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Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

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Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by monkey mind on 08.01.13 22:46

I’m trying to get a grasp on what thoughts, feelings and emotions would be most powerful apart from the obvious grief and fear if I were in such a situation. I’m using myself as a yardstick and as such it is hypothetical and my opinion only.

I don’t know about you, but if I were on holiday wining and dining with my friends, knowing my children were left unattended in an unfamiliar, unlocked apartment and as a result my almost 4 year old child were abducted...

Abducted: To carry off by force; kidnap

... certain thoughts and emotions would pass through my mind. There is no doubt the words predator

Predator: a person who ruthlessly exploits others
a sexual predator


...and paedophile...

Paedophile: an adult with sexual preferences for children

...would go through my mind time and time again creating disturbing images.

Placing myself in the midst of it, it doesn’t matter what I say, it doesn’t matter how I dress it up or try to present the events, I know in my own heart and mind that if I had been there it could not have happened. And I would keep remembering that it wasn’t just that night, I had left them every night. The emotions would be overwhelming but the primary one would be guilt. Those powerful words, abducted, predator and paedophile, the images they generate along with the absence of my daughter would combine to create a huge sense of guilt and culpability, if not criminal certainly moral.

Guilt: Responsibility for a mistake or error
Remorseful awareness of having done something wrong
Self-reproach for supposed inadequacy or wrongdoing


The guilt would inevitably bring with it shame...

Shame: A painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or disgrace

...and such remorse

Remorse: deep regret or guilt for a wrong committed:

A hefty bag of primal, powerful emotions. There would be no excuses, none at all, I could only put my hands up to the world and God for leaving all my children alone whilst I was drinking and enjoying myself when they could have, should have been with a babysitter or communal care. Even if I had seen nothing wrong with leaving them in the first place I could not argue to support the action for the results were demonstrably tragic. I would pray for my punishment. Mercy would not be necessary. Nor would I have the will, energy or wit to start justifying their being left alone or tweaking facts to adjust the spotlight a little for these primal emotions would not allow it. My guilt, my grief, my shame, my responsibility.

And these feelings, these demons of guilt, remorse and shame would not leave me. In short I would be haunted

Haunted: To visit often; frequent
To come to the mind of continually; obsess
To be continually present in; pervade


We all have an image of ourselves, an ever changing self portrait within which we encapsulate our values, ideals and beliefs. I ask myself what would it do to me, to my sense of personal worth, my ego, my values of myself, my thoughts of past, my future and my ambition. For me, it would in one stroke destroy them all. The most singular most humbling of experiences would eliminate or shatter any sense of personal value I had ever held.....

Humbling: To curtail or destroy the pride of; humiliate
To cause to be meek or modest in spirit


For me, there is no doubt if the circumstances were as we have been told that is how I would feel, but on a scale that mere words cannot put sufficient image to.

So why can’t I see obvious evidence of these emotions? The signs should be continually there should they not? Everyday, overt. Now it may just be me but when I look at events, video footage, photographs, interviews etc, between the time she disappeared to when they fled Portugal, when I look for evidence of guilt, shame, remorse, humility I cannot see any of any significance. Not remotely close to the degree I would expect. I don’t see much evidence of grief for that matter either. Like I say, maybe just me but I really can’t. It’s not that I don’t want to see it, I’d be happy to. Please post, show me if you can what I am missing. Tell me I’m wrong and point me to the obvious signs of guilt, remorse, shame and humility. I’ll be happy for it to be just me, my mistake.

Now it may be argued that we all deal with things differently and this is so but in this instance, in such a powerful emotive situation that argument doesn’t wash with me for in truth the mechanism of the human mind is essentially the same in everyone it only varies in degrees rather than expression..

So I couldn’t really find what I was looking for but reading Gerry’s blog for the first time yesterday (I’ve been avoiding them), his first blog 17 days after the event 20th May, it was an outline of their average day but tagged on at the end, the last sentence I came across this.....

“Yesterday (Sat) at 7am we ran to the monument at the top of the steep cliff overlooking Praia de Luz. We reached it in 19 minutes.”

Say what!?!? You’ve got to be kidding me right? Actually, when I first read that there were a lot more expletives in that exclamation. They say a picture paints a thousand words but I’ll wager Dr Roberts and his forensic linguistics from that sentence would write a thousand pictures.

