The Holiday

David Payne organized the holiday, the suggestion came up around Christmas 2006 or New Years 2007 and according to everyone there were several months of discussion before the holiday was booked.

According to David:

1. MW offered a 10% discount but this was only advertised after the party had booked their holiday
2. Portugal was the only remaining available destination
3. Some of the party were taking independent flights and not those offered by Mark Warner
4. There was no listening service available
5. The apartments were all spread out, there was no guarantee the group would be near each other
6. There was no full board option, lunch wasn’t on offer

I can only imagine the logistical nightmare involved in organizing a holiday for 17 people with 8 young children under such circumstances. But 6 of the 9 adults had been on a Mark Warner holiday before and they enjoyed the best of what MW offers, the crèche and sporting facilities.
The 10% discount was first on offer on the MW website somewhere between 19/12/2006 and 24/12/2006. The actual offer was either a child travels free where two adults book or a 10% discount for adults with teenagers or no children. The offer was originally for bookings made on or before 28/02/07 but it was extended into early March.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So as they were all bringing young children, Diane was the only one of the 9 adults who could have availed of the 10% discount. And if the discount was applied after their booking as David says, they would have needed to book the holiday around 19th December 2006.
The offer was extended to bookings made before 05/03/07, in order to have missed the discount this means they’d have booked after this date. Late bookings are no doubt common and I’m sure MW would have taken their various issues into account. So why does David insist they only found out about the discount after they’d booked?

The website was very clear in the destinations available for the offer. It listed Mediterranean, Portuguese and Egyptian resorts from 22nd April to 12th July 2007 excluding the Easter break. This is in stark contrast to Dave’s assertions that Portugal was the only available destination for that week.
If there was no listening service available, no guarantee they’d be together as a group and no full board option then why did they still continue with Portugal as a destination? The Mediterranean/Egyptian resorts would have offered everything they wanted combined with warmer weather. And why does David insist that Portugal was the only available destination?

The Paynes had been on MW holidays in the past yet had never used the baby listening service before. The other couples don’t mention they availed of the service in the past either. It’s not listed as a service on the website. In the brochure for 2007 it states that either a listening or drop in service is available and to check the resort to see what’s available. So what David says is misleading, the information was available before they made their booking.

So when did they make the booking and why did they choose imperfect Portugal as a destination?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

One wrote:David Payne organized the holiday, the suggestion came up around Christmas 2006 or New Years 2007 and according to everyone there were several months of discussion before the holiday was booked.

According to David:

1. MW offered a 10% discount but this was only advertised after the party had booked their holiday
2. Portugal was the only remaining available destination
3. Some of the party were taking independent flights and not those offered by Mark Warner
4. There was no listening service available
5. The apartments were all spread out, there was no guarantee the group would be near each other
6. There was no full board option, lunch wasn’t on offer

I can only imagine the logistical nightmare involved in organizing a holiday for 17 people with 8 young children under such circumstances. But 6 of the 9 adults had been on a Mark Warner holiday before and they enjoyed the best of what MW offers, the crèche and sporting facilities.
The 10% discount was first on offer on the MW website somewhere between 19/12/2006 and 24/12/2006. The actual offer was either a child travels free where two adults book or a 10% discount for adults with teenagers or no children. The offer was originally for bookings made on or before 28/02/07 but it was extended into early March.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So as they were all bringing young children, Diane was the only one of the 9 adults who could have availed of the 10% discount. And if the discount was applied after their booking as David says, they would have needed to book the holiday around 19th December 2006.
The offer was extended to bookings made before 05/03/07, in order to have missed the discount this means they’d have booked after this date. Late bookings are no doubt common and I’m sure MW would have taken their various issues into account. So why does David insist they only found out about the discount after they’d booked?

The website was very clear in the destinations available for the offer. It listed Mediterranean, Portuguese and Egyptian resorts from 22nd April to 12th July 2007 excluding the Easter break. This is in stark contrast to Dave’s assertions that Portugal was the only available destination for that week.
If there was no listening service available, no guarantee they’d be together as a group and no full board option then why did they still continue with Portugal as a destination? The Mediterranean/Egyptian resorts would have offered everything they wanted combined with warmer weather. And why does David insist that Portugal was the only available destination?

