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The Holiday

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The Holiday

Post by One on 04.08.12 10:46

David Payne organized the holiday, the suggestion came up around Christmas 2006 or New Years 2007 and according to everyone there were several months of discussion before the holiday was booked.

According to David:

1. MW offered a 10% discount but this was only advertised after the party had booked their holiday
2. Portugal was the only remaining available destination
3. Some of the party were taking independent flights and not those offered by Mark Warner
4. There was no listening service available
5. The apartments were all spread out, there was no guarantee the group would be near each other
6. There was no full board option, lunch wasn’t on offer

I can only imagine the logistical nightmare involved in organizing a holiday for 17 people with 8 young children under such circumstances. But 6 of the 9 adults had been on a Mark Warner holiday before and they enjoyed the best of what MW offers, the crèche and sporting facilities.
The 10% discount was first on offer on the MW website somewhere between 19/12/2006 and 24/12/2006. The actual offer was either a child travels free where two adults book or a 10% discount for adults with teenagers or no children. The offer was originally for bookings made on or before 28/02/07 but it was extended into early March.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070306001456/http://www.markwarner.co.uk/last_minute_holidays/last_minute_summer

So as they were all bringing young children, Diane was the only one of the 9 adults who could have availed of the 10% discount. And if the discount was applied after their booking as David says, they would have needed to book the holiday around 19th December 2006.
The offer was extended to bookings made before 05/03/07, in order to have missed the discount this means they’d have booked after this date. Late bookings are no doubt common and I’m sure MW would have taken their various issues into account. So why does David insist they only found out about the discount after they’d booked?

The website was very clear in the destinations available for the offer. It listed Mediterranean, Portuguese and Egyptian resorts from 22nd April to 12th July 2007 excluding the Easter break. This is in stark contrast to Dave’s assertions that Portugal was the only available destination for that week.
If there was no listening service available, no guarantee they’d be together as a group and no full board option then why did they still continue with Portugal as a destination? The Mediterranean/Egyptian resorts would have offered everything they wanted combined with warmer weather. And why does David insist that Portugal was the only available destination?

The Paynes had been on MW holidays in the past yet had never used the baby listening service before. The other couples don’t mention they availed of the service in the past either. It’s not listed as a service on the website. In the brochure for 2007 it states that either a listening or drop in service is available and to check the resort to see what’s available. So what David says is misleading, the information was available before they made their booking.

So when did they make the booking and why did they choose imperfect Portugal as a destination?


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Re: The Holiday

Post by Nina on 04.08.12 11:02

@One wrote:David Payne organized the holiday, the suggestion came up around Christmas 2006 or New Years 2007 and according to everyone there were several months of discussion before the holiday was booked.

According to David:

1. MW offered a 10% discount but this was only advertised after the party had booked their holiday
2. Portugal was the only remaining available destination
3. Some of the party were taking independent flights and not those offered by Mark Warner
4. There was no listening service available
5. The apartments were all spread out, there was no guarantee the group would be near each other
6. There was no full board option, lunch wasn’t on offer

I can only imagine the logistical nightmare involved in organizing a holiday for 17 people with 8 young children under such circumstances. But 6 of the 9 adults had been on a Mark Warner holiday before and they enjoyed the best of what MW offers, the crèche and sporting facilities.
The 10% discount was first on offer on the MW website somewhere between 19/12/2006 and 24/12/2006. The actual offer was either a child travels free where two adults book or a 10% discount for adults with teenagers or no children. The offer was originally for bookings made on or before 28/02/07 but it was extended into early March.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070306001456/http://www.markwarner.co.uk/last_minute_holidays/last_minute_summer

So as they were all bringing young children, Diane was the only one of the 9 adults who could have availed of the 10% discount. And if the discount was applied after their booking as David says, they would have needed to book the holiday around 19th December 2006.
The offer was extended to bookings made before 05/03/07, in order to have missed the discount this means they’d have booked after this date. Late bookings are no doubt common and I’m sure MW would have taken their various issues into account. So why does David insist they only found out about the discount after they’d booked?

The website was very clear in the destinations available for the offer. It listed Mediterranean, Portuguese and Egyptian resorts from 22nd April to 12th July 2007 excluding the Easter break. This is in stark contrast to Dave’s assertions that Portugal was the only available destination for that week.
If there was no listening service available, no guarantee they’d be together as a group and no full board option then why did they still continue with Portugal as a destination? The Mediterranean/Egyptian resorts would have offered everything they wanted combined with warmer weather. And why does David insist that Portugal was the only available destination?

