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The Kipper and the Corpse

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by tigger on 16.05.12 16:39

candyfloss wrote:
@jd wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
@jd wrote:It was done by gerry mccann alone in the Ocean Club reception...Then it was done a 2nd time later in the mccann apartment which both gerry and kate mccann were synchronous

if it was a spur of the moment distraction by gerry mccann alone in the reception, then how would kate know what to do later in the bedroom?

Follow the leader?

There would be a delay with kate while her brain learns what gerry was doing

How do you know there wasn't a split second delay?

I think Gerry simply instructed her - did a silly thing, wasn't understood - do it again makes it look as if this is our way of dealing with the calamity. Kate also said on the phone that Gerry was 'roaring like a bull'. Bulls seem to figure in some Masonic rituals. Also a very strange thing to say. So imo they were just trying to play down the ritual.
As a distraction technique they could just have talked to the guys - did they think the Portuguese would understand this over the top performance? They made sounds like crying but there were no tears.
Or is there a paralell in the JonBenet Ramsey case - because some of their MO seems to have been modelled on that.

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by Guest on 16.05.12 16:42

@jd wrote:I don't. But from what I seen from the reconstruction and learnt, they were in sync with each other and kate knew what to do. Even if she was just following, why when seeing her husband suddenly do this weird act did she immediately follow? I think that if it was a spur of the moment thing which she didn't know about, she would have just stood and watched perplexed at what he was doing....not joining him immediately and doing the exact same thing jimo

Just for arguments sake, and speaking hypothetically, say if you suddenly walked into a room and suddenly realised something was there that shouldn't be there, let's say a camera on the bed it could be anything, and you wanted to hide it quickly from prying eyes, isn't it feasable that you would suddenly fall on it, especially on a bed. Why not crumple on the floor again?
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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by david_uk on 16.05.12 16:58

candyfloss wrote:
@jd wrote:I don't. But from what I seen from the reconstruction and learnt, they were in sync with each other and kate knew what to do. Even if she was just following, why when seeing her husband suddenly do this weird act did she immediately follow? I think that if it was a spur of the moment thing which she didn't know about, she would have just stood and watched perplexed at what he was doing....not joining him immediately and doing the exact same thing jimo

Just for arguments sake, and speaking hypothetically, say if you suddenly walked into a room and suddenly realised something was there that shouldn't be there, let's say a camera on the bed it could be anything, and you wanted to hide it quickly from prying eyes, isn't it feasable that you would suddenly fall on it, especially on a bed. Why not crumple on the floor again?

I will be checking later at what time if at all every room of the apartment was checked in those first 24hrs.

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by jd on 16.05.12 16:58

candyfloss wrote:
@jd wrote:I don't. But from what I seen from the reconstruction and learnt, they were in sync with each other and kate knew what to do. Even if she was just following, why when seeing her husband suddenly do this weird act did she immediately follow? I think that if it was a spur of the moment thing which she didn't know about, she would have just stood and watched perplexed at what he was doing....not joining him immediately and doing the exact same thing jimo

Just for arguments sake, and speaking hypothetically, say if you suddenly walked into a room and suddenly realised something was there that shouldn't be there, let's say a camera on the bed it could be anything, and you wanted to hide it quickly from prying eyes, isn't it feasable that you would suddenly fall on it, especially on a bed. Why not crumple on the floor again?

Depends on how close I was to the bed and camera. I would probably try to deflect the prying eyes by talking about something else which would make them look at me rather than the bed and try to move them into a different direction (not physically but off their own accord), preferably out of the room. But what were the mccanns trying to hide in the reception and their bedroom? this is what I do not understand

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by Ribisl on 16.05.12 16:59

candyfloss wrote:
@jd wrote:I don't. But from what I seen from the reconstruction and learnt, they were in sync with each other and kate knew what to do. Even if she was just following, why when seeing her husband suddenly do this weird act did she immediately follow? I think that if it was a spur of the moment thing which she didn't know about, she would have just stood and watched perplexed at what he was doing....not joining him immediately and doing the exact same thing jimo

Just for arguments sake, and speaking hypothetically, say if you suddenly walked into a room and suddenly realised something was there that shouldn't be there, let's say a camera on the bed it could be anything, and you wanted to hide it quickly from prying eyes, isn't it feasable that you would suddenly fall on it, especially on a bed. Why not crumple on the floor again?

