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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Gerry McCanns Credit Cards

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Post by jd 21.09.12 14:22

tigger wrote:
Ross wrote:
aniandr wrote:The dna thing is odd. It would be on towels, glasses, hairbrush, toothbrush, clothes,pillows,playtoy, shoes,underwear,nightdipers(?),chewinggum,bedlinnen,blankets she slept with,toiletpaper(often thrown in a bin in many countries). To get just one hairstraw ore pure dba should be realy simple.

Agreed. If she was there. Surely the only credible explanation for none being there is that she wasn't?

It's one of my early theories.
Supporting this theory are:
Zaival beach at Easter.
The Burgau apartment.
The immediate pointer (on the 8th May photographs in the Belfast Telegraph 'proving' Maddie was in Donegal at Easter) to Donegal. Pointing in the opposite direction - proof of a large extended Irish/Scottish family.
The lack of any photograph that can be said to definitely be of Maddie at OC that week. If those were taken at the same time as the pool photo, it might be 2006 as well, the playground and people in the distance are dressed for really warm weather, Maddie wasn't in her tracksuit and (disappeared) trainers.
The fact that Gerry had been to Portugal several times, that he knew Murat (the PJ have said this too) .
That Kate allegedly once said they went to PdL because they'd been there before.

Additionally:
5a belongs to absolutely not someone of the 'family', it is a coincidence - but it is never taken further, the owner is never interviewed by the news-hungry papers and I don't believe it is mentioned in the book. Ruth McCann is not a relative and she is never asked personally if this is so.
So I'm still ignorant as to how OC lets out 5a if it belongs to someone else?
5a would have had to be used on a previous occasion when the 'accident' happened. But I believe that other people were staying there over Easter. So that is a problem.
Someone else even had the idea that this happened months earlier and that the accident took place around the time the pool photo with Gerry and Madeleine was taken. Amelie being pasted in later to prove a date of May07 instead of say August 06.

It's more likely that they never used 5a except as a 'stage' after Maddie died imo and that Maddie died very early in the holiday, 29th/30th April.
That the Belfast Telegraph article was used both for early fund raising and proving they were all in Donegal instead of Zaival.
That snippets such as the washing machine being 'broken', the inside shutter being broken were to establish occupancy.
Mrs. Fenn saying that she didn't even know 'those people' were there and also that she'd never noticed them (except for the crying incident) supports this.
I think the PJ also tried to find out if cleaning materials had been purchased from the supermarket and elsewhere I've read that the cupboard in OC club containing cleaning materials had been broken into. - Long time ago and no ref for the last I'm afraid.

There are so many coincidences in this case its quite remarkable. Out all the apartments in PDL how strange the one the mccanns stayed in was owned by a mccann who also was from Liverpool! It looks like they stayed in another apartment after 30th April which would be logical, who would want to stay in the same one and explains the lack of DNA in 5A.

The Zaival trip could be a prelude to their business they were doing in PDL. Maybe the bus video was from this trip though this would mean the paynes going there too. One thing that is very clear is the the 3 big financiers all booked at the very same time.... Edmonds, Naylor and Weinburger (33642, 33643,33644). And Sperrey too (33645) but not sure what he does, Carpenter looks to have made their booking a day later in the wifes name. Certainly seems clear they all booked that week for business reasons. Edmunds didn't take the return flight, Naylor didn't use the flights or transfers, Weinburger took a hire car from the airport. And there is the very close relationship the mccanns had with john geraghty (number 4 in the list of top wealthy financial backers the mccanns had)

From MW bookings:

33642 Edmonds 20060880 Not taking return flight
33643 Naylor 20070278 No flights or transfer
33644 Weinburger 20069329 Car hire to resort
33645 Sperrey
33649 Carpenter (Carolyn)




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Post by jd 02.11.13 17:26

Bumping this up for the 'GM and illegal credit card downloads' topic.....This one has a more in-depth look at the credit cards

One thing to note is that gerry mccann had his "old' Queniborough address from 17 months previous in the wallet....not his current Rothley one of 17 months

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Post by tigger 02.11.13 19:53

A strange request and even stranger answer:

A request sent by PJ to British authorities, asking for details about Gerry McCann credit cards transactions for a period of six months, starting on April 1, six weeks before Madeleine's disappearance, was considered disproportionate by Frances Kennah, the Head of UK Central Authority, a Home Office department.
Unquote (from page 2 here)

So from the 1st of April back. It's really a strange request, nothing after 1/4/07. So did Amaral already know something else? After all, they did search the Burgau apartment I believe, there was a Peugeot connected with Murat and the mtDNA of Murat and JT's maternal lines. There's a lot more going on under the surface. Certainly the trip for Easter to Portugal would have shown up.

