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MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by sami on 29.08.12 19:34

@ShuBob wrote:Sami, regardless of the speciality of the dogs the couple asked for, it would mean they had a level of faith in the ability of police dogs. What evidence do they have that a certain speciality of dog is more reliable than another e.g. is there evidence that tracker dogs are better at their job than cadaver dogs? The McCanns' position on this is untenable IMO and I continue to wonder why they went down that road to start with.


I understand and agree with the point you are making. But McCann has already agreed that there was evidence of some description found in the boot of the scenic, given the lengthy explanations he has gone to about dirty nappies, rotten meat etc. This is surely an admission that the dogs were correct in finding material that required testing, therefore it is only the test results he is disputing. To my mind, he has got to be in agreement with the fact that the dogs were brought to that car, they alerted to the boot and the forensic guys subsequently found samples. Dogs job is done. They alerted, material for testing was found, the dogs were 100% right. It is not their job to tell us how, why and who the materials came from. McCann seems to have over looked that.

However, when they sit on chat show sofas doing their pretendy search thing, they make throw away remarks about dogs being unreliable and hope that unsuspecting members of the public will whip out their cheque books and not ask questions.

In my mind Healy's books are nothing more than an attempt to explain away certain important issues that may crop up in the future or to gloss over very specific and important issues, such as the dogs, and hope that they can continue to fool at least some of the people some of the time.

I agree with you, they are foolish to continue to debate this topic and others, but this one in particular. I fear it is the nature of the beast though, Healy and McCann seem to have little regard for for anybody or anything and they continually try to belittle even the Portugese people. Why even go down that road at this stage you could ask, what have they got to gain by almost making fun of Portugal, the people who tried so hard to help them, as McCann appeared to me to do in the recent Swedish interview.

I would put my life's savings on those dogs being right, there is no question about that. What Healy and McCann should have remembered though is the dogs never said it was they who were involved in whatever happened to Madeleine. They made that assumption themselves. Funny that.

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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by ShuBob on 29.08.12 19:42

Totally agree with you here, Sami. The couple have stuck themselves between a rock and a hard place.

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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by aiyoyo on 29.08.12 19:43

@ShuBob wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:She continues to reference Zapata and Jersey home cases because her bewk is aimed at ignorant joe public who hasn't followed up the those cases to know she's talking from her derriere.

She's banking on no one will call her bluff because they don't know any better. Gullible people do take what they read at face value, sadly.

Aiyoyo, but doesn't her book become a legal document in court cases such as the ones against Amaral and Tony? It's one thing relying on the ignorance of the great unwashed but quite another when you're embroiled in legal cases where the dogs evidence is a factor. She really didn't need to include that case in her book over years after he'd confessed.....unless she had to?

The bottom line of kate's bewk is profit and you need to attract the great masses to reach that goal.
She cant possibly not mention the dogs as that's an important element that contributed towards the reasons why they were made arguidos.
Omitting the mention of dogs would make them look dodgy.

Why she referenced those two cases is beyond me too -- maybe to reinforce her own belief, to fool herself thereby giving herself a sense of security albeit false -- despite the later facts to the contrary.
Notice how she includes only selective comments about the dogs (only the bits that fit her agenda),leaving room to manoveure out of a tricky situation if necessary. Playing with fire so to speak. Or maybe she's so confident of her formidable lawyers that she feels the inclusion of those cases wont jeopardy her winning chances b/c she trusts them to make a proper job of earning their exorbitant fees.

Only God knows what runs through a narcissist's mind. Take for example her other ramblings about Maddie been taken by childless couple that doesn't gel with her mental rape of her daughter in page 129 so why the hell she includes that is equally puzzling non?
She wants people to believe Maddie was taken by a sicko also doesn't gel with their belief that "there is no evidence she has come to any harm" which they chant in the public arena all the time.

Either there's a madness to their method of causing confusion, or they're just plain barking mad as frogs because fear overrides their sense of reasoning.


