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Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

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Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by One on 11.07.12 20:07

I purport it wasn't an abduction. I know if I went to my family and friends with a story like it I'd be told to get a grip and tell the truth. It's a leaky sieve.

I suppose on the plus side (or is it minus) there are so many holes it's hard to see the wood for the trees. In my mind there's no chance 9 adults would leave 8 children under 4 unattended especially the McCanns. The twins were already too large for a travel cot, if one awoke they'd all be awake rambling around the apartment. For the abduction to happen (according to forensics and their accounts) the abductor would need to have entered through the patio door and exited through the front door. As Gerry was at the Patio door the abductor would need to have been invisible and capable of walking through glass. You needed a key to exit through the front door unless they left it open in which case the 3 children could also have escaped.

The "why didn't you come" story makes me smile because also no chance Madeleine and Sean would have lay in their beds calling their parents and crying. Amelie would have woken and they'd have been camped out at the patio door screaming if they were unable to open it. And Rachel was next door all of the time. I think when Kate tells the story she's so fixed on planting the seed she forgets how horrific it'd be for a small child to waken in the dark in a strange place and find it's parents missing.

My problem is I can't get my head around the Tapas alibi or the unjemmied shutters. Why would one go to such lengths to prove negligence and insist on the abudction story knowing there was no crime scene?

I'm imagining another headline like "child snatched from beach" or something similar. I've read some previous posts and there's a notion that in order to prove an abduction you must prove negligence. I don't understand why. Parents get distracted, one of the twins could have a crisis that distracts a parent while another disappears from view. To me it's a simpler story and doesn't require too many stretches of the imagination.

I thought at first it was rigged quickly on 3rd. But the more I read the more I think something happened earlier in the week. Next I thought they were forced by someone and then that plan A went wrong and this was plan B. Was the last evening at the beach setting the stage for something that didn't work? Was Kate's story of the kids and the beach and the ice-creams describing something that went wrong at the last minute?
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by tigger on 11.07.12 20:46

That a very interesting thought One.
I've always had the feeling that plan A failed and plan B had to be instated.
Faking an abduction from the beach would be more believable than the whole farce of plan B. I've always wondered why they couldn't have had a child snatched by a stranger with a car/van whatever. But one would have to know PdL to see if that was feasible - it's a small place, a lot of people outdoors all the time.
Perhaps they thought it was a good and dramatic headline. There are also a large number of similarities with the JonBenet Ramsey case. Because imo the McCanns aren't original thinkers, they must have gotten the idea from somewhere.

The other point which is rarely mentioned is: if they had such brilliant contacts, who could deliver them the British Ambassador to their apartment within hours and had contacts with Gordon Brown, goodness knows who else - why didn't they simply get them to interfere in the Post Mortem? Dream up some excuse and ship the body out to the UK. Small news item of tragic death of toddler in Spain with a rider to be careful of tiled floors - end of story.
But no fame, no money, no new lifestyle...

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by T4two on 11.07.12 21:59

Imagine you're away and something happens to one of your children and she has to disappear. You call home to nearest relatives and also your friends who have friends in the media and political circles. It's crucially important that all the stops are pulled out as soon as possible - family, political help, diplomatic pressure etc. The abduction story must be out there without delay - before anyone starts to query anything. But how do you call people in the middle of the night and convince them to accept immediately that an abduction has taken place? Wouldn't the first reaction be to ask how long the child had been missing and to tell the caller to calm down and indeed try to calm them down by saying something like, "She's probably just woken up and wandered off, I'm sure they'll find her soon." or words to that effect? Why would the media take up the story so quickly unless something was said that convinced them to act immediately? By maintaining that the shutters had been jemmied, there was no room left for doubt - the apartment had been broken into through the jemmied shutters and the child taken from her bed. It was the jemmied shutter story that galvanized the family, the friends and the friends of friends into taking immediate action. There is no record of either of the McCanns ever having said that the shutters had been jemmied - only reports by various family members and friends that they had heard it from GM. So, the Portuguese police found absolutely no sign of a break in, but did that matter? The abduction story was out there and that was the priority - none of those who swallowed the abduction story or those who fed it to them cared one iota what the Portuguese police thought or did not think - they still don't.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Miraflores on 11.07.12 22:11

There is no record of either of the McCanns ever having said that the
shutters had been jemmied - only reports by various family members and
friends that they had heard it from GM.

