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Cleaning of 5A

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by Nina on 08.03.17 19:02

We have been told that the McCann's had breakfast in the apartment, lunch, evening pre prandials and the children's snacks so there will have been quite a lot of packaging waste, maybe half bowls of soggy cereals, crockery and cutlery. The cleaner doesn't mention any of these signs of having eaten twice a day plus any nibbles/snacks. Maybe Kate is very tidy and clears everything in the kitchen at the end of the day and wipes spills from all surfaces in the kitchen and dining area.
I agree with Aquila that the Wednesday cleaning would have involved a bit of smoothing and fluffing up with a quick sweep, a quick mop and a wipe over the bathroom as well as renewing towels.
Interesting that towels offered to the dogs supposedly used by Madeleine, though how with all towels looking the same it is known who used which one, would have been new on the Wednesday clean. There is a photograph of draped towels probably drying after showers/baths so these will have been the renewed Wednesday towels

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by aquila on 08.03.17 19:21

f
@Nina wrote:We have been told that the McCann's had breakfast in the apartment, lunch, evening pre prandials and the children's snacks so there will have been quite a lot of packaging waste, maybe half bowls of soggy cereals, crockery and cutlery. The cleaner doesn't mention any of these signs of having eaten twice a day plus any nibbles/snacks. Maybe Kate is very tidy and clears everything in the kitchen at the end of the day and wipes spills from all surfaces in the kitchen and dining area.
I agree with Aquila that the Wednesday cleaning would have involved a bit of smoothing and fluffing up with a quick sweep, a quick mop and a wipe over the bathroom as well as renewing towels.
Interesting that towels offered to the dogs supposedly used by Madeleine, though how with all towels looking the same it is known who used which one, would have been new on the Wednesday clean. There is a photograph of draped towels probably drying after showers/baths so these will have been the renewed Wednesday towels
I forgot to mention a change of towels Nina.

What has been put forth by the McCanns is that the washing machine in their apartment wasn't working and was attended to. Then there is Kate McCann hand washing a tea stain off Madeleine's pyjamas.

I'd like to know how many pieces of luggage the McCanns took on holiday with them and checked in. There must surely be CCTV to show this as it wasn't 'sardine munching-side'.

Did the McCanns pack a bear minimum of clothing for their children and thought that they would have to rely upon a washing machine to get them through the week?
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by BlueBag on 08.03.17 19:23

@MayMuse wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Whats_up_doc,

I think there is no evidence for "thoroughly" except the quote from the book.

Where did the author get that from?

There's cleaning and there's cleaning.
Come on, are you going to join in and have a go because of a choice of a word.......really?  there's no evidence to suggest the cleaning was done thoroughly or otherwise..........but you have to admit apartment 5a was cleaned so exceptionally that there was no DNA traces of Madeleine, hence the pillowslip from her home used to compare. 

Let's focus on the actual thread eh!
Words are important.

The claim is that the cleaner cleaned "thoroughly".

I haven't seen any evidence for that claim.

I know she cleaned on Wednesday, she said so.

I know 5A was cleaned thoroughly.

I don't know that the cleaner said she cleaned it thoroughly.

Precision will always win. 

Pretend you are in a court of law.

That's the level of argument you need.
Semantics!

I do not have to pretend anything, I am not arguing or have argued, just outlined facts!

I can also read, the quote which came from a book ( any book) and compare with the PJ Files and make educated decisions on whether that is relevant or not AND not jump down any members throat!
Sorry but you have not demonstrated that the cleaner "thoroughly" cleaned the apartment.

This is not semantics.

It's precision.

"educated decisions "

You really wanted to say "educated guess" didn't you?


