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Cleaning of 5A

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 12:42

Maria Julia Serafim da Silva
5As cleaner
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 16H45
Cleaner

Portuguese

Concerning the issue of the process said:


Maria Julia S. da Silva.

Upon being asked, she states that she is a cleaner and has been working as such for around 13 years with the company 'THE OCEAN CLUB'. Her two daughters, FM and DI work with her in the same department.

Regarding her job, she points out that she is the person who is responsible for cleaning Block 5, more specifically apartments A, B, C, D, H, I, K, L, M and P, and also states that when the child disappeared only apartments A, B, D, G, H and K were occupied. She declares that she is the only employee who cleans these apartments, and has help when new customers arrive or leave. When preparing apartment A, where the Mc Cann family were to be installed, she says that she carried out the preparations with the help of her colleague DNA, on Saturday the 28th. She remembers that when preparing this apartment, she had just been notified that the apartment was to be occupied by 5 (five) people; she was unaware of children in the group. However, at the exact moment when she and her colleague DTNA were preparing the room, personnel from the company MARK WARNER entered the apartment and proceeded to place two children's beds. It was at this moment that they learned that children would be sleeping in the apartment. 

When questioned, she declares that the fact a third company placed the children's beds inside the apartment is common. Also, she says that when the reservation of the apartments is in the hands of the MARK WARNER travel agency, it is this company that is responsible for placing the beds. On the other hand, when other travel agencies are involved, placing the children's beds is carried out by 'THE OCEAN CLUB' company itself.

With respect to her activities performed directly in the apartment, she declares that the last time she entered the apartment was on the Wednesday prior to the events, specifically on the 2nd of May, when she cleaned the apartment. When questioned, she declares that as opposed to what is established, on Thursday the 3rd and due to other chores, she did not have time to collect the garbage bags.

She remembers that when she entered Apartment A on the Wednesday, the parents were inside. After being duly authorized, she entered and carried out her work, because they were already on their way out. While she was in the apartment, there were no children there, and she supposed that they were in the creche. While performing her work, she remembers having noticed that the couple was sleeping in the room located opposite the entrance, where she confirmed the presence of a child's bed (crib). The room gives onto an outdoor garden by means of a terrace, as it is on the ground floor,. In the room next to the entrance to the apartment there was a bed placed next to the wall (where she supposed the missing child slept), and also the second child's bed (crib). All these beds were untidy at the time, meaning that they had been used. She also declares that in the room next to the entrance was another bed that had not been used.........

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by Mirage on 08.03.17 13:22

From "Cleaners" thread, this:

QUOTE:

Official Enquiry Files
Post by Guest on Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:05 pm

On the official enquiry files where the PJ's request rogatory statements is this comment:

"The before mentioned maid alleged that, when she was cleaning, the shutters were open, since she noticed the light was entering. This was also denied by the McCANN couple, who assured that they closed the shutters of MADELEINE's bedroom since the first day and that's how they kept them."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm#rr111

It's very interesting but I can't find anything, does anyone know if there was a subsequent interview?

END.
............
Seems to me Mrs da Silva noticed a fair amount of detail during her cleaning. She noticed where the cots were located too, I believe. Overall, she seems like a solidly reliable person who would have done the mid-week clean efficiently. This impression is confirmed by an interview with her featured in a Hideho video which I cannot bring across presently.

The above bolded part in guest's comment is a rogatory request from the PJ. Who, but the McCanns could have  supplied a specific answer to Leics police about the state of the shutter?

However, they were not interviewed. Or should I say, in the interests of accuracy, the PJ did not release evidence of any such rogatory interview of the McCanns in 2008 having taken place when the tapas group were questioned.

What IS on record, however, within  the text of those interviews is that:

A. The McCanns were able to request Leics police to ask their  group at least  one question on THEIR OWN BEHALF.
and
B. At least one tapas member was permitted by Leics police to to "REFRESH MY MEMORY"  by looking at his wife's statement.

