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The Paynes Oversized Apartment

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The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by Hummingbird on 24.05.12 12:35

I have always found it rather odd the way the Paynes make a big thing about their apartment and have been reading through the statements of DW, FP & DP.

Here are the things I find most odd.

FP states that they booked the only 2 bedroomed apartment! K & G had a 2 bedroomed apartment! Surely though if there are 3 adults and 2 children you would consider having a three bedroomed apartment, unless of course you are perfectly happy to let your dear old mother sleep on a fold out bed in the lounge while there are 2 perfectly empty and unused single beds in the 2nd bedroom - oh of course I remember she didn't want to sleep in there because the 2 year old was sleeping in that room - in a cot!!

I have always found it very odd that a grandmother wouldn't sleep in the same bedroom as one of her little baby grand daughters so was quite happy to sleep in the lounge and perhaps unfold and fold up this bed everyday and even have to make it each night as if it was a sofa bed you generally can't fold them back with all the bedding on!! So they needed an over sized apartment so one baby could sleep on her own in a bedroom while granny went to all this trouble (the youngest was in with her parents).

Could it be that someone else was staying here too and that is why DW had to sleep on the folding out bed in the lounge?

Also they state that on the night that Madeleine went missing, once the twins had been bought up (after two more cots were found for them) K & G also arrived to try to rest if not sleep and that more mattresses were found by the MW staff for them and they were placed on the floor in the lounge.
Why do we need more mattresses as there are 2 unused ones in the 2nd bedroom?

Any one got any ideas?


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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by pauline on 24.05.12 14:12

What I have found odd about Diane Webster (DW) is that she doesn't appear to have done any babysitting. In my experience when grandparents go on holiday with their children and grandchildren, part of their function is to provide help with the children. Am I being cynical here?

Sleeping on the pullout bed in the lounge isn't my idea of a good holiday. How much more would a 3 bedroom apartment have cost? As far as I know DW was working (not an OAP on the basic pension) so why not pay a little more for comfort? Personally I wouldn't want to sleep in the same room as my grand children (if I had any) but I would want my comforts and that means a proper bed and my own room.

DW could have babysat her own grandchildren or the whole group's children in return for having her holiday subsidised by all these doctors. That would have been a good arrangement - a mature experienced granny you could trust. yet DW seems to have had little to do with the children.
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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by Hummingbird on 24.05.12 14:19

pauline wrote:What I have found odd about Diane Webster (DW) is that she doesn't appear to have done any babysitting. In my experience when grandparents go on holiday with their children and grandchildren, part of their function is to provide help with the children. Am I being cynical here?

Sleeping on the pullout bed in the lounge isn't my idea of a good holiday. How much more would a 3 bedroom apartment have cost? As far as I know DW was working (not an OAP on the basic pension) so why not pay a little more for comfort? Personally I wouldn't want to sleep in the same room as my grand children (if I had any) but I would want my comforts and that means a proper bed and my own room.

DW could have babysat her own grandchildren or the whole group's children in return for having her holiday subsidised by all these doctors. That would have been a good arrangement - a mature experienced granny you could trust. yet DW seems to have had little to do with the children.

Or is this where all the children were left every night seeing as it was the only apartment that had the use of a baby monitor?? I agree I cannot imagine sleeping on a pull out bed especially when there are 2 empty ones even if a little one is asleep in there in a cot. Can you just imagine asking your mother to come on holiday and then saying but you don't mind sleeping on the pull out bed do you only we want to put the baby in the other room in her cot and we can always just lay all the clothes out on the two spare beds!!

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by friedtomatoes on 24.05.12 17:05

I think if there were half a dozen cots in the payne apartment the cleaner would have mentioned it.

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by Hummingbird on 24.05.12 17:25

friedtomatoes wrote:I think if there were half a dozen cots in the payne apartment the cleaner would have mentioned it.

Obviously I didn't mean all night long otherwise that would be very obvious and yes the cleaner would have wondered how come there were so many cots!! I meant is this where the children were left whilst the parents had their meals? It has been suggested before that perhaps they were all looked after in one of the apartments each night and as the Paynes had a baby monitor and supposedly a bigger apartment than anyone else, I was only suggesting that perhaps this was where they were all taken and then collected when the evening had finished. I am not saying whether I think this happened or not just a suggestion.

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by friedtomatoes on 24.05.12 17:52

HB, for them to carry over cots and eight or so children then collect them and children at the end of the night would also imo be noticed by someone over five evenings. And if they were all in Paynes flat how did someone open the shutters in 5a and abduct maddie?

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by Miraflores on 24.05.12 18:00

And if they were all in Paynes flat how did someone open the shutters in 5a and abduct maddie?

