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FACT FILE

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by jd on 22.05.12 11:59

@Snifferdog wrote:
@jd wrote:Maybe they packed it in their luggage prior to leaving for the holiday....sure it went through security checks and customs no problem
Yes perhaps Jd. I think they would have made a pretty innocent picture, just a group of doctor friends and children off on a family holiday.
As with all crimes committed, there are risks involved for the perpetrators.

Some of your other theories I can see value in but not this one, never. I'm sorry but this one is way far fetched. If they wanted to get rid of their daughter and plant cavader etc they would not go to a foreign country to do the act, it would be done in the UK. They would not incriminate themselves by planting cavader in a foreign country just so they can sue for libels. What happened was a result of an unexpected tragic accident, they were there primarily on business, not to murder their daughter. If anything there is reason to believe that maybe they were going have her adopted perhaps at a later date in the UK. I know for a fact Maddie existed and went on that holiday from close friends

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by Guest on 22.05.12 12:03

@jd wrote:
@Snifferdog wrote:
@jd wrote:Maybe they packed it in their luggage prior to leaving for the holiday....sure it went through security checks and customs no problem
Yes perhaps Jd. I think they would have made a pretty innocent picture, just a group of doctor friends and children off on a family holiday.
As with all crimes committed, there are risks involved for the perpetrators.

Some of your other theories I can see value in but not this one, never. I'm sorry but this one is way far fetched. If they wanted to get rid of their daughter and plant cavader etc they would not go to a foreign country to do the act, it would be done in the UK. They would not incriminate themselves by planting cavader in a foreign country just so they can sue for libels. What happened was a result of an unexpected tragic accident, they were there primarily on business, not to murder their daughter. If anything there is reason to believe that maybe they were going have her adopted perhaps at a later date in the UK. I know for a fact Maddie existed and went on that holiday from close friends

Really? Can you elaborate on that?
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Re: FACT FILE

Post by Hummingbird on 22.05.12 12:07

@russiandoll wrote: Hi Snifferdog.
I am still ploughing on reading, I read some of the files once released then after borrowing the book from my library last year, it rang so many alarm bells that my unease and suspicions only increased and I started to read blogs and came here to read and then wanted to post my thoughts and enter debate.
I am trying to decide if the paedo aspect of the case is a diversionary tactic, despite the worrying Gaspar and DP issues.
Swinging while an intell op was ongoing.........what happened focused more attention on Praia da Luz not less, so I need to read more about what and why things happened acc to that theory.

My initial thoughts on reading some of the files once they were released.....an accident followed by panic.
Then read more....too much in place too rapidly for panic, despite the mess up and contradictions/inconsistencies. I am thinking of the embassy presence, the setting up of the fund and the publication of the iconic photo, which appears to show Maddie at a younger age than the alleged Dec 06.

The dogs do not lie. There might not have been a death in 5a, but there was either a body there long enough for cadaverine to develop, so moved from elsewhere, or blood and cadaverine were planted by the couple, the scent could have been transferred from items of clothing and a dr would have easy access to a vial to store blood. It seemed implausible, but possible to my mind at the time if the whole thing was a hoax to make money. I speculated then that Maddie was alive and well and had been either left in the UK or elsewhere with a family member in on the plan, or had been to Portugal to be taken by arrangement to a place of safety.
This was my Maddie alive and all a scam for money scenario.

Maddie not alive....... a plan to make money from a faked abduction, then a fatal accident intervened and all had to be done on the hoof, hence the mess-up.
A seems a risk too far, as the more people involved the riskier, but there is something wrong with the creche sheets and the phone activity is very interesting.A sub to avoid risk would need to be in place from the outset, so maybe Maddie was not in OC but elsewhere nearby [Burgau, see topic on Burgau and Murat], if Maddie was in OC however and met her fate after starting at creche, a sub would be a risk they would have to take.
I was coming to the conclusion the little one passed away not long after arrival, 29th, but this means involving another adult in the subterfuge.....who would loan you a daughter for this charade? 30th April and May 2nd dates on which there is a lot of silence........so significant imo.
Maybe my original idea was not so crazy after all....that she never went to Portugal or if there was never at OC.
Do you believe the smirks are because the couple know Maddie is safe and well, maybe hidden in plain sight?
Or do you believe she is dead and if so, what do you think happened to her and how does the scam fit in?
I find it a step too far to accept until I see more evidence , the theory that a plan to dispose of her was hatched as part of a money making scam.
But I do not believe she is alive........I am like everyone else here trying to work out what happened to her and when.


