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Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by monkey mind on 12.07.12 20:11

@Miraflores wrote:I'd not heard that before. I wonder what sort of favour Gerry was calling in though to get another parent to go along with such a scam?

And of course, she needed to be whooshed away on the Friday pretty smartish.
Not necessarily the friday Miraflores. If there was indeed a substitute whose real name was Madelene as some have proposed, and that child was in the creche on thursday the 3rd until 5.30pm, then her and her parents could have been on a plane back to England or wherever by the time the alarm was raised at 10pm that night. It's a very simple and elegant yet brazen plan, personally speaking I don't have the least difficulty with it. Let's face it, one thing we can say about them is that they certainly do appear brazen, to me at least.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by puzzled on 12.07.12 20:15

candyfloss wrote:So if we go along with this theory, the parents of this girl must have been on this holiday with the McCanns and known them well, is that what the thoery is? So it was pre-planned? They surely wouldn't ask a stranger they had just met to do this. The creche sheets are a mess and something is amiss I tend to agree, but somehow I just can't believe or understand why anyone would go along with this?

Yes this is the problem I have with this theory, i.e that it implies that whatever happened was premeditated. What would be the motive, I wonder? Also, there would have to be a lot of people involved, and that's taking a risk, as the probability of something going wrong or someone making a mistake must surely increase the more people there are involved. Also, we should consider the amateurish way the 'abduction' was faked. If they'd had a week to plan it, surely they could have come up with something better than that!




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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Guest on 12.07.12 20:21

Also their very first press interview they didn't look brazen to me. They looked shattered, scared, shocked, as if something had indeed happened, so I still believe whatever happened happened on that night. If it was pre-planned I am sure they wouldn't have looked like that. As puzzled said, far too many people involved imo and no one has given a reason for this. Why would another family get involved?
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by mccannscam on 12.07.12 20:28

Châtelaine wrote:There are 2 theories prevailing in my mind [though, there are many others ...], based on what we know for a fact, one of them being that dogs have smelled a cadaver in Apartment 5A:
1. she died by accident and they didn't find her until HOURS later
2. she died in a criminal act

In both cases they had to avoid a post mortem, hence she had to disappear.


just what i was thinking last night ,also fact cadaver behind couch so body has been there either accidenty fell down the back of or concealed there at some point , my thoughts were as above last night , my thoughts are the same no body no way of telling how she died , what im trying to say is why didnt they ring ambulance to help ,in my opinion because something happened to that little girl which would of got 1 or more of them put inside for many years , i just dread to think what Sad

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by monkey mind on 12.07.12 20:42

Châtelaine wrote:There are 2 theories prevailing in my mind [though, there are many others ...], based on what we know for a fact, one of them being that dogs have smelled a cadaver in Apartment 5A:
1. she died by accident and they didn't find her until HOURS later
2. she died in a criminal act

In both cases they had to avoid a post mortem, hence she had to disappear.


If she died in an accident and they didn’t find her until hours later then she can’t have died on the 3rd. K and G allegedly arrived at the Tapas just before 9pm and the alarm was raised at 10pm. This wouldn’t be sufficient time for cadaverine to develop for the dogs to detect. Ergo, it must have been an earlier day, pick one – 2nd, 1st, 28th? In which case you still have to account for her presence at the crèche because not only the crèche records say she was there, but the nanny does also. The possibilities remaining are few...
1. M was signed in for however many days she was missing but the nannies never noticed that a child called Madeleine who had been there earlier in the week was signed in but missing.
2. The nannies are lying in order to support the crèche log.
3. For however many days she was missing from the crèche another child attended in M’s place and nobody noticed it was a different one.
4. It was pre-planned and on the first day, Sunday the 29th a child named Madeleine attended throughout the week until close of business on the 3rd. But it wasn’t Madeleine McCann. The nannies would be none the wiser and when the first picture of the missing Maddie was released they still were none the wiser as it was a very old picture and children change rapidly.
Those are possibilities...
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Guest on 12.07.12 20:46

@monkey mind wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:There are 2 theories prevailing in my mind [though, there are many others ...], based on what we know for a fact, one of them being that dogs have smelled a cadaver in Apartment 5A:
1. she died by accident and they didn't find her until HOURS later
2. she died in a criminal act

In both cases they had to avoid a post mortem, hence she had to disappear.