Ah, it's like those murder mysteries of the person in the locked room fried tomatoes - but in this case, no problem, because it didn't happen!
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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by friedtomatoes on 24.05.12 18:11

Miraflores wrote:
And if they were all in Paynes flat how did someone open the shutters in 5a and abduct maddie?

Ah, it's like those murder mysteries of the person in the locked room fried tomatoes - but in this case, no problem, because it didn't happen!

yes, and neither imo were all kids in oneapartment either, and if they were and were as theorised being listened to on a baby monitor, no one would have to go and check every 20 minutes. Then again this baby monitor anyway, how could any one hear anything from it in the rowdy tapas bar.


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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by Hummingbird on 24.05.12 18:17

friedtomatoes wrote:HB, for them to carry over cots and eight or so children then collect them and children at the end of the night would also imo be noticed by someone over five evenings. And if they were all in Paynes flat how did someone open the shutters in 5a and abduct maddie?

Firstly I do not suspect they carried over cots etc children sleep in single beds, fold out beds, double beds and cots also pushchairs and therefore as that apartment had all of these(not 100% sure about the pushchair) then my suggestion would be perhaps the children were taken there once they were sleepy and settled down then the friends could go party Anyway this is not my theory alone it has been discussed on this forum at great length.

As far as I know there were not that many people around and to collect a sleeping child and carry it back home to your own apartment is not something that would cause suspicion.

As for your last sentence, perhaps you could enlighten me friedtomatoes, how did they open the shutters in 5a and abduct Maddie?

As for your 2nd statement, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it as I say this is theory that has been discussed before, not just mine.

How do you know 100% that they did do any checks and as for the monitor I believe not only do they make a noise they also light up - by please correct me if I am wrong. Anyway I am sure if a baby was crying someone would have heard it go off - oh and how do you know it was rowdy tapas bar it seems to me there were only ever a hand full of people eating there at any given time and you make it sound like it was packed out, fully booked and the high holiday season!.



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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by tigger on 24.05.12 18:33

friedtomatoes wrote:I think if there were half a dozen cots in the payne apartment the cleaner would have mentioned it.

It's highly likely that the twins didn't even use the cots but slept together on one of the beds, with the cots pushed up against the side so they couldn't fall out. Sean was certainly too big for a cot. There was quite a lot posted about this recently.

So Hummingbird is spot on imo. Not only does the PJ have evidence of seven children sleeping in one room, there is no need to move any beds. Small children will love a bit of a sleepover, the mattresses could have been pulled off the beds so creating more bedding to sleep on. I f they're already on the floor, there's little danger of falling. Simple.

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by friedtomatoes on 24.05.12 18:39

hummingbird, before I go, you misunderstood. I asked if the kids were all in paynes flat why would anyone alledge maddie was taken from 5a, that the flat was broken into etc if she wasnt there at the time, after all having all the kids in one apartment with a baby monitor would be more reasonable parenting wouldnt it?

mrs fenn also heard crying from the flat directly below her on tuesday may 1st for over an hour.

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by Guest on 24.05.12 18:41

tigger wrote:
friedtomatoes wrote:I think if there were half a dozen cots in the payne apartment the cleaner would have mentioned it.

It's highly likely that the twins didn't even use the cots but slept together on one of the beds, with the cots pushed up against the side so they couldn't fall out. Sean was certainly too big for a cot. There was quite a lot posted about this recently.

So Hummingbird is spot on imo. Not only does the PJ have evidence of seven children sleeping in one room, there is no need to move any beds. Small children will love a bit of a sleepover, the mattresses could have been pulled off the beds so creating more bedding to sleep on. I f they're already on the floor, there's little danger of falling. Simple.

Pat Perkins did say ( I posted it somewhere yesterday) the abductor took Madeleine from in between the twins.
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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by friedtomatoes on 24.05.12 18:41

tigger wrote:
friedtomatoes wrote:I think if there were half a dozen cots in the payne apartment the cleaner would have mentioned it.

It's highly likely that the twins didn't even use the cots but slept together on one of the beds, with the cots pushed up against the side so they couldn't fall out. Sean was certainly too big for a cot. There was quite a lot posted about this recently.

So Hummingbird is spot on imo. Not only does the PJ have evidence of seven children sleeping in one room, there is no need to move any beds. Small children will love a bit of a sleepover, the mattresses could have been pulled off the beds so creating more bedding to sleep on. I f they're already on the floor, there's little danger of falling. Simple.

where is this evidence the PJ had they all slept in one flat? BB tomorrow to read it.