It wouldn't pass muster in a court of law.
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 19:26

@Nina wrote:We have been told that the McCann's had breakfast in the apartment, lunch, evening pre prandials and the children's snacks so there will have been quite a lot of packaging waste, maybe half bowls of soggy cereals, crockery and cutlery. The cleaner doesn't mention any of these signs of having eaten twice a day plus any nibbles/snacks. Maybe Kate is very tidy and clears everything in the kitchen at the end of the day and wipes spills from all surfaces in the kitchen and dining area.
I agree with Aquila that the Wednesday cleaning would have involved a bit of smoothing and fluffing up with a quick sweep, a quick mop and a wipe over the bathroom as well as renewing towels.
Interesting that towels offered to the dogs supposedly used by Madeleine, though how with all towels looking the same it is known who used which one, would have been new on the Wednesday clean. There is a photograph of draped towels probably drying after showers/baths so these will have been the renewed Wednesday towels
I don't think what the cleaner cleaned was in question, if Kate is that tidy as you say, it does not appear that she made the bed she apparently slept in the night before? 

In fact, I would question if any cleaner attended on the Thursday as they would have made the bed.

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 19:31

@BlueBag wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Whats_up_doc,

I think there is no evidence for "thoroughly" except the quote from the book.

Where did the author get that from?

There's cleaning and there's cleaning.
Come on, are you going to join in and have a go because of a choice of a word.......really?  there's no evidence to suggest the cleaning was done thoroughly or otherwise..........but you have to admit apartment 5a was cleaned so exceptionally that there was no DNA traces of Madeleine, hence the pillowslip from her home used to compare. 

Let's focus on the actual thread eh!
Words are important.

The claim is that the cleaner cleaned "thoroughly".

I haven't seen any evidence for that claim.

I know she cleaned on Wednesday, she said so.

I know 5A was cleaned thoroughly.

I don't know that the cleaner said she cleaned it thoroughly.

Precision will always win. 

Pretend you are in a court of law.

That's the level of argument you need.
Semantics!

I do not have to pretend anything, I am not arguing or have argued, just outlined facts!

I can also read, the quote which came from a book ( any book) and compare with the PJ Files and make educated decisions on whether that is relevant or not AND not jump down any members throat!
Sorry but you have not demonstrated that the cleaner "thoroughly" cleaned the apartment.

This is not semantics.

It's precision.

"educated decisions "

You really wanted to say "educated guess" didn't you?


It wouldn't pass muster in a court of law.
@BlueBag I do not have to demonstrate anything, it is not mine to "demonstrate" 


Thoroughly the word used by someone else is not the point, stop confusing issues. 

Wrong "guess" .......... is that an attempt to Psychic-analyse ? 

spin

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by BlueBag on 08.03.17 19:36

@MayMuse wrote:
@BlueBag I do not have to demonstrate anything, it is not mine to "demonstrate" 
If you can't put up then it's blather.
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by aquila on 08.03.17 19:42

I'm watching a spat on this forum between members who have the same goal at heart.

What you are both speaking about is not worthy of a personal fight from either of you.


Both of you contribute.

As patronising as that sounds (I'm not popular on this forum due to my outspoken and harsh ways) I wish you would conduct your dealings with more care for each other as I respect both of you and your opinions immensely.

That's polite for pack it in.
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 20:01

@aquila wrote:I'm watching a spat on this forum between members who have the same goal at heart.

What you are both speaking about is not worthy of a personal fight from either of you.


Both of you contribute.

As patronising as that sounds (I'm not popular on this forum due to my outspoken and harsh ways) I wish you would conduct your dealings with more care for each other as I respect both of you and your opinions immensely.

That's polite for pack it in.
Thank you, I respect you saying that, but there has not been any spat from me other than to defend another member and myself on a word used which really holds no weight! 

Verdi and Bluebag made it a bone of contention in a way that was unnecessary. 

And continued it. 


It took the thread off thread by these long term members exercising what exactly? 

New members are trying to get to grips with the minefield of information, they also may have done an about turn in their thinking since hearing of the SC ruling; some have given valuable input to the forum, and what they need is pointing in the right direction not to be jumped on, or made a fool of. 

I have experienced same, (from the same members) but stuck around and to see this continue perhaps I made the incorrect decision.

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 20:04

@BlueBag wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:
@BlueBag I do not have to demonstrate anything, it is not mine to "demonstrate" 
If you can't put up then it's blather.
Really, is that all you can say......derailing the thread and personal insults again! 

I despair!


I obviously made the wrong decision......my coat is on!