If she died in an accident and they didn’t find her until hours later then she can’t have died on the 3rd. K and G allegedly arrived at the Tapas just before 9pm and the alarm was raised at 10pm. This wouldn’t be sufficient time for cadaverine to develop for the dogs to detect. Ergo, it must have been an earlier day, pick one – 2nd, 1st, 28th? In which case you still have to account for her presence at the crèche because not only the crèche records say she was there, but the nanny does also. The possibilities remaining are few...
1. M was signed in for however many days she was missing but the nannies never noticed that a child called Madeleine who had been there earlier in the week was signed in but missing.
2. The nannies are lying in order to support the crèche log.
3. For however many days she was missing from the crèche another child attended in M’s place and nobody noticed it was a different one.
4. It was pre-planned and on the first day, Sunday the 29th a child named Madeleine attended throughout the week until close of business on the 3rd. But it wasn’t Madeleine McCann. The nannies would be none the wiser and when the first picture of the missing Maddie was released they still were none the wiser as it was a very old picture and children change rapidly.
Those are possibilities...

Why between 9 and 10 monkey mind? Are you relying on the tapas statements. Anytime after 5.30 which is when Goncalo said she was last seen.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by tigger on 12.07.12 20:55

candyfloss wrote:Also their very first press interview they didn't look brazen to me. They looked shattered, scared, shocked, as if something had indeed happened, so I still believe whatever happened happened on that night. If it was pre-planned I am sure they wouldn't have looked like that. As puzzled said, far too many people involved imo and no one has given a reason for this. Why would another family get involved?

I think they were shattered and shocked because the whole thing had gone so badly. Everything about the faked abduction that could go wrong, had gone wrong.
There was - as One said - possibly a plan A which involved something on the beach - the times given by the men about the tennis about 6 (I think there's a recent topic on it) doesn't fit with anything at all. CCTV evidence that they were still at the Paraiso when they said they were at tennis. They seemed very cagey about it.
So I can quite believe that they were scared and shocked, because the 'control' that Gerry is so fond of was out of their hands once they'd called in the police and the press.
The shutters didn't lift, the timeline had to be adjusted twice, the twins had to be put hurriedly back in their cots without the sheets, Gerry was seen by too many observant people with a live child in PdL, instead of just one or two holiday makers, the GNR hadn't understood his charade which might or might not have been freemasonry.
By the time they gave their first press statement, they'd also dealt with Yvonne Martin who'd recognized DP and been thoroughly questioned by the PJ - something they may not have anticipated. It may also have worried them that many of the statements they gave the PJ would have to be changed -
plenty to be worried about imo.

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by monkey mind on 12.07.12 21:00

candyfloss wrote:Also their very first press interview they didn't look brazen to me. They looked shattered, scared, shocked, as if something had indeed happened, so I still believe whatever happened happened on that night. If it was pre-planned I am sure they wouldn't have looked like that. As puzzled said, far too many people involved imo and no one has given a reason for this. Why would another family get involved?
I cannot say why another family may have become involved. I agree it does rub against the grain, but there could be any number of reasons. As I have posted on here before, there is nothing that any human being can do to another that will surprise me, shock me yes, surprise no. There is no limit to what people will do in my experience, so I don’t rule out a sub, not at all.
I’m not sure when their first interview was. If it was the next day well they had been up all night, then they would have looked haggered, tired, and shocked, scared too, they were now officially embarked upon a path with no means of knowing how it would turn out.

If it happened on the night of the third as you say, then GM holding a casual , calm conversation with JW (who had come to know G and said he seemed perfectly relaxed) shortly after his daughter had died by accident or otherwise, and presumably just after disposing of her body, only minutes before he knew the alarm was to be raised and all hell let loose, to have a nice calm conversation in the street and appear perfectly normal, that I would say is the epitome of brazenness. Flagrant, insolent audacity.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Miraflores on 12.07.12 21:02

Yes, these are all points why I think a substitute is unlikely. I tend to think that an accident happened e.g. possibly Madeleine fell and banged her head, and this was neglected. I also thought at the time that Gerry seemed the more shifty of the two.