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Post by sami 02.11.13 20:00

tigger wrote:A strange request and even stranger answer:

A request sent by PJ to British authorities, asking for details about Gerry McCann credit cards transactions for a period of six months, starting on April 1, six weeks before Madeleine's disappearance, was considered disproportionate by Frances Kennah, the Head of UK Central Authority, a Home Office department.
Unquote (from page 2 here)

So from the 1st of April back. It's really a strange request, nothing after 1/4/07. So did Amaral already know something else? After all, they did search the Burgau apartment I believe, there was a Peugeot connected with Murat and the mtDNA of Murat and JT's maternal lines. There's a lot more going on under the surface. Certainly the trip for Easter to Portugal would have shown up.
Tigger, I read that as meaning they want statements from April 07 to sept 07 inclusive ?  So 1st April onwards ?  Perhaps I have finally cracked up huh
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Post by tigger 02.11.13 20:07

The PJ requested details of credit transactions from the Home Office over I believe the year preceding the holiday. It was refused as being too intrusive. (Jaqui Smith I believe). The Home Office requested a renewed request for a shorter period of time. The PJ I believe didn't bother. 

From the summary of the 'Truth of the Lie" (McCannfiles)
74 - The time of the questioning of the McCanns is close and Stuart Prior seems nervous. The PJ also wished to re-question the whole group. Very little info on the McCanns arrives regarding their financial situation. According to UK authorities the McCanns have no credit card or ATM cards. However, the flights had been paid with credit cards so the PJ knew they had them.
unquote.

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Post by sami 02.11.13 20:14

Sorry I'm still not seeing it.  It says six weeks before Madeleine went missing, so starting on 1st April 2007 for a period of 6 months.  dontgetit
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Post by jd 02.11.13 20:28

According to witness statement Ernesto Joaquim Muchacho, he last saw the mccanns with their 3 kids at Zaival Beach during Easter...Easter in 2007 was 6th April to 8th April....Some 3 weeks before the 'official' story of when the mccanns arrived at PDL

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3470-zaival-beach

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Post by Guest 02.11.13 20:36

