Dogs, more dogs, fridges and apartments.....

tigger wrote:
In parts...  Thing with CC is, his presence was immediate proof that she'd been  abducted. I think the cadaverine was probably from contamination. If he'd been with Maddie during and just before the accident, he'd have had blood on him as well, which is hard to get out just with washing.
He also looked brand-new, (quite a lot of comments on this from mothers here who know what a new toy looks like after even a short while in the hands of a toddler)  his history was contradictory, bought at the airport by her godfather, or been with her since she was a baby.

Fair enough, although I'll just stick with Occam's Razor and assume that CC was with Madeleine when she died.

Also, I don't see how you can say with certainty that CC would have had blood on him. It's just as possible that any blood managed to miss CC.

tigger wrote:
Or because cuddlecat had never been anywhere near Maddie and had only just started his starring role.
With possible the merest scent of  Eau de Kate on it.

Going back to this - if CC had never been near Maddie, then why not hand it to the police for the false scent rather than the suspicious blanket?

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

tigger wrote:
In parts...  Thing with CC is, his presence was immediate proof that she'd been  abducted. I think the cadaverine was probably from contamination. If he'd been with Maddie during and just before the accident, he'd have had blood on him as well, which is hard to get out just with washing.
He also looked brand-new, (quite a lot of comments on this from mothers here who know what a new toy looks like after even a short while in the hands of a toddler)  his history was contradictory, bought at the airport by her godfather, or been with her since she was a baby.

Fair enough, although I'll just stick with Occam's Razor and assume that CC was with Madeleine when she died.

Also, I don't see how you can say with certainty that CC would have had blood on him.  It's just as possible that any blood managed to miss CC.

That would be the simplest solution. CC bugs me because he merited two websites of his own, yet where he was bought or who manufactired the toy doesn't seem to be known. Yet Metodo3 were given some 20 ccs to inspire their staf, iirc Kate told them to rattle and squeeze them to motivate them when looking for M. I think all the left over Ccs ended up on the website of a close friend of Kate's, that's where I found Cc last
Cc was also festooned in a rosary and good quality wristbands, where Cc is concerned I take no prisoners, he was a prop from start to finish - and that makes me sick.

So I'm not being argumentative, no more than usual anyway - CC betrays the mindset of the parents imo.
It is in fact not important how the cadaverine was acquired, you may be right or perhaps I am, it's what's behind this minor and yet so very well thought out aspect of the whole performance.

tigger wrote:
That would be the simplest solution. CC bugs me because he merited two websites of his own, yet where he was bought or who manufactired the toy doesn't seem to be known. Yet Metodo3 were given some 20 ccs to inspire their staf, iirc Kate told them to rattle and squeeze them to motivate them when looking for M. I think all the left over Ccs ended up on the website of a close friend of Kate's, that's where I found Cc last
Cc was also festooned in a rosary and good quality wristbands, where Cc is concerned I take no prisoners, he was a prop from start to finish - and that  makes me sick.

So I'm not being argumentative, no more than usual anyway - CC betrays the mindset of the parents imo.
It is in fact not important how the cadaverine was acquired, you may be right or perhaps I am, it's what's behind this minor and yet so very well thought out aspect of the whole performance.

I enjoy the discussions we have tigger :) Yes, from my perspective I'm not saying that you're wrong, just pointing out the simplest solution.

I tend to think that they just capitalised on the image of Cuddlecat, rather than it being part of a grand plan.

4^th May I believe, obviously just before CC became such a valuable accoutrement!

Sorry its vanished. Try again.



http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/4May2007/kate-mccann-missing-british-3-year-old-girl-madeleine-mccann-in-portugal-0setFl.jpg

Searcher wrote:This may be more suitable for a timeline thread, but have just found this video - c. 11 mins - on YouTube which discusses an earlier event than 3 May.  Worth watching right through:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbqRmhBFpQY

Oh My God. 

I had not seen that first interview. 

Chilling. Especially if you slow it down on the settings. At one setting you can still hear what they say but the words and body language are more pronounced. At the slowest setting you cannot hear the words but you can get all the nuances of the facial expressions and body language.

Notice what GM says at 1.27 - 1.28. And covers his mouth at the same time.

"She literally dropped it dead."

KM then becomes very agitated about Madeleine's 'statement'. Waving her hand in front of her face as if to fan herself.

As she repeats: "What d'you mean? What d'you mean? What d'you mean, you woke up?" she makes gestures with her hands as if she had wanted to shake Madeleine to find out what she meant."

Why is it so terrible that Madeleine "woke up"? 

