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Post by tuom on 13.04.12 21:17

@Nina wrote:There is a photograph taken on the night of the 3rd showing a pile of clothes in the McCann's bedroom wardrobe, right underneath the blue bag that they didn't own Maddie's clothes - Page 2 302873 I am assuming these were dirty clothes so apart from the morning rinse of the pj top no other washing seems to have been done, or Kate didn't tell us about any.

On the 5th some clothing was sent to the OC laundry,

Quote c/p,

Processos Vol III

Pages 560 -561

Witness statement

Vera María Mestre Fernandes Arez


Date: 2007/05/08

Occupation: Laundry Worker


Place of Work: Ocean Club

She has worked at the Ocean Club for six years with the function of cleaner in the rooms and apartments of Waterside Village and for the last 4 years her function is laundry worker. Her working hours are from 09.30 to 13.00 and from 14.30 to 18.00. The laundry, her place of work, is situated in the Ocean Club Gardens.

That as laundry worker her functions are to wash, dry all the linen from the rooms and apartments (sheets, towels and clothes from some of the clients) and from the Ocean Club restaurants (towels). All the laundry work takes place in the laundry where she works with three colleagues.

That she knows about the situation that occurred in the Ocean Club since 04/05/2007 at 09.30 as she was informed by a colleague from the laundry that a child had disappeared.

That she does not know the circumstances in which the girl disappeared only having heard about it in the press and from colleagues.

That she remembers that on Saturday 05/05/2007 having washed clothing belonging to the missing girl’s family and she checked that it was children’s and adult’s clothing. This service was carried out by her colleague Silvia Cravinho. That on the next day Sunday it was her colleague Bernadete Calado who went to deliver the clothing directly to the missing girl’s apartment.


That before that no clothing from the missing girl’s family had been washed and after that date there was no other washing of clothes from the family.

That she never had any contact with the family or with the missing girl as she never leaves the laundry except to have lunch.

That she did not notice anything strange on 03/05/2007. She did not notice anything strange on the days preceding this date and does not have any information about the disappearance.

No more is said. Reads, ratifies and signs.

There is also a list somewhere of what this clothing was but I need to go and look for that yet. I am very puzzled why none of thes items were not offered for the tracker dogs, rather than a towel that anyone could have used.



What !!!! your daughter is missing and you get a wash done Maddie's clothes - Page 2 442375629
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Post by tigger on 13.04.12 21:40

Are we at cross purposes here?
I said that three pyjamas - meaning for one child - is far too much for a week's holiday.
About her other clothes we know very little and that is due to the very few photographs we have of that holiday.

I don't think the children had all that many clothes with them. Candyfloss posted the photograph with the heap of clothes in the cupboard. Even that doesn't look much. I think they wouldn't have needed much since they spent each and every day in the creche. The twins did in any case.
The lack of clothes here is much more about Maddie's absence as is the lack of photographs.

The sharing of clothes - shoes must be impossible. There was the red T shirt that Sean was wearing months later which was much too big for him. I think that was Maddie's.

But it will be interesting to see the list of clothes supplied by the laundress if we can find it.


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Post by tigger on 13.04.12 21:43

tuom wrote:
What !!!! your daughter is missing and you get a wash done unquote

She also asked a friend on the fourth of May to cancel the groceries due to be delivered on Saturday in Rothley. Busy housewife that day - groceries, laundry...


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Post by Nina on 13.04.12 22:09

@tigger wrote:Are we at cross purposes here?
I said that three pyjamas - meaning for one child - is far too much for a week's holiday.
About her other clothes we know very little and that is due to the very few photographs we have of that holiday.

I don't think the children had all that many clothes with them. Candyfloss posted the photograph with the heap of clothes in the cupboard. Even that doesn't look much. I think they wouldn't have needed much since they spent each and every day in the creche. The twins did in any case.
The lack of clothes here is much more about Maddie's absence as is the lack of photographs.

The sharing of clothes - shoes must be impossible. There was the red T shirt that Sean was wearing months later which was much too big for him. I think that was Maddie's.

But it will be interesting to see the list of clothes supplied by the laundress if we can find it.

