sure that my remorse would allow for no other course of action than in all humility to throw myself on the altar of justice and ask and hope for mercy.

Of course we mustn’t forget that there would be two to consider in all the three scenarios. How would my wife feel? Would she let or encourage me to subject her daughter’s body to more abuse and degradation just to save my own pathetic and miserable skin?

So I’ve tried to imagine how I would react, behave, deal with the situation if my daughter had gone missing in exactly the same scenario as we are told happened to the McCanns by their account of events. And
I’ve tried to imagine how I would feel if my daughter had tragically died somehow in circumstances similar to those the PJ appear to believe. And then in response to a third scenario put by Woofer I’ve tried to imagine a third. The views I expressed are entirely my own in relation to myself but I feel sure that in each instance, abduction, accident, manslaughter, the emotions would be the same the variation would come in the degree to which each one was felt. In the first and third, abduction and manslaughter there would also be great fear, in the first for my daughter, in the latter for myself, but I think in that latter love, grief, remorse, guilt and conscience would over ride the primal instincts of fear and self preservation.
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by monkey mind on 11.01.13 15:44

In addition to my last, where Woofer asked would I try to cover it up and get the body back home for a ‘proper burial’. Well if the scenario meant somehow hiding the body and then smuggling it home how could what would presumably be a secretive, covert burial ever be ‘proper’? How am I to find a priest that would go along with it?

And to be honest, I think if I were the sort of person who placed his own hide above his daughter’s the one I had just accidentally killed, to the extent that I was willing to inflict lord knows what further humiliation, indignity and damage just to preserve my own miserable skin, then I can’t see how I would give much of a toss about burials at home and exposing myself to further risk by smuggling a corpse cross borders and oceans. There’s a contradiction there isn’t there....
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by tigger on 11.01.13 16:30

@monkey mind wrote:In addition to my last, where Woofer asked would I try to cover it up and get the body back home for a ‘proper burial’. Well if the scenario meant somehow hiding the body and then smuggling it home how could what would presumably be a secretive, covert burial ever be ‘proper’? How am I to find a priest that would go along with it?

And to be honest, I think if I were the sort of person who placed his own hide above his daughter’s the one I had just accidentally killed, to the extent that I was willing to inflict lord knows what further humiliation, indignity and damage just to preserve my own miserable skin, then I can’t see how I would give much of a toss about burials at home and exposing myself to further risk by smuggling a corpse cross borders and oceans. There’s a contradiction there isn’t there....

It's been my conviction that the child's body was disposed of very safely, for the parents that is. How else can we explain "Find the body and prove we did it?' That means it wasn't transported to the UK with all attendant risks imo. Somewhere safe in Portugal would be logical.
What they did do is to let the few people who must have known soothe their consciences by observing the duties to the dead.
It's in another topic but the dates fit so well that I have no doubt.
On the third day - prayer in church. (3/5 - imo she died 30/4sh)
On the ninth day - church service ( 12th May - photographs)
On the fortieth day - family and friends memorial (Sagres meeting with family, Gerry changes the day on the blog)
After three months - say farewell at the grave (trip to Huelva - out by one day because of PJ visit or 'virus')

During that summer Michael Wrights' children were received in the roman catholic faith, they were baptised and I believe their ages were early teens. One or both of the McCanns were present at the ceremony.

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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Woofer on 11.01.13 17:33

@monkey mind wrote:In addition to my last, where Woofer asked would I try to cover it up and get the body back home for a ‘proper burial’. Well if the scenario meant somehow hiding the body and then smuggling it home how could what would presumably be a secretive, covert burial ever be ‘proper’? How am I to find a priest that would go along with it?


I would have thought that would be fairly easy, considering the reputation of some priests in the RC church. That type would be easy to blackmail. Note I did say `some`.

As regards trying to imagine what I would do if I had killed my child accidentally I cannot get very far with the scenario as its such an awful thing to face, even in the imagination, though I would probably come clean and want to be punished.

Objectively it appears the parents have been acting as if they are guilty - the dominant controlling personality type of GM would be highly likely to brazen it out in my opinion. SY must realise this unless they are all naive burks. It really comes down to personality type and what one has to lose.
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 11.01.13 18:20

None of us can really know what we might do in the hypothetical situation of a child coming to grief either through lashing out or through negligence.

There was a dreadful occasion many years ago when (due to the pressure I was under with a domestic situation) I was close to harming my son. So I can understand how it can happen and I would not condemn anyone who has momentarily lost control.

All I can say is that I'm sure I would have called for medical help right away and then maybe been a little economical with the truth as to what happened.
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Woofer on 11.01.13 19:19

A personality disordered type will usually never take responsibility - it will always be someone else`s fault who made them do it. And they will use emotional blackmail with impunity. The psychopath will have no feelings, therefore no guilt, shame or humility. So as we have seen no shame from the pair, in my opinion, I would assume they are either completely innocent (unlikely) or one (or both of them) have a personality disorder.
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