19 minutes. To the monument. Atop the **steep** cliff. 19 minutes. Not fifteen, not quarter of an hour, not twenty or so. 19. Not a guess. So he checked his watch when they left the apartment, and he checked it when he reached the monument. 19 minutes, very first thing in the morning. Is that a good time you think? Quicker than a walk? Better than a jog? Above or below his average? Maybe it was a PB, now that would be worthy of mention, it was after all a steep cliffl we are told

Mitchell I believe has said that none of the T9 wore watches or carried phones when they were eating and drinking every night that’s why their times differ. It would follow then that they could not be sure how long their children had been left alone in an unlocked apartment either, but just two weeks after she is stolen, abducted, gone taken by who knows what, first thing in the morning G knows to the minute how long it took him to run up the cliff. The steep cliff.

Some may argue that being a regular runner it was an automatic reaction to time himself, a reaction powerful enough to over ride a head full of grief, fear, worry, guilt, shame, remorse and who knows what other shyte. Maybe so. But he didn’t have to tell the world in his blog how fast he got up the steep hill did he?

I didn’t get any further with the blog.

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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by monkey mind on 08.01.13 22:49

So when I don’t really see evidence of the emotions I would expect to see, those that I have no doubt would express themselves in me under the same circumstances then it’s not unreasonable to question the circumstances is it?

The PJ did exactly that and obviously combining a number of factors including the searches of Eddie and Keela they worked on the theory as they have publicly stated that they believed Madeleine died in the apartment as the result of an accident.

On that basis, and putting aside the problem of what happened to the body, I put myself in the midst once again only this time substituting the abduction scenario with an accident.

Accident: An unexpected and undesirable event, especially one resulting in damage or harm

Would the thoughts, feelings and emotions be any different? Well obviously I wouldn’t be thinking about abductors, predators and paedophiles but the guilt, shame, remorse and humbling would be just as intense. For me at least for the loss is the same measured only by my love which is also the same. My behaviour therefore should be the same essentially.

These are just my observations and opinions formed with myself in a hypothetical situation but once again I’m not seeing what I would expect.

And that, is where I have a problem.
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 08.01.13 23:11

Brilliant. Go on ...
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Woofer on 08.01.13 23:23

MM - how would anyone react if they`d been the cause of the child`s demise ? This is probably harder to imagine and harder to be truthful about.
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by tigger on 09.01.13 6:40

This is entirely my own observation, based on body language and behaviour seen on video and photographs.

In short, I saw relief in their behaviour. In Gerry, standing wide-legged in front of a whiteboard, I saw a man finally being able to get on with a plan. Imo they both behaved as if they could finally get on with their lives and couldn't wait to do so.
The final exams over, you're free at last. Who wants to talk about the exam anymore?

The desired lifestyle seemed to be based on Daily Mail type celebrity lives, front pages, photographs of them running and frequent references to the type of celebrity they contacted. Beckham, Rowling, Elton John. (Early on Gerry thought it was a good idea to have Kate photographed in a swimsuit - I think CM put a stop to that).

They only looked the part of distressed parents on the night of the 4th when they gave a press conference - imo that was because an awful lot of things had gone wrong the previous night and Gerry looks like a boy who's been found out by the headmaster.


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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by jozi on 09.01.13 8:38


Happy New Year Everyone.


Monkeymind, your post is exactly how I feel about all of this too, it does not sit right in either situation ???

Guilt is a very powerful emotion and either a accident or abduction to Maddie, would show on the faces of the parents. The only time I have seen anything other than arrogance (Gerry's) and pretendy sadness (Kate's), was at the resort when they were announcing to the world the abduction (Kate's face) but she was hiding behind Gerry and just looked scared, not the face or emotions I would expect ?. Gerry never did have that look did he ???

Gerry's face told a different story though coming out of the Police Station when they were made Arguido's , this and only this time, the look of arrogance was knocked off his face and I saw real fear !!!

There was no grief,sadness or guilt on the faces of these two never ever !!!
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 09.01.13 9:24

jozi wrote:
Happy New Year Everyone.


Monkeymind, your post is exactly how I feel about all of this too, it does not sit right in either situation ???

Guilt is a very powerful emotion and either a accident or abduction to Maddie, would show on the faces of the parents. The only time I have seen anything other than arrogance (Gerry's) and pretendy sadness (Kate's), was at the resort when they were announcing to the world the abduction (Kate's face) but she was hiding behind Gerry and just looked scared, not the face or emotions I would expect ?. Gerry never did have that look did he ???