The Paynes had been on MW holidays in the past yet had never used the baby listening service before. The other couples don’t mention they availed of the service in the past either. It’s not listed as a service on the website. In the brochure for 2007 it states that either a listening or drop in service is available and to check the resort to see what’s available. So what David says is misleading, the information was available before they made their booking.

So when did they make the booking and why did they choose imperfect Portugal as a destination?



Thank you One for this post. So it seems that despite everything it had to be Portugal, what is/was so special about PdL? In fact it seems to me to be a lot of expense for just one week in a not perfect destination.

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Re: The Holiday

Post by tigger on 04.08.12 21:25

quote: ' So it seems that despite everything it had to be Portugal, what is/was so special about PdL? unquote (from above)

Murat?

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Re: The Holiday

Post by Nina on 04.08.12 22:39

@tigger wrote:quote: ' So it seems that despite everything it had to be Portugal, what is/was so special about PdL? unquote (from above)

Murat?

thinking Hmmm.

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Re: The Holiday

Post by One on 04.08.12 22:41

@tigger wrote: Murat?

I'm not so sure. The RM/JT connection seemed to be Exeter, they only moved down there in Jan 2007. It sounds (despite the puzzle) like Portugal was already chosen. According to FP it was DP who chose it.

I'm surprised by the slipups in DP's statement. He's so careful about most of what he says. Yet from what I can see both his and FP's statements seem to contain the most hesitations and stalling tactics.
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Re: The Holiday

Post by Nina on 04.08.12 22:45

Just had a thought. Back in Rothley the twins were in Nursery was it 1 1/2 days a week, and Madeleine was it 3 days, need to check unless anyone has the info at their finger tips. Yet this week they were bunged into Creche for a full day and for the whole week, was that supposedto be a holiday treat? Poor little loves, no sarnies on the beach for them, just off loaded for the day and left to their own devices each evening.

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Re: The Holiday

Post by Mariita on 04.08.12 23:14

Well, it was our holiday too. Quoting Kate McCann. The word our means Gerry and herself, so it seems. Holiday according to Kate is relaxing with other adult friends, not spending time with the children. Maybe the other destinations had not equally generous crecheofferings...?
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Re: The Holiday

Post by pauline on 04.08.12 23:23

@Nina wrote:Just had a thought. Back in Rothley the twins were in Nursery was it 1 1/2 days a week, and Madeleine was it 3 days, need to check unless anyone has the info at their finger tips. Yet this week they were bunged into Creche for a full day and for the whole week, was that supposedto be a holiday treat? Poor little loves, no sarnies on the beach for them, just off loaded for the day and left to their own devices each evening.

Weren't they better in the creche with other small children and the nannies than with their parents who found them an inconvenience?
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Re: The Holiday

Post by tuom on 05.08.12 0:58

@pauline wrote:
@Nina wrote:Just had a thought. Back in Rothley the twins were in Nursery was it 1 1/2 days a week, and Madeleine was it 3 days, need to check unless anyone has the info at their finger tips. Yet this week they were bunged into Creche for a full day and for the whole week, was that supposedto be a holiday treat? Poor little loves, no sarnies on the beach for them, just off loaded for the day and left to their own devices each evening.

Weren't they better in the creche with other small children and the nannies than with their parents who found them an inconvenience?



Yes unfortunately they probably were , IMO
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Re: The Holiday

Post by tigger on 05.08.12 7:23

@One wrote:
@tigger wrote: Murat?

I'm not so sure. The RM/JT connection seemed to be Exeter, they only moved down there in Jan 2007. It sounds (despite the puzzle) like Portugal was already chosen. According to FP it was DP who chose it.

I'm surprised by the slipups in DP's statement. He's so careful about most of what he says. Yet from what I can see both his and FP's statements seem to contain the most hesitations and stalling tactics.

According to Kate, Gerry had been to Portugal before - I believe it was PdL or that area. I even believe they were there some six or seven months previously with Maddie, or perhaps even only Gerry and Maddie. That is the only way I can explain the pool photo where imo we have very hot weather, the blooming climber in the background Maddie at about 3 and a bit but Amelie shopped in aged 2 +.
'Friends of friends' who arranged new mobiles shortly after 3/5 lived in PdL. Then there is the Burgau connection. If the blue eyeshadow and icecream photos were taken on or near the property belonging to Murat - I would think it was on the occasion of that first visit.

So I totally agree with you, Portugal was chosen over other more attractive and suitable destinations.