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by Guest on 24.05.12 18:48

Found it, this would make more sense, if the twins were never in their cots.

Pat Perkins, 61, a close friend of Madeleine's grandmother Susan, added: "We are all absolutely out of our minds with worry. It seems Madeleine was taken from in between the twins and whoever did this left by the main entrance. We're all going through hell."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id121.html

As I said this lady was with Susan Healy the night Madeleine disappeared. She must have been told this that night, it is not something you would get from thin air.

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by tigger on 24.05.12 19:03


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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by Spaniel on 24.05.12 19:17

friedtomatoes wrote:
Miraflores wrote:
And if they were all in Paynes flat how did someone open the shutters in 5a and abduct maddie?

Ah, it's like those murder mysteries of the person in the locked room fried tomatoes - but in this case, no problem, because it didn't happen!

yes, and neither imo were all kids in oneapartment either, and if they were and were as theorised being listened to on a baby monitor, no one would have to go and check every 20 minutes. Then again this baby monitor anyway, how could any one hear anything from it in the rowdy tapas bar.

FT, who told you the kids were being checked at regular intervals? The McCanns that's who, nuff said.

I can say that kids here sleep in day nurseries on thin mattresses on the floor with all sorts of commotion around them and don't wake up. They managed it in the evening creche, so why not at Payne's?
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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by sami on 24.05.12 19:59

Just because it was Paynes monitor does not mean it had to stay in Paynes apartment. The monitor and children could have gone to 5a, or indeed any of the other apartments.
The arrangement of the bedcovers on the beds in 5a in the police photos from that night make it look as if all of the beds were slept in. To me, the pillows on Kate and Gerrys bed look as though they were arranged for small children. The cots were bare and empty but then if a child were brought down for a short sleep from another apartment, a blanket would also have been brought with the child for the trip home. So child plus blanket into the cot, then child plus blanket back out.
The McCanns had more children to move and bigger ones than some of the others. It would make sense to move the smaller ones if possible.
Perhaps all of the children went to 5a, except for the nights where there was an adult "sick" and the children belonging to that family stayed in their own apartment ?
Just an idea.

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by Ribisl on 24.05.12 20:56

I remain unconvinced by any of the theories posted here. Paulo Rebelo may or may not have followed such line of investigation at some point but I see no evidence to suggest these children were being looked after in a group. On the other hand, we have Mrs Fenn's statement which indicates the McCann children were in fact in 5A on the 1st.
FP's reference to the Club could have meant the Ocean Club ie apartments. Or else why would she say that she and DP did not go there to check on their children because they had a monitor but the others did so regularly. It makes no sense if we assume all the children were together in one place but only these two did not go to check because they had a monitor and the others didn't.

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by friedtomatoes on 24.05.12 22:47

tigger wrote:https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3295p10-baby-minding-club?highlight=the+club

http://steelmagnolia-steelmagnolia.blogspot.com/2011/06/httpwww.html

Two interesting links. Friedtomatoes - have you ever tried Google? or the McCannfiles?

none of that proves your assertion that the PJ had evidence all the kids were in one flat does it? Where is the PJ evidence tigger? File numbers please. Blogs and google and whatever is contained in them is not fact or proof, unless backed up by solid sources. wheat from chaffe dear is my motto. it should be yours too otherwise u will be hear in twenty years time saying madeleine died in 2006 but went on holiday to ireland a year later then
tip stop reading ttw4 and other conspiracy theorists, u will feel better guaranteed and will be nore grounded in reality

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by FH on 24.05.12 23:00

friedtomatoes wrote:
tigger wrote:https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3295p10-baby-minding-club?highlight=the+club

http://steelmagnolia-steelmagnolia.blogspot.com/2011/06/httpwww.html

Two interesting links. Friedtomatoes - have you ever tried Google? or the McCannfiles?

none of that proves your assertion that the PJ had evidence all the kids were in one flat does it? Where is the PJ evidence tigger? File numbers please. Blogs and google and whatever is contained in them is not fact or proof, unless backed up by solid sources. wheat from chaffe dear is my motto. it should be yours too otherwise u will be hear in twenty years time saying madeleine died in 2006 but went on holiday to ireland a year later then
tip stop reading ttw4 and other conspiracy theorists, u will feel better guaranteed and will be nore grounded in reality

I asked the same question and I'm sure tigger has posted a reference to this on a different thread. It might have been from Amaral's book? I'm not a fan of all the children being in one apartment every night and I still think the crying below Mrs Fenn indicates someone wasn't being checked every 30 minutes, but perhaps there was some sort of incident and perhaps the nightly practices changed over the course of the week?