The Paynes had been on MW holidays in the past yet had never used the baby listening service before. The other couples don’t mention they availed of the service in the past either. It’s not listed as a service on the website. In the brochure for 2007 it states that either a listening or drop in service is available and to check the resort to see what’s available. So what David says is misleading, the information was available before they made their booking.

So when did they make the booking and why did they choose imperfect Portugal as a destination?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thank you One for this post. So it seems that despite everything it had to be Portugal, what is/was so special about PdL? In fact it seems to me to be a lot of expense for just one week in a not perfect destination.

quote: ' So it seems that despite everything it had to be Portugal, what is/was so special about PdL? unquote (from above)

Murat?

tigger wrote:quote: ' So it seems that despite everything it had to be Portugal, what is/was so special about PdL? unquote (from above)

Murat?

Hmmm.

tigger wrote: Murat?

I'm not so sure. The RM/JT connection seemed to be Exeter, they only moved down there in Jan 2007. It sounds (despite the puzzle) like Portugal was already chosen. According to FP it was DP who chose it.

I'm surprised by the slipups in DP's statement. He's so careful about most of what he says. Yet from what I can see both his and FP's statements seem to contain the most hesitations and stalling tactics.

Just had a thought. Back in Rothley the twins were in Nursery was it 1 1/2 days a week, and Madeleine was it 3 days, need to check unless anyone has the info at their finger tips. Yet this week they were bunged into Creche for a full day and for the whole week, was that supposedto be a holiday treat? Poor little loves, no sarnies on the beach for them, just off loaded for the day and left to their own devices each evening.

Nina wrote:Just had a thought. Back in Rothley the twins were in Nursery was it 1 1/2 days a week, and Madeleine was it 3 days, need to check unless anyone has the info at their finger tips. Yet this week they were bunged into Creche for a full day and for the whole week, was that supposedto be a holiday treat? Poor little loves, no sarnies on the beach for them, just off loaded for the day and left to their own devices each evening.

Weren't they better in the creche with other small children and the nannies than with their parents who found them an inconvenience?

pauline wrote:

Nina wrote:Just had a thought. Back in Rothley the twins were in Nursery was it 1 1/2 days a week, and Madeleine was it 3 days, need to check unless anyone has the info at their finger tips. Yet this week they were bunged into Creche for a full day and for the whole week, was that supposedto be a holiday treat? Poor little loves, no sarnies on the beach for them, just off loaded for the day and left to their own devices each evening.

Weren't they better in the creche with other small children and the nannies than with their parents who found them an inconvenience?

Yes unfortunately they probably were , IMO

One wrote:

tigger wrote: Murat?

I'm not so sure. The RM/JT connection seemed to be Exeter, they only moved down there in Jan 2007. It sounds (despite the puzzle) like Portugal was already chosen. According to FP it was DP who chose it.

I'm surprised by the slipups in DP's statement. He's so careful about most of what he says. Yet from what I can see both his and FP's statements seem to contain the most hesitations and stalling tactics.

According to Kate, Gerry had been to Portugal before - I believe it was PdL or that area. I even believe they were there some six or seven months previously with Maddie, or perhaps even only Gerry and Maddie. That is the only way I can explain the pool photo where imo we have very hot weather, the blooming climber in the background Maddie at about 3 and a bit but Amelie shopped in aged 2 +.
'Friends of friends' who arranged new mobiles shortly after 3/5 lived in PdL. Then there is the Burgau connection. If the blue eyeshadow and icecream photos were taken on or near the property belonging to Murat - I would think it was on the occasion of that first visit.

So I totally agree with you, Portugal was chosen over other more attractive and suitable destinations.

tigger wrote:

One wrote:

tigger wrote: Murat?

I'm not so sure. The RM/JT connection seemed to be Exeter, they only moved down there in Jan 2007. It sounds (despite the puzzle) like Portugal was already chosen. According to FP it was DP who chose it.

I'm surprised by the slipups in DP's statement. He's so careful about most of what he says. Yet from what I can see both his and FP's statements seem to contain the most hesitations and stalling tactics.