But how did the various friends and relatives come to dream up the same story in the first place? It must have come from someone in Portugal, or was it someone in Glasgow making stuff up and ringing round? If it had just been one person, that one person would have been able to backtrack but my recollection was that it was at least a couple of people. Maybe Gerry, once he had phoned home, did try to break the shutters - he had broken the ones in the other bedroom which had to be fixed, but then the ones in the children's bedroom proved too strong and the PJ arrived. That would have been the end of that story except they had already got it out there; but it's that sort of story which made me begin to doubt them from very early on.

I vaguely remember about doors being wide open or hanging off hinges also, but that might have just been the press making stuff up.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by monkey mind on 11.07.12 22:35

It’s all about misdirection in my opinion, misdirection on a big scale right from the off, that and a clear cut scenario that would allow one to put wheels in motion with immediate effect, media, political pressure etc, right from the very off. The police quite possibly looking at entirely the wrong date and time and never being free to investigate the possibilities, never free to think. You really couldn’t do that if you alleged she wandered off for instance. Everything would necessarily progress at a much slower pace. The police would be free to start looking very seriously at you. They wouldn’t be fighting off the world and his brother from politicos and ambassadors to PR and crisis management / damage limitation experts. In short, you wouldn’t be able to put the police under the spotlight with intensity, instead, the focus of the world would be upon you....
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Cristobell on 12.07.12 0:19

@monkey mind wrote:It’s all about misdirection in my opinion, misdirection on a big scale right from the off, that and a clear cut scenario that would allow one to put wheels in motion with immediate effect, media, political pressure etc, right from the very off. The police quite possibly looking at entirely the wrong date and time and never being free to investigate the possibilities, never free to think. You really couldn’t do that if you alleged she wandered off for instance. Everything would necessarily progress at a much slower pace. The police would be free to start looking very seriously at you. They wouldn’t be fighting off the world and his brother from politicos and ambassadors to PR and crisis management / damage limitation experts. In short, you wouldn’t be able to put the police under the spotlight with intensity, instead, the focus of the world would be upon you....



I agree Monkeymind. Focus on the abductor, not the parents. Also wandering off would bring with it a greater chance of neglect charges. The kids would have been even more vulnerable, had they been able to wander out of the apartment.

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Guest on 12.07.12 10:17

What if the Maddie affair itself was a red herring, conceived and planned in advance to hide from publicity God knows what?
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by tigger on 12.07.12 10:18

@Miraflores wrote:
There is no record of either of the McCanns ever having said that the
shutters had been jemmied - only reports by various family members and
friends that they had heard it from GM.

But how did the various friends and relatives come to dream up the same story in the first place? It must have come from someone in Portugal, or was it someone in Glasgow making stuff up and ringing round? If it had just been one person, that one person would have been able to backtrack but my recollection was that it was at least a couple of people. Maybe Gerry, once he had phoned home, did try to break the shutters - he had broken the ones in the other bedroom which had to be fixed, but then the ones in the children's bedroom proved too strong and the PJ arrived. That would have been the end of that story except they had already got it out there; but it's that sort of story which made me begin to doubt them from very early on.

I vaguely remember about doors being wide open or hanging off hinges also, but that might have just been the press making stuff up.

Most of those stories are from the family members and Michael Wright for one. All of them say this is what they were told on the phone. Presumably by Gerry. I think Philomena is the one with the door hanging open (not off it's hinges). But then the doors are a story by themselves. Would be lovely if someone could do an animation of these flapping doors.

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by PeterMac on 12.07.12 10:51

This was from Blacksmith, a long time ago.
LET US PUT IT VERY SIMPLY SO THAT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND -
ABDUCTION IS IMPOSSIBLE

What was locked and what was open? Was there an 'abductor'?

To answer these questions, we need first to look at what was said by the McCanns to family and friends in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance.

Jon Corner clearly states that Kate had told him that they had left the apartment locked while they were having their meal. In other words both doors, front and patio, were locked.

Trish Cameron recalled that she received a call late that same night from Gerry and she recounted: "Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing... They think someone must have come in the window and gone out of the front door with Madeleine."