And this is the exact reason I started the thread 'My Biggest Fear' I have no idea whether Madeleine is alive or dead or why or how this whole thing came about.

There are 4 possible events in my mind (again only my opinion)

1. Abduction - but can never get to the end of the theory without thinking highly unlikely
2. Accidental death on the 3rd (or possibly before) explains a lot but not the sudden 'put together' of so many things
3. Planned death, possible explains a lot, including posters, funds, calls to tv stations, Priests, phone calls, and the 'dogs'
4. Still alive , possible but just how many people are involved in this.

The thing I can never understand is as you say, there are too many people involved and surely someone would have squealed by now, safety in numbers is surely not something you need to commit a crime, the less people who know the better! Unless you carefully pick the people you want involved because each and every single one of them also has something to hide?

The mind boggles!!

jd you have just added a post whilst I was writing this and I notice you say 'they were there primarily on business' - what business? I thought this was a family holiday?

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by jd on 22.05.12 12:16

Not on an open public forum. What I know is nothing spectacular and just the fact that Maddie did exist and did go on holiday

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by Snifferdog on 22.05.12 12:20

@Lady-Heather wrote:Many people appear to consider the substitute theory to be out of the question, and that it's more likely that the parents killed her or allowed her to die and then hide the body. And then, that they were able to go out running/meeting the pope/various day trips like nothing had happened. I personally find the latter to be the least plausible, although not impossible by any means.

I am 99% convinced that this a hoax. My suspicions starting as far back as the 'Donegal' thread started by Daisy (thank you Daisy). In that thread there is a reference to a website gives support to the Irish roots story invented by (sorry, reported on) and elaborated on in the Irish & national press. Through a bit of digging and research I came to the conclusion that the site was almost certainly a fake, which then inspired me to look for other signs of make-believe and deception. There’s a lot of it out there. The initial photos that were given out on the night of the 3/4th, that appeared to have been pre-prepared (even the PJ didn’t buy that one). The crèche sheets, the photoshopping, the proximity of the press and others involved in media production.

The cadaver dogs - do I believe they made a mistake? No. They found what they found. But if there was a substitute and there was no body present in the apartment, then how did the cadaver odour get there? Is there any other explanation, however implausible? If not then there must have been a body. If there is another explanation(s), then until we can eliminate those possibilities (impossible for us on an internet forum) then they continue to remain as possible alternative hypotheses.
Oops sorry Lady Heather I missed your post. I agree that a other possibilities that have not been eliminated cannot be disregarded.

Nina, I am posting a link to McCann Exposure Nigel Nessling re. cadaver dogs and cadaverine. Some really interesting questions and answers there which I am sure you have read already, but excellent so deserves to be read again.

http://mccannexposure.wordpress.com/2009/09/15/dead-or-alive/
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Re: FACT FILE

Post by Snifferdog on 22.05.12 12:23

@jd wrote:Not on an open public forum. What I know is nothing spectacular and just the fact that Maddie did exist and did go on holiday
I agree that she did exist but would your friends know if she definitely did go with them on holiday? I don't think they can be sure unless they actually saw them getting into the plane with Madeleine.
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A ludicrous theory

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.05.12 12:26

@Snifferdog wrote:jd...I should like to read why you regard the planting of cadaverine and blood by the McCanns as ludicrous...
We all accept here that in order for the dogs' alerts to human cadaverine to be usable in a court of law, there must be corroborating evidence, usually forensic, sometimes circumstantial.

Leaving that issue on one side, let's see if we can despatch your idea that the McCanns (or anyone else for that matter) 'planted' human cadaverine and blood at locations associated with the McCanns. It has been seriously suggested by some that the Portuguese planted this evidence.

Firstly, where could the McCanns have got the cadaverine from?

Second, would that be in liquid or solid form?

Third, what kind of container could they have brought it in?

Fourth, are you suggesting they brought it from England?

Fifth, why did they 'choose' to spread the cadaverine scent at or on the following specific locations:

1. Veranda of flat 5A

2. Join between wall and floor under the window of living room

3. Near the wardrobe in the master bedroom

4. Around the bushes in the garden

5 & 6. On two of Dr Kate McCann's clothes

7. On a child's red T-shirt

8. On Cuddle Cat

9. In the wheel-well of the boot of the hired Renault Scenic

10. On the car key of the hired Renault Scenic.

Sixth, how did the McCanns manage to plant blood underneath a floor tile in the apartment, causing the Portuguese police to have to lift the tile?