Gerry's face told a different story though coming out of the Police Station when they were made Arguido's , this and only this time, the look of arrogance was knocked off his face and I saw real fear !!!

There was no grief,sadness or guilt on the faces of these two never ever !!!

jozi, I totally agee with you.
especially on the 'fear-moments'

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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 09.01.13 9:34

Thought-provoking posts, Monkey Mind.

It'a a long time since I've had to worry about finding a responsible minder for my son - he probably would benefit from one even now, but that's another story.

I know that, if I had left him sleeping while I was out for whatever reason and I returned to find the flat empty with nothing to indicate where he was, I feel sure that the last thing that would have come to my mind was that a stranger had got in somehow and taken him.

Assuming he was old enough to walk and open the front door, I'd have thought he'd gone looking for me. I would then have been panic-stricken, scouring the immediate area and then calling the police if I couldn't find him.

I really would like to know why the McCanns broadcast the "abducted by a paedophile" scenario when there was no believable evidence of this and it was the least likely solution.
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 09.01.13 9:44

Mitchell I believe has said that none of the T9 wore watches or carried phones when they were eating and drinking every night that’s why their times differ. It would follow then that they could not be sure how long their children had been left alone in an unlocked apartment either, but just two weeks after she is stolen, abducted, gone taken by who knows what, first thing in the morning G knows to the minute how long it took him to run up the cliff. The steep cliff.

If he said that , it is not true as both K and G wore watches every night and day, always. And there are plenty of pictures to prove it.

I totaly agree with your post, good points ! And when your daughter is missing, how can you even care about the time u use to reach a cliff? Unbelieveble !
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 09.01.13 9:45

Woofer wrote:MM - how would anyone react if they`d been the cause of the child`s demise ? This is probably harder to imagine and harder to be truthful about.

Look at K and G and you have the answer I guess...
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by jozi on 09.01.13 11:53

[qulote="Woofer"]MM - how would anyone react if they`d been the cause of the child`s demise ? This is probably harder to imagine and harder to be truthful about.[/quote]

IMO Woofer !!!

You would not have the inclination to go running and timing the runs, your body would be so weak through shock it would not be able to handle it and you certainly would not be able to achieve it in a record 19 mins ???

You would not be able to get ready to do pre-arranged and pre-staged photo shoots so early either !!!

Smiling, who would be able to smile on your missing daughters birthday a full week and a few days after that said daughter went missing ???

You would not let your other kids out of your sight as you would be thinking it could happen again !!!

No, nothing sits well in either situation ? Just does not add up with abduction or accident ???
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 09.01.13 13:02

Moa wrote:Mitchell I believe has said that none of the T9 wore watches or carried phones when they were eating and drinking every night that’s why their times differ. It would follow then that they could not be sure how long their children had been left alone in an unlocked apartment either, but just two weeks after she is stolen, abducted, gone taken by who knows what, first thing in the morning G knows to the minute how long it took him to run up the cliff. The steep cliff.

If he said that , it is not true as both K and G wore watches every night and day, always. And there are plenty of pictures to prove it.

I totaly agree with your post, good points ! And when your daughter is missing, how can you even care about the time u use to reach a cliff? Unbelieveble !

Not only pictures to prove it, one of the tapas actually states they were wearing watches that night in their Rogatory Interview. Saw it yesterday, but can't remember which one of them now.
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by tigger on 09.01.13 13:41

Jean wrote:Thought-provoking posts, Monkey Mind.

It'a a long time since I've had to worry about finding a responsible minder for my son - he probably would benefit from one even now, but that's another story.

I know that, if I had left him sleeping while I was out for whatever reason and I returned to find the flat empty with nothing to indicate where he was, I feel sure that the last thing that would have come to my mind was that a stranger had got in somehow and taken him.

Assuming he was old enough to walk and open the front door, I'd have thought he'd gone looking for me. I would then have been panic-stricken, scouring the immediate area and then calling the police if I couldn't find him.

I really would like to know why the McCanns broadcast the "abducted by a paedophile" scenario when there was no believable evidence of this and it was the least likely solution.

I would think that it was the best publicity fodder of all possible scenarios. For a public used to sex and depravity of every kind on TV and film, this was/is both fantasy and reality. No wonder there was so much enthusiasm in taking part in the drama. Now everyone had a role to play in one of their favourite films.

Imo there was very good advice on marketing and presentation. I can't see any other explanation - the official version doesn't work in terms of an emotional time-line or rational thinking time-line. Imo it was a plan 'ready to launch' at a moment's notice.