Healy and McCann seem to have little regard for for anybody or anything and they continually try to belittle even the Portugese people. Why even go down that road at this stage you could ask, what have they got to gain by almost making fun of Portugal, the people who tried so hard to help them, as McCann appeared to me to do in the recent Swedish interview.

Sami, spot on. You put it better than me.
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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by PeterMac on 29.08.12 19:52

@aiyoyo wrote:
Either there's a madness to their method of causing confusion, or they're just plain barking mad as frogs because fear overrides their sense of reasoning.
You may be right
Confession is dated 5th February 2008,
Book is dated 2011
Or perhaps their advisors are very, very stupid

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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by jd on 29.08.12 19:55

Healy's books are nothing more than an attempt to explain away certain important issues that may crop up in the future or to gloss over very specific and important issues

I would totally agree with this. Half the reason why there isn't much about Maddie herself in the bewk or the pictures that meant so much like the tennis girl and poolside. I have always suspected that the bewk as well as the gerry mccann blogs were written by someone else. It would explain things like kate mccann saying in TV interviews that she never searched whilst the bewk says she jumped over hedges and ran through hills that night. Things like Maddie wearing a peach smock in the poolside photo when it is pink, it is Amelie who is wearing peach/orange. The gerry mccann blogs always felt like it was written by an American writer
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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by ShuBob on 29.08.12 19:57

Re PeterMac's last post:

Or both and more!

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Conflict of interest

Post by Guest on 29.08.12 20:20

@ShuBob wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@ShuBob wrote:What if the lawyer who tried to prevent Grime's testimony in court resorts to deperate measures and mentions the McCann case during the trial saying Grime and his dogs have been discredited even by British police giving the example of Redwood recently claiming Maddie may still be alive to support the claim? Even if the result will be to try to undermine Grime and cadaver dogs, I can't see the McCanns being happy about being dragged into such a case IF this happens.

If the lawyer knew about mccanns' discrediting the dog tactics, he should also have known they discredited the dogs in Eugene Zapata's case and look what happened? Unless the lawyer is asking for trouble for himself I doubt he would mention the mccanns, but you never know, because even attorney when desperate can commit some silly mistakes as under estimating Prosecutors and Judge's intelligence.

It will be an act of pure desperation. Just take Kate McCann, for example. She continued to reference the Zapata and Jersey home cases long after it had been conclusively proven that the dogs were right in both cases. This, from a woman embroiled in multiple legal cases where the dogs evidence is used in argument. One has to ask why their numerous very expensive legal counsel didn't rein her in. One suspects there is a method to the apparent madness.

Follow the money!

Who is paying the lawyers bills?

If she turns out to have been the guilty party: he walks.
If he did it, she's in the clear.

So: in whose best interests is it for her to go down?

Where I come from, taking separate legal counsel would have been advised to them right from the start.
Not to give this advice would expose the negligent lawyer(s) to the very real risk of disbarment.

So, not telling her to get her own lawyer, while continuing to rake in money from him, or from The Fund (controling interest: who precisely?) will probably derive from the wish to have this very fundamental negligence ab initio to be buried forever. Who'd notice, after she goes down? Who'd have her files, who could defend her, separate her position from his?

Sink or swim together, yes. But the sinking will solely be hers.

Any thoughts on this, anyone?
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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by ShuBob on 29.08.12 20:31

Portia, I'd like to add my thoughts but the truth is I don't quite understand your post

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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by Guest on 29.08.12 20:39

@ShuBob wrote:Portia, I'd like to add my thoughts but the truth is I don't quite understand your post

It's in no one's interest to reign her in.

On the contrary: some very smart alecks have been letting her dig her own grave for some time now, vetting the Bewk with all its obvious inconsistencies, mistakes and lies to go forward and be printed regardless.

His defence will be: she made me do it.

She will have no defense whatsoever.