According to Kate, Gerry had been to Portugal before - I believe it was PdL or that area. I even believe they were there some six or seven months previously with Maddie, or perhaps even only Gerry and Maddie. That is the only way I can explain the pool photo where imo we have very hot weather, the blooming climber in the background Maddie at about 3 and a bit but Amelie shopped in aged 2 +.
'Friends of friends' who arranged new mobiles shortly after 3/5 lived in PdL. Then there is the Burgau connection. If the blue eyeshadow and icecream photos were taken on or near the property belonging to Murat - I would think it was on the occasion of that first visit.

So I totally agree with you, Portugal was chosen over other more attractive and suitable destinations.

Not forgetting, of course, that...

* Dr Gerald McCann was unwilling to comment on whether he knew Robert Murat or not...

* Martin Smith from Donegal (says he saw man carrying child) knew Robert Murat so well that he could say, in his first statement to police, that whoever he saw was NOT Robert Murat...

* And that by an amazing coincidence, the man who became the McCanns' 'Co-ordinating Lawyer' and Director of the Find Madeleine Fund, Freemason Edward Smethurst, had been holidaying in PdL every year since 1999.

Then there was the helpful Geraghty?

tigger wrote:Then there was the helpful Geraghty?

And the Hubbards from Canada who flew over at a moment's notice

Tony Bennett wrote:

tigger wrote:Then there was the helpful Geraghty?

And the Hubbards from Canada who flew over at a moment's notice

Bless me! I'd forgotten this roving priest!

tigger wrote: According to Kate, Gerry had been to Portugal before - I believe it was PdL or that area. I even believe they were there some six or seven months previously with Maddie, or perhaps even only Gerry and Maddie. That is the only way I can explain the pool photo where imo we have very hot weather, the blooming climber in the background Maddie at about 3 and a bit but Amelie shopped in aged 2 +.
'Friends of friends' who arranged new mobiles shortly after 3/5 lived in PdL. Then there is the Burgau connection. If the blue eyeshadow and icecream photos were taken on or near the property belonging to Murat - I would think it was on the occasion of that first visit.

So I totally agree with you, Portugal was chosen over other more attractive and suitable destinations.

If DP is right then the discussions would have have happened Oct to Dec 2006 and the booking made around 19th Dec 2006. I know I need to read the Last Photo thread but does anyone know the name of that climber in the last photo?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

One wrote:

tigger wrote: According to Kate, Gerry had been to Portugal before - I believe it was PdL or that area. I even believe they were there some six or seven months previously with Maddie, or perhaps even only Gerry and Maddie. That is the only way I can explain the pool photo where imo we have very hot weather, the blooming climber in the background Maddie at about 3 and a bit but Amelie shopped in aged 2 +.
'Friends of friends' who arranged new mobiles shortly after 3/5 lived in PdL. Then there is the Burgau connection. If the blue eyeshadow and icecream photos were taken on or near the property belonging to Murat - I would think it was on the occasion of that first visit.

So I totally agree with you, Portugal was chosen over other more attractive and suitable destinations.

If DP is right then the discussions would have have happened Oct to Dec 2006 and the booking made around 19th Dec 2006. I know I need to read the Last Photo thread but does anyone know the name of that climber in the last photo?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Do you mean with the red flowers? I think that's a bougainvillea, usually coloured red or purple, very vivid colours, seen all over the Mediterranean:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Tony Bennett wrote:

One wrote:

tigger wrote: According to Kate, Gerry had been to Portugal before - I believe it was PdL or that area. I even believe they were there some six or seven months previously with Maddie, or perhaps even only Gerry and Maddie. That is the only way I can explain the pool photo where imo we have very hot weather, the blooming climber in the background Maddie at about 3 and a bit but Amelie shopped in aged 2 +.
'Friends of friends' who arranged new mobiles shortly after 3/5 lived in PdL. Then there is the Burgau connection. If the blue eyeshadow and icecream photos were taken on or near the property belonging to Murat - I would think it was on the occasion of that first visit.

So I totally agree with you, Portugal was chosen over other more attractive and suitable destinations.