IF we can have a comprehensive and credible explanation of how the McCanns (or anyone else) could possibly have 'planted' human corpse scent and blood in all these locations, then kindly provide it. Contrary to your assertion in an earlier post, various theories can be and are debated here, it's just that mostly, if people come up with a theory or hypothesis, they provide at least a minumum level of support for it.

There is no support for your theory yet, and if you can't provide any, you may wish to consider abandoning it and moving on to more credible expl\nantions for events associated with Madeleine's disappearance.

[NOTE: I should just point out for the record that if you look at page 249 of Dr Kate McCann's book 'madeleine', the McCanns' explanation for the dogs' alerts in 10 places is that Martin Grime deliberately or recklessly directed his dogs to certain spots and caused them to come up with false alerts. As Dr Gerald McCann said on another occasion, this is because Dr McCann believes that these cadaver dogs are, quote, 'incredibly unreliable'. In other words, either Grime didn't know what he was doing because he is useless, or he deliberately directed the dogs to bark in certain places. To quote Dr Kate McCann on page 250 of her book:

QUOTE

"...in an underground garage, where eight or so cars were parked, including our rented Renault Scenic, it was hard to miss [our car]: the windows were plastered with pictures of Madeleine. In medicine we would call this an 'unblinded' study, one that is susceptible to bias. One of the dogs ran straight past our car, nose in the air, heading towards the next vehicle. The handler stopped next to the Renault and called the dog. It obeyed, returning to him, but then ran off again. Staying by the car, PC Grime instructed the dog to come back several times and directed it to certain parts of the vehicle, before it eventually supplied an alert by barking. Each time a dog gave a signal, Ricardo [Paiva] would pause the video...He woud stare at me intently and ask me to explain this...I said I couldn't explain it, but neither could he. I remember feeling such disdain for Ricardo at this point. 'What was he doing?', I thought. Just following orders? Under my breath, I found myself whispering, 'F***ing tosser, f***ing tosser...'. This man did not deserve my respect..."

UNQUOTE

Let no-one at Carter-Ruck, from Senior Partner Adam Tudor down to the humblest clerk who combs this forum for potential libels, ever accuse me of not giving the McCanns' side of the story]

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by jd on 22.05.12 12:28

jd you have just added a post whilst I was writing this and I notice you say 'they were there primarily on business' - what business? I thought this was a family holiday?

From research I believe they were there primarily on business, PFI for a Leicestershire hospital would be the most likely and makes the most sense of everything, or some scientific research project they were planning with rich backers. As well as medics there were wealthy people there (and one who helped them in the initial stage John Geraghty, also from Leicester) and if you research the rich, they are very very interested in investing into medical scientific projects. Tycoons and Medical is a popular combination in their worlds. Richard Branson for example, opened his Virgin Stem Cell Bank in February 2007. Gordon Brown was very big supporter of the same during his term in office

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by Snifferdog on 22.05.12 14:38

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Snifferdog wrote:jd...I should like to read why you regard the planting of cadaverine and blood by the McCanns as ludicrous...
We all accept here that in order for the dogs' alerts to human cadaverine to be usable in a court of law, there must be corroborating evidence, usually forensic, sometimes circumstantial.

Leaving that issue on one side, let's see if we can despatch your idea that the McCanns (or anyone else for that matter) 'planted' human cadaverine and blood at locations associated with the McCanns. It has been seriously suggested by some that the Portuguese planted this evidence. Thank you for this Tony. I shall answer them as well as best I can as I see that question 4 seems to be directed at me.

Firstly, where could the McCanns have got the cadaverine from?

It could be quite feasible for them to have access to this from their workplace.

Second, would that be in liquid or solid form?

Hospitals store blood for use in transfusions, stored in a pint sized sealed plastic bag. In hospitals diseased organs are removed, sometimes for autopsy purposes. Link on human decomposition supplied below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition

Third, what kind of container could they have brought it in?

Vacuum packed plastic bag.

Fourth, are you suggesting they brought it from England?

Yes, unless they had a contact in Portugal that was able to obtain blood and human remains, or were able, whilst in PDL to enter a hospital under their professional capacity.