Their interests are clearly in conflict.
That's why any decent lawyer would have told them to get their own personal legal counsel right away.
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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by aiyoyo on 29.08.12 20:44

@PeterMac wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
Either there's a madness to their method of causing confusion, or they're just plain barking mad as frogs because fear overrides their sense of reasoning.
You may be right
Confession is dated 5th February 2008,
Book is dated 2011
Or perhaps their advisors are very, very stupid

Depending who their advisors were.
If vetted by lawyer (say CR for instance) then it is indeed stupidity to the highest degree
If only by her friends maybe friends were unaware of Zapata confession, while controversy in Jersey Home case means dogs weren't given credence.
Or maybe the arrogant pair went against advice.

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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by ShuBob on 29.08.12 20:44

Thanks Portia.

I get you now and I agree. She's been digging her own grave with plenty of help from Gerry right from the beginning. I doubt if she goes down, he'll be off the hook though. The case has gone too far for that IMO.

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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by sami on 29.08.12 20:46

@jd wrote:
Healy's books are nothing more than an attempt to explain away certain important issues that may crop up in the future or to gloss over very specific and important issues

I would totally agree with this. Half the reason why there isn't much about Maddie herself in the bewk or the pictures that meant so much like the tennis girl and poolside. I have always suspected that the bewk as well as the gerry mccann blogs were written by someone else. It would explain things like kate mccann saying in TV interviews that she never searched whilst the bewk says she jumped over hedges and ran through hills that night. Things like Maddie wearing a peach smock in the poolside photo when it is pink, it is Amelie who is wearing peach/orange. The gerry mccann blogs always felt like it was written by an American writer



I often thought Clarrie had a big input into the book, as a damage limitation exercise. The admission of not searching, turning into jumping over ditches, is a good example. The book is written with hindsight so much of it is how it should of happened, not what did happen.

I think the only reliable information available is from those first tv interviews and their first police statements. After those early days, everything had a motive, everything was done for a reason.

The truth will be found in what they said and did in the immediate days following Madeleines disappearance. Everything else is questionable.

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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by aiyoyo on 29.08.12 21:10

I don't see it that one is playing the other one.
They are in it together, hands holding and crotch feeling during interviews in total synch during interviews.
They're in this so deep, there's no going back to apportioning blame now - too late for that - b/c they appeared relentlessly in public united in peddling their lies for 5 long years. Impossible to excuse away their actions in court.

When the shit hits the ventilator Leveson will wish he can 'climb' into a hole, as the papers he admonished then heavily penalised won't spare him. It will be his turn to beg to be spared from their pens.
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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by ShuBob on 29.08.12 21:25

@aiyoyo wrote:I don't see it that one is playing the other one.
They are in it together, hands holding and crotch feeling during interviews in total synch during interviews.
They're in this so deep, there's no going back to apportioning blame now - too late for that - b/c they appeared relentlessly in public united in peddling their lies for 5 long years. Impossible to excuse away their actions in court.

When the shit hits the ventilator Leveson will wish he can 'climb' into a hole, as the papers he admonished then heavily penalised won't spare him. It will be his turn to beg to be spared from their pens.

Somehow I doubt that very much, Aiyoyo. Apart from perhaps the Express, all the others published articles condemning "ghouls" for tormenting the grieving parents. None of them really comes out of it well and Leveson could argue he was misled.

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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by aiyoyo on 29.08.12 22:10

@ShuBob wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:I don't see it that one is playing the other one.
They are in it together, hands holding and crotch feeling during interviews in total synch during interviews.
They're in this so deep, there's no going back to apportioning blame now - too late for that - b/c they appeared relentlessly in public united in peddling their lies for 5 long years. Impossible to excuse away their actions in court.

When the shit hits the ventilator Leveson will wish he can 'climb' into a hole, as the papers he admonished then heavily penalised won't spare him. It will be his turn to beg to be spared from their pens.

Somehow I doubt that very much, Aiyoyo. Apart from perhaps the Express, all the others published articles condemning "ghouls" for tormenting the grieving parents. None of them really comes out of it well and Leveson could argue he was misled.