And what piece of incriminating evidence do you suppose could have been on the reception floor for Gerry to throw himself upon it in the manner of a crowd-raising touchdown? winkwink

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by jd on 16.05.12 17:01

@david_uk wrote: I will be checking later at what time if at all every room of the apartment was checked in those first 24hrs.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm

From: Jose Maria Batista Roque

Then, while his colleague remained in the hall, and the others were in the living room, the witness went through the entire apartment He opened all the cupboards in the bedrooms, living room and kitchen and checked under the beds and inside the washing machine. He did not see the fridge.

During the search he did not find anything strange apart from the bedclothes on Madeleine's bed, which were too tidy, it appeared that she had been picked up from or had left the bed with great care. There was a mark on the sheet that appeared to be made by a child's body

After the search, he noticed a situation that seemed unusual to him, when at a determined moment, the girl's parents kneeled down on the floor of their bedroom and placed their heads on the bed, crying. He did not notice any comments or expression from them, just crying. He says that at the main reception the father also knelt down, placing his head on the floor and crying. He did not hear the father say anything.
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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by Hummingbird on 16.05.12 17:08

If there was something he was trying to distract from in reception it could have been a printer that was just finishing printing out some 'missing' posters!!

Was there anyone else there in reception at the time of this strange event?


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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by Hummingbird on 16.05.12 17:13

Oh and also what about creche records perhaps he was trying to distract from those, I believe the creche area was near to reception so maybe the records were kept there! Just another thought!

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by tigger on 16.05.12 17:13

All this was just the preliminary search for the child. Nothing else, just the child. I doubt that the GNR have authority to impound anything much in such a situation, unless it was e.g. a fire arm or a knife.
And they'd had all the time in the world to set the stage and control the 'crime scene'. A camera would not have been impounded at that stage in the proceedings. Only possibly the passports, which I believe is what happened.
If they distracted the GNR with their antics for some purpose, a third party would have had to take advantage of that to hide or take something. The way the Tapas behaved that is very unlikely, they didn't seem to have a clue.

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by jd on 16.05.12 17:27

@Hummingbird wrote:If there was something he was trying to distract from in reception it could have been a printer that was just finishing printing out some 'missing' posters!!

Was there anyone else there in reception at the time of this strange event?
Interesting point Hummingbird

@Tigger - Very true, the way the Tapas behaved, they didn't seem to have a clue
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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by Nina on 16.05.12 17:39

I have a notion that the falling to his knees was to cover up dirty trousers, so the falling to his knees would soil what was already soiled.

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by PeterMac on 16.05.12 18:05

@Nina wrote:I have a notion that the falling to his knees was to cover up dirty trousers, so the falling to his knees would soil what was already soiled.
Very interesting. That would fit perfectly with lots of other possibilities.
Thank you

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by jd on 16.05.12 18:06

Yes very interesting observation
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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by friedtomatoes on 16.05.12 18:21

@Nina wrote:I have a notion that the falling to his knees was to cover up dirty trousers, so the falling to his knees would soil what was already soiled.

I thought of hiding the trousers too so the buttons wouldnt show if the smiths had seen him, then I thought in that , and the soiled scenario he would have had best part of an hour to change before police arrived. All very curious. If it was some kind of stain, it would have had to be something different from say, grass, as he searched in the park, that would be normal. Just speculating.

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by Hummingbird on 16.05.12 18:27

@friedtomatoes wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have a notion that the falling to his knees was to cover up dirty trousers, so the falling to his knees would soil what was already soiled.

I thought of hiding the trousers too so the buttons wouldnt show if the smiths had seen him, then I thought in that , and the soiled scenario he would have had best part of an hour to change before police arrived. All very curious. If it was some kind of stain, it would have had to be something different from say, grass, as he searched in the park, that would be normal. Just speculating.

Yes this is a good theory but then surely he had to stand up again so the GNR would have seen the stain, mark etc, he couldn't have removed the mark or changed his trousers whilst in this position!!

I still think he was trying to detract from a printer finishing printing or a photocopier still taking copies perhaps, or the fact that he had just shoved one of the creche records down his trousers LOL big grin

Still doesn't explain why they would then both do this same thing later on!! I have a headache coming on now!!

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by Nina on 16.05.12 18:31

@friedtomatoes wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have a notion that the falling to his knees was to cover up dirty trousers, so the falling to his knees would soil what was already soiled.

I thought of hiding the trousers too so the buttons wouldnt show if the smiths had seen him, then I thought in that , and the soiled scenario he would have had best part of an hour to change before police arrived. All very curious. If it was some kind of stain, it would have had to be something different from say, grass, as he searched in the park, that would be normal. Just speculating.

Yes he would have had time to change if he knew he had a stain/stains on his trousers. If only just noticed then the stain had to be covered with another stain, as the stain was incriminating imo. So he first noticed whatever the stain was as the police arrive and the going down on all fours to draw attention to dirty dusty knees. Then again in the apartment. There was imo some sort of stain on the front of the trousers that Gerry didn't want noticed.