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by aquila on 08.03.17 20:10

@MayMuse wrote:
@aquila wrote:I'm watching a spat on this forum between members who have the same goal at heart.

What you are both speaking about is not worthy of a personal fight from either of you.


Both of you contribute.

As patronising as that sounds (I'm not popular on this forum due to my outspoken and harsh ways) I wish you would conduct your dealings with more care for each other as I respect both of you and your opinions immensely.

That's polite for pack it in.
Thank you, I respect you saying that, but there has not been any spat from me other than to defend another member and myself on a word used which really holds no weight! 

Verdi and Bluebag made it a bone of contention in a way that was unnecessary. 

And continued it. 


It took the thread off thread by these long term members exercising what exactly? 

New members are trying to get to grips with the minefield of information, they also may have done an about turn in their thinking since hearing of the SC ruling; some have given valuable input to the forum, and what they need is pointing in the right direction not to be jumped on, or made a fool of. 

I have experienced same, (from the same members) but stuck around and to see this continue perhaps I made the incorrect decision.
Don't worry about what new members might think. Keep on contributing valuable posts.  Verdi gets on my nerves and I've made no bones about that BUT Verdi has a complete grasp on information and is a valuable member of this forum even if the style is annoying. Verdi has a heart set in the same place as your own with regards to the disappearance of a three year-old.
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by tinkier on 08.03.17 20:13

@MayMuse  Looking at photos of the their bedroom etc I hardly think they were the tidiest of people. Re no DNA evidence... given that humans shed approx 30,000 - 40,000 skin cells an hour, approx a million cells in 24hrs, each one unique to each individual.. how remarkable is it that no traces of Madeleines DNA were found? I do vaguely remember a discussion many moons ago regarding a soiled sock of Madeleines that had been sent to the lab? I can't find any mention of this in the lab report, well not that I can find. Maybe another forum myth?
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 20:44

@Verdi wrote:
What's_up_doc? wrote:I read in the case file (I think) that the McCanns' apartment was thoroughly cleaned the day before by staff. They thought this would be beneficial for the investigation as any outsiders' forensic details would be easier to trace - making the fact they drew a blank even more puzzling.
What utter nonsense - I can't believe I've just read that.  Have you been on the myth?

Maverick cop Harry Callahan couldn't match that expletive.

I challenge you to find a link (any old link will do) to the PJ files to verify that carp.  Happy hunting..
So,what utter nonsense is this? 

The use of the word thoroughly or the cleaning of the apartment the day before...Which was being disputed? The cleaning is fact as in the Pj files and corroborated  in this thread......the word a quote from a book and truly irrelevant, yet  this type of reply to a new member?
So this carp, the word or the cleaning? 
Two long standing members harped on about a word and missed the importance of the links, videos and statements of the cleaner! You know "any old link"! 
How confusing! 
Continuing  unnecessarily, and with no apology Or direction  to this new member who produced where this information came from twice and mentioned the files in explanation. 
Still it continued. 
It is bullying, one that is expected from the "other side", not to members on the forum. 
Did you make a faux pas Verdi and forgot that the cleaner cleaned and the "thoroughly" word or whatever put the "utter" into your nonsense was a way of  backtracking from your comment that actually started it all?
 As how this thread has progressed it seems that way to me and this is exactly why my coat is on, sorry Jill and Tony but enough is enough, I hope that justice for Madeleine materialises through all of your good work, and thanks for having me.

____________________
“Basically, I’m just an ordinary, straightforward guy who’s the victim of the biggest f***-up on this planet – if you’ll excuse the language.”

Robert Murat talking to David Jones, Daily Mail, 02 June 2007

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by aquila on 08.03.17 21:03

@MayMuse wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
What's_up_doc? wrote:I read in the case file (I think) that the McCanns' apartment was thoroughly cleaned the day before by staff. They thought this would be beneficial for the investigation as any outsiders' forensic details would be easier to trace - making the fact they drew a blank even more puzzling.
What utter nonsense - I can't believe I've just read that.  Have you been on the myth?

Maverick cop Harry Callahan couldn't match that expletive.

I challenge you to find a link (any old link will do) to the PJ files to verify that carp.  Happy hunting..
So,what utter nonsense is this? 