Ya, he could well argue that, or anything for that matter in his defence.
However, there's no hiding the apparent obviousness he took a certain biased position with the mccanns right from the outset.
Equally the papers he criticized could argue impartially was not balanced by his pre-disposed stand so it wasn't the press that misled him ; so he has only himself to blame for having been taken in by the lying pairs.

They could argue the pivotal point is that his presumptuousness affects his impartiality and that pretty much defeats the purpose of the Inquiry, and that it was not a blanket case of irresponsible journalism.




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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by ShuBob on 29.08.12 22:18

Assuming the McCanns v Amaral trial goes ahead in a few weeks which I fully expect it to, will the Leveson effect prevent the case from being reported in the UK or will the Sun go against the grain with the blessing of Murdoch like they recently did with the Prince Harry photos?

Interesting times ahead methinks.

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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by jd on 30.08.12 1:16

@ShuBob wrote:Assuming the McCanns v Amaral trial goes ahead in a few weeks which I fully expect it to, will the Leveson effect prevent the case from being reported in the UK or will the Sun go against the grain with the blessing of Murdoch like they recently did with the Prince Harry photos?

Interesting times ahead methinks.

Depends which side you are truly batting for doesn't it ShuBob!
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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by PeterMac on 08.09.12 15:13

Whilst we are on the subject of dogs.

The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to other creatures;
but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creature that cannot.

Mark Twain


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Re: MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead

Post by Guest on 18.09.12 11:12

September 18, 2012 at 1:00 am
Dog expert's testimony key felony murder trial


Detroit man accused of killing missing girl, 2, while babysitting



  • By Christine Ferretti and George Hunter
  • The Detroit News
  • 0 Comments







Detroit — The testimony of a cadaver dog expert may prove key in the felony murder trial of a Detroit man accused of killing his toddler daughter, who remains missing.

Jury selection is slated to begin today in the Wayne County Circuit Court trial of D'Andre Lane, who is charged with felony murder and child abuse in the December disappearance of 2-year-old Bianca Jones.

Meanwhile, the girl's mother stands behind the father of seven and is holding out hope that her daughter is alive.

Lane faces mandatory life in prison if convicted in the case that relies on circumstantial evidence, including a cadaver-detecting FBI dog.

"The dog may be the star of the show in this case," said legal analyst Charlie Langton. "That makes it challenging for both sides."

Last month, attorneys sparred over the admissibility of the testimony of forensic canine expert Martin Grime, whose dog allegedly detected a cadaver scent in Lane's home and car.

The defense argued the relatively new scientific method is "highly prejudicial" and should be excluded.

Circuit Judge Vonda R. Evans ruled it will be admitted.

Lane has claimed Bianca was in the back seat of his 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis the morning of Dec. 2 when he was approached by armed carjackers. But when his car was found shortly after, she was not inside.

Prosecutors contend Lane fatally beat the child during potty training, disposed of her body and fabricated the carjacking.

"Historically there have been cases that have been charged where the victim's body has not been found," Maria Miller, a spokeswoman for Prosecutor Kym L. Worthy, said Monday. "Although the body of infant Bianca Jones has not yet been discovered, we have evidence in this homicide case that we will prove beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury."

Lane's attorney, Terry L. Johnson, countered that his client did "spank" Bianca, but there was no evidence of child abuse or murder since the girl's whereabouts are unknown.

"Mr. Lane is looking forward to getting a trial behind him so that we all can continue to search for his daughter," Johnson said.

Bianca's mother, Banika Jones, said she has "no faith whatsoever in this entire proceeding."

"I'm adamantly championing (Lane's) innocence. I do not believe he was in any way involved with the kidnapping of my daughter. He was a stay-at-home father, he's not a child abuser," Jones said Monday.

"I believe my daughter is alive, and is being held somewhere," Jones said.

The trial is expected to span several weeks and include about 40 witnesses for the prosecution and six for the defense.

cferretti@detnews.com



From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120918/METRO01/209180344#ixzz26oZkJlOP



(My bold)
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