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by friedtomatoes on 16.05.12 18:32

Very funny hummingbird LOL!

Agree about your trousers comment though. ETA Nina good point too.

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by tigger on 16.05.12 18:57

@Hummingbird wrote:
@friedtomatoes wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have a notion that the falling to his knees was to cover up dirty trousers, so the falling to his knees would soil what was already soiled.

I thought of hiding the trousers too so the buttons wouldnt show if the smiths had seen him, then I thought in that , and the soiled scenario he would have had best part of an hour to change before police arrived. All very curious. If it was some kind of stain, it would have had to be something different from say, grass, as he searched in the park, that would be normal. Just speculating.

Yes this is a good theory but then surely he had to stand up again so the GNR would have seen the stain, mark etc, he couldn't have removed the mark or changed his trousers whilst in this position!!

I still think he was trying to detract from a printer finishing printing or a photocopier still taking copies perhaps, or the fact that he had just shoved one of the creche records down his trousers LOL big grin

Still doesn't explain why they would then both do this same thing later on!! I have a headache coming on now!!

Gerry most likely had already changed his trousers. In the (probably earliest) photograph there is a pair of beige trousers lying on the bed. Together with a camera I believe. The next set, probably taken the next day, doesn't show these.
My idea is that he changed into jeans the moment he came back from his walk down PdL. That walk might have been delayed by Wilkins or something else. In any case, he must have been back and changed before the police were called.
I also don't see how throwing yourself on the ground is going to deflect attention from a printer. Besides, why should a printer need to be hidden? It's the lack of the right printer that's an issue. The reception at the OC was surely entitled to have any number of printers to their name?
Even if he had stains on his trousers, these could just be from searching, crawling under bushes.
I believe that JT or/and others described what Gerry was wearing and I think they said jeans.

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by Nina on 16.05.12 19:10

@tigger wrote:
@Hummingbird wrote:
@friedtomatoes wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have a notion that the falling to his knees was to cover up dirty trousers, so the falling to his knees would soil what was already soiled.

I thought of hiding the trousers too so the buttons wouldnt show if the smiths had seen him, then I thought in that , and the soiled scenario he would have had best part of an hour to change before police arrived. All very curious. If it was some kind of stain, it would have had to be something different from say, grass, as he searched in the park, that would be normal. Just speculating.

Yes this is a good theory but then surely he had to stand up again so the GNR would have seen the stain, mark etc, he couldn't have removed the mark or changed his trousers whilst in this position!!

I still think he was trying to detract from a printer finishing printing or a photocopier still taking copies perhaps, or the fact that he had just shoved one of the creche records down his trousers LOL big grin

Still doesn't explain why they would then both do this same thing later on!! I have a headache coming on now!!

Gerry most likely had already changed his trousers. In the (probably earliest) photograph there is a pair of beige trousers lying on the bed. Together with a camera I believe. The next set, probably taken the next day, doesn't show these.
My idea is that he changed into jeans the moment he came back from his walk down PdL. That walk might have been delayed by Wilkins or something else. In any case, he must have been back and changed before the police were called.
I also don't see how throwing yourself on the ground is going to deflect attention from a printer. Besides, why should a printer need to be hidden? It's the lack of the right printer that's an issue. The reception at the OC was surely entitled to have any number of printers to their name?
Even if he had stains on his trousers, these could just be from searching, crawling under bushes.
I believe that JT or/and others described what Gerry was wearing and I think they said jeans.
Tigger, if I was washing hubby's shirt and he had gravy, muck, ink, lead pencil on it I would just spray it and bung it in the washer but there are some stains that would make me thinking and what and catfight catfight I just think that these all fours positions were to hide something.

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by Guest on 16.05.12 19:22

According to Kate's statement, where she talks about the abductor, she says he had long hair and was wearing jeans. Now the only person she could have got this from was Jane and yet it is totally different to what JT describes in her statement. Bit off topic, but it reminded me (the jeans that is) as I had read it this morning.
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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by Guest on 16.05.12 23:14

I go with JD that it was probably asking a question of the police. Both time it was in front of police officers and I believe was meant as a distress signal for help for those in the know that might recognise such a signal. To those that aren't in the know it just looked like a bizarre act that they didn't understand.

That seems the best fit to me.
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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by sweetex on 16.05.12 23:34

I agree with some sort of distraction, but can not really think what - especially at reception. That is really strange. I mean really if someone still had to remove the body they would definitely not done it via reception.