Fifth, why did they 'choose' to spread the cadaverine scent at or on the following specific locations:

1. Veranda of flat 5A

2. Join between wall and floor under the window of living room

3. Near the wardrobe in the master bedroom

4. Around the bushes in the garden

5 & 6. On two of Dr Kate McCann's clothes

7. On a child's red T-shirt

8. On Cuddle Cat

9. In the wheel-well of the boot of the hired Renault Scenic

10. On the car key of the hired Renault Scenic.

Some of these may or may not have been accidental contamination, some deliberate in order to create the suspicion in the public's mind fueled by articles in the press and elsewhere, that they may have had a hand in the death of their daughter, but knowing that it could never be proven, no matching Madeleine DNA has been found to my knowledge. This would create an ideal environment for many lucrative libel actions.

Sixth, how did the McCanns manage to plant blood underneath a floor tile in the apartment, causing the Portuguese police to have to lift the tile?

If a pint of blood is poured/thrown on a tiled floor some of it is bound to creep under the tiles and settle there.

IF we can have a comprehensive and credible explanation of how the McCanns (or anyone else) could possibly have 'planted' human corpse scent and blood in all these locations, then kindly provide it. Contrary to your assertion in an earlier post, various theories can be and are debated here, it's just that mostly, if people come up with a theory or hypothesis, they provide at least a minumum level of support for it.

All it takes is to lay for a time the contaminant, where one would like to leave cadaverine.
Yes, I have noticed that there was no support for my theory, although I had tried to get members interested in a debate. It was only after I decided to abandon posting here that some interest was shown. I am interested to get to the bottom of this case as is anybody else. I have not posted on other forums. In fact forums are a completely new experience to me, so perhaps I don't know forum protocol?


There is no support for your theory yet, and if you can't provide any, you may wish to consider abandoning it and moving on to more credible expl\nantions for events associated with Madeleine's disappearance.

I am quite happy to stick to my theory till it is disproven.

[NOTE: I should just point out for the record that if you look at page 249 of Dr Kate McCann's book 'madeleine', the McCanns' explanation for the dogs' alerts in 10 places is that Martin Grime deliberately or recklessly directed his dogs to certain spots and caused them to come up with false alerts. As Dr Gerald McCann said on another occasion, this is because Dr McCann believes that these cadaver dogs are, quote, 'incredibly unreliable'. In other words, either Grime didn't know what he was doing because he is useless, or he deliberately directed the dogs to bark in certain places. To quote Dr Kate McCann on page 250 of her book:

QUOTE

"...in an underground garage, where eight or so cars were parked, including our rented Renault Scenic, it was hard to miss [our car]: the windows were plastered with pictures of Madeleine. In medicine we would call this an 'unblinded' study, one that is susceptible to bias. One of the dogs ran straight past our car, nose in the air, heading towards the next vehicle. The handler stopped next to the Renault and called the dog. It obeyed, returning to him, but then ran off again. Staying by the car, PC Grime instructed the dog to come back several times and directed it to certain parts of the vehicle, before it eventually supplied an alert by barking. Each time a dog gave a signal, Ricardo [Paiva] would pause the video...He woud stare at me intently and ask me to explain this...I said I couldn't explain it, but neither could he. I remember feeling such disdain for Ricardo at this point. 'What was he doing?', I thought. Just following orders? Under my breath, I found myself whispering, 'F***ing tosser, f***ing tosser...'. This man did not deserve my respect..."

UNQUOTE

Kate has contradicted herself on many occasions, which can be proven by reading her many press and other statements, I think this speaks for itself. I don't watch U Tube as I have a Vodacom 3G connection, and it can work out to be very costly. I do not have TV either so have missed any possible any footage shown there.

Let no-one at Carter-Ruck, from Senior Partner Adam Tudor down to the humblest clerk who combs this forum for potential libels, ever accuse me of not giving the McCanns' side of the story]

I would like to add that my supplied scenarios are not facts, they are my suppositions.
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Re: FACT FILE

Post by tigger on 22.05.12 14:48

I'm going for Occam's razor.
Pre- 3/5/07 there was a family with three children, one of which was quite a handful and had been so since she was born.
There was little bonding with the twins - family and parents' evidence - later retracted as didn't fit the public's image of the child.
The family were in financial straits - according to their own family who helped them out financially. Both parents worked, one full time, one part time.
The parents - by their own evidence and their general behaviour and recollection of the missing child, did not appear to be overly concerned about children's safety. They seemed to put their own pleasure before that of their offspring.