Now whose testimony seems more reliable and closely observed in the light of all the above? That of Mrs da Silva?  Or that of the, "er,  erm, you know," brigade and the McCanns, who were not even questioned about the  shutters?

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 13:31







Both worth watching, thanks to HiDeHo smilie

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by Verdi on 08.03.17 13:57

What's_up_doc? wrote:It doesn't say thoroughly I'm content to know she did clean the apartment on May 2 and I believe it was most likely thorough enough to further eliminate incriminating evidence. Neither does it say 'superficially.' This is something that should have been established - what exactly did she do? She didn't actually remove the rubbish - she says she didn't have time. I've given you two sources that corroborate what I said which is the apartment was cleaned and the first states thoroughly.  From my experience of holidays, sheets are changed at least mid week and floors are washed. Bathrooms are cleaned and towels are changed. The kitchen is wiped over.  I didn't say forensically. I think the comments made in 'The Truth is Out There' are credible. 

The point I wanted to make is that if the apartment was cleaned am. on May 2, I think we can eliminate the night of May 1 as the time Maddie came to harm, because I don't think  curtains would have dried or smells eliminated in that space of time. It also means that the apartment has been cleaned a second time (at least)  meaning there is greater confidence for any perpetrators that evidence has been eliminated. The fact that there is no forensic evidence of Maddie being in the apartment after May 2 suggests we should go back, not forward, to establish the crime date.  I am only making inferences here and they are no more than that - but for me this explains the choice of May 3 as the night of potential staging and takes the date of the possible crime back to 31 April at the latest - in my opinion.
Please don't shout - it hurts my eyes.

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 14:19

@Verdi wrote:
What's_up_doc? wrote:I read in the case file (I think) that the McCanns' apartment was thoroughly cleaned the day before by staff. They thought this would be beneficial for the investigation as any outsiders' forensic details would be easier to trace - making the fact they drew a blank even more puzzling.
What utter nonsense - I can't believe I've just read that.  Have you been on the myth?

Maverick cop Harry Callahan couldn't match that expletive.

I challenge you to find a link (any old link will do) to the PJ files to verify that carp.  Happy hunting..
It's all here @Verdi

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm

And confirmed on the two videos posted upthread.

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by Guest on 08.03.17 14:22

I wasn't shouting  - I was writing on the hoof, on my phone, the text didn't look bigger on my phone and that's all. Neither was I 'floundering' as you said earlier. I'm confident enough to know that what I said was perfectly reasonable and didn't warrant your disproportionate response. Also, I've looked at enough old threads on this site to know I'm not the first and probably won't be the last person you will pounce on because they irritate you. And I really, really liked the book you dismissed so rudely - I don't agree with everything in it but but I'm okay with that and as the title says, The Truth is Out There and no one person has all the answers in my opinion. Have a nice day!
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by BlueBag on 08.03.17 14:35

Whats_up_doc,

I think there is no evidence for "thoroughly" except the quote from the book.

Where did the author get that from?

There's cleaning and there's cleaning.
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 14:40

@BlueBag wrote:Whats_up_doc,

I think there is no evidence for "thoroughly" except the quote from the book.

Where did the author get that from?

There's cleaning and there's cleaning.
Come on, are you going to join in and have a go because of a choice of a word.......really?  there's no evidence to suggest the cleaning was done thoroughly or otherwise..........but you have to admit apartment 5a was cleaned so exceptionally that there was no DNA traces of Madeleine, hence the pillowslip from her home used to compare. 

Let's focus on the actual thread eh!

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by Verdi on 08.03.17 15:34

@MayMuse wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
What's_up_doc? wrote:I read in the case file (I think) that the McCanns' apartment was thoroughly cleaned the day before by staff. They thought this would be beneficial for the investigation as any outsiders' forensic details would be easier to trace - making the fact they drew a blank even more puzzling.
What utter nonsense - I can't believe I've just read that.  Have you been on the myth?

