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Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

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Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by bristow on 19.07.12 14:47

I have purposely written 'pub' in my heading so as not to give this thread too much credence as the following was said to me in a pub/restaurant yesterday. Have been in two minds whether to post this as it sounds like it could be a load of tosh.

After re-reading the Burgau thread a couple of days ago I have been thinking about the Murat/Tanner dna issue and while having a meal yesterday was discussing it with a couple of friends.
On the next table were a couple of chaps (one who claimed he was ex cid) who were obviously listening to our conversation, one of them then said that it was 'quite well known' that Tanner and Murat were related!!
I tried to push him on the subject, he did seem to know his stuff to a degree, knew about the dna etc and seemed to have a lot of knowledge on PDL but wouldn't elaborate on where he got his opinion from.
He didn't appear to have been drinking and left not too long after the comment,. so feel rather baffled to say the least.

Has anyone else heard of this snippet before now?

ETA this is not my opinion (at the moment anyway!)
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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by Waxwing on 19.07.12 17:13

Interesting.
I have access to Ancestry and know my way around it easily. When I have time I will do a bit of digging. Does anyone know where Murat was born please?

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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by Guest on 19.07.12 17:20

Very bizarre and intriguing. Waxwing, according to the Madeleine Foundation website, Robert James Queriol Eveleigh Murat (there certainly can't be many of those around) was born at Queen Charlotte's Hospital in London on 20th November 1973.
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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by Lady-Heather on 19.07.12 17:23

I was hoping you would respond waxwing

Robert Murat was born Robert James Queriol Eveleigh Murat, at Queen Charlotte’s Hospital in London, on 20 November 1973.

His mother is Jennifer Ann Murat, nee Eveleigh. Born in 1936.

Father was John Henry Queriol Murat, was born on 24 January 1924 and died in Westminster, London, in 1986.
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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by Waxwing on 19.07.12 17:35

Brilliant, thank you for this. I love a challenge and will do my best with the little time I have available at the moment.
Thank you again

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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by Waxwing on 19.07.12 19:40

My searching is going well regarding the Murat family but if anyone else with Ancestry access (or similar) would like to search also, we could compare notes at a later stage to make sure we are on the right track.
To save me time, please can anyone quickly lay their hands on a few starting details about Jane Tanner?
Many thanks

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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by justme3 on 19.07.12 19:47

A little bit more info, for the record. Jennifer A Eveleigh was born in Devon/Cornwall. She married John H Q Murat in 1967. The marriage took place in Surrey. As someone has already posted, Robert Murat was born in London. Jenny's mother's maiden name was Jones.

I'm never sure what to post on here, because I think to myself, it's all been posted before.

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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by Waxwing on 19.07.12 19:51

@justme3 wrote:A little bit more info, for the record. Jennifer A Eveleigh was born in Devon/Cornwall. She married John H Q Murat in 1967. The marriage took place in Surrey. As someone has already posted, Robert Murat was born in London. Jenny's mother's maiden name was Jones.

I'm never sure what to post on here, because I think to myself, it's all been posted before.

Thank you, Jenny's mother's name was Madeleine Jones (just discovered that) :)

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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by Guest on 19.07.12 20:33

Waxwing, the Tapas friends are a little harder to pin down. All I can find out for Jane Michelle Tanner is that her date of birth is 16th April 1971 but I don't know where she was born. As far as I know she lives in the Exeter area now.
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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by bristow on 19.07.12 20:43

Very good idea Waxwing, I belong to ancestry too and have been having a delve, I will pm you later.

Jane Tanner was born in Leicester and her mothers maiden name was Genders.

Devon seems to be the common link at the moment but could be just a wild goose chase, we shall see.
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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by uppatoffee on 19.07.12 20:53

There is lots of information about the Murat family as they are one of the old Port companies and their heritage seems interlinked with that of the Symingtons. However I cannot find any connection to the Tanners. Although Tanner is fairly common her mother's maiden name is not, so it is relatively easy to get back a few generations on the maternal line.