When did Madeleine 'wake up' and what made her wake up? (I believe it was on an earlier night in the holiday.)

Why is Kate so traumatized by the knowledge that Madeleine 'woke up'?

What night does Kate think someone went into the apartment? Who does she think this might have been? Is this when she thinks that Madeleine 'woke up?' Is that why it is so traumatic for Kate? That afterwards she believes that Madeleine tried to tell her something bad had happened, but that Kate didn't manage to get to the bottom of it. To really hold her and find out what happened?

When did, according to GM, 'Madeleine, literally dropped it  dead?'

If you slow the footage down, it is really quite chilling viewing. 

I think that GM and KM are singing from different hymn sheets here. And I have a theory as to why that would be. 

Is that a tiny little smurk from GM at 1.24? And possibly another at 1.32 when he is musing on whether it happened when we 'put them down.' (I really dislike his choice of words and expressions.) After which he scrunches up his face totally unconvincingly.

Oh lock them them up FFS, Scotland Yard (particularly GM)  and stop this CHARADE.

j.rob wrote:

Searcher wrote:This may be more suitable for a timeline thread, but have just found this video - c. 11 mins - on YouTube which discusses an earlier event than 3 May.  Worth watching right through:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbqRmhBFpQY

Oh My God. 

I had not seen that first interview. 

Chilling. Especially if you slow it down on the settings. At one setting you can still hear what they say but the words and body language are more pronounced. At the slowest setting you cannot hear the words but you can get all the nuances of the facial expressions and body language.

Notice what GM says at 1.27 - 1.28. And covers his mouth at the same time.

"She literally dropped it dead."

KM then becomes very agitated about Madeleine's 'statement'. Waving her hand in front of her face as if to fan herself.

As she repeats: "What d'you mean? What d'you mean? What d'you mean, you woke up?" she makes gestures with her hands as if she had wanted to shake Madeleine to find out what she meant."

Why is it so terrible that Madeleine "woke up"? 

When did Madeleine 'wake up' and what made her wake up? (I believe it was on an earlier night in the holiday.)

Why is Kate so traumatized by the knowledge that Madeleine 'woke up'?

What night does Kate think someone went into the apartment? Who does she think this might have been? Is this when she thinks that Madeleine 'woke up?' Is that why it is so traumatic for Kate? That afterwards she believes that Madeleine tried to tell her something bad had happened, but that Kate didn't manage to get to the bottom of it. To really hold her and find out what happened?

When did, according to GM, 'Madeleine, literally dropped it  dead?'

If you slow the footage down, it is really quite chilling viewing. 

I think that GM and KM are singing from different hymn sheets here. And I have a theory as to why that would be. 

Is that a tiny little smurk from GM at 1.24? And possibly another at 1.32 when he is musing on whether it happened when we 'put them down.' (I really dislike his choice of words and expressions.) After which he scrunches up his face totally unconvincingly.

Oh lock them them up FFS, Scotland Yard (particularly GM)  and stop this CHARADE.

If it happened when they "put them down" surely one of them was there so would have heard her anyway, What trollox these two talk.

His face reddens when he says 'put them down' so obvious he is lying

Searcher wrote:This may be more suitable for a timeline thread, but have just found this video - c. 11 mins - on YouTube which discusses an earlier event than 3 May.  Worth watching right through:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbqRmhBFpQY

What brilliant video and observation - A Redwood would do well to watch this...

HelenMeg wrote:

Searcher wrote:This may be more suitable for a timeline thread, but have just found this video - c. 11 mins - on YouTube which discusses an earlier event than 3 May.  Worth watching right through:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbqRmhBFpQY

What brilliant video and observation - A Redwood would do well to watch this...

Brilliant video - a must watch

I'm sick of Gerry's crap.

"It would be exceptional for particularly the twins to cry and go back to sleep in between our checks".

HOW COULD HE KNOW?

BS of the highest order.

I think that GM and KM are singing from different hymn sheets here. And I have a theory as to why that would be. 


------

Also, notice how Kate puts emphasis on how it was important that the police were told about the possibility of someone having gone into the apartment on a previous evening. She's not so much flagging up the crying incident - in that first video clip - as flagging up the idea of someone having gone into the apartment. Leading to Madeleine crying.

Oh dear, oh dear. 

I know there has been some speculation about photos of Madeleine possibly having been taken in Burgau. If this was the case, I wonder when the photos might have been taken?

Whatever the situation, the photos of Madeleine that were released on an 'anniversary date' I do believe, showing her with make-up and the one with the ice-cream plus her lying back against a skirting-board, are all in highly bad taste, at best. And very suspicious, imo.