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by jmac on 25.05.12 2:42

Suppose the children had all slept together in the one apartment each night as a matter of course. Imagine the scene at the end of each night on the parents` return. Trying to keep the noise level down; grabbing hold of comfort blankets and cuddlecats and that sort of thing without switching too many lights on; avoiding bumping into each other whilst carrying off the children - all of that would have been difficult, and Kate and Gerry had three children to remove. All of this at the end of an evening having consumed a substantial amount of alcohol. It would have been a nightmare. Now I realise we`re dealing with doctors, not sensible people, but still ...

I tend to agree with friedtomatoes, Ribisi and FT that this idea is questionable.

If the children had all slept in the one apartment with a baby monitor, it does raise the question: why would the McCanns, on the night of Madeleine`s disappearance, claim otherwise? They could have saved themselves the embarrassment of being seen as child neglectors if the alleged abductor had jemmied the shutters in this other apartment instead. But, of course, that would have meant everybody in the group agreeing. Maybe that`s it. It didn`t happen.

As for Pat Perkin`s testimony, we`re talking about Chinese Whispers all the way to another country, and starting with Kate`s phone-call to her mother. Hardly what most people would call reliable.

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by aquila on 25.05.12 3:23

jmac wrote:Suppose the children had all slept together in the one apartment each night as a matter of course. Imagine the scene at the end of each night on the parents` return. Trying to keep the noise level down; grabbing hold of comfort blankets and cuddlecats and that sort of thing without switching too many lights on; avoiding bumping into each other whilst carrying off the children - all of that would have been difficult, and Kate and Gerry had three children to remove. All of this at the end of an evening having consumed a substantial amount of alcohol. It would have been a nightmare. Now I realise we`re dealing with doctors, not sensible people, but still ...

I tend to agree with friedtomatoes, Ribisi and FT that this idea is questionable.

If the children had all slept in the one apartment with a baby monitor, it does raise the question: why would the McCanns, on the night of Madeleine`s disappearance, claim otherwise? They could have saved themselves the embarrassment of being seen as child neglectors if the alleged abductor had jemmied the shutters in this other apartment instead. But, of course, that would have meant everybody in the group agreeing. Maybe that`s it. It didn`t happen.

As for Pat Perkin`s testimony, we`re talking about Chinese Whispers all the way to another country, and starting with Kate`s phone-call to her mother. Hardly what most people would call reliable.

I don't believe the children were all placed together in one apartment. I do believe that T7 and TM change tact as and when it suits. I do believe that it is so remarkable that within hours the full force of the UK government/press et al were on-hand and many of them physically present. I'd like someone to tell me how the Mc's had so many contacts that were immediately available to them.
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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by tigger on 25.05.12 5:51

http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.com/search?q=beds

This is from Anna Esse's blog - I have posted it before.

I think Rebello may simply have meant that they were there for the evening but the main point about his remark is that there were seven children sleeping together. Not eight.

So imo Maddie was excluded from that group and possibly did sleep alone and sedated in 5a from the early evening onwards.

It really isn't a big deal for the two other couples to collect their children somewhere between midnight and one I'm guessing.
MO and RM had a baby, ROB and JT each carrying one child. the McCs each carrying one of the twins. Done in five minutes.

As AnnaEsse pointed out, the rumpled bed was because the twins slept there normally and it also explains why the cots had no sheets. It may well be why Kate wittered on about sleeping in that bed the previous night because she wanted to explain why it looked slept in.
What is now more interesting is what the cleaner saw on Wednesday morning, also one unused and one used bed? Because that would definitely means that Maddie had already left the building.
Having all the children except Maddie together earlier in the week might have been explained by Maddie being ill or disruptive.

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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by Guest on 25.05.12 6:28

I'm not convinced they were all in one apartment but if they were I don't see a problem with the twins waking up on being taken back to their room .. Given the mayhem in the apartment on 3 with all and sundry coming in and out they didn't wake up...
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Re: The Paynes Oversized Apartment

Post by Guest on 25.05.12 9:39

This is the story that appeared in the Sun........

7 kids were left in McCann flat

[snipped]

POLICE in Portugal piled fresh torment on Madeleine McCann’s parents yesterday by claiming SIX other kids were with her the night she disappeared.

The bizarre theory – that the couple’s friends left their own children in the fateful holiday apartment to go out – emerged as the country’s No2 cop took over the case of the missing four-year-old.

But police sources reportedly told Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas they had "significant evidence" that seven of the eight children in the group had been in the McCanns' apartment.

Reports suggest they did not give an explanation as to where the eighth child was.


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/322443/Maddie-McCann-7-kids-left-in-McCann-flat-bizarre-new-claim.html?print=yes

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