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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by jozi on 09.01.13 13:56

tigger wrote

Imo there was very good advice on marketing and presentation. I can't
see any other explanation - the official version doesn't work in terms
of an emotional time-line or rational thinking time-line. Imo it was a
plan 'ready to launch' at a moment's notice.
-------------------------
Hi tigger

My thoughts exactly !!!
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by monkey mind on 09.01.13 21:31

I earlier described how I would feel if I had left my daughter unattended in an unfamiliar unlocked apartment every night for five successive nights and she was abducted by lord knows who. That’s exactly what the McCanns are telling us happened.

And I’ve said how I would feel if I had left her in identical circumstances and she had suffered a fatal accident in my absence, which is what the PJ believe happened.

So has anybody found anything that mirrors that yet? I’m not interested in anything written, diaries books or blogs. I’d like to see something spontaneous, from any photographs, video, tv interviews, radio interviews that we can look at or listen to and say yup, that’s genuine remorse, or shame, or humility, or guilt or overwhelming grief. There must be something. These are the parents of the most famous missing child on the planet, no parents have been photographed, recorded or filmed more than these two, day in day out particularly in the first few months.

Or is it just me that would feel that way? Maybe I’ve got it wrong, maybe I’m the only one. Wouldn’t you feel the same?Unless it’s just me that would feel those feelings then we should see them spill out somewhere shouldn’t we? All that video and audio footage. I’d be blubbering my apologies to the world. My grief would be apparent as would my shame and remorse. Time and again.

Some may argue they are covering it up “..ooh they’re doctors you know, trained to be in control, can’t have an emotional surgeon..” Rubbish. They are human beings telling us their daughter has been abducted, or if the PJ are correct she is dead due to an accident. We can agree some horror has befallen her whilst her parents left her in an unlocked apartment at night while they were eating and drinking with their friends. That’s a fact. They could have employed a babysitter, that’s a fact. They could have taken her to the communal baby sitting service that’s a fact. They didn’t and five years later she’s still abducted and missing or dead. That’s a fact.

Unless you have completely transcended thought, and the one that has done that is the rarest of jewels, then a person’s behaviour is nothing more than a reflection of their inner thoughts and emotions. It can’t be prevented. A person who is light and happy and a pleasure to be around will carry few resentments whereas someone burdened with resentments will be bitter, twisted and angry. No matter how controlled you are, no matter how you try to cover up, in my opinion it’s impossible for someone filled with the emotions described above, brought on by the circumstances described above, as exposed to the media as much as above, not for both of them at some time or other for them to have spilled out.

I’ll tell you this if that were my child I wouldn’t have been blogging about how fast I ran up the cliff, steep cliff mind you, timing myself. No I bloody wouldn’t, I’d be getting worried looks from family and doctors because I hadn’t eaten for a fortnight.

Nor would I be much better five years on. The media would no longer want to follow, photo or speak to me. It would be too embarrassing. Not for me, for them. You’d see me walking round Tesco’s taking strangers by the arm, peering forlornly into their faces and mumbling “I shouldn’t have left them, I shouldn’t have left them” before dropping another case of NZ wine into mctrolley.

So come on folks let’s have it. Let’s cut through the adverts and the rhetoric, the self justification and denial and let’s see if we can find something that we can all look at and see it for what it is, genuine grief, remorse, shame, humility, contrition, conscience, deep, deep regret. Something, anything, because if I can’t find it, I have to question if it’s there, and if not why not, why does the behaviour not reflect what I would expect to see from the circumstances we have been described?

Paste the link please.

And if we can’t find it, if it isn’t there, and we’re discussing it here.....

.....I shouldn’t be the least surprised to see such a display on the breakfast telly box in a couple of weeks.
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 09.01.13 21:42

monkey mind wrote:I earlier described how I would feel if I had left my daughter unattended in an unfamiliar unlocked apartment every night for five successive nights and she was abducted by lord knows who. That’s exactly what the McCanns are telling us happened.

And I’ve said how I would feel if I had left her in identical circumstances and she had suffered a fatal accident in my absence, which is what the PJ believe happened.

So has anybody found anything that mirrors that yet? I’m not interested in anything written, diaries books or blogs. I’d like to see something spontaneous, from any photographs, video, tv interviews, radio interviews that we can look at or listen to and say yup, that’s genuine remorse, or shame, or humility, or guilt or overwhelming grief. There must be something. These are the parents of the most famous missing child on the planet, no parents have been photographed, recorded or filmed more than these two, day in day out particularly in the first few months.