If DP is right then the discussions would have have happened Oct to Dec 2006 and the booking made around 19th Dec 2006. I know I need to read the Last Photo thread but does anyone know the name of that climber in the last photo?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Do you mean with the red flowers? I think that's a bougainvillea, usually coloured red or purple, very vivid colours, seen all over the Mediterranean:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And starts to flower after any rains have stopped and the ground dries out. Imo as a bouganvillea owner, many types, many coloured, that photograph wasn't taken early May, too much flower.

Nina wrote: And starts to flower after any rains have stopped and the ground dries out. Imo as a bouganvillea owner, many types, many coloured, that photograph wasn't taken early May, too much flower.

Thanks, Nina, there's a lot of conflicting information on google. From reading the rogs the weather seemed a bit too cold for this photo in early May. I wonder if the orange shrub is a bouganvillea too?

One wrote:

Nina wrote: And starts to flower after any rains have stopped and the ground dries out. Imo as a bouganvillea owner, many types, many coloured, that photograph wasn't taken early May, too much flower.

Thanks, Nina, there's a lot of conflicting information on google. From reading the rogs the weather seemed a bit too cold for this photo in early May. I wonder if the orange shrub is a bouganvillea too?

Hi there, I can only speak from experience about these plants. I have many, some cultivated and some the more wild rampant ones and they only flower once the rains have stopped. The heat then builds and the ground becomes very dry quite quickly, then they start to flower. I have never in my 13 years here in Spain had one flowering as early as end April/early May. And the picture isn't just a few early brachts they are established clusters. I don't live on the coast though so that may have some bearing.
The other plant you mention could be an Hibiscus, I cannot enlarge to be sure.

Nina wrote:

One wrote:

Nina wrote: And starts to flower after any rains have stopped and the ground dries out. Imo as a bouganvillea owner, many types, many coloured, that photograph wasn't taken early May, too much flower.

Thanks, Nina, there's a lot of conflicting information on google. From reading the rogs the weather seemed a bit too cold for this photo in early May. I wonder if the orange shrub is a bouganvillea too?

Hi there, I can only speak from experience about these plants. I have many, some cultivated and some the more wild rampant ones and they only flower once the rains have stopped. The heat then builds and the ground becomes very dry quite quickly, then they start to flower. I have never in my 13 years here in Spain had one flowering as early as end April/early May. And the picture isn't just a few early brachts they are established clusters. I don't live on the coast though so that may have some bearing.
The other plant you mention could be an Hibiscus, I cannot enlarge to be sure.

That could turn out to be a very pertinent observation, Nina. And I know you have 'local knowledge'. I have been fortunate enough for the past two winters to have had short holidays in the Canary Islands. On both occasions the bougainvilleas have been out in splendid full bloom. But then the Canaries are very near the tropics, and the climatic conditions are very different from Spain and Portugal - warm more or less all the year round.

I am very glad this issue re the holiday destination has resurface , I posted about it a while back and discussion never took off. I read extensively about MW resorts and it was clear to me that there was a choice of Greece where weather would be better for the adults' outdoor pursuits but not too hot for the children in early May. It was a lie that Portugal was the only country MW could offer for a holiday, maybe it was the case that the size of the group limited choices for reasons of accommodation, but DP did not say that, so what he said was ambiguous.

russiandoll wrote: I am very glad this issue re the holiday destination has resurface , I posted about it a while back and discussion never took off. I read extensively about MW resorts and it was clear to me that there was a choice of Greece where weather would be better for the adults' outdoor pursuits but not too hot for the children in early May. It was a lie that Portugal was the only country MW could offer for a holiday, maybe it was the case that the size of the group limited choices for reasons of accommodation, but DP did not say that, so what he said was ambiguous.

Exactly RD. Through his statements he's clear and concise in what he saw/didn't see and what he remembers/doesn't remember. Yet he insists Portugal was the only resort on offer and a discount was applied after the booking was made. It'd have been plausible instead if he'd simply stated they'd booked late, missed alternative resorts and the discount. I suppose I'm thinking DP is doing the best but something's getting in the way.

Tony Bennett wrote:

Nina wrote:

One wrote:

Nina wrote: And starts to flower after any rains have stopped and the ground dries out. Imo as a bouganvillea owner, many types, many coloured, that photograph wasn't taken early May, too much flower.