Tigger there is a list of all the clothing sent to the laundry but I cannot for the life of me find it, actually my memory says there wasn't a lot for all the family, so they had few clothes with them or sent only a few keeping others back or they sent a few and chucked some, or they give stuff a good shake and don't bother spin

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Post by PeterMac on 13.04.12 22:41

@Nina wrote:
EJW, I am of the old brigade where my children had clean clothes on through the day and clean nightclothes on through the night. So if I only took three pairs of everything I would wash every day. We on the forum will have to agree to disagree on this, some think one pair of pjs is ok for a week, some think clean on every night. We are different, not correct not wrong just different.snip
Indeed. I was taught to fold up my pyjamas and put them under the pillow, and then make the bed. I doubt whether they were washed more than once a week.
We did not "sweat" in bed, pyjamas were to keep us warm. And enuresis aside, why put a child in new pyjamas every night ?
Who now remembers finding the frost on the INSIDE of the bedroom window, and getting out of bed in bare feet onto lino. We used to make those little rugs out of the cut wool to stand on in the morning.

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Post by Nina on 13.04.12 22:52

@PeterMac wrote:
@Nina wrote:
EJW, I am of the old brigade where my children had clean clothes on through the day and clean nightclothes on through the night. So if I only took three pairs of everything I would wash every day. We on the forum will have to agree to disagree on this, some think one pair of pjs is ok for a week, some think clean on every night. We are different, not correct not wrong just different.snip
Indeed. I was taught to fold up my pyjamas and put them under the pillow, and then make the bed. I doubt whether they were washed more than once a week.
We did not "sweat" in bed, pyjamas were to keep us warm. And enuresis aside, why put a child in new pyjamas every night ?
Who now remembers finding the frost on the INSIDE of the bedroom window, and getting out of bed in bare feet onto lino. We used to make those little rugs out of the cut wool to stand on in the morning.
Yes PeterMac I can remember the clipped rugs, I still have the tool my dear Mum used to make them with. And the folded pjs under the pillow yes indeed I remember all of that.
Why put a child in clean pjs every night. Do you know I cannot give you a sensible answer to that, I just did.

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Post by tuom on 13.04.12 22:57

@tigger wrote:tuom wrote:
What !!!! your daughter is missing and you get a wash done unquote

She also asked a friend on the fourth of May to cancel the groceries due to be delivered on Saturday in Rothley. Busy housewife that day - groceries, laundry...




Yeah I have read that , I think it was her Mom but again ?????? Maddie's clothes - Page 2 1307929409
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Post by tuom on 13.04.12 23:03

@tigger wrote:EJW:
We're commenting exactly on how few clothes we know about. Partly because there are next to no photographs of Maddie during that holiday.
I still think that three sets of pyjamas for one week is too much.
The sharing is highly unlikely since Amelie is petite and the girl with the tennis balls is a lot bigger. Not possible!




I agree although when you look at the amount of time they needed to be "dressed up" its not surprising , from our holidays I always remember having the really new and nice outfits for the kiddies disco and the evening entertainment that my daughters loved , alas the MC are eerr different.

and for the record each of my daughters had their own toothbrush and hairbrush , but then again I may be a little over the top Maddie's clothes - Page 2 110921
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Post by Miraflores on 14.04.12 9:19

@tuom wrote:
@tigger wrote:tuom wrote:
What !!!! your daughter is missing and you get a wash done unquote

She also asked a friend on the fourth of May to cancel the groceries due to be delivered on Saturday in Rothley. Busy housewife that day - groceries, laundry...

Yeah I have read that , I think it was her Mom but again ?????? Maddie's clothes - Page 2 1307929409

Definitely not what I would have remembered to do. When my mother died, I got home from the hospital to find a stone cold box of food from her 'meals on wheels' type service. Next day, I was still sorting things out, seeing the funeral director etc. and again forgot all about the meal coming until it turned up at 5pm. That was pretty handy - I had been too busy to think about food, so I ate the meal myself and cancelled the order from then on. I would imagine that would be a pretty typical way to behave, and I was in the same country as my mother, and her death, although sudden, was not entirely unexpected at 87.

Madeleine - small child disappearing, in a foreign country, believed to be abducted by paedophiles, and you phone home to cancel your grocery order, yet you were too 'non-functioning' to go out and search? I know that shock can make you act irrationally but to my mind it doesn't add up.

Re 'Jack Frost' inside the window pains and cold lino - yes, I remember that only too well.
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Post by PeterMac on 14.04.12 10:09

@Miraflores wrote:Re 'Jack Frost' inside the window panes and cold lino - yes, I remember that only too well.
There is a school of thought which holds that the reason the current generation of young people are significantly taller than the previous one is that the energy we expended in keeping warm, which was considerable, is, in centrally heated houses now available for growth at the appropriate times during development.
(There are other theories to do with growth hormones in pork and chicken, contraceptive pill residues in the drinking water delaying puberty in boys and so on.)