I wonder if Maddie was in that blue bag in the cupboard in the bedroom. Then again the Smith sighting can't be credible. Unless blood stained towels, clothes or sheets was somewhere in the bedroom and they had to distract the GNR officer.

In reception it could have been maybe to win some time. While Kate or whoever was doing something in the apartment? Keep the GNR officer at reception to prevent him from going to the apartment.

I find all of this strange though. I can imagine losing a child that someone can roar like a bull, but heads down kneeling in that position is a bit strange.

eta: It could be a signal for someone else to do something? "As soon as we fall down and start roaring ... you have to make sure the towel is hidden". LOL not a good example, but maybe some kind of signal.
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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by tigger on 17.05.12 6:35

@sweetex wrote:I agree with some sort of distraction, but can not really think what - especially at reception. That is really strange. I mean really if someone still had to remove the body they would definitely not done it via reception.

I wonder if Maddie was in that blue bag in the cupboard in the bedroom. Then again the Smith sighting can't be credible. Unless blood stained towels, clothes or sheets was somewhere in the bedroom and they had to distract the GNR officer.

In reception it could have been maybe to win some time. While Kate or whoever was doing something in the apartment? Keep the GNR officer at reception to prevent him from going to the apartment.

I find all of this strange though. I can imagine losing a child that someone can roar like a bull, but heads down kneeling in that position is a bit strange.

eta: It could be a signal for someone else to do something? "As soon as we fall down and start roaring ... you have to make sure the towel is hidden". LOL not a good example, but maybe some kind of signal.

I was somewhat upset at the suggestion that the corpse of Maddie was being tossed around the place whilst comical ways of diverting the GNR were being executed. Imo the body was long gone, at the latest the previous day. They'd had plenty of time to set the stage and they were in control of the crime scene.

I think it's just Gerry. Perhaps he hadn't been in the Mason's long and was only entitled to use a few 'cries for help' which is what that ritual comes under.
Another one is: 'Is there no help for the widow's son?' But he'd have to say that in Portuguese. A lot of police is 'on the square' in the UK.
Gerry is the kind of person who will take what he can get. If he was given privileges then he would use those, appropriate or not. Look at the freebies OC supplied, free food and wine and they went through 14 bottles (there's a topic on it). Look at how he managed the press - this is the original 'give him a finger and he'll take an arm' man.
They put collection boxes all over OC - they approached Beckham, other celebrities and so on.
That whole performance was just to show 'I'm a clever boy, we set the scene, call the police and when they come, they'll know I'm one of them and the whole thing is over and done.'
On the phone he kept saying to the family 'It's a disaster, a disaster.' Quite.
The timing was thrown out by Jeremy Wilkins, the shutters wouldn't open from outside, instead of seeing one or two passers-by to supply the police with an independent sighting of an abductor, he was surrounded by a whole family of nine. (could have been Amelie he carried).
Then the GNR didn't know what he was doing and Mrs. Fenn might have been watching.

Maddie can never have died that evening or her body moved that evening imo. I keep saying that they would not know if the dogs would come that night. They would also not know how much time they would have to themselves. Unlikely to be unobserved as from the moment the police arrived.

The body would have to be found. The flat cleaned, the plan made, the scene set, the Tapas instructed a hiding place for the body found. ( imo it was taken away a few days before and stored in a fridge with the help of Murat and they were not there when it was done. The GNR dogs would have found a location fairly easily the next day.)
Even if one disliked one's own child I find it impossible to think of all that if you find her dead.
Amaral had to go with what would be acceptable to their prosecution service. He may have other ideas. Pat's idea of carrying the dead child down to the beach that evening or hide her in a culvert or something is not likely either imo.
Apart from all of that, Maddie had to have died some two hours earlier to leave the cadaver odour. There was simply no time.

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by rainbow-fairy on 17.05.12 8:38

Stewie wrote:I go with JD that it was probably asking a question of the police. Both time it was in front of police officers and I believe was meant as a distress signal for help for those in the know that might recognise such a signal. To those that aren't in the know it just looked like a bizarre act that they didn't understand.

That seems the best fit to me.
100% agree Stewie. I just cannot go with 'distraction'. There would be far more sensible, less risky ways of distraction - hysterical mother collapsing with sheer terror etc, but 'praying Arab'? No way. Clearly a Masonic distress signal - a 'rally the troops' kind of thing that unfortunately for them the PT police didn't understand (or did they?)

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Re: The Kipper and the Corpse

Post by david_uk on 17.05.12 8:46

I dont understand the logic in thinking the odd actions are a masonic signal!! Signal to who? this wasnt big brother live..

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