Maverick cop Harry Callahan couldn't match that expletive.

I challenge you to find a link (any old link will do) to the PJ files to verify that carp.  Happy hunting..
It's all here @Verdi

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm

And confirmed on the two videos posted upthread.
@MayMuse

You appear to be missing the point.  I've already said I don't think anyone is doubting the cleaner's witness statement.  Read the original claim that you've repeated above again, in conjunction with the rest of the post - all will be revealed.

As anticipated the subject is already developing wings.

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 15:39

@Verdi wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
What's_up_doc? wrote:I read in the case file (I think) that the McCanns' apartment was thoroughly cleaned the day before by staff. They thought this would be beneficial for the investigation as any outsiders' forensic details would be easier to trace - making the fact they drew a blank even more puzzling.
What utter nonsense - I can't believe I've just read that.  Have you been on the myth?

Maverick cop Harry Callahan couldn't match that expletive.

I challenge you to find a link (any old link will do) to the PJ files to verify that carp.  Happy hunting..
It's all here @Verdi

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm

And confirmed on the two videos posted upthread.
@MayMuse

You appear to be missing the point.  I've already said I don't think anyone is doubting the cleaner's witness statement.  Read the original claim that you've repeated above again, in conjunction with the rest of the post - all will be revealed.

As anticipated the subject is already developing wings.
@Verdi
What will be "revealed"? 
Do you have inside information? 
Please explain the "missing point"? 
As far as I can see I have made no claim other than post two videos and the statement of the cleaner!
This thread has got very confusing in my opinion.

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by Verdi on 08.03.17 15:46

What's_up_doc? wrote:I wasn't shouting  - I was writing on the hoof, on my phone, the text didn't look bigger on my phone and that's all. Neither was I 'floundering' as you said earlier. I'm confident enough to know that what I said was perfectly reasonable and didn't warrant your disproportionate response. Also, I've looked at enough old threads on this site to know I'm not the first and probably won't be the last person you will pounce on because they irritate you. And I really, really liked the book you dismissed so rudely - I don't agree with everything in it but but I'm okay with that and as the title says, The Truth is Out There and no one person has all the answers in my opinion. Have a nice day!
I have no problem with you liking a book, the point is you were using it as a credible source of information, which it isn't.

Stick to the PJ files and other informed sources to frame your opinion and you won't be misinformed.  As you know, this forum is also a rich source of information and beneficial toward a greater understanding of the case of missing Madeleine McCann but this won't be achieved by checking out the posting history of other members.

Post content is the important factor.

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 15:50

Sorry, but this thread to me is moot, @Verdi you antagonised a member, and now since you are a mod ( as of today) have put a different spin on your tone? 
Is that fair? 
It puts people off from posting.

The links were put up, and other people quote from different sources on different threads, that is apparent all over the forum. It is unfair to just pick on a member for quotes when they are trying to make sense of the McCann mess! 

Remember new members join nearly every day and patience is needed in my opinion. 

Am I upset by this thread and its tone, you bet I am. 

Thanks

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by Verdi on 08.03.17 15:55

@MayMuse wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Whats_up_doc,

I think there is no evidence for "thoroughly" except the quote from the book.

Where did the author get that from?

There's cleaning and there's cleaning.
Come on, are you going to join in and have a go because of a choice of a word.......really?  there's no evidence to suggest the cleaning was done thoroughly or otherwise..........but you have to admit apartment 5a was cleaned so exceptionally that there was no DNA traces of Madeleine, hence the pillowslip from her home used to compare. 

Let's focus on the actual thread eh!
That is fundementally incorrect.  The PJ forensic team wouldn't be looking for Madeleine's DNA, they know she was there at some point in time - Madeleine's DNA profile is a whole different matter altogether. 

This thread is about the cleaning of apartment 5a - not Madeleine's DNA.