Thanks, Nina, there's a lot of conflicting information on google. From reading the rogs the weather seemed a bit too cold for this photo in early May. I wonder if the orange shrub is a bouganvillea too?

Hi there, I can only speak from experience about these plants. I have many, some cultivated and some the more wild rampant ones and they only flower once the rains have stopped. The heat then builds and the ground becomes very dry quite quickly, then they start to flower. I have never in my 13 years here in Spain had one flowering as early as end April/early May. And the picture isn't just a few early brachts they are established clusters. I don't live on the coast though so that may have some bearing.
The other plant you mention could be an Hibiscus, I cannot enlarge to be sure.

That could turn out to be a very pertinent observation, Nina. And I know you have 'local knowledge'. I have been fortunate enough for the past two winters to have had short holidays in the Canary Islands. On both occasions the bougainvilleas have been out in splendid full bloom. But then the Canaries are very near the tropics, and the climatic conditions are very different from Spain and Portugal - warm more or less all the year round.

Good afternoon Tony. We have had it in bloom even up to January, it is once the rains start and the ground becomes wet when the flower brachts fall off, or gales, that knocks them for six.
The trigger is rain followed by no rain that encourages flowering.

Diane Webster was a real trooper. She agreed to go on holidays with David and Fiona and kids and then discovered they'd be joined by 6 more with another 6 children. She played tennis while it wasn't her thing, made lunch for the lot and even obliged by sleeping on the couch so she wouldn't disturb Lily who was almost 3 yet still in a cot. I'm sure she worried lots about the Payne children who mightn't have been heard on the monitor with all of the commotion at dinner. She didn't get much relief even then with all the faffing around checking and listening and the same endless joke about relieving people etc.

I think Jane gave Diane a bit of bad press regarding her wine consumption. She had no children to mind and nobody to answer to. I think she earned it and tbh if I was in her place might have been sipping it out of a bottle with a straw.

You have to think if ever anyone landed on their feet in a crisis it had to be the Paynes and perhaps all of them. Wasn't she exactly what the doctor(s) ordered?

Tweet:

Strange that Webster and Payne were silent for between 75 and 90 hours, and then happened to switch on their mobiles at 1930, 2000 on 3/5.

I'm beginning to think that after the slip up of the six seats by DW, she might be a darker horse than we thought?

tigger wrote:According to Kate, Gerry had been to Portugal before - I believe it was PdL or that area...

From Dr Kate McCann's 'madeleine', page 42 [hardback version]:

"It was on New Year's Day 2007 that the idea of a spring holiday in Portugal was first raised. Fiona and David Payne, who had come with their children Lily and Scarlet to spend the day with us, were planning a week's break at a Mark Warner resort in the Algarve, probably with two other couples and their families, and they asked us if we'd like to join them. We'd been away with Fiona and David on several occasions and we'd always enjoyed ourselves...

"The other couples pencilled in for this trip were Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner and Matt and Rachael Oldield...

"I'd never been to Portugal, although Gerry had been there on a couple of golfing trips a few years before..."

So: twice before. For golf. No destination stated.

Indeed, a couple = a minimum of two [but could be more]. And there's quite some golf course about in the Algarve, be they existing or newly constructed ...

Châtelaine wrote:Indeed, a couple = a minimum of two [but could be more]. And there's quite some golf course about in the Algarve, be they existing or newly constructed ...

No less than four near PdL I understand, yet strangely, golf isn't mentioned by the McCanns in connection with the holiday. Never. There were no golf bags no tennis bags, indeed, no golfing partners. Which is a shame, because after 3/5 golfing partners were everywhere.
Would be really interesting to know who was partnering Gerry on his previous golfing trips. It is also strange that during their four month stay Gerry played no golf at all, I don't believe that the presence of journalists would have been a problem, they were well under control by then.
I believe that in November a meeting with Murat was also at a golf club? Or am I wrong here Tony?

I also seem to remember that Gerry had his golf clubs and bag stolen from his car in Rothley some time before the holiday. Damn unlucky that man!

tigger wrote:I believe that in November a meeting with Murat was also at a golf club? Or am I wrong here Tony?

No, I don't think that's correct.