unawinchester wrote:What interests me about this case is more the question of why it is that, five years later, t ihere is still so much internet activity about it. I honestly cannot understand the motivation of people who devote their lives to it. The number of websites and blogs and uploads on YouTube make it clear that a great number of people spend an inordinate amount of time focussing on the Mccanns. Whatever the truth of the case is, why does it continue to attract this amount of activity? It is clear that no one is being paid to keep the negative theories alive. This is not about the merits or otherwise of the theories themselves. But it is difficult to accept that anyone is truly doing this for Madeleine Mccann. People who genuinely care about the welfare of children don't focus on one child that they never knew. Nor do they devote endless hours of unpaid time to a cause that is really not achieving anything in terms of outcome. This is not the same as people carrying out genuine volunteer or charity work on behalf of a child. If that was the motivation, there are many ways to volunteer for such causes in the real world, where one could truly make a difference in a child's life. Many people who continue to focus on this case, state that they object to the unprecidented amount of attention that Kate and Gerry have generated, when so many missing children receive very little, if any 'coverage'. And yet ,these poeple spend their lives focussing more and more attention on this one child, which contradicts their stated concerns. For if one were truly concerned about the equality of all missing children, one would go out and focus on the other millions of children who do not have Kate and Gerry as parents. Nor does the ongoing vitriol over the Mccann's child care arrangements help Madeleine, or any other missing child. By now, even Goncalo Amaral has admitted that he was wrong about most things, but the objections about the Mccanns still appear to use his theories as real possibilities. Another common cry is that "In 99 percent of child 'disappearances' the parents are involved'. That may be the case, but that statistic comes from parents who are either fighting custody battles, or who wish to hurt the other parent for some reason. The Mccanns do not Whether you loathe or love Kate and Gerry, or feel indifferent towards them, neither of them is stupid. Even 'if' they had accidentally caused Madeleine's death, I believe that both of them would know that whatever the accident was, would pale into insignificance when compared with the possiblity of being caught for covering the actual death of their child. Also, the other adults in the tapas nine, were not all close friends of the Mccanns and it's most unlikely that they would all agree to cover for the couple, when the possibility of being caught would land them in jail. Those that were doctors, would also forever lose their medical licenses. "If" they were covering the sedation of their children, they would have realised that inventing a story about the reasons for this ,would be far less dangerous than doing what they have been accused of. Also, it is actually very difficult for an adult to deliberately kill themselves with sedatives. Deaths come via the mix of sedatives with other drugs, and/or a large amount of alcohol, where it is the lethal COMBINATION that causes death. Kate Mccann is a qualified anaethetist. Of all medical specialists, these are the ones that understand MOST about lethal combinations, and consultant cardiologists would also be very high on the chart of that kind of knowledge. It is therefore almost impossible for them to have 'accidentally' killed Madeleine. It would have to have been deliberate, and that theory is ludicruos. Most of all, it is abundantly clear that the overwhelming, so called 'evidence' for the Mccanns involvement came from leaks within the Portuguese Police, and then media to the British media, most of whom have since admitted that they had no reliable 'source'. It is a fact that the Portuguese police already knew that the DNA evidence from the lab in Britain did not prove a thing. They lied to Gerry Mccann by telling him that there was solid DNA evidence to implicate him and his wife. They did that because they believed he was guilty, and I don't question their motive. They knew that if Gerry Mccann was guilty he would very likely confess once he heard about the DNA. And that is TRUE. If Gerry Mccann was guilty he no doubt WOULD have confessed if conclusive DNA evidence had been found. Even hardened murderes with serious criminal records confess as soon as the police mention that DNA has convicted them. It is one scientific form of proof that is almost impossible to deny. Yet Gerry Mccann's response was that he could not explain it. Because, he genuinely could not explain it. If he were guilty, he would know that 'explaining' it would no doubt halve whatever sentence he was about to get! Okay, so there is no solid evidence that an abductor took Madeleine, but regardless of what anyone thinks, there is no more evidence to implicate the Mccanns. If there were, they would have been charged and gone to court. One thing we ALL know, is that little girls do not simply disappear into thin air. But, if the theory of an abductor seems impossible, it is far less impossibler than the theory that, in a very short space of time, the Mccanns disposed of their daughter's body and some time later, drove it to Spain and dumped it in the sea. The theories against the Mccanns are far less logical than those against them.  It seems that people will go to any length of fantasy to implicate them, including the notion that they have influence over parliament, forensic scientists and who knows what else? This is ridiculous. There is absolutely NOTHING in the Mccanns past to indicate this. They were doctors working for the National Health. They were not even in private practice where they would make infinitely more money. Okay, so they are more comfortably off than most people, but they are not serioulsy wealthy at all, They do not have the kind of money, connections, or backgrounds that would make them 'influential'. Something their critics seem to forget is that both Kate and Gerry are from working class families. They did not grow up 'connected' to the elite at all. Nor is there anything to suggest that they longed to be celebrities. There is just nothing logical about the suspicion of the Mccanns at all. It seems far more logical that the internet has brought a LOT of lonely and lost poeple together into some kind of cyber community where they can focus on the Mccanns, instead of facing their empty lives. People- THIS is just another ADDICTION of yours. You really do NOT care about truth and justice, because, if you did there would be a lot more productive ways to fight for it. And NO- I am not a Mccann 'supporter'. I barely focussed on this case at all, but I was baffled when I realised what was going on in cyberspace. I don't have a great deal of attachment to the Mccanns innocence or guilt. I don't believe they are guilty, but even if I did, I could NEVER waste my life obsessing about them like this! AND - I would know that I "could" be wrong. And even if I was 99 percent sure I was right, that one percent knowledge that I could be wrong, would prevent me from doing what you people do. No one - other than the person or people who were there- can say with one hundred percent accuracy, what really happened. Andd therefore, you must accept that you could be wrong. And IF you are wrong, that makes you guilty of a very serious kind of abuse against your fellow human beings. It means that you just ADD to the intense suffering of two parents. It means that you add to the future suffering of their twins, who will one day read some of this vitriol. You risk them being bullied at school over it when they are teenagers. You risk adding to the possibilty that 'if' Madeleine is still alive, your actions might contribute to her not being found. I think you all really need to question your motives. Also, how are you going to feel about your OWN lives, in ten, twenty, thirty years, when you are STILL trying to escape whatever emptiness is inside you, by living vocariously through the lives of Kate and Gerry Mccann?
There are no negative theories