Think also about how close you would actually be to people that are not immediate family. Most people keep in touch with cousins, but few beyond that.
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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by monkey mind on 19.07.12 21:03

[quote="bristow"]Jane Tanner was born in Leicester and her mothers maiden name was Genders.[quote]

I'm begining to feel like I'm in some bizarre episode of that old black and white series The Twilight Zone. In this particular episode, when I leave home, no matter the time of day, no matter which direction I travel, whether on foot, bicycle, car, motorbike, train, hovercraft, boat, airplane or good old ufo complete with alien grey pilot, no matter how many people I meet up with on the journey, we always without fail end up in Leicester....
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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by bristow on 19.07.12 21:05

A bit controversial I know but a friend of mine who is with me this evening has been discussing the JT/RM thing with me (they know hardly anything of this case) and has said it seems totally obvious to them that JT and RM knew each other 'very well' before PDL, and had been in PDL together either before or during the holiday, hence the dna in Bergau. possibly had a fall out and in desperation, because perhaps a partner was getting wind of them, she decided to try and frame RM in Madeleines disappearance (Woman scorned etc}

It's interesting to hear opinions from people who are fresh to the case.

Admin please remove my post if need be.

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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by bristow on 19.07.12 21:09

[quote="monkey mind"][quote="bristow"]Jane Tanner was born in Leicester and her mothers maiden name was Genders.


I'm begining to feel like I'm in some bizarre episode of that old black and white series The Twilight Zone. In this particular episode, when I leave home, no matter the time of day, no matter which direction I travel, whether on foot, bicycle, car, motorbike, train, hovercraft, boat, airplane or good old ufo complete with alien grey pilot, no matter how many people I meet up with on the journey, we always without fail end up in Leicester....

Yes I agree MonkeyMind!

When I saw Leicester on the birth entry, I muttered 'of course' to myself!
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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by Guest on 19.07.12 21:21

I tried looking at this before and could not find a relevant birth record. Three Marion/Marian Genders can be found but one was born in 1925 ( too old?),one in 1953 and one in 1956 ( both too young for a 1968 marriage to Jane Tanner`s father).

Would be interested if anyone can get to the bottom of this one!
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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by uppatoffee on 19.07.12 21:51

Nope, you're quite right Alison. Just realised that error myself. I have a second marriage for Jane's mother and children from that marriage, but still no connection!
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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by justme3 on 19.07.12 22:10

Alison, is Jane's mum married to someone called Vann?

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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by bristow on 19.07.12 22:19

@alison wrote:I tried looking at this before and could not find a relevant birth record. Three Marion/Marian Genders can be found but one was born in 1925 ( too old?),one in 1953 and one in 1956 ( both too young for a 1968 marriage to Jane Tanner`s father).

Would be interested if anyone can get to the bottom of this one!

This is a frustrating one I agree.

The 1925 one could be a possiblity as that would mean a late marriage and giving birth to JT at the age of 46, quite old but not impossible but I agree doubtful unless it was a second marriage, but from the records it doesn't seem like it.

The 1953 one seems a more likely age as 18 is reasonably common to give birth but it makes her only 15 at the time of marriage, so that seems to rule it out (not entirely sure though)

I have got a birth announcement from an English paper (possibly The London Gazette) for an English couple from the military for a female Genders born in 1945 in Dalhousie, India, father C.H Genders, mother Jean Genders, nee Neilson. Unfortunately no Christian name.

Are we certain that JTs father was named Graham?

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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by Guest on 19.07.12 22:24

I`ve just used Genes Reunited and there is an entry for Marion Genders owned by someone called Marion Vann. That is Jane Tanner`s mother`s name after her second marriage.

She gives her year and place of birth ( as Marion Genders of course) as 1947 and Liverpool. I`ve yet to find a likely birth record but the year seems more in keeping with a marriage in 1968, the birth of Jane in 1971 and two subsequent children.