Let's just go over the November Murat meeting:

This was in the house of Ralph and Sally Eveleigh, Murat's aunt and uncle. It was on 13 November 2007. Also present were:

* Robert Murat's mother

* Robert Murat

* Robert Murat's lawyer, Francisco Pagarete

* Brian Kennedy

* Brian Kennedy's in-house lawyer at his Latium Group, Senior Freemason and holidaymaker in P:raia da Luz every year since 1999, Edward Smethurst.

Earlier that day, Brian Kennedy had attended another meeting, at Portimao Police Station, with two or three Police Officers, and flanked by:

Francisco Marco, boss of the shady Metodo 3 Spanish detective agency, who boasted a month later that his men 'knew where Madeleine was', were 'closing in on her kidnappers', and that 'Madelemne would be home by Christmas', and

Antonio Giminez Raso, Metodo 3's 'top' detective', who was assigned to be the main Metodo 3 private detective working on the Madeleine McCann case, and who was involved in the promotion of numerous 'sightings' of and newspaper stories about Madeleine. He has since been exposed as a corrupt former senior police officer who has been in prison since being remanded in custody in February 2009, charged with aiding and abetting the theft of £25 million of cocaine from a boat in Barcelona harbour, and being a key member of a 27-strong vicious criminal gang (see elsewhere on this forum).

The only meeting I am aware of that Murat had with anyone was on the afternoon of 3 May 2007.

Here once again [extracted from my long article re Murat] is the list of 17 lies that Murat originally told police when pulled in for questioning on 14 May 2007. He dramatically changed his story (after being confronted with mobile 'phone evidence that proved he had lied) when re-interviewed on 10 and 11 July 2007:

SECTION I. A summary of Murat’s 17 changes of story about what he did on 1, 2, 3 and 4 May


You may by now have lost count of the number of changes in Robert Murat’s story about what he was doing between 1 and 4 May, so here’s a convenient summary of his new account of events, and how these contradicted his earlier account of events:

1. Remembers that on 1 May he tried to contact Jorge da Silva.

2. Remembers that on 2 May he didn’t leave home at 10.30am but instead had a meeting with Sergei Malinka at the Batista Supermarket.

3. He had in fact taken Michaela and Malinka back to his mother’s house in Praia da Luz for a further discussion, something he’d omitted to tell the police in the first interview.

4. He now remembered visiting his bank and paying in 287.51 euros.

5. He now remembered he’d called at the home of Francisco Pagarete, his lawyer, that morning.

6. He now remembers that he had met Francisco Pagarete that afternoon.

7. He now remembers that another of Jorge’s sons was present at their meeting in the café in the afternoon.

8. The meeting in the café went on much longer than he had said previously.

9. He thinks that Michaela Walczuk’s husband Luis Antonio may not have been present at Michaela’s house that evening, contrary to what he had previously said.

10. On 3 May, he had not woken at 9.00am as previously stated, but at 8.00am.

11. He had not driven to Michaela’s house that morning after 10.00am as previously stated; instead he had left home at 8.45am for a 9.30am meeting with the owner of the business tourist complex called ‘Gold Bunker’ in the Espiche district and her father-in-law.

12. He now remembered that he and Michaela had visited two apartments for about 30 minutes, probably on the afternoon of 3 May.

13. He and Michaela had lunch with the owner of the ‘Gold Bunker’ complex and her father-in-law, a fact he had not disclosed to police before.

14. Michaela’s daughter C______ was not with them that day, contrary to his previous story.

15. They went to the Palmares Golf Club in the afternoon, another fact Murat had failed to disclose.

16. He now admitted to making two telephone calls, to Sergei Malinka and Michaela, at 11.39pm and 11.40pm that night.

17. He previously said he had woken at 9.00am on Friday 4 May. He now admitted he had telephoned Michaela at 8.27am and must have got up earlier.

Dr Gerald McCann says he was playing tennis most of that afternoon.

If you're going on holiday with 3 children under the age of 4, you know the resort is spread out, you've checked it out online why wouldn't you bring a buggy? You get a decent baggage allowance for each child and their clothes could probably be packed into one or two suitcases so a buggy is no extra cost. And when the family were being flown out by Mark Warner I'm sure the first question would have been what they might need to bring out, surely someone in the group would have told them to bring a buggy at some point. Very very strange that.