So no one is keeping negative theories alive

There are only objective, verifiable theories

These are being developed, at a great cost to all of us involved here

And, make no mistake, we will find out what happened and who did it
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Post by Miss Trunchbull 02.11.13 20:50

unawinchester, I don't think it boils down to 'pro-McCann/anti-McCann' at all, or deluded people devoting their lives to something (as you put it). It's more to do with seeking the truth, sifting the statements, looking for inconsistencies, spotting the contradictions and developing a watertight theory as to what happened that week. We all agree that we seek justice for Madeleine, so as long as no-one is libelled or slandered, long may the good work continue.
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Post by comperedna 03.11.13 14:41

Portia. You should learn to paragraph if you wish people on this site to take you seriously. You do your ideas no serice by assuming people on who post on here are obsessives, or by speculating about thei lives. It merely makes you seem to be sour and ill-informed.
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Post by Guest 03.11.13 14:58

Comperedna5: if I'm looking at the right post, Portia was quoting the long departed unawinchester who made one post before returning to her cave. They weren't her own comments.

I certainly agree that anything without paragraphs is a nightmare to read.
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Post by PeterMac 07.12.14 10:45

Nice one from FB

"I am sure I read that the wallet was returned, i.e posted to his previous address by the thief and then forwarded to his current address,
where it was picked up en route to Portugal by friends from Holland, who then caught another plane to Portugal.
Didn't the wallet contain everything, apart from the sterling, including the driving licence and 30 euros in cash?
Was it not on this flight to Gatwick that GM says he assisted a man having a heart attack on the plane?
Then he must have caught the train from Gatwick to Victoria (it doesn't go to Waterloo)...then caught the tube, with one change at Westminster, to Waterloo.
This tale is hard to get the head around ! "
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Post by aiyoyo 07.12.14 14:02

"I am sure I read that the wallet was returned, i.e posted to his previous address by the thief and then forwarded to his current address,
where it was picked up en route to Portugal by friends from Holland, who then caught another plane to Portugal.

Nothing in the above info adds up.

It's very odd that he'd document in his wallet showing his old address when he'd been in Rothley for a good few years by 2007.
It's very rare that a thief would be arsed to return wallet by post.
It's also very odd that the new occupier in his old address would have GM new address in order to forward it.
Also, nobody has heard about his Dutch friends being in Rothley at the time, that by pure luck of coincidence they were able to pick it up and taken it to Portugal for GM.

This tall tale about his stolen wallet and him messing-about on the London Tube at rush hour is very far fetched.

Must have been a very stupid thief who lifted the £ (and photos) and not lift the euros, if report is to be believed.

It is one of the most ambiguous pieces of crap reporting I've ever come across.
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Post by PeterMac 07.12.14 14:04

They are beyond help.
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Post by Rufus T 08.12.14 21:54

sami wrote:
tigger wrote:A strange request and even stranger answer:

A request sent by PJ to British authorities, asking for details about Gerry McCann credit cards transactions for a period of six months, starting on April 1, six weeks before Madeleine's disappearance, was considered disproportionate by Frances Kennah, the Head of UK Central Authority, a Home Office department.
Unquote (from page 2 here)

So from the 1st of April back. It's really a strange request, nothing after 1/4/07. So did Amaral already know something else? After all, they did search the Burgau apartment I believe, there was a Peugeot connected with Murat and the mtDNA of Murat and JT's maternal lines. There's a lot more going on under the surface. Certainly the trip for Easter to Portugal would have shown up.
Tigger, I read that as meaning they want statements from April 07 to sept 07 inclusive ?  So 1st April onwards ?  Perhaps I have finally cracked up huh
The  request was for info on 2 mastercards for the six months period 1/04/07 - 30/09/07 as can be seen at the following link
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR2/cr2_123.jpg
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Post by aiyoyo 08.12.14 22:58

A request sent by PJ to British authorities, asking for details about Gerry McCann credit cards transactions for a period of six months, starting on April 1, six weeks before Madeleine's disappearance, was considered disproportionate by Frances Kennah, the Head of UK Central Authority, a Home Office department.
Unquote (from page 2 here)

Reading that I dont get the sense it was a downright refusal per se to supply, just that the  6-months period inclusive was regarded as "disproportionate", as in too lengthy and therefore not a reasonable period to request for.