Or is it just me that would feel that way? Maybe I’ve got it wrong, maybe I’m the only one. Wouldn’t you feel the same?Unless it’s just me that would feel those feelings then we should see them spill out somewhere shouldn’t we? All that video and audio footage. I’d be blubbering my apologies to the world. My grief would be apparent as would my shame and remorse. Time and again.

Some may argue they are covering it up “..ooh they’re doctors you know, trained to be in control, can’t have an emotional surgeon..” Rubbish. They are human beings telling us their daughter has been abducted, or if the PJ are correct she is dead due to an accident. We can agree some horror has befallen her whilst her parents left her in an unlocked apartment at night while they were eating and drinking with their friends. That’s a fact. They could have employed a babysitter, that’s a fact. They could have taken her to the communal baby sitting service that’s a fact. They didn’t and five years later she’s still abducted and missing or dead. That’s a fact.

Unless you have completely transcended thought, and the one that has done that is the rarest of jewels, then a person’s behaviour is nothing more than a reflection of their inner thoughts and emotions. It can’t be prevented. A person who is light and happy and a pleasure to be around will carry few resentments whereas someone burdened with resentments will be bitter, twisted and angry. No matter how controlled you are, no matter how you try to cover up, in my opinion it’s impossible for someone filled with the emotions described above, brought on by the circumstances described above, as exposed to the media as much as above, not for both of them at some time or other for them to have spilled out.

I’ll tell you this if that were my child I wouldn’t have been blogging about how fast I ran up the cliff, steep cliff mind you, timing myself. No I bloody wouldn’t, I’d be getting worried looks from family and doctors because I hadn’t eaten for a fortnight.

Nor would I be much better five years on. The media would no longer want to follow, photo or speak to me. It would be too embarrassing. Not for me, for them. You’d see me walking round Tesco’s taking strangers by the arm, peering forlornly into their faces and mumbling “I shouldn’t have left them, I shouldn’t have left them” before dropping another case of NZ wine into mctrolley.

So come on folks let’s have it. Let’s cut through the adverts and the rhetoric, the self justification and denial and let’s see if we can find something that we can all look at and see it for what it is, genuine grief, remorse, shame, humility, contrition, conscience, deep, deep regret. Something, anything, because if I can’t find it, I have to question if it’s there, and if not why not, why does the behaviour not reflect what I would expect to see from the circumstances we have been described?

Paste the link please.

And if we can’t find it, if it isn’t there, and we’re discussing it here.....

.....I shouldn’t be the least surprised to see such a display on the breakfast telly box in a couple of weeks.

Dear monkey mind
Please proceed!
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Woofer on 09.01.13 22:47

Not sure if its grief, but there is genuine upset from KM at abt. 5mins in.

They are being interviewed by Mark Cagney and the question came up of `what if Madeleine doesn`t know she`s missing?`

http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?video=35779&locID=1.65.74
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 09.01.13 22:56

Intruiguing video. This was part 2. I'm going to look for part 1.
Thanks for posting.

ETA there's indeed genuine upset of Kate when it's about the twins ...
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Woofer on 09.01.13 23:03

Here`s Part 1 - its 18 mins long

http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?video=35780&locID=1.65.74&date=2011-05-16&date_mode=1&page=1&show_cal=&newspanel=&showspanel=&web_only=&full_episodes=



Yes, it seemed to be when Mark mentioned the twins, but I think the tension would have been building up during the previous piece of discussion, then it broke when the twins were mentioned.
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Woofer on 09.01.13 23:18

Monkey Mind - its hard indeed to try and imagine how you would react if your small child had genuinely gone missing but does it get you anywhere, particularly as humans can be anywhere on the `normal to mad spectrum`?