And I really do wonder what was going on on the first three days of the 'holiday' - Saturday, Sunday and Monday. 

Sadly, I think that by Tuesday, Madeleine's return airfare was no longer going to be used (if it was ever going to be used, that is.)

Horrible case this is, imo.

On TUESDAY evening KATE MCCANN Stormed off in a huff from the Tappas bar having been humiliated by GM because he gave the quiz master (aka big boobs) more attention than he gave km

 KATE MCCANN
UPON her return "to apt 5A  was confronted by MBM standing in the lounge sobbng. KM  said got to bed and MBM stood bewildered and defiant ...
KM  shouted again "MBM GO BACK TO BED "
MBM Said I want my daddy
KM shoves MBM in the bedroom where MBM cries daddy daddy

Kate thinks to herself your daddy isa womaneyser and when Maddie appears in front of KM
KM hits Maddie

she falls on the floor and
he crying Mrs Fenn hears is KM crying MADDIE not Daddy

GM returns (pisssed up) and sees his beloved daughter dead ...........by his Bleoved wife hand.


what is he going to do


shop her so his carear is over and he loses his ywins ot stick by her and cover her tracks?




imo km KILLED mbm BY ACCIDENT

I just wish they had the guts to come clean .   I would respect them

Dont Make Me Laff wrote:On TUESDAY evening KATE MCCANN Stormed off in a huff from the Tappas bar having been humiliated by GM because he gave the quiz master (aka big boobs) more attention than he gave km

 KATE MCCANN
UPON her return "to apt 5A  was confronted by MBM standing in the lounge sobbng. KM  said got to bed and MBM stood bewildered and defiant ...
KM  shouted again "MBM GO BACK TO BED "
MBM Said I want my daddy
KM shoves MBM in the bedroom where MBM cries daddy daddy

Kate thinks to herself your daddy isa womaneyser and when Maddie appears in front of KM
KM hits Maddie

she falls on the floor and
he crying Mrs Fenn hears is KM crying MADDIE not Daddy

GM returns (pisssed up) and sees his beloved daughter dead ...........by his Bleoved wife hand.


what is he going to do


shop her so his carear is over and he loses his ywins ot stick by her and cover her tracks?




imo km KILLED mbm BY ACCIDENT

I just wish they had the guts to come clean .   I would respect them

Certainly possible. 

If the quiz night had happened on Monday night, then the jig-saw would fit together quite well. (Although I would still be questioning what happened on Sunday and Monday as there is a conspicuous absence of detail for the day's activities for those two days. Unlike the other days.) Because I think that by Tuesday, TM were feeling the need to fake photographic 'evidence' that Madeleine was alive and well and in the kids' club  (the tennis ball photo). Which suggests to me that by Tuesday Madeleine was certainly not well, and possibly not alive either.

So what happened prior to Tuesday?

And if it was Madeleine crying that Mrs Fenn heard crying on Tuesday evening why - if something bad had already happened to Madeleine by Tuesday - would the McCanns leave a sick/injured/dying Madeleine to cry out in distress for an hour and a quarter? Even if they were the most despicable parents, surely if some kind of fate had befallen Madeleine by then, the last thing they would want to do would be to draw attention to themselves and Madeleine with an hour and a quarter of anguished crying coming from the apartment?

So maybe it WAS Kate crying out 'Maddie' in distress (and this would explain why Kate was keen to state in her book that Madeleine did not like being called 'Maddie', despite abundant evidence that she was known as Maddie.)

In which case I just wonder if this might have been the day that Madeleine was removed from the apartment or from where-ever she had been at OC (why is there so little DNA evidence of her being there?) Maybe to apartment 5J, where the early sniffer dogs alerted to on a number of occasions?

I too found the possibility of Kate falling into a jealous rage over Gerry maybe eye-balling the curvy quiz-mistress and maybe lashing out at Madeleine compelling. But there was, as it happens, a quiz night on the Sunday at the Tapas, so it is possible that tensions were running high even then. 