Post 3/5/07 there was a family with two children, a girl and a boy. There was no need to work as money streamed in from all directions after they had asked for it in order to find their firstborn child. There was enough money to employ family members full time.
The twins were taken care off mainly by family and friends - diary reveals in June that 'we had to pick up the twins ourselves from the creche'.
The parents resumed or instigated an entirely new lifestyle of jetting off to foreign destinations, leaving the twins behind, in order to promote a Fund created to find the firstborn. A Fund which was not at all necessary to find the child, as the whole world was looking for her.

The abduction theory proposed by the parents was shown to be impossible. Many witnesses and in particular their friends gave conflicting statements - cadaver odour was found and it was concluded that the child died - sometime between arriving at OC and the 3rd of May.

Family , friends and other witness statements are all in conflict with each other. Therefore it is better to concentrate on the facts :
Before 3/5/07 , there was a girl in existence: MBMcC.
Post 3/5/07 nothing has been seen or heard of her, whereas evidence that a cadaver was present in the apartment and corroborating evidence of movement of said cadaver post 3/5/07 is available.

Photographs of the child released by parents and family are of an unusual variety - in some she is doubtlessly beautiful, in others merely ordinary and in many she does not look 100% healthy. The photograph used to find her was out of date and highly unlikely to aid recognition of the child by a stranger.
The medical records were withheld.
Therefore the first actions the parents took were not helpful in finding the child. The parents personally never searched for the child.

To summarise, a child disappeared about whose health and appearance little of real significance is known.
Their alibi and evidence from close associates is highly contradictory and rests on a number of changed statements which still do not agree with each other.
Her parents did not search for her or provide up to date visual material. Her medical records were not provided.
The parents are guilty of negligence in leaving very young children unsupervised and in a vulnerable situation.
The parents took up a lifestyle of international - high profile celebrities almost immediately, leaving their remaining children to be cared for by others.

prisoner








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Re: FACT FILE

Post by Snifferdog on 22.05.12 15:02

@tigger wrote:I'm going for Occam's razor.
Pre- 3/5/07 there was a family with three children, one of which was quite a handful and had been so since she was born.
There was little bonding with the twins - family and parents' evidence - later retracted as didn't fit the public's image of the child.
The family were in financial straits - according to their own family who helped them out financially. Both parents worked, one full time, one part time.
The parents - by their own evidence and their general behaviour and recollection of the missing child, did not appear to be overly concerned about children's safety. They seemed to put their own pleasure before that of their offspring.

Post 3/5/07 there was a family with two children, a girl and a boy. There was no need to work as money streamed in from all directions after they had asked for it in order to find their firstborn child. There was enough money to employ family members full time.
The twins were taken care off mainly by family and friends - diary reveals in June that 'we had to pick up the twins ourselves from the creche'.
The parents resumed or instigated an entirely new lifestyle of jetting off to foreign destinations, leaving the twins behind, in order to promote a Fund created to find the firstborn. A Fund which was not at all necessary to find the child, as the whole world was looking for her.

The abduction theory proposed by the parents was shown to be impossible. Many witnesses and in particular their friends gave conflicting statements - cadaver odour was found and it was concluded that the child died - sometime between arriving at OC and the 3rd of May.

Family , friends and other witness statements are all in conflict with each other. Therefore it is better to concentrate on the facts :
Before 3/5/07 , there was a girl in existence: MBMcC.
Post 3/5/07 nothing has been seen or heard of her, whereas evidence that a cadaver was present in the apartment and corroborating evidence of movement of said cadaver post 3/5/07 is available.

Photographs of the child released by parents and family are of an unusual variety - in some she is doubtlessly beautiful, in others merely ordinary and in many she does not look 100% healthy. The photograph used to find her was out of date and highly unlikely to aid recognition of the child by a stranger.
The medical records were withheld.
Therefore the first actions the parents took were not helpful in finding the child. The parents personally never searched for the child.

To summarise, a child disappeared about whose health and appearance little of real significance is known.
The last person to see the child was her father.
Their alibi and evidence from close associates is highly contradictory and rests on a number of changed statements which still do not agree with each other.
Her parents did not search for her or provide up to date visual material. Her medical records were not provided.
The parents are guilty of negligence in leaving very young children unsupervised and in a vulnerable situation.
The parents took up a lifestyle of international - high profile celebrities almost immediately, leaving their remaining children to be cared for by others.