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 15:57

@Verdi wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Whats_up_doc,

I think there is no evidence for "thoroughly" except the quote from the book.

Where did the author get that from?

There's cleaning and there's cleaning.
Come on, are you going to join in and have a go because of a choice of a word.......really?  there's no evidence to suggest the cleaning was done thoroughly or otherwise..........but you have to admit apartment 5a was cleaned so exceptionally that there was no DNA traces of Madeleine, hence the pillowslip from her home used to compare. 

Let's focus on the actual thread eh!
That is fundementally incorrect.  The PJ forensic team wouldn't be looking for Madeleine's DNA, they know she was there at some point in time - Madeleine's DNA profile is a whole different matter altogether. 

This thread is about the cleaning of apartment 5a - not Madeleine's DNA.
Fundamentally it goes hand in hand.

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by Mirage on 08.03.17 16:20

I don't believe anyone is in a position to assert: " The PJ forensic team wouldn't be looking for Madeleine's DNA, they know she was there at some point in time." unless they witnessed that forensic team at work, were au fait with the investigation, or it is specified somewhere. Evidence?

To coin a useful phrase from Judge Judy: DON'T TELL ME WHAT THEY KNEW. THAT'S HEARSAY" (she generally shouts that so that the person concerned gets the message).

Has not Goncalo Amaral at some point opined that the children were all in one room with one adult present? Who knows where that line of thinking may have taken him.

ETA. It is an absolute minefield sifting through information as May Muse indicates regarding the McCann mess. If everyone is going to have a spotlight put on them requiring courtroom accuracy, then that level of scrutiny must apply to all. This being the point of the above post.

Much better to make points without personalising issues. Implying someone might be quote "on the myth" is unhelpful to put it politely. Especially if one is to intervene in matters of decorum in the role of mod.

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by BlueBag on 08.03.17 17:00

@MayMuse wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Whats_up_doc,

I think there is no evidence for "thoroughly" except the quote from the book.

Where did the author get that from?

There's cleaning and there's cleaning.
Come on, are you going to join in and have a go because of a choice of a word.......really?  there's no evidence to suggest the cleaning was done thoroughly or otherwise..........but you have to admit apartment 5a was cleaned so exceptionally that there was no DNA traces of Madeleine, hence the pillowslip from her home used to compare. 

Let's focus on the actual thread eh!
Words are important.

The claim is that the cleaner cleaned "thoroughly".

I haven't seen any evidence for that claim.

I know she cleaned on Wednesday, she said so.

I know 5A was cleaned thoroughly.

I don't know that the cleaner said she cleaned it thoroughly.

Precision will always win. 

Pretend you are in a court of law.

That's the level of argument you need.
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 18:08

@BlueBag wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:Whats_up_doc,

I think there is no evidence for "thoroughly" except the quote from the book.

Where did the author get that from?

There's cleaning and there's cleaning.
Come on, are you going to join in and have a go because of a choice of a word.......really?  there's no evidence to suggest the cleaning was done thoroughly or otherwise..........but you have to admit apartment 5a was cleaned so exceptionally that there was no DNA traces of Madeleine, hence the pillowslip from her home used to compare. 

Let's focus on the actual thread eh!
Words are important.

The claim is that the cleaner cleaned "thoroughly".

I haven't seen any evidence for that claim.

I know she cleaned on Wednesday, she said so.

I know 5A was cleaned thoroughly.

I don't know that the cleaner said she cleaned it thoroughly.

Precision will always win. 

Pretend you are in a court of law.

That's the level of argument you need.
Semantics!

I do not have to pretend anything, I am not arguing or have argued, just outlined facts!

I can also read, the quote which came from a book ( any book) and compare with the PJ Files and make educated decisions on whether that is relevant or not AND not jump down any members throat!

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 08.03.17 18:18

Well if the cleaner cleaned the apartment, then who was it that cleaned it 'forensically', including the curtains, so that none of Maddie's DNA was found?