I think Kate has provided the clues to what happened that week. Madeleine (and the twins at least on one or two nights maybe) was sedated possibly on several occasions. Madeleine woke up and cried. A (paedophile) had been in the room and had disturbed Madeleine. Madeleine tried to tell Kate about waking up and crying. Kate wishes she had listened more carefully to Madeleine to try to establish exactly what had happened to disturb her.

j.rob wrote:

Dont Make Me Laff wrote:On TUESDAY evening KATE MCCANN Stormed off in a huff from the Tappas bar having been humiliated by GM because he gave the quiz master (aka big boobs) more attention than he gave km

 KATE MCCANN
UPON her return "to apt 5A  was confronted by MBM standing in the lounge sobbng. KM  said got to bed and MBM stood bewildered and defiant ...
KM  shouted again "MBM GO BACK TO BED "
MBM Said I want my daddy
KM shoves MBM in the bedroom where MBM cries daddy daddy

Kate thinks to herself your daddy isa womaneyser and when Maddie appears in front of KM
KM hits Maddie

she falls on the floor and
he crying Mrs Fenn hears is KM crying MADDIE not Daddy

GM returns (pisssed up) and sees his beloved daughter dead ...........by his Bleoved wife hand.


what is he going to do


shop her so his carear is over and he loses his ywins ot stick by her and cover her tracks?




imo km KILLED mbm BY ACCIDENT

I just wish they had the guts to come clean .   I would respect them

Certainly possible. 

If the quiz night had happened on Monday night, then the jig-saw would fit together quite well. (Although I would still be questioning what happened on Sunday and Monday as there is a conspicuous absence of detail for the day's activities for those two days. Unlike the other days.) Because I think that by Tuesday, TM were feeling the need to fake photographic 'evidence' that Madeleine was alive and well and in the kids' club  (the tennis ball photo). Which suggests to me that by Tuesday Madeleine was certainly not well, and possibly not alive either.

So what happened prior to Tuesday?

And if it was Madeleine crying that Mrs Fenn heard crying on Tuesday evening why - if something bad had already happened to Madeleine by Tuesday - would the McCanns leave a sick/injured/dying Madeleine to cry out in distress for an hour and a quarter? Even if they were the most despicable parents, surely if some kind of fate had befallen Madeleine by then, the last thing they would want to do would be to draw attention to themselves and Madeleine with an hour and a quarter of anguished crying coming from the apartment?

So maybe it WAS Kate crying out 'Maddie' in distress (and this would explain why Kate was keen to state in her book that Madeleine did not like being called 'Maddie', despite abundant evidence that she was known as Maddie.)

In which case I just wonder if this might have been the day that Madeleine was removed from the apartment or from where-ever she had been at OC (why is there so little DNA evidence of her being there?) Maybe to apartment 5J, where the early sniffer dogs alerted to on a number of occasions?

I too found the possibility of Kate falling into a jealous rage over Gerry maybe eye-balling the curvy quiz-mistress and maybe lashing out at Madeleine compelling. But there was, as it happens, a quiz night on the Sunday at the Tapas, so it is possible that tensions were running high even then. 

I think Kate has provided the clues to what happened that week. Madeleine (and the twins at least on one or two nights maybe) was sedated possibly on several occasions. Madeleine woke up and cried. A (paedophile) had been in the room and had disturbed Madeleine. Madeleine tried to tell Kate about waking up and crying. Kate wishes she had listened more carefully to Madeleine to try to establish exactly what had happened to disturb her.

j-rob "But there was, as it happens, a quiz night on the Sunday at the Tapas, so it is possible that tensions were running high even then."

Is it possible that GM was giving his attention to quiz miss on Sunday and not as we are led to blv on Tuesday than? in which case, did KM storm off on Sunday and the theory that she lashed out at her on maybe Sunday/Monday led to the crying event on Tuesday and was KM (?) which stopped abruptly (maybe when GM came back to 5A) ?
That would explain the lack of DNA.

Kate certainly had a chip on her shoulder about women with big boobs, imo. Remember the whining afterwards when she claimed she would get more public sympathy if she was plumper, more maternal looking and with a bigger bosom?

http://metro.co.uk/2007/10/16/bigger-breasts-would-get-me-more-sympathy-says-maddies-mother-300020/

Scarred by the trigger?

j.rob wrote:

Dont Make Me Laff wrote:On TUESDAY evening KATE MCCANN Stormed off in a huff from the Tappas bar having been humiliated by GM because he gave the quiz master (aka big boobs) more attention than he gave km

 KATE MCCANN
UPON her return "to apt 5A  was confronted by MBM standing in the lounge sobbng. KM  said got to bed and MBM stood bewildered and defiant ...
KM  shouted again "MBM GO BACK TO BED "
MBM Said I want my daddy
KM shoves MBM in the bedroom where MBM cries daddy daddy

Kate thinks to herself your daddy isa womaneyser and when Maddie appears in front of KM
KM hits Maddie

she falls on the floor and
he crying Mrs Fenn hears is KM crying MADDIE not Daddy

GM returns (pisssed up) and sees his beloved daughter dead ...........by his Bleoved wife hand.


what is he going to do


shop her so his carear is over and he loses his ywins ot stick by her and cover her tracks?




imo km KILLED mbm BY ACCIDENT

I just wish they had the guts to come clean .   I would respect them

Certainly possible. 