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Re: The Holiday

Post by Tony Bennett on 05.08.12 7:34

@tigger wrote:
@One wrote:
@tigger wrote: Murat?

I'm not so sure. The RM/JT connection seemed to be Exeter, they only moved down there in Jan 2007. It sounds (despite the puzzle) like Portugal was already chosen. According to FP it was DP who chose it.

I'm surprised by the slipups in DP's statement. He's so careful about most of what he says. Yet from what I can see both his and FP's statements seem to contain the most hesitations and stalling tactics.

According to Kate, Gerry had been to Portugal before - I believe it was PdL or that area. I even believe they were there some six or seven months previously with Maddie, or perhaps even only Gerry and Maddie. That is the only way I can explain the pool photo where imo we have very hot weather, the blooming climber in the background Maddie at about 3 and a bit but Amelie shopped in aged 2 +.
'Friends of friends' who arranged new mobiles shortly after 3/5 lived in PdL. Then there is the Burgau connection. If the blue eyeshadow and icecream photos were taken on or near the property belonging to Murat - I would think it was on the occasion of that first visit.

So I totally agree with you, Portugal was chosen over other more attractive and suitable destinations.
Not forgetting, of course, that...

* Dr Gerald McCann was unwilling to comment on whether he knew Robert Murat or not...

* Martin Smith from Donegal (says he saw man carrying child) knew Robert Murat so well that he could say, in his first statement to police, that whoever he saw was NOT Robert Murat...

* And that by an amazing coincidence, the man who became the McCanns' 'Co-ordinating Lawyer' and Director of the Find Madeleine Fund, Freemason Edward Smethurst, had been holidaying in PdL every year since 1999.

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Re: The Holiday

Post by tigger on 05.08.12 7:36

Then there was the helpful Geraghty?

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Re: The Holiday

Post by Tony Bennett on 05.08.12 7:40

@tigger wrote:Then there was the helpful Geraghty?
And the Hubbards from Canada who flew over at a moment's notice

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Re: The Holiday

Post by tigger on 05.08.12 7:43

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@tigger wrote:Then there was the helpful Geraghty?
And the Hubbards from Canada who flew over at a moment's notice
Bless me! pray2 I'd forgotten this roving priest!


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Re: The Holiday

Post by One on 05.08.12 9:09

@tigger wrote: According to Kate, Gerry had been to Portugal before - I believe it was PdL or that area. I even believe they were there some six or seven months previously with Maddie, or perhaps even only Gerry and Maddie. That is the only way I can explain the pool photo where imo we have very hot weather, the blooming climber in the background Maddie at about 3 and a bit but Amelie shopped in aged 2 +.
'Friends of friends' who arranged new mobiles shortly after 3/5 lived in PdL. Then there is the Burgau connection. If the blue eyeshadow and icecream photos were taken on or near the property belonging to Murat - I would think it was on the occasion of that first visit.

So I totally agree with you, Portugal was chosen over other more attractive and suitable destinations.

If DP is right then the discussions would have have happened Oct to Dec 2006 and the booking made around 19th Dec 2006. I know I need to read the Last Photo thread but does anyone know the name of that climber in the last photo?

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Re: The Holiday

Post by Tony Bennett on 05.08.12 9:19

@One wrote:
@tigger wrote: According to Kate, Gerry had been to Portugal before - I believe it was PdL or that area. I even believe they were there some six or seven months previously with Maddie, or perhaps even only Gerry and Maddie. That is the only way I can explain the pool photo where imo we have very hot weather, the blooming climber in the background Maddie at about 3 and a bit but Amelie shopped in aged 2 +.
'Friends of friends' who arranged new mobiles shortly after 3/5 lived in PdL. Then there is the Burgau connection. If the blue eyeshadow and icecream photos were taken on or near the property belonging to Murat - I would think it was on the occasion of that first visit.

So I totally agree with you, Portugal was chosen over other more attractive and suitable destinations.

If DP is right then the discussions would have have happened Oct to Dec 2006 and the booking made around 19th Dec 2006. I know I need to read the Last Photo thread but does anyone know the name of that climber in the last photo?

Do you mean with the red flowers? I think that's a bougainvillea, usually coloured red or purple, very vivid colours, seen all over the Mediterranean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bougainvillea

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Re: The Holiday

Post by Nina on 05.08.12 10:11

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@One wrote:
@tigger wrote: According to Kate, Gerry had been to Portugal before - I believe it was PdL or that area. I even believe they were there some six or seven months previously with Maddie, or perhaps even only Gerry and Maddie. That is the only way I can explain the pool photo where imo we have very hot weather, the blooming climber in the background Maddie at about 3 and a bit but Amelie shopped in aged 2 +.
'Friends of friends' who arranged new mobiles shortly after 3/5 lived in PdL. Then there is the Burgau connection. If the blue eyeshadow and icecream photos were taken on or near the property belonging to Murat - I would think it was on the occasion of that first visit.