The use of the word thoroughly or the cleaning of the apartment the day before...Which was being disputed? The cleaning is fact as in the Pj files and corroborated  in this thread......the word a quote from a book and truly irrelevant, yet  this type of reply to a new member?
So this carp, the word or the cleaning? 
Two long standing members harped on about a word and missed the importance of the links, videos and statements of the cleaner! You know "any old link"! 
How confusing! 
Continuing  unnecessarily, and with no apology Or direction  to this new member who produced where this information came from twice and mentioned the files in explanation. 
Still it continued. 
It is bullying, one that is expected from the "other side", not to members on the forum. 
Did you make a faux pas Verdi and forgot that the cleaner cleaned and the "thoroughly" word or whatever put the "utter" into your nonsense was a way of  backtracking from your comment that actually started it all?
 As how this thread has progressed it seems that way to me and this is exactly why my coat is on, sorry Jill and Tony but enough is enough, I hope that justice for Madeleine materialises through all of your good work, and thanks for having me.
To flounce or not to flounce, that is the question. Whether it is worth staying and putting ego aside is quite a different question.
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 21:22

@aquila wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
What's_up_doc? wrote:I read in the case file (I think) that the McCanns' apartment was thoroughly cleaned the day before by staff. They thought this would be beneficial for the investigation as any outsiders' forensic details would be easier to trace - making the fact they drew a blank even more puzzling.
What utter nonsense - I can't believe I've just read that.  Have you been on the myth?

Maverick cop Harry Callahan couldn't match that expletive.

I challenge you to find a link (any old link will do) to the PJ files to verify that carp.  Happy hunting..
So,what utter nonsense is this? 

The use of the word thoroughly or the cleaning of the apartment the day before...Which was being disputed? The cleaning is fact as in the Pj files and corroborated  in this thread......the word a quote from a book and truly irrelevant, yet  this type of reply to a new member?
So this carp, the word or the cleaning? 
Two long standing members harped on about a word and missed the importance of the links, videos and statements of the cleaner! You know "any old link"! 
How confusing! 
Continuing  unnecessarily, and with no apology Or direction  to this new member who produced where this information came from twice and mentioned the files in explanation. 
Still it continued. 
It is bullying, one that is expected from the "other side", not to members on the forum. 
Did you make a faux pas Verdi and forgot that the cleaner cleaned and the "thoroughly" word or whatever put the "utter" into your nonsense was a way of  backtracking from your comment that actually started it all?
 As how this thread has progressed it seems that way to me and this is exactly why my coat is on, sorry Jill and Tony but enough is enough, I hope that justice for Madeleine materialises through all of your good work, and thanks for having me.
To flounce or not to flounce, that is the question. Whether it is worth staying and putting ego aside is quite a different question.
 Aquila, Seen this time and again, I am not obliged or here to put up with what has transpired on this thread, it misses the purpose. 

No flounce or ego in coat!  When the door is open you leave the way you came in.
Good luck.

____________________
“Basically, I’m just an ordinary, straightforward guy who’s the victim of the biggest f***-up on this planet – if you’ll excuse the language.”

Robert Murat talking to David Jones, Daily Mail, 02 June 2007

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by aquila on 08.03.17 21:29

@MayMuse wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
What's_up_doc? wrote:I read in the case file (I think) that the McCanns' apartment was thoroughly cleaned the day before by staff. They thought this would be beneficial for the investigation as any outsiders' forensic details would be easier to trace - making the fact they drew a blank even more puzzling.
What utter nonsense - I can't believe I've just read that.  Have you been on the myth?

Maverick cop Harry Callahan couldn't match that expletive.

I challenge you to find a link (any old link will do) to the PJ files to verify that carp.  Happy hunting..
So,what utter nonsense is this? 