Great summary Tigger! The only one I think that does not belong there I think is that Gerry was the last one to see Madeleine, as is based on their (McCanns et al) words only
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Re: FACT FILE

Post by tigger on 22.05.12 15:07

I've just taken that out, as I had reservations on that score too - all the rest is objective.

If you're quick you can delete your post!

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by Nina on 22.05.12 15:17

@Snifferdog wrote:
@Lady-Heather wrote:Many people appear to consider the substitute theory to be out of the question, and that it's more likely that the parents killed her or allowed her to die and then hide the body. And then, that they were able to go out running/meeting the pope/various day trips like nothing had happened. I personally find the latter to be the least plausible, although not impossible by any means.

I am 99% convinced that this a hoax. My suspicions starting as far back as the 'Donegal' thread started by Daisy (thank you Daisy). In that thread there is a reference to a website gives support to the Irish roots story invented by (sorry, reported on) and elaborated on in the Irish & national press. Through a bit of digging and research I came to the conclusion that the site was almost certainly a fake, which then inspired me to look for other signs of make-believe and deception. There’s a lot of it out there. The initial photos that were given out on the night of the 3/4th, that appeared to have been pre-prepared (even the PJ didn’t buy that one). The crèche sheets, the photoshopping, the proximity of the press and others involved in media production.

The cadaver dogs - do I believe they made a mistake? No. They found what they found. But if there was a substitute and there was no body present in the apartment, then how did the cadaver odour get there? Is there any other explanation, however implausible? If not then there must have been a body. If there is another explanation(s), then until we can eliminate those possibilities (impossible for us on an internet forum) then they continue to remain as possible alternative hypotheses.
Oops sorry Lady Heather I missed your post. I agree that a other possibilities that have not been eliminated cannot be disregarded.

Nina, I am posting a link to McCann Exposure Nigel Nessling re. cadaver dogs and cadaverine. Some really interesting questions and answers there which I am sure you have read already, but excellent so deserves to be read again.

http://mccannexposure.wordpress.com/2009/09/15/dead-or-alive/
Thank you Snifferdog. No I hadn't read that before nor seen the video as only just able to view videos. What brilliant working dogs they are and Keela's little tail going when she freezes.
These are all facts to support that there was a cadaver in apartment 5A.
What I did think when the property of RM and his mother was searched was how very surprising that there were no alerts there as RM's father had passed away, I'm not saying that he died there but I would have thought there might have been some contamination from that time on clothing when he was given his last hug.

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by friedtomatoes on 22.05.12 17:14

@Snifferdog wrote:
@jd wrote:Not on an open public forum. What I know is nothing spectacular and just the fact that Maddie did exist and did go on holiday
I agree that she did exist but would your friends know if she definitely did go with them on holiday? I don't think they can be sure unless they actually saw them getting into the plane with Madeleine.
There is footage of the group boarding the plane and also the bus video. There was no other holiday with this group with Madeleine aged three, nearly four and the other children age two and a bit.

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by friedtomatoes on 22.05.12 17:22

rainbow/tigger, by saying its bonkers to think there was a previous pdl holiday for which there is no evidence and that she died then and was stored somewhere to be disposed of on a subsequent pdl holiday does not mean i think the abduction story is true. For starters her extended family would wonder where she was...

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by Snifferdog on 22.05.12 17:31

I removed this message as it should have been pmd
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Re: FACT FILE

Post by tigger on 22.05.12 19:37

@friedtomatoes wrote:rainbow/tigger, by saying its bonkers to think there was a previous pdl holiday for which there is no evidence and that she died then and was stored somewhere to be disposed of on a subsequent pdl holiday does not mean i think the abduction story is true. For starters her extended family would wonder where she was...

The point was just that it is a useful exercise to put all possibilities (apart from alien abduction) in one place and compare them. E.g. the one you mention is not impossible, but the death would have had to take place in 5a. Therefore they would have had to have access to that apartment at that time.
Personally, I'm leaning to them having been in PdL in 2006 - JT had been in Portugal three or four times, Gerry had been several times, it's very likely they knew Murat, they were very keen for others to know that they didn't even know where the church was - right next to Chaplins where they'd been in the week of 29/4 - 3/5.
A nasty thought but if one would be planning such a deed, surely you'd not go to a place you didn't know at all? The pool photo certainly argues for an earlier visit - late summer 2006. It could just have been a weekend trip. It would also give time for the photographs to be taken at the Burgau apartment.
I certainly entertain that possibility.