There is a difference between one method of cleaning and another.
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 18:22

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:Well if the cleaner cleaned the apartment, then who was it that cleaned it 'forensically', including the curtains, so that none of Maddie's DNA was found?

There is a difference between one method of cleaning and another.
Indeed, and that should be the point of the thread. 

Time it would take to clean "forensically" and by whom, and not to point out a "word" used in a quote when the poster member was learning that the apartment had been cleaned the previous day by an employee of the OC. 

I wonder just how "clean" the apartment was on the day it was cleaned by this cleaner?

On an add note, wasn't the cover on the bed by the window tested originally and changed from semen to saliva from a previous Childs occupancy ( poss. the week before)? 

So how clean is clean? 

Unable to find the link at the moment, but I have read that in an FSS report.

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by aquila on 08.03.17 18:23

A quick push of a broom, a quick swish round with a mop, a quick flick of a duster, a quick wipe around the bathroom and kitchen, emptying the bins and a change of bedlinen is the norm a holiday apartment gets whilst occupied and in a state of untidiness from its holidaymakers.

Anything other than that would not be considered normal.
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 18:29

@aquila wrote:A quick push of a broom, a quick swish round with a mop, a quick flick of a duster, a quick wipe around the bathroom and kitchen, emptying the bins and a change of bedlinen is the norm a holiday apartment gets whilst occupied and in a state of untidiness from its holidaymakers.

Anything other than that would not be considered normal.
Germ busting  yes

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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 08.03.17 18:33

Of course, I should have said except for what Keela found behind the sofa.
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by Phoebe on 08.03.17 18:41

It's inconceivable that Madeleine left no trace of her D.N.A. on her pillow-case. Even if it had been changed by the cleaner on Wednesday (and she never said that she had) Madeleine allegedly slept there on at least Wed .night for about twelve hours and Thurs. night for two and a half hours. That's fourteen and a half hours close contact with an object yet - not a hair, a skin cell, an eyelash, nor traces of a cough, sneeze, sigh or drool. No finger or thumb in mouth later transferring saliva to the pillow or sheets.Given that police often catch intruders, who have only spent a few minutes in a room through the D.N.A. left at the scene it's quite remarkable. Has Op.Grange tackled this puzzle I wonder?
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by aquila on 08.03.17 18:42

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:Of course, I should have said except for what Keela found behind the sofa.
Bleach doesn't get rid of blood very effectively. From what I've read hydrogen peroxide is a much better choice although not foolproof.
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Re: Cleaning of 5A

Post by MayMuse on 08.03.17 18:50

@Mirage wrote:I don't believe anyone is in a position to assert: " The PJ forensic team would not looking for Madeleine's DNA, they know she was there at some point in time." unless they witnessed that forensic team at work, were au fait with the investigation, or it is specified somewhere. Evidence?

To coin a useful phrase from Judge Judy: DON'T TELL ME WHAT THEY KNEW. THAT'S HEARSAY" (she generally shouts that so that the person concerned gets the message).

Has not Goncalo Amaral at some point opined that the children were all in one room with one adult present? Who knows where that line of thinking may have taken him.
A little off thread, but as an after thought ( just sprung to mind) with what Mirage has said...........
Does anyone actually know for sure that Madeleine stayed in apartment 5a other than the "hearsay" of her parents, 
( remembering there was no toothbrush etc to determine DNA) and David Payne on his visit (on the evening of the 3rd) when they were all in angelic white bedtime attire? 

Obviously she was holidaying with her parents, but I do not recall reading in the files of any other independent sighting of Madeleine actually "seen" in 5a, if any member knows please can they direct to the relevant info, thanks.

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“Basically, I’m just an ordinary, straightforward guy who’s the victim of the biggest f***-up on this planet – if you’ll excuse the language.” bingo

Robert Murat talking to David Jones, Daily Mail, 02 June 2007

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