So I totally agree with you, Portugal was chosen over other more attractive and suitable destinations.

If DP is right then the discussions would have have happened Oct to Dec 2006 and the booking made around 19th Dec 2006. I know I need to read the Last Photo thread but does anyone know the name of that climber in the last photo?

Do you mean with the red flowers? I think that's a bougainvillea, usually coloured red or purple, very vivid colours, seen all over the Mediterranean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bougainvillea

And starts to flower after any rains have stopped and the ground dries out. Imo as a bouganvillea owner, many types, many coloured, that photograph wasn't taken early May, too much flower.

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Re: The Holiday

Post by One on 05.08.12 12:23

@Nina wrote: And starts to flower after any rains have stopped and the ground dries out. Imo as a bouganvillea owner, many types, many coloured, that photograph wasn't taken early May, too much flower.

Thanks, Nina, there's a lot of conflicting information on google. From reading the rogs the weather seemed a bit too cold for this photo in early May. I wonder if the orange shrub is a bouganvillea too?
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Re: The Holiday

Post by Nina on 05.08.12 13:02

@One wrote:
@Nina wrote: And starts to flower after any rains have stopped and the ground dries out. Imo as a bouganvillea owner, many types, many coloured, that photograph wasn't taken early May, too much flower.

Thanks, Nina, there's a lot of conflicting information on google. From reading the rogs the weather seemed a bit too cold for this photo in early May. I wonder if the orange shrub is a bouganvillea too?

Hi there, I can only speak from experience about these plants. I have many, some cultivated and some the more wild rampant ones and they only flower once the rains have stopped. The heat then builds and the ground becomes very dry quite quickly, then they start to flower. I have never in my 13 years here in Spain had one flowering as early as end April/early May. And the picture isn't just a few early brachts they are established clusters. I don't live on the coast though so that may have some bearing.
The other plant you mention could be an Hibiscus, I cannot enlarge to be sure.

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Re: The Holiday

Post by Tony Bennett on 05.08.12 13:18

@Nina wrote:
@One wrote:
@Nina wrote: And starts to flower after any rains have stopped and the ground dries out. Imo as a bouganvillea owner, many types, many coloured, that photograph wasn't taken early May, too much flower.

Thanks, Nina, there's a lot of conflicting information on google. From reading the rogs the weather seemed a bit too cold for this photo in early May. I wonder if the orange shrub is a bouganvillea too?

Hi there, I can only speak from experience about these plants. I have many, some cultivated and some the more wild rampant ones and they only flower once the rains have stopped. The heat then builds and the ground becomes very dry quite quickly, then they start to flower. I have never in my 13 years here in Spain had one flowering as early as end April/early May. And the picture isn't just a few early brachts they are established clusters. I don't live on the coast though so that may have some bearing.
The other plant you mention could be an Hibiscus, I cannot enlarge to be sure.
That could turn out to be a very pertinent observation, Nina. And I know you have 'local knowledge'. I have been fortunate enough for the past two winters to have had short holidays in the Canary Islands. On both occasions the bougainvilleas have been out in splendid full bloom. But then the Canaries are very near the tropics, and the climatic conditions are very different from Spain and Portugal - warm more or less all the year round.

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Re: The Holiday

Post by russiandoll on 05.08.12 13:31

I am very glad this issue re the holiday destination has resurface , I posted about it a while back and discussion never took off. I read extensively about MW resorts and it was clear to me that there was a choice of Greece where weather would be better for the adults' outdoor pursuits but not too hot for the children in early May. It was a lie that Portugal was the only country MW could offer for a holiday, maybe it was the case that the size of the group limited choices for reasons of accommodation, but DP did not say that, so what he said was ambiguous.

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Re: The Holiday

Post by One on 05.08.12 14:19

@russiandoll wrote: I am very glad this issue re the holiday destination has resurface , I posted about it a while back and discussion never took off. I read extensively about MW resorts and it was clear to me that there was a choice of Greece where weather would be better for the adults' outdoor pursuits but not too hot for the children in early May. It was a lie that Portugal was the only country MW could offer for a holiday, maybe it was the case that the size of the group limited choices for reasons of accommodation, but DP did not say that, so what he said was ambiguous.

