JOANA CIPRIANO - 3. The 63 facts found proved by the Portuguese Appeal Court when confirming the long jail sentences of Leonor and Joao Cipriano

I would not know, I was not there, that is my point, all I know is that a bad mother and rough upbringing does not on its own a murderer make. Psychopaths have a mindset, So I am well informed by my Chartered Psychologist daughter, although she has her own views on the Madeleine case from day one.

People should research untill their fingers bleed if they are to get at the truth, I also believe we have been given a very important lead to Madeleine,s abduction by Paulo Cristovao's 5-2-3-1 and why the reason for the ring of steel by UK's Government , but this too is still pure theory backed up with facts, but still theory, not enought proof in a court of law to bring a conviction.

As you know Tony, hard evidence and not second hand counts,, reliable witnesses as the Leveson enquiry's tally shows, e-mails, telephone calls, DNA full match, motive, gain. and the opportunity, dogs evidence has to be backed up with hard evidence such as a body, full DNA,etc.

I too want to find the truth what happened to Maddie and have worked hard for five years to find her, but the truth must be clear enough to bring a conviction in a safe court of law for people's lives are at stake here.

Passions run high when a child goes missing if we were in France so many people would plead crime of passion against libel allegations brought by the McCanns, its more than they have showed.

sijm wrote:I would not know, I was not there, that is my point, all I know is that a bad mother and rough upbringing does not on its own a murderer make. Psychopaths have a mindset, So I am well informed by my Chartered Psychologist daughter, although she has her own views on the Madeleine case from day one.

People should research untill their fingers bleed if they are to get at the truth, I also believe we have been given a very important lead to Madeleine,s abduction by Paulo Cristovao's 5-2-3-1 and why the reason for the ring of steel by UK's Government , but this too is still pure theory backed up with facts, but still theory, not enought proof in a court of law to bring a conviction.

As you know Tony, hard evidence and not second hand counts,, reliable witnesses as the Leveson enquiry's tally shows, e-mails, telephone calls, DNA full match, motive, gain. and the opportunity, dogs evidence has to be backed up with hard evidence such as a body, full DNA,etc.

I too want to find the truth what happened to Maddie and have worked hard for five years to find her, but the truth must be clear enough to bring a conviction in a safe court of law for people's lives are at stake here.

Passions run high when a child goes missing if we were in France so many people would plead crime of passion against libel allegations brought by the McCanns, its more than they have showed.

No, not necessarily, Suzanne Pilley case and the Adrian Prout case come to mind.

And Teresa Parker case in usa. Eddie alerted in sept 07, husband charged/convicted in 2009, body found in 2010, thats my recollection

sijm wrote:I would not know [if the judge and jury were right to convict Leonor and Joao Cipriano of murder], I was not there, that is my point, all I know is that a bad mother and rough upbringing does not on its own a murderer make...

Thank you for your response, sijm. Though neither me nor anyone else here has suggested that a bad mother and a rough upbringing 'make a murderer'.

And yes, friedtomatoes, your heading your post 'sijm' led me to think that that was sijm's reply. My mistake.

So, sijm, you say: "I would not know, I was not there, that is my point, all I know is that a bad mother and rough upbringing does not on its own a murderer make..."

That didn't directly answer my question, which was: whether you thought the judge and jury were right or wrong to convict the pair of Joana's brutal murder.

But you have in effect provided your answer, which is: "I think the evidence against them was unconvincing and the judge and jury may have got it wrong".

Also, despite the court dismissing Leonor Cipriano's claim that the three detectives beat and tortured her, and despite the many lies and changes of story that emanated from the mouths of the pair of them - Leonor Cipriano especially - you both believe she WAS tortured.

I find these comments interesting, illuminating even.

Just as I found this earlier comment from you, sijm, illiuminating:

"As I have stated before it is my belief, based purely on evidence and structure of the unfolding events, Madeleine was secreted away as a commodity and did not meet with her final fate until June, when it become impossible to contain a four year old screaming, kicking child".

It's hardly surprising that you've not yet broguht us a shred of evidence to support your belief, although you have been setting great credence recently on Danie Krugel, some sateillite images, and the ramblings of Donal Macintyre.

Re: Tinmans 918 explains how ridiculously easy it woul have been for abduction to snatich Madeleine without being seen ......................
sijm Yesterday at 7:36 pm




I would not know, I was not there, that is my point, all I know is that a bad mother and rough upbringing does not on its own a murderer make. Psychopaths have a mindset, So I am well informed by my Chartered Psychologist daughter, although she has her own views on the Madeleine case from day one.

People should research untill their fingers bleed if they are to get at the truth, I also believe we have been given a very important lead to Madeleine,s abduction by Paulo Cristovao's 5-2-3-1 and why the reason for the ring of steel by UK's Government , but this too is still pure theory backed up with facts, but still theory, not enought proof in a court of law to bring a conviction.

As you know Tony, hard evidence and not second hand counts,, reliable witnesses as the Leveson enquiry's tally shows, e-mails, telephone calls, DNA full match, motive, gain. and the opportunity, dogs evidence has to be backed up with hard evidence such as a body, full DNA,etc.

I too want to find the truth what happened to Maddie and have worked hard for five years to find her, but the truth must be clear enough to bring a conviction in a safe court of law for people's lives are at stake here.

Passions run high when a child goes missing if we were in France so many people would plead crime of passion against libel allegations brought by the McCanns, its more than they have showed.
____
This chartered phsychologist daughter of yours obviously has had no impact in your lack of basic concept.
For your information, I am aquainted with a family whose idea of family is way out there, so much crasyness, not crazy in a bad way just nutty. I was bemused to find that the daughter had qualified as a phychologist even though she herself was not blessed with the basic tools of making friendships.

What is it that you do not get about the Tapas Group's succesfull attempt to cover up the death of Madeleine by hiring extradition lawyers and making a deal with the devil i.e Murdoch.
Lets face it if you are a parent and you take your responsibities seriously, no way will you go out of your way to expose your kids to danger, the Mc Cann's claim that they did just that, yet they claim that they are responsible parents and that they have been advised by a UK established institution that their conduct was well within the bounds of responsible parenting. I want to know who told Kate McCann that her style of parenting was well withing the bounds of responsible parenting, and I want to know if they are still practicing, and if so how come.

Bumping - for the readers to learn the truth about Leonor Cipriano as opposed to any nonsense reported in The Sun