I dont understand why the PJ did not write back and ask her to supply those that she deems not "disproportionate".  In other words, leave it to her discretion to supply whatever she can, covering whatever period she regards as proportionate.  

Is it just me, or do people interpret it differently?
If she can not meet the request due to possible breach of law on infringement of confidentiality why not just say so? Or, why not say it is "inappropriate" for home office to oblige the request. Why use the word "disproportionate"?
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Post by Angelique 10.12.14 1:43

aiyoyo

"I dont understand why the PJ did not write back and ask her to supply those that she deems not "disproportionate".  In other words, leave it to her discretion to supply whatever she can, covering whatever period she regards as proportionate.  

Is it just me, or do people interpret it differently?
If she can not meet the request due to possible breach of law on infringement of confidentiality why not just say so? Or, why not say it is "inappropriate" for home office to oblige the request. Why use the word "disproportionate"?"

IMO Politicians and the like always like to state reasons for refusal in a way that shows they "care and/or consider the rights of the individual" when refusing something requested that they don't want to give/allow. It means if you protest you are the one who shows inconsideration and your character is tarnished as opposed to the "caring" Politician/Goverment official etc.

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Post by aiyoyo 10.12.14 8:10

Angelique wrote:
IMO Politicians and the like always like to state reasons for refusal in a way that shows they "care and/or consider the rights of the individual" when refusing something requested that they don't want to give/allow. It means if you protest you are the one who shows inconsideration and your character is tarnished as opposed to the "caring" Politician/Goverment official etc.
Yes, you are right - there is that, a superficial front to keep, pretending they care.


But this is a behind closed door request, one that they can oblige and the public would not be any wiser, therefore they can't face criticism for something not out in the open.
The issue of appearing to look nice and caring ie being "good guys" in the public eyes should not have been a factor because at that time they weren't to know the files were going to be released. 

That's why their refusal to comply with such a simple request is such an enigma to me.
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Post by ultimaThule 17.12.14 0:14

PeterMac wrote:Nice one from FB

"I am sure I read that the wallet was returned, i.e posted to his previous address by the thief and then forwarded to his current address,
where it was picked up en route to Portugal by friends from Holland, who then caught another plane to Portugal.
Didn't the wallet contain everything, apart from the sterling, including the driving licence and 30 euros in cash?
Was it not on this flight to Gatwick that GM says he assisted a man having a heart attack on the plane?
Then he must have caught the train from Gatwick to Victoria (it doesn't go to Waterloo)...then caught the tube, with one change at Westminster, to Waterloo.
This tale is hard to get the head around ! "


To get to Waterloo from Gatwick is merely a matter of changing trains at Clapham Junction but, as Gerry's intended destination was allegedly the Foreign Office in King Charles Street, it would have been far simpler and quicker for him to have stayed on the train until it reached Victoria and taken a cab or bus to Whitehall rather than engage in such a convuluted journey.

Fwiw Waterloo Station would, of course, be the likely onward destination of choice for anyone arriving at Gatwick mid-morning who was due to appear at the High Court later that day in respect of, say, an application to ward their eldest daughter.
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Post by ryanm 19.09.15 17:27

I thought I 'd share this link here as it raises some interesting thoughts regarding Gerry's trip home on 19th June in relation to the stolen wallet in relation to timing. 

It makes sense that a wallet dropped into a postbox will make it's way back to the owner's residence and perhaps even then the wallet made it's way to Rothley and not Queenieborough but to have the wallet returned to him in PDL a mere 10 days later seems almost too efficient to be believable. 

The other aspect that I never thought about in the past is how time consuming a missing wallet can be, reporting to police, cancelling the cards (which can only be done by the card holder), having to go to the bank to get cash etc. Was the stolen wallet story a cover used to explain a delay or absence that couldn't be explained in another way? 

http://fytton.blogspot.ie/2015/09/gerrys-trip-to-uk-19-20th-june-2007.html
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