Exactly RD. Through his statements he's clear and concise in what he saw/didn't see and what he remembers/doesn't remember. Yet he insists Portugal was the only resort on offer and a discount was applied after the booking was made. It'd have been plausible instead if he'd simply stated they'd booked late, missed alternative resorts and the discount. I suppose I'm thinking DP is doing the best but something's getting in the way.

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Re: The Holiday

Post by Nina on 05.08.12 15:04

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@One wrote:
@Nina wrote: And starts to flower after any rains have stopped and the ground dries out. Imo as a bouganvillea owner, many types, many coloured, that photograph wasn't taken early May, too much flower.

Thanks, Nina, there's a lot of conflicting information on google. From reading the rogs the weather seemed a bit too cold for this photo in early May. I wonder if the orange shrub is a bouganvillea too?

Hi there, I can only speak from experience about these plants. I have many, some cultivated and some the more wild rampant ones and they only flower once the rains have stopped. The heat then builds and the ground becomes very dry quite quickly, then they start to flower. I have never in my 13 years here in Spain had one flowering as early as end April/early May. And the picture isn't just a few early brachts they are established clusters. I don't live on the coast though so that may have some bearing.
The other plant you mention could be an Hibiscus, I cannot enlarge to be sure.
That could turn out to be a very pertinent observation, Nina. And I know you have 'local knowledge'. I have been fortunate enough for the past two winters to have had short holidays in the Canary Islands. On both occasions the bougainvilleas have been out in splendid full bloom. But then the Canaries are very near the tropics, and the climatic conditions are very different from Spain and Portugal - warm more or less all the year round.
Good afternoon Tony. We have had it in bloom even up to January, it is once the rains start and the ground becomes wet when the flower brachts fall off, or gales, that knocks them for six.
The trigger is rain followed by no rain that encourages flowering.

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Re: The Holiday

Post by Woof on 07.08.12 19:52

Diane Webster was a real trooper. She agreed to go on holidays with David and Fiona and kids and then discovered they'd be joined by 6 more with another 6 children. She played tennis while it wasn't her thing, made lunch for the lot and even obliged by sleeping on the couch so she wouldn't disturb Lily who was almost 3 yet still in a cot. I'm sure she worried lots about the Payne children who mightn't have been heard on the monitor with all of the commotion at dinner. She didn't get much relief even then with all the faffing around checking and listening and the same endless joke about relieving people etc.

I think Jane gave Diane a bit of bad press regarding her wine consumption. She had no children to mind and nobody to answer to. I think she earned it and tbh if I was in her place might have been sipping it out of a bottle with a straw.

You have to think if ever anyone landed on their feet in a crisis it had to be the Paynes and perhaps all of them. Wasn't she exactly what the doctor(s) ordered?
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Re: The Holiday

Post by tigger on 07.08.12 20:16

Tweet:

Strange that Webster and Payne were silent for between 75 and 90 hours, and then happened to switch on their mobiles at 1930, 2000 on 3/5.

I'm beginning to think that after the slip up of the six seats by DW, she might be a darker horse than we thought?

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Retired murder DCI Colin Sutton: "I would also like to make the point that Operation Grange was so restricted from the start as to be destined to fail."

Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley made public on national TV that Operation Grange is a complete fraud.

Ex-DCI Andy Redwood had a "revelation moment" on BBC's Crimewatch on 14th October 2013 when he announced that Operation Grange had eliminated the Tanner sighting - which opened up the 'window of opportunity', in accordance with their remit, to allow the fake abduction to happen.

Despite "irrelevant behaviour" from blood and cadaver dogs in the McCann's apartment, on Kate McCann's clothes, and in the car they hired three weeks after Maddie disappeared, Ex-Chief Inspector, Ian Horrocks, said: "The thought that Kate and Gerry McCann had anything to do with the death of their daughter is frankly preposterous."

Gerry McCann called for example to be made of 'trolls'. SKY News reporter Martin Brunt doorstepped Brenda Leyland on 2 October 2014. She was then found dead in a Leicester hotel room. Brenda paid the price. She paid with her life.

Ex-Deputy Chief Constable, Jim Gamble QPM, congratulated SKY reporter, Martin Brunt, on twitter for doorstepping Brenda Leyland on behalf of Gerry McCann.

Prime Minister Theresa May introduces Prime Suspect Kate McCann to Royalty: The Duchess of Gloucester.

Good Cop Down: The reality of being a police whistleblower
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