Yes it is, as far as it goes. But IMO it doesn't even come close to explaining what happened after that: The almost instantaneous involvement of HMG, the formation of the limited company less than a fortnight after she went missing (and why is the company now claiming to do social work BTW), Mitchell giving up a well paid and promising career to do PR for a couple of nobody doctors, the rest of the tapas group agreeing - and maintaining - their pact of silence and all the TM nonsense that we're familiar with on twitter and STM.

I agree, AndyB.

But is it possible

j-rob "But there was, as it happens, a quiz night on the Sunday at the Tapas, so it is possible that tensions were running high even then."

Is it possible that GM was giving his attention to quiz miss on Sunday and not as we are led to blv on Tuesday than? in which case, did KM storm off on Sunday and the theory that she lashed out at her on maybe Sunday/Monday led to the crying event on Tuesday and was KM (?) which stopped abruptly (maybe when GM came back to 5A) ?
That would explain the lack of DNA.

j-rob "But there was, as it happens, a quiz night on the Sunday at the Tapas, so it is possible that tensions were running high even then."

Is it possible that GM was giving his attention to quiz miss on Sunday and not as we are led to blv on Tuesday than? in which case, did KM storm off on Sunday and the theory that she lashed out at her on maybe Sunday/Monday led to the crying event on Tuesday and was KM (?) which stopped abruptly (maybe when GM came back to 5A) ?
That would explain the lack of DNA.
-----------

Yes. I think this is perfectly possible. It is also quite possible that GM took note of quiz miss/ aerobics instructor  at the 'welcome meeting' on Saturday late afternoon/early evening. - right at the beginning of the 'holiday'.  

 There is every indication - if the airport video is to be believed - that his idea of fun was not a week's holiday with his wife and three children under four. So perhaps this livened things up a bit for him?

In Kate's book, Kate writes about going swimming with Madeleine on Saturday afternoon (which may or may not be true.) But what is perhaps a bit odd is that there is no mention of what Gerry and the twins did on Saturday afternoon. Were they watching Kate and Madeleine - in the freezing cold water of the Algarve pool in April? Were they having a nap, having got up early for the flight?

Or what?

So, perhaps a seed was sown on Saturday....Sunday evening there was a major strop........by Tuesday all hell was breaking loose.....

And poor little Madeleine was the victim.

This could be part of the 'jig-saw', but, as others have noted, it does not account for the very high level and early 'protection'.

But what about all the media stuff - Jez Wilkins wandering around with his pram on Thursday evening - very early media involvement.

What is all that about? As I have often postulated (and others too) a pre-planned media 'hoax' that went wrong? A planned 'faked abduction' that backfired. (a la Elizabeth Smart case in the USA - that was a crock of ....)

There are other factors involved probably, like the IVF stuff, Enigma Diagnostics, possibly a drive to micro-chip children, 'amber alert' for missing children in Europe, DNA banks. Generally, just getting people to be paranoid. To take the heat off other crap that was going on - like Iraq.

I think there is also, horribly, a paedo element (possibly relating to an incident where Madeleine woke up - as flagged up by Kate in her book.

Have I missed anything?? 

Oh yes, the ugly, pimple, bundle, monster BOGEY-MAN. 

But he is a bit like the yeti or the Loch Ness Monster, I think.

jrob

sami wrote:

jd wrote:

tigger wrote:So now we have McKenzie, Edmonds and Weinberger, all giving somewhat late support to the McCanns - respectively with cigarette butts, a photograph to prove Madeleine was alive on the 3rd and the suspicious person Mrs. W saw. How very helpful.

I'm also thinking who would the mccanns trust to get the towel and blanket from to use...Whoever it was seemed to have a car too from the tracker dogs trail

If gerry mccann is signing into creche the Naylor daughter then there is more than a good chance he knew the Weinbergers too (after all, they were all there for business), and especially as kate mccann could phone them up 2 years later when they are not in the PJ files

The Gorrods had a car, and Charlotte Gorrods name was on the apartment booking sheet next to apartment C5. We know also they met with at least the Jane Tanner family during the holiday.

Is it known for sure that the Gorrods stayed in apartment C5? Because I thought that this apartment was empty that week and that the only other people in block 5 that week apart from the McCanns and their friends were Mrs Fenn who lived in the apartment above the McCanns and the Molynes family who were staying in the apartment above Mrs Fenn?