Jane`s father first name is Graham L Tanner.
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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by justme3 on 19.07.12 22:29

Marion Genders married a Stephen P Vann in 1978. She married under her married name of Tanner. It looks as if she gave birth to twins soon after. These are the only children I can find for this marriage. Stephan Vann was born in 1946

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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by bristow on 19.07.12 22:33

@alison wrote:I`ve just used Genes Reunited and there is an entry for Marion Genders owned by someone called Marion Vann. That is Jane Tanner`s mother`s name after her second marriage.

She gives her year and place of birth ( as Marion Genders of course) as 1947 and Liverpool. I`ve yet to find a likely birth record but the year seems more in keeping with a marriage in 1968, the birth of Jane in 1971 and two subsequent children.

Jane`s father first name is Graham L Tanner.

Ah yes that sounds more like it. Possibly they were adopted which is often the case when there doesn't seem to be any records. A friend of mine couldn't find his known name on ancestry but after finding out about his birth mother, there it was in black and white.

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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by Guest on 19.07.12 23:07

I think you might be right re the adoption point, Bristow.

I will have to reread the information on Tanner/Murat and Burgau but my understanding was that hairs were found which were shown to be of the same " halotype" and this is not unusual apparently. I have seen something in the PJ final report which indicates that whilst the respective hairs fell into the same group, this should not suggest that the two individuals were actually there- it could have been hair from a large number of people.

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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by Waxwing on 19.07.12 23:18

I'm not a fully paid up member of Genes Reunited but if any forum members are they should be able to view Marion Vann's tree. Her first husband
(J.T.'s father) Graham L Tanner born 1943 appears to have 2, or possibly 3 siblings (although I think 2). Their mothers maiden name was Smith. They are David W Tanner born 1944, Gillian H. Tanner born 1945 and perhaps Beverley M. Tanner born 1949. The first 3 were born during the war which makes me think that the father was probably in a reserved occupation.
I shan't go back any further but will try to take it sideways so to speak, and see where it takes me.
Goodnight all.

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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by bristow on 19.07.12 23:52

@alison wrote: I think you might be right re the adoption point, Bristow.

I will have to reread the information on Tanner/Murat and Burgau but my understanding was that hairs were found which were shown to be of the same " halotype" and this is not unusual apparently. I have seen something in the PJ final report which indicates that whilst the respective hairs fell into the same group, this should not suggest that the two individuals were actually there- it could have been hair from a large number of people.

I'm trying to get my head round it too.

The dna seems to be discredited but then a contradictory report says otherwise
This piece from Stewie (wonder where he has gone?) is very interesting regarding the halotypes, , the parts in bold print at the end are, I think, very significant.

Stewie wrote:Just been looking through the forensic reports which I
find pretty hard to follow and they have made me itchy, what with all
the hair, mucus and sperm found lying about the place.. definitely
taking my own sheets on my next holiday.

Anyway, what I don't
understand is why the forensics relating to the Burgau apartment, where
Murat and Tanner DNA found, have been discredited when the conclusions
were the same for samples found in apartment 5a for example...

If
you look at the first set of results for apartment 5A ocean club, the
wording is exactly the same as for the 2nd set of results from other
locations.., ie. the haplotype identified by letter xxx, present in xxx
samples, and identical to that of xxx, meaning those samples was from
her/him or an individual of the same maternal bloodline.

I don't
believe the results from 5A have been questioned, because we would
EXPECT to see Gerry, Kate's etc DNA in the apartment, so accept that the
DNA is probably from them rather than someone with the same maternal
bloodline. That is fair enough because logic says it is probably their
DNA.

Yet for the other results, the wording is exactly the same ,
so for Robert Murat, DNA found at Casa Liliana, the volkswagen car and
the bathroom in Burgau matches him or someone with the same maternal
bloodline... If we accept the DNA for his home and his car, then why not
for the Burgau apartment.

For Jane Tanner, it doesn't appear
there is any DNA found in apartment 5a, but there is some found in the
Burgau apartment. Just because her DNA isn't expected to be found
there, it gets discounted ?

Don't want to resurrect something
that may have been looked at already, but just strikes me as odd and yet
again coincidental....