Now I am beginning to think that we will never find out what happened to Madeleine.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Guest on 12.07.12 21:14

If we all agree that with almost 100% certainty poor Madeleine is dead and that she either had an accident or was killed, the most simple explanation why she is MISSING, is that no one could afford a post mortem. As for the time she must have lain dead for the cadaver dog to be able to sense and react to the odour: it's recently become clear that Grimes was right when he reported that a dog like Eddie would sense the difference between alive and dead within minutes ... So whenever she was found to be dead is immaterial, be it at 10 pm after last having been seen by an "independent" witness at 5:30 pm or whether at 9 pm and "discovered" by 10 pm or before May 3 ... it doesn't really matter, if you see what I mean, Tom Poes [for Dutch members only titter ]
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by tigger on 12.07.12 21:15

On the 6th of May - another statement from the parents after the Mothers' Day service.


Kate speaks publicly for the first time outside the church

Sunday 06 May 2007 (Mother's Day Service)

Kate: "Gerry and I would just like to express our sincere gratitude and thanks to everybody, but particularly the local community here, who have offered so much support. We couldn't have asked for more. I just want to say 'Thank you'. Please continue to pray for Madeleine. She's lovely."

Gerry: "From today's service, the thing that we are going to take from this is strength and courage and hope, and we continue to hope for the best possible outcome from this for us... and for Madeleine. Thank you."

Unquote. Needs no comment.


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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by monkey mind on 12.07.12 21:16

candyfloss wrote:[
Why between 9 and 10 monkey mind? Are you relying on the tapas statements. Anytime after 5.30 which is when Goncalo said she was last seen.
Candyfloss, that particular response was in relation to someone proposing that an accident occurred and she was discovered HOURS later.
I’m not relying on the Tapas statements, they are distinctly unreliable, but I think you would agree that G and K must have been in the Tapas at some time around 9pm, this would have been part of the alibi yes? So in answer to that particular question, if an accident had occurred earlier whilst they were in the appt it would not have been possible for it to be undiscovered therefore for that to happen it should have had to take place between 9 and 10 logically speaking, I’m not saying that is what happened, of course not.
And for it to have taken place sometime after 5.30pm as GA proposes, well you are still pushing it cadaverine wise, not impossible, but pushing it. Let’s say 6pm. The body would have to remain until about 8 probably, that leaves an hour to find a safe hiding place nearby and to dispose of it, get back tidy up, get changed, showered, and be down at dinner for 9 ready for a casual chat with JW a few mins later. But the McCanns say they were Tapas side at 8.30.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by tuom on 12.07.12 21:22

Châtelaine wrote:If we all agree that with almost 100% certainty poor Madeleine is dead and that she either had an accident or was killed, the most simple explanation why she is MISSING, is that no one could afford a post mortem. As for the time she must have lain dead for the cadaver dog to be able to sense and react to the odour: it's recently become clear that Grimes was right when he reported that a dog like Eddie would sense the difference between alive and dead within minutes ... So whenever she was found to be dead is immaterial, be it at 10 pm after last having been seen by an "independent" witness at 5:30 pm or whether at 9 pm and "discovered" by 10 pm or before May 3 ... it doesn't really matter, if you see what I mean, Tom Poes [for Dutch members only ]



I go along with accidental death , when is the puzzle , if it was earlier would it explain GMC asking DP to check on KMC ? did GMC go and play tennis just so that things would appear normal ? was DP in on it ? , if there was a cover up they would have had time to clean up and dispose of MMC , it sounds so brutal IMO , why was the apartment so clean that there was no DNA of MMC in it , and iirc the police said the apartment was very clean and tidy and that it did not seem to be the way an apartment would be with 2 adults and 3 children .
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Olive_Boyle on 12.07.12 22:48

@russiandoll wrote: quote from previous post :Would the crèche have noticed if a girl was missing?