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by Guest on 22.05.12 19:40

@tigger wrote:
@friedtomatoes wrote:rainbow/tigger, by saying its bonkers to think there was a previous pdl holiday for which there is no evidence and that she died then and was stored somewhere to be disposed of on a subsequent pdl holiday does not mean i think the abduction story is true. For starters her extended family would wonder where she was...

The point was just that it is a useful exercise to put all possibilities (apart from alien abduction) in one place and compare them. E.g. the one you mention is not impossible, but the death would have had to take place in 5a. Therefore they would have had to have access to that apartment at that time.
Personally, I'm leaning to them having been in PdL in 2006 - JT had been in Portugal three or four times, Gerry had been several times, it's very likely they knew Murat, they were very keen for others to know that they didn't even know where the church was - right next to Chaplins where they'd been in the week of 29/4 - 3/5.
A nasty thought but if one would be planning such a deed, surely you'd not go to a place you didn't know at all? The pool photo certainly argues for an earlier visit - late summer 2006. It could just have been a weekend trip. It would also give time for the photographs to be taken at the Burgau apartment.
I certainly entertain that possibility.

Tigger, have you got a link for GM being in Portugal three or four times. I have only read he has been once, on a golfing trip, and I don't think it was PDL IIRC.
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Re: FACT FILE

Post by Guest on 22.05.12 19:44

candyfloss wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@friedtomatoes wrote:rainbow/tigger, by saying its bonkers to think there was a previous pdl holiday for which there is no evidence and that she died then and was stored somewhere to be disposed of on a subsequent pdl holiday does not mean i think the abduction story is true. For starters her extended family would wonder where she was...

The point was just that it is a useful exercise to put all possibilities (apart from alien abduction) in one place and compare them. E.g. the one you mention is not impossible, but the death would have had to take place in 5a. Therefore they would have had to have access to that apartment at that time.
Personally, I'm leaning to them having been in PdL in 2006 - JT had been in Portugal three or four times, Gerry had been several times, it's very likely they knew Murat, they were very keen for others to know that they didn't even know where the church was - right next to Chaplins where they'd been in the week of 29/4 - 3/5.
A nasty thought but if one would be planning such a deed, surely you'd not go to a place you didn't know at all? The pool photo certainly argues for an earlier visit - late summer 2006. It could just have been a weekend trip. It would also give time for the photographs to be taken at the Burgau apartment.
I certainly entertain that possibility.

Tigger, have you got a link for GM being in Portugal three or four times. I have only read he has been once, on a golfing trip, and I don't think it was PDL IIRC.

It's ok, just googled and found this.......

So with super sleuth hat on, in Gerry McCann's Witness Statement (see here) taken in the presence of an interpreter, Natália Carvalho Ferreira de Almeida in 2007, it says 'When asked, he said that he had already been to Portugal in 1994. He stayed in an apartment on the outskirts of Albufeira. He has only returned to Portugal on this occasion'


but on page 42 of her book Madeleine, Kate says:

"I'd never been to Portugal, although Gerry had been there on a couple of golfing trips a few years before"

http://www.cosmicchronicle.com/2011/05/something-fishy-madeleine-mccann-and.html


Hmm, so in his witness statement, which I had read, and that is what I remembered, he said just the once, yet in Kates book she says on a couple of golfing trips. Hmmm again.

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by tigger on 22.05.12 19:50

candyfloss wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@friedtomatoes wrote:rainbow/tigger, by saying its bonkers to think there was a previous pdl holiday for which there is no evidence and that she died then and was stored somewhere to be disposed of on a subsequent pdl holiday does not mean i think the abduction story is true. For starters her extended family would wonder where she was...

The point was just that it is a useful exercise to put all possibilities (apart from alien abduction) in one place and compare them. E.g. the one you mention is not impossible, but the death would have had to take place in 5a. Therefore they would have had to have access to that apartment at that time.
Personally, I'm leaning to them having been in PdL in 2006 - JT had been in Portugal three or four times, [b]Gerry had been several times, it's very likely they knew Murat, they were very keen for others to know that they didn't even know where the church was - right next to Chaplins where they'd been in the week of 29/4 - 3/5.
A nasty thought but if one would be planning such a deed, surely you'd not go to a place you didn't know at all? The pool photo certainly argues for an earlier visit - late summer 2006. It could just have been a weekend trip. It would also give time for the photographs to be taken at the Burgau apartment.
I certainly entertain that possibility.