Philomena McCann, Gerry's sister, said on 04 May: "Some people may ask why they left the children alone in the apartment but it was locked and they had a full view of the front door and they were checking every half hour."

Gill Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV on 04 May: "She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."

The clear implication in Gill Renwick's statement is that she couldn't have gone out on her own because the front door and patio doors were locked. Otherwise Madeleine, as an active 4 yr-old, could surely have got out through 'open' patio doors very easily and on her own. She was clearly too small to attempt a climbed escape through a closed and shuttered window.

However, police tests showed the heavy metal shutter had not been forced up from the outside, so must have been pulled open from inside the room. Film of the scenes of Crime Officers doing the examination is to be found on YouTube

Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, spokesman for the investigation, confided in British former Chief Inspector Albert Kirby that neither the windows nor their shutters had been tampered with.

What must be appreciated, at this point, is that these comments, from closest family and friends - the first to be contacted, are not Chinese whispers. It is not a case that the McCanns rang one person, who got the message wrong, and this got passed on to everyone else. These are four people who received independent telephone calls from Gerry or Kate, in the hours following the 'abduction', and made independent statements. Yet, the statements all recount the same story. The McCanns' apartment was locked, so the 'abductor' must have gained access via the jemmied shutters and left via the front door.
[my emphasis]

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by uppatoffee on 12.07.12 11:18

By purporting that Madeleine had been abducted, the emphasis would clearly be on finding the person who did this as quickly as possible. We are always told that the first few hours are vital. Therefore the focus would not be on the family and they would be able to "clean up" anything that shouldn't be there without the weight of suspicion upon them.

This is why the early alert to the press was so crucial in my opinion. All the family members spun the abduction tale so quickly and in detail, before anyone actually verified whether their stories were correct. People woke up on May 4th to learn about the abduction of a little girl, not that there was a little girl that was missing.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by monkey mind on 12.07.12 13:34

@uppatoffee wrote:By purporting that Madeleine had been abducted, the emphasis would clearly be on finding the person who did this as quickly as possible. We are always told that the first few hours are vital. Therefore the focus would not be on the family and they would be able to "clean up" anything that shouldn't be there without the weight of suspicion upon them.

This is why the early alert to the press was so crucial in my opinion. All the family members spun the abduction tale so quickly and in detail, before anyone actually verified whether their stories were correct. People woke up on May 4th to learn about the abduction of a little girl, not that there was a little girl that was missing.
Yes, all very true, but it also did something else. If an abduction did not happen, couldn't have happened according to the Blacksmith account above, then it demanded the impossible of the Portuguese police. It demanded they solve a crime that did not happpen. Even Columbo would have fallen short. It had them looking in all the wrong places at all the wrong times for all the wrong things, all taking place under extreme pressure, political and all other manner of interference and intense media scrutiny. And the shameless, disgraceful British press continue to this day to hurl insult, torment, decry, and print blatant lies about those good police officers - honourable men and women that did their very, very best under those most trying of circumstances for a poor missing child, Madeleine.

In my honest opinion it appears there was a considerable gap between when the child disappeared to the time the police were actually looking at. This gap would have been far more difficult to create if it were alleged she wandered off on the beach or wherever, and it would also have created the obstacle of witnesses. It would also have been impossible to place the police under such political pressure had the abduction happened in England. Make no mistake, if that had happened dear Gerry and Kate would have come under the deepest scrutiny.

But they made three very big mistakes in my opinion....
Like very bad actors in a play nobody could get their lines right.
Whilst they may have expected the Portuguese inquisition, they certainly without question did not expect Eddie and Keela.
And of course who would have ever, for one minute thought, that the PJ would release almost all of the documents online and that an ex British Intelligence officer, with the help of some highly intelligent, perceptive and tenacious cyber detectives, well who would have thought that he would unearth what he did, not just in the phone records, but more inmportantly in the creche records Whether you agree with that evidence or not, it remains, it is proveable, and it demands explanation from all those involved, because it does to my mind, answer a whole lot of seemingly unanswerable questions.....