The use of the word thoroughly or the cleaning of the apartment the day before...Which was being disputed? The cleaning is fact as in the Pj files and corroborated  in this thread......the word a quote from a book and truly irrelevant, yet  this type of reply to a new member?
So this carp, the word or the cleaning? 
Two long standing members harped on about a word and missed the importance of the links, videos and statements of the cleaner! You know "any old link"! 
How confusing! 
Continuing  unnecessarily, and with no apology Or direction  to this new member who produced where this information came from twice and mentioned the files in explanation. 
Still it continued. 
It is bullying, one that is expected from the "other side", not to members on the forum. 
Did you make a faux pas Verdi and forgot that the cleaner cleaned and the "thoroughly" word or whatever put the "utter" into your nonsense was a way of  backtracking from your comment that actually started it all?
 As how this thread has progressed it seems that way to me and this is exactly why my coat is on, sorry Jill and Tony but enough is enough, I hope that justice for Madeleine materialises through all of your good work, and thanks for having me.
To flounce or not to flounce, that is the question. Whether it is worth staying and putting ego aside is quite a different question.
 Aquila, Seen this time and again, I am not obliged or here to put up with what has transpired on this thread, it misses the purpose. 

No flounce or ego in coat!  When the door is open you leave the way you came in.
Good luck.
It's still a flounce whichever way you wrap it up.
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 23:29

You can have the last word on that Aquila, it's not true but your prerogative.

Just before I leave, if Verdi and Bluebag are going to make a song and dance about the word "thoroughly" ...We know that normal cleaning would not produce a "forensically" clean result, and if that "word" is of the highest importance, then say so instead of being so curt and cloak and dagger-ish!

We know a forensically clean apartment raises eyebrows, and points to probable foul play prior to the third, and that possibly help was acquired, it is no secret.

Verdi said "All will be revealed"? 
What will.......still waiting for an answer,  fortunately I won't  be around for that answer. 


I bid you Good night, sleep soundly. 


Au Revoir



----------------------

A Mod writes:

After this thread lay dormant for a full 7 years, it has been revived - but in barely 24 hours it has not brought credit to the forum, at a time when we are being watched probably more intently and by more people than ever.

Assessing the days' events, it has been a veritable storm in a tea-cup.

We will close the thread for a while as it's generated a whole lot more heat than light.

The trouble began with @What's_up_doc? posting this:  
"I read in the case file (I think) that the McCanns' apartment was thoroughly cleaned the day before by staff. They thought this would be beneficial for the investigation as any outsiders' forensic details would be easier to trace - making the fact they drew a blank even more puzzling".

@What's_up_doc? admitted, rightly, that this was 'a bit sloppy'. Moreover it was a sort of quote from that very useless book on Madeleine by Peter Scharrenberg, which didn't help us at all. But what @What's_up_doc? did do for us was to use the cleaner's statement - and the fact that the room had been cleaned by an observant cleaner - to suggest that whatever happened to Madeleine probably happened before Wednesday 2 May.

The thread revealed, in the end, that only Peter Scharrenberg had added the word 'thoroughly'. 

'Sleep on it', say some, while others say 'Tomorrow is another day'.

Let's resolve to be polite to each other if we possibly can - Mod


10 March - THREAD RE-OPENED TO DISCUSS 'THE CLEANING OF 5A'. Let us all together, patiently, clarify and explore this important topic - Mod  

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Robert Murat talking to David Jones, Daily Mail, 02 June 2007

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by Phoebe on 10.04.17 20:53

Reading the P.J. files again I came across the statement of Marina Castela which has puzzled me. The latter is in charge of "Hygiene and comfort" of all apartments in the Ocean Club - I presume she is the Housekeeper? In her statement she says that, on learning the McCanns were a family of 5, "the respective travel agency (M.W?) contacted and activated the childcare service. This service is composed of employees of British nationality who are installed for their length of service in the tourist complex...this service is responsible for placing the children's beds in the rooms...the deponent further states that her responsibility is the hygiene of the apartments, not touching the children's beds, as it is the CHILD CARE (sic) service which effects the changing of bed linens of these same beds". A couple of things struck me. A) she is very keen to distance herself from any bed linen changes, B) who IS this child care service? the nannies? They make no mention of this part of their duties if so. If they are occupied from 9 a.m. to 5.30.p.m. when do they get the time to change beds? Did anyone question this childcare service or anyone else about Madeleine's bed linen, especially since it bore no traces of her D.N.A. Were they asked to change it and if so, when?
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