It might be more telling to try and imagine how you would react and behave if you had accidentally, say in a fit of temper, killed your child while holidaying in a foreign country. Would you try and cover it up and find a way of getting her home and having a proper burial or would you come clean and throw yourself at the mercy of the foreign justice system? Of course, personality and present status will have a huge bearing, but even so, one would expect there would still be immense guilt and not blase blogging about jogging times.
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 09.01.13 23:27

Woofer wrote:Here`s Part 1 - its 18 mins long

http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?video=35780&locID=1.65.74&date=2011-05-16&date_mode=1&page=1&show_cal=&newspanel=&showspanel=&web_only=&full_episodes=



Yes, it seemed to be when Mark mentioned the twins, but I think the tension would have been building up during the previous piece of discussion, then it broke when the twins were mentioned.
***
Brilliant interviewer.
Thanks for giving a link to part 1.
I will review it a couple of times.
There are "indicators" there from both ides.
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Guest on 09.01.13 23:47

[quote="Châtelaine"]
Woofer wrote:Here`s Part 1 - its 18 mins long

http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?video=35780&locID=1.65.74&date=2011-05-16&date_mode=1&page=1&show_cal=&newspanel=&showspanel=&web_only=&full_episodes=



Yes, it seemed to be when Mark mentioned the twins, but I think the tension would have been building up during the previous piece of discussion, then it broke when the twins were mentioned.
***
Brilliant interviewer.
Thanks for giving a link to part 1.
I will review it a couple of times.
There are "indicators" there from both ides.[/quote

Why not wait till you know what to post?
Confusion is no roadmap to the truth, let us firmly aim on that.
Kind regards

parapono


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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by monkey mind on 10.01.13 1:27

Woofer wrote:Here`s Part 1 - its 18 mins long

http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?video=35780&locID=1.65.74&date=2011-05-16&date_mode=1&page=1&show_cal=&newspanel=&showspanel=&web_only=&full_episodes=



Yes, it seemed to be when Mark mentioned the twins, but I think the tension would have been building up during the previous piece of discussion, then it broke when the twins were mentioned.

I would definitely say that’s emotion, definitely upset and that it definitely arose on the mention of Sean and Amelieis names, anything else is speculation, but heck, speculation is quite a factor in this thread.

Do we know when this interview was? It’s an accepted fact that memory is both fallible and malleable. Memories can be changed, lost entirely or replaced with new ones. I’m not saying that is what has happened here, just that it can happen. Look at Jane Tanner! Gosh! It’s also not unknown for some people suffering from PTSD to alter their memories so they become more manageable less emotional. Of course it isn’t done over night but certainly can happen over a period of years. We can in effect change our inner history, believe things into existence. Remember the old adage "say that enough times and you'll start to believe it....". Again, I’m not sayig that is what has happened here just that it can happen.

That’s why in my original post I mentioned the time frame of when she went missing to when they left Portugal in the September.
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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by Inspectorfrost on 10.01.13 1:31

the Irish interview was in May 2011 amid the book launch, as was this other irish interview


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLvnfcl-Zkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player


one of the two became famous for gerry mccann saying, in answer to questions about the dogs, that it was THEM that asked for the dogs to be brought in for a more thorough search
lol!

eta after 27 mins in that video

Yes, he was asked about eddie and keela, in that interview, but glossed over this question with the half truth that he had asked for the dogs to be brought in, like the day after sniffer dogs, yes he did, but not THOSE dogs, oh dear

Mr Grime, Harrison, Amaral, Paiva, Tavares, Prior and others must have been cringing at best if they watched that

Sorry for going off topic, OP I have rarely seen the parents other than cold calculating and smirking and self serving

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Re: Guilt, Shame, Remorse, Humility.

Post by monkey mind on 10.01.13 1:57

Woofer wrote:Monkey Mind - its hard indeed to try and imagine how you would react if your small child had genuinely gone missing but does it get you anywhere, particularly as humans can be anywhere on the `normal to mad spectrum`?

It might be more telling to try and imagine how you would react and behave if you had accidentally, say in a fit of temper, killed your child while holidaying in a foreign country. Would you try and cover it up and find a way of getting her home and having a proper burial or would you come clean and throw yourself at the mercy of the foreign justice system? Of course, personality and present status will have a huge bearing, but even so, one would expect there would still be immense guilt and not blase blogging about jogging times.
Woofer yes you can have anything from normal to mad but if we remove the mad because that may be due to some illness then what we have is essentially degrees. The mechanism of the mind functions in a very similar fashion in all of us, if it didn’t it wouldn’t be possible to have a science of psychology. It would be a lottery. I think if you asked a group of a hundred ‘unmad’ people a very high percentage would feel one or more of the emotions I outlined don’t you? What would vary would be the degree to which a person felt it governed by conscience and attachment I guess.

As for your last question, to be honest I couldn’t begin to speculate as to what I might do. But yes, I’d expect there to be very similar feelings to the others we described. Take out the foreign country bit and I’m sure the situation you describe has happened countless times. Just because it was a fit of temper doesn’t mean you didn’t love the child does it?
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