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Post by joyce1938 on 14.04.12 11:02

loved your post petermac obout pyjamas,my kids had bath or in big sink every night when small and jammies did 3 or 4 nights ,didnt get grubby unless they got food down front or rolled around floorreally,but to each there own ,i had no washing machine for firsr few years ,then iot was an old twintub,happy days now i think ,didnt always at the time ,haha joyce1938
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Post by rainbow-fairy on 14.04.12 11:15

Ha I am I guess in that 'tween generation. I definitely remember very fondly the thick frosty ice inside my bedroom window - so pretty! I actually hate central heating, so oppressive and its everywhere all the time - shops, schools, offices, yuk!
One of the nicest things I remember is toasting in a room with a roaring fire and then escaping to the cool of the kitchen. Bliss!

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Post by Ribisl on 14.04.12 11:55

@PeterMac wrote:
@Miraflores wrote:Re 'Jack Frost' inside the window panes and cold lino - yes, I remember that only too well.
There is a school of thought which holds that the reason the current generation of young people are significantly taller than the previous one is that the energy we expended in keeping warm, which was considerable, is, in centrally heated houses now available for growth at the appropriate times during development.
(There are other theories to do with growth hormones in pork and chicken, contraceptive pill residues in the drinking water delaying puberty in boys and so on.)

Could it also explain a small part of the fact childhood obesity has more than tripled in the past 30 years? thinking

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Post by PeterMac on 14.04.12 13:41

@Ribisl wrote:
Could it also explain a small part of the fact childhood obesity has more than tripled in the past 30 years? thinking
Very probably,but the addition of corn syrup into just about everything is another major factor, just as is television, games consoles and selling off school playing fields.

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Post by Miraflores on 14.04.12 13:42

Could it also explain a small part of the fact childhood obesity has more than tripled in the past 30 years

What - you mean shivering kept us slim? If only losing weight were that simple!

To go back to the thread - I think for a week's holiday we used to take 2 or 3 pairs of pyjamas - depending on washing facilities, and age of children and how dry they were likely to stay at night. (So that's no help really, is it?) What I don't believe is the one toothbrush between all three! No.
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Post by Guest on 14.04.12 14:04

@PeterMac wrote:
@Ribisl wrote:
Could it also explain a small part of the fact childhood obesity has more than tripled in the past 30 years? thinking
Very probably,but the addition of corn syrup into just about everything is another major factor, just as is television, games consoles and selling off school playing fields.

Nothing to do with fast food then big grin

The first branch of McDonald's in the UK opened on October 12, 1974 in Woolwich, southeast London

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_the_first_branch_of_McDonald's_open_in_the_UK
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Post by tigger on 14.04.12 14:13

candyfloss wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@Ribisl wrote:
Could it also explain a small part of the fact childhood obesity has more than tripled in the past 30 years? thinking
Very probably,but the addition of corn syrup into just about everything is another major factor, just as is television, games consoles and selling off school playing fields.

Nothing to do with fast food then big grin

The first branch of McDonald's in the UK opened on October 12, 1974 in Woolwich, southeast London

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_the_first_branch_of_McDonald's_open_in_the_UK

Since we've sashayed into food - here's my tuppence worth:
Oestrogens have been polluting both the water supply and the food supply. Men are getting breast cancer - don't know the percentage. Men are also more prone to getting man-boobs, apparently there was an area in the US where men seemed to be turning into women. Chicken was v. high in female hormones.There are also quite a lot of problems with fresh water fish and estrogen's.

Imo children don't move these days, we walked half an hour to school. Despite being warned about child abductors (yes even then they existed) it wasn't much of a risk.
RB, I hate central heating and love wood burners! Re heat/cold reason for obesity: polar explorers (Ralph Fiennes I think) were taking in 8000 calories a day - almost four times the normal amount and they were losing weight at a rate of knots!

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Post by EJW on 15.04.12 20:45

@Nina wrote:
@EJW wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@EJW wrote:Thank you Tigger, that was kind of my point, there would be lots of clothes for a weeks holiday abroad and very little evidence of them. The sharing of clothes is in my mind a non starter and I can't think why this was suggested by KM. The difference in sizes between children of that age is imo a big one and they would not be sharing clothes, Amelie would be buried by Madeleine's tops or trousers. However, 3 pairs of pj's imo is not enough for a weeks hol's.Maddie's clothes - Page 2 847771
Without putting too fine a point on it, it is the same as saying I went on holiday with three children and took three pairs of knickers/underpants.