Re a sub,the creche would have noticed a different child , regardless of how casually it was run and records were kept.
The creche workers would have accepted any little girl they were intoduced to as Maddie, as long as she was presented to them on the first morning. There is solid evidence the creche sheets were tampered with, dubious signatures relating to Robert Naylor and Russell O Brien when their respective daughters and also Madeleine were signed in and/or out.
I believe Madeleine was sadly deceased very early on in the holiday and 30th was the day when certain people were busy with the aftermath.

The creche workers would have accepted any little girl at the time but they would have realised afterwards when they saw photographs of the "real" Madeleine that it wasn't her. Creche workers arn't that daft, and I'm sure they would have spoken out and we would have heard about it.

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by uppatoffee on 12.07.12 22:56

That might be why the initial photos of her were so old though, to make it less obvious that it was a different child. To be honest I look at 10 different photos of Madeleine and I can't tell whether or not they are the same child. There are some similarities, but I can't be certain.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Guest on 12.07.12 22:59

The only problem there is that the photos of the "real" Madeleine are all so different that it would be very difficult to say with certainty if you'd seen her or not.

Uppatoffee, you have beaten me to the punch.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by russiandoll on 12.07.12 22:59

I take your point Olive Boyle but the photos released were rather confusing and did not look to be of the same child in the opinion of some people. I would have thought also that one nanny would have gone to the police and told them that was not the child in creche [ if we accept the sub theory]. I will see what Kikoratons views on the nanny silence re this matter is.
But none of the nannies mentioned the eye defect either and I have never seen a coloboma and neither has anyone I know so am surprised it was not remarked on when nannies were asked to describe the child. She was described as shy at creche but people with closer knowledge said she was a live wire and outgoing.

It is a very tangled web indeed.

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Olive_Boyle on 12.07.12 23:06

But when you've spent a few days babysitting/interacting with a child in the flesh, you get to know them well and would know the difference in a photograph. Plus there was more than one creche worker, I'm sure not all of them would have been taken in by it.

Personally all the photo's of Madeleine look like the same child to me, albeit at different ages.

My opinion is that this is pushing the theory a bit too far.

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Olive_Boyle on 12.07.12 23:09

It certainly is RussianDoll.

I'm not sure what a Kikorattan is?

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by uppatoffee on 12.07.12 23:10

Kikoratton is an ex intelligence officer who spent a lot of time researching the phone and creche records.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Guest on 12.07.12 23:11

Kikoraton is a researcher on this forum or I assume he still is, he hasn't been around for a while. Go to the members list and then on to statistics to see his posts.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Olive_Boyle on 12.07.12 23:14

Ah ok, thank you. Be interesting to see what he says.

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by uppatoffee on 12.07.12 23:20

You can also follow him on twitter if you use that? He quite often tweets to do with the case.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by monkey mind on 12.07.12 23:56

Jean wrote:The only problem there is that the photos of the "real" Madeleine are all so different that it would be very difficult to say with certainty if you'd seen her or not.

Uppatoffee, you have beaten me to the punch.
I agree with you both....
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by One on 13.07.12 6:47

There are some very interesting points of view. I'm all over the place on what happened that week, the possibilities of a stand in etc. So was hoping if I could get a bit of logic on why the alibi it might put some order to the chaos. The reason I think it was before 3rd is because the twins slept through the night and because of the discrepancy in her height and the first photos released.

Getting back to the alibi there were some great observations. I think as Tigger says they're not original thinkers so maybe I should treat myself to a glass or two of NZ best and ponder it from that angle. I get what's said about getting the press and the govt on board asap and that the break-in was the best story. I also get that the smoke and mirrors caused a huge distraction for the PJ's not to mention the diversion of Murat.But I'm simply wondering why such a lame alibi in the first place. Both MW and the PJ's insist there was no break in, how would you know on the 3rd that the lack of evidence would never be a problem? How would you know that the majority of the world would buy the story? I often wonder how things would stack up on that front in a court particularly if the McCann family/friends were summoned to explain where they got the info for the first press reports. And how they felt when they realized things didn't happen exactly as they were told.

I don't wish to trivialise what happened to Madeleine because in the chaos of what happened a little girl is gone and I know that everyone here including myself holds her in their thoughts all the time. But sometimes when I think of the story it comes across as something that was concocted in a bar late at night and presented as a dare.
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