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by uppatoffee on 12.07.12 13:45

I quite agree! The more I read the more convinced I am that something happened earlier in the week. I'm still not totally convinced by the substitute theory though. Would the crèche have noticed if a girl was missing? What did Bridget O'Donnell say about blonde haired kids? There seems to have been fairly lax approach to paperwork by the nannies at the OC.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Littlefish on 12.07.12 14:49

The comments about 'losing' a child on the beach got me thinking about beaches and holiday resorts...isn't an abductor more likely to take advantage of a crowd when taking a child? At school, children are warned about accepting lifts off/talking to strangers in the street, or a park...

If I were an abductor, I wouldn't worry much about CCTV, since a hat/wig/pair of sunglasses would make it difficult to prove my identity or even, depending on what I was wearing, my sex or age. I would take advantage of the noise and bustle of a crowd. Parents are distracted, kids are distracted. Nor would I insist on abducting at night under cover of darkness, not in a holiday resort, because you'd never get complete darkness anyway. PDL ain't a forest. The streets of PDL may not have been well lit, but they were still lit, and lined with houses, restaurants and pubs all emitting light. What the streets at night aren't, though, is busy. So an abductor would really stand out. Particularly if abducting at the exact time of night when people are emptying restaurants and heading home to bed. No, I would be hanging around populous places, wearing a disguise, during the day. Madeleine's abductor sure took a lot of risks.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by russiandoll on 12.07.12 15:47

quote from previous post :Would the crèche have noticed if a girl was missing?


Re a sub,the creche would have noticed a different child , regardless of how casually it was run and records were kept.
The creche workers would have accepted any little girl they were intoduced to as Maddie, as long as she was presented to them on the first morning. There is solid evidence the creche sheets were tampered with, dubious signatures relating to Robert Naylor and Russell O Brien when their respective daughters and also Madeleine were signed in and/or out.
I believe Madeleine was sadly deceased very early on in the holiday and 30th was the day when certain people were busy with the aftermath.

littlefish..if I were an abductor who had been casing the joint and noting the checking routine I would not cross at the top of the very road the adults used to get to their respective apartments......I would have a car parked in the car park and drive out and in the opposite direction. And to have the bad luck of one of that group seeing you at the exact moment you were crossing the road.. what a coincidence .

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Spaniel on 12.07.12 15:47

"I would be hanging around populous places, wearing a disguise, during the day. Madeleine's abductor sure took a lot of risks."

If I were a potential child stealer, I wouldn't have been standing where man with jacket/ man without jacket was anyway.

I would have stood diagonally across from the front door on the opposite corner, thus covering both the front and street to the patio.

There are of course plenty who believe whatever the papers tell them. That dosen't excuse the ignorance of those who read but still ignore all evidence.

They have no cogent reply so all they do is criticise our posts.

I am so sorry to see Kololi back here, like a smelly mess I can't shake from my shoe. Why doesn't she go where she would be welcomed at jatyk2.

I don't understand why a pro would want to be here? I certainly wouldn't wish to be at their site.

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Nina on 12.07.12 15:53

@russiandoll wrote: quote from previous post :Would the crèche have noticed if a girl was missing?


Re a sub,the creche would have noticed a different child , regardless of how casually it was run and records were kept.
The creche workers would have accepted any little girl they were intoduced to as Maddie, as long as she was presented to them on the first morning. There is solid evidence the creche sheets were tampered with, dubious signatures relating to Robert Naylor and Russell O Brien when their respective daughters and also Madeleine were signed in and/or out.
I believe Madeleine was sadly deceased very early on in the holiday and 30th was the day when certain people were busy arranging for disposal of her remains.

I am not sure that Madeleine was sadly deceased very early on in the holiday I think she may have been elsewhere though and that she never went to the creche, a substitute child did.

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by monkey mind on 12.07.12 15:54

@russiandoll wrote: quote from previous post :Would the crèche have noticed if a girl was missing?


Re a sub,the creche would have noticed a different child , regardless of how casually it was run and records were kept.
The creche workers would have accepted any little girl they were intoduced to as Maddie, as long as she was presented to them on the first morning. There is solid evidence the creche sheets were tampered with, dubious signatures relating to Robert Naylor and Russell O Brien when their respective daughters and also Madeleine were signed in and/or out.
I believe Madeleine was sadly deceased very early on in the holiday and 30th was the day when certain people were busy with the aftermath.

littlefish..if I were an abductor who had been casing the joint and noting the checking routine I would not cross at the top of the very road the adults used to get to their respective apartments......I would have a car parked in the car park and drive out and in the opposite direction. And to have the bad luck of one of that group seeing you at the exact moment you were crossing the road.. what a coincidence .
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by uppatoffee on 12.07.12 15:56

@russiandoll wrote: quote from previous post :Would the crèche have noticed if a girl was missing?