Fourth: The mitochondrial DNA study revealed (a):

In the analysed samples from apartament 5-A of the Ocean Club:

-
The Haplotype identified by the letter B1, present in one sample, and
identical to that of Maria Irene Trovao Ferro (IF), meaning that sample
was from her or an individual of the same maternal bloodline.

-
The Haplotype identified by the letters C e C*, present in 53 samples,
and identical to that of Kate Healy (KH), mother of the victim and to
that of Jose Maria Batista Roque (JMBR), meaning those sample were from
those persons or individuals of the same maternal bloodlines.

-
The Haplotype identified by the letter F, present in 3 samples, and
identical to that of Vltor Manuel Martins (VM), meaning those samples
were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodlines.

-
The Haplotype identified by the letter G, present in one sample, and
identical to that of Matthew David Oldfield (MO), meaning that sample
was from that person or an individual of the same maternal bloodline.

-
The Haplotype identified by the letter I, present in one sample, and
identical to that of David Anthony Payne (DP), meaning that sample was
from that person or an individual of the same maternal bloodline.

-
The Haplotype identified by the letters N e N*, present in 24 samples,
and identical to that of Gerald Mccann (GM), father of the victim,
meaning those sample were from that person or individuals of the same
maternal bloodlines.

- The Haplotype identified by the letter O.
present in 2 samples, and identical to that of Russell James O'Brien
(RJB), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the
same maternal bloodlines.

13

GENETIC AND BIOLOGICAL FORENSIC SERVICES

Processo no.2007/000565/PT-B
Processo no.2007/000244/CR-B5,B6
Processo no. 2007/000226/LX-BC1

In the analysed samples from other locations:

-
The Haplotype identified by the letter K, present in 16 samples, (1 in
the Residencia Liliana, 13 in vehicle Volkswagen, 1 in the Renault and l
in the Passat) and identical to that of Michaela Walczuch (MW) and to
that of Luis Filipe Monteiro Ferro (LFMF), meaning those samples were
from those persons or individuals of the same maternal bloodlines.

-
The Haplotype identified by the letters M e M*, present in 49 samples,
(35 in the Residencia Liliana, 13 in the vehicle Volkswagen and 1 in the
bathroom of the apartament in Burgau), and identical to that of Robert
James Queriol Eveleight Murat (RQMU), meaning those samples were from
that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.


-
The Haplotype identified by the letter R*, present in one sample from
the vehicle Volkswagen, and identical in HVI, to that of Nelson Filipe
Pacheco da Costa (NFPC) - letter R, meaning that sample was from that
person or an individual of the same amternal bloodline.

-
The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples,
(apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner
(JT), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the
same maternal bloodline.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
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Re: Bizarre comment from someone in the pub

Post by jd on 20.07.12 2:49

This is a great topic, well done Bristow for starting it and to everyone else who has been contributing. I agree too, where has Stewie gone? I miss his posts the most.

I just want to add some 'thoughts' into the mix to add to the great work done so far as we try to piece this together. Jane Tanners daughter 'E' was born only a few weeks after Maddie, so the same age. kate mccann and JT were pregnant at the same time. Robert Murat and his then ex-wife had spent many years unable to conceive but by what seems a miracle they also had their daughter around the same time too, not sure of the date his daughter was born. Remember Murats first comments about having a daughter that looked like Maddie etc.

Personally, I find it curious that JT and ROB are partners, not married. I understand not everyone gets married etc but even to this day I am unaware of any marriage and they are still 'partners', with 2 kids between them and with the rest of their friends married I would have thought they'd have made the plunge by now. This does not seem right to me in their circle of friends. One reason they may not be married is if the kids are not ROB's...just a thought

JT and ROB moved house from Leicester to Exeter shortly before the PDL holiday. Just by an absolute coincidence, their 'new' neighbours in Exeter, the Gorrods, also went to PDL the very same week (and went missing for 36 hours after arriving in Faro before eventually turning up at Ocean Club in their hire car). The Gorrods, Eveleighs and others all have links to Plymouth which is for another topic (everything has connections going straight back to the Symingtons too)

On the morning of 4th May 2007, ROB had robert murats phone number in his mobile phone
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