Tigger, have you got a link for GM being in Portugal three or four times. I have only read he has been once, on a golfing trip, and I don't think it was PDL IIRC.

It's JT who said she'd been in Portugal three or four times - I think it's in the RI. (hers is very long so hard to pinpoint quickly) Gerry - I understood from the book - had been for golfing weekends a few times - I may be wrong and it could just be once.
I was just making the point that it could have been PdL.

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by friedtomatoes on 22.05.12 19:51

Tigger so you think its possible they had a boliday in PDL in 2006 and Maddie died then?

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by Guest on 22.05.12 19:52

It's ok tigger, I found this and just posted you must have missed it......


It's ok, just googled and found this.......

So with super sleuth hat on, in Gerry McCann's Witness Statement (see here) taken in the presence of an interpreter, Natália Carvalho Ferreira de Almeida in 2007, it says 'When asked, he said that he had already been to Portugal in 1994. He stayed in an apartment on the outskirts of Albufeira. He has only returned to Portugal on this occasion'


but on page 42 of her book Madeleine, Kate says:

"I'd never been to Portugal, although Gerry had been there on a couple of golfing trips a few years before"

http://www.cosmicchronicle.com/2011/05/something-fishy-madeleine-mccann-and.html


Hmmm, so in his witness statement, which I had read, and that is what I remembered, he said just the once, yet in Kates book she says on a couple of golfing trips. Hmmm again.
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Re: FACT FILE

Post by tigger on 22.05.12 20:00

@friedtomatoes wrote:Tigger so you think its possible they had a boliday in PDL in 2006 and Maddie died then?

Yes - it's possible but highly improbable. But at the moment it does make a lot of sense if the whole family - or perhaps just Gerry and Madeleine? were in PdL in 2006, hence the pool photo with Amelie pasted in to bring the date up to 2007.
I like the idea because it gives time and opportunity re Burgau - which is a big question mark, the two photos possibly taken there, both very questionable photographs. It also gives an opportunity for meeting Murat. (You'd have to look at the Burgau topic)

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by tigger on 22.05.12 20:04

candyfloss wrote:It's ok tigger, I found this and just posted you must have missed it......


It's ok, just googled and found this.......

So with super sleuth hat on, in Gerry McCann's Witness Statement (see here) taken in the presence of an interpreter, Natália Carvalho Ferreira de Almeida in 2007, it says 'When asked, he said that he had already been to Portugal in 1994. He stayed in an apartment on the outskirts of Albufeira. He has only returned to Portugal on this occasion'


but on page 42 of her book Madeleine, Kate says:

"I'd never been to Portugal, although Gerry had been there on a couple of golfing trips a few years before"

http://www.cosmicchronicle.com/2011/05/something-fishy-madeleine-mccann-and.html


Hmmm, so in his witness statement, which I had read, and that is what I remembered, he said just the once, yet in Kates book she says on a couple of golfing trips. Hmmm again.

Nice! That supports my idea - there are three or four golf courses there - hmmm indeed, and Gerry went off on his own.

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Re: FACT FILE

Post by friedtomatoes on 22.05.12 20:10

@tigger wrote:
@friedtomatoes wrote:Tigger so you think its possible they had a boliday in PDL in 2006 and Maddie died then?

Yes - it's possible but highly improbable. But at the moment it does make a lot of sense if the whole family - or perhaps just Gerry and Madeleine? were in PdL in 2006, hence the pool photo with Amelie pasted in to bring the date up to 2007.
I like the idea because it gives time and opportunity re Burgau - which is a big question mark, the two photos possibly taken there, both very questionable photographs. It also gives an opportunity for meeting Murat. (You'd have to look at the Burgau topic)
You would thenhave to think all photos of their april holiday to donegal in 2007 were fake, all friends and relatives lying they took such a holiday, any other references written or spoken about madeleine past summer 2006 are lies,sorry, its impossible imo and doesnt merit discussion otherwise you are falling into gerrys hands, confusion is good and not forgetting the bus and plane boarding video from 2007, how many things can you doubt when the evidence is before you? certainly has never got anyone anywhere in the past some of these way out theories, just waste your time and frustrate you and confuse you even more, JMHO, dont let yourself be used, catch up tomorrow

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