Re a sub,the creche would have noticed a different child , regardless of how casually it was run and records were kept.
The creche workers would have accepted any little girl they were intoduced to as Maddie, as long as she was presented to them on the first morning. There is solid evidence the creche sheets were tampered with, dubious signatures relating to Robert Naylor and Russell O Brien when their respective daughters and also Madeleine were signed in and/or out.
I believe Madeleine was sadly deceased very early on in the holiday and 30th was the day when certain people were busy arranging for disposal of her remains.

I suppose what I was suggesting is that if things were fairly lax, if someone signed Madeleine in and she wasn't actually there, would it have been noticed?

Spaniel, Kololi seems to be willing to actually try and debate some of the questions, which is more than any of the other pros seem able to do. So I think it is useful to have her (?) here.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Spaniel on 12.07.12 16:33

@uppatoffee wrote:
@russiandoll wrote: quote from previous post :Would the crèche have noticed if a girl was missing?


Re a sub,the creche would have noticed a different child , regardless of how casually it was run and records were kept.
The creche workers would have accepted any little girl they were intoduced to as Maddie, as long as she was presented to them on the first morning. There is solid evidence the creche sheets were tampered with, dubious signatures relating to Robert Naylor and Russell O Brien when their respective daughters and also Madeleine were signed in and/or out.
I believe Madeleine was sadly deceased very early on in the holiday and 30th was the day when certain people were busy arranging for disposal of her remains.

I suppose what I was suggesting is that if things were fairly lax, if someone signed Madeleine in and she wasn't actually there, would it have been noticed?

Spaniel, Kololi seems to be willing to actually try and debate some of the questions, which is more than any of the other pros seem able to do. So I think it is useful to have her (?) here.

I totally diagree as kololi is only here to disrupt the flow. We dissagree but we do at least sing from the same hymn sheet, whereas kololi is only here to disrupt.

She has achieved what she wanted, another member lost.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by tigger on 12.07.12 18:20

Re the creche, not only did Maddie change three times on the 3rd of May , she doesn't have a creche bracelet on in either of the two photographs.

This makes no sense at all, at the very least the tennis photo should have shown one. Has anyone ever asked about the procedure?

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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Miraflores on 12.07.12 18:29

I find the substitute child hard to accept, unless it was a little girl called Madeleine, who really only did answer to that and not a nickname. All the accounts seem to suggest that a possible substitute was called Elizabeth, but even if you told her to pretend that it was a game and she had to pretend her name was something else, I doubt whether any three year old would be able to keep it up.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by uppatoffee on 12.07.12 18:38

The accounts I've heard state that there was a girl called Madelene, who was a friend of Elizabeth. There are no bookings for the surname of the Madelene at the Ocean Club that week. However there were two reservations in Elizabeth's family name, one of which was an owner booking.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Miraflores on 12.07.12 19:23

I'd not heard that before. I wonder what sort of favour Gerry was calling in though to get another parent to go along with such a scam?

And of course, she needed to be whooshed away on the Friday pretty smartish.
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Guest on 12.07.12 19:42

So if we go along with this theory, the parents of this girl must have been on this holiday with the McCanns and known them well, is that what the thoery is? So it was pre-planned? They surely wouldn't ask a stranger they had just met to do this. The creche sheets are a mess and something is amiss I tend to agree, but somehow I just can't believe or understand why anyone would go along with this?
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Re: Why the Tapas Alibi & Jemmied Shutters?

Post by Guest on 12.07.12 20:06

There are 2 theories prevailing in my mind [though, there are many others ...], based on what we know for a fact, one of them being that dogs have smelled a cadaver in Apartment 5A:
1. she died by accident and they didn't find her until HOURS later
2. she died in a criminal act

In both cases they had to avoid a post mortem, hence she had to disappear.


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