Sorry? I'm not sure i understand? 3 pairs of pj's for one child for a weeks holidays is not enough? It's not enough from my experience.
EJW, I am of the old brigade where my children had clean clothes on through the day and clean nightclothes on through the night. So if I only took three pairs of everything I would wash every day. We on the forum will have to agree to disagree on this, some think one pair of pjs is ok for a week, some think clean on every night. We are different, not correct not wrong just different. However I would hazzard a guess that we all to a man/woman wouldn't go out and leave three chuildren to whatever befell them, if in fact this did happen.



Thank you Nina and as you have suggested we won't all agree on the pyjama scenario, I probably have a touch of OCD Maddie's clothes - Page 2 110921 I completely agree that I do not know of any parent who would leave their children alone at night so that they could enjoy an evening at a restaurant, I wouldn't even consider it, it wouldn't have ever crossed my mind, or been an option (the very thing which made me sceptical in the beginning)

I also wouldn't have dumped my children in a creche everyday either as surely the whole point of a holiday with you children is to spend as much time together giving your children memories that will last foreverMaddie's clothes - Page 2 847771
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Post by Nina on 15.04.12 20:54

@EJW wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@EJW wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@EJW wrote:Thank you Tigger, that was kind of my point, there would be lots of clothes for a weeks holiday abroad and very little evidence of them. The sharing of clothes is in my mind a non starter and I can't think why this was suggested by KM. The difference in sizes between children of that age is imo a big one and they would not be sharing clothes, Amelie would be buried by Madeleine's tops or trousers. However, 3 pairs of pj's imo is not enough for a weeks hol's.Maddie's clothes - Page 2 847771
Without putting too fine a point on it, it is the same as saying I went on holiday with three children and took three pairs of knickers/underpants.



Sorry? I'm not sure i understand? 3 pairs of pj's for one child for a weeks holidays is not enough? It's not enough from my experience.
EJW, I am of the old brigade where my children had clean clothes on through the day and clean nightclothes on through the night. So if I only took three pairs of everything I would wash every day. We on the forum will have to agree to disagree on this, some think one pair of pjs is ok for a week, some think clean on every night. We are different, not correct not wrong just different. However I would hazzard a guess that we all to a man/woman wouldn't go out and leave three chuildren to whatever befell them, if in fact this did happen.



Thank you Nina and as you have suggested we won't all agree on the pyjama scenario, I probably have a touch of OCD Maddie's clothes - Page 2 110921 I completely agree that I do not know of any parent who would leave their children alone at night so that they could enjoy an evening at a restaurant, I wouldn't even consider it, it wouldn't have ever crossed my mind, or been an option (the very thing which made me sceptical in the beginning)

I also wouldn't have dumped my children in a creche everyday either as surely the whole point of a holiday with you children is to spend as much time together giving your children memories that will last foreverMaddie's clothes - Page 2 847771

Hi EJW. I agree with you a family holiday for us was just that. Time spent together doing whatever the weather and finances permitted. Now I know there may be parents on this very forum who have used a holiday creche, and their children enjoyed the experience. But all day, every day, then bed and left again?
I cannot for the life of me understand why these children were taken on this holiday to be left as they were.

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Post by EJW on 15.04.12 21:05

Yes Nina you're right, why would you plan a holiday with your family and then leave them to the care of creche workers all day every day and then leave them at night! What sort of a holiday is that for your children. I have friends who use creches whilst on holiday sporadically, and it works well for them, but for me i want to have the quality time with my children and my husband together as a family. The fun and enjoyment of the McCann children seems to have been an afterthought, imo, after tennis sessions and lengthy tapas meals with numerous bottles of wine! Maddie's clothes - Page 2 847771
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Post by Guest on 15.04.12 21:09

It was the strangest holiday for a family imo. Dumping the kids in the creche, and then spending most of the time on the tennis courts or jogging. A tennis court is a tennis court, the same everywhere. Ok the weather might be better there, although as it turned out is was not nice in PDL and nicer here. What on earth would make you want to be on a tennis court all the time. Surely having taken the children, they should have visited the attractions, and given the children a holiday of a lifetime, taken loads of photos so the kids could look back at them. They can spend their time in creches here. There is so much to see and do around PDL, for the kids, why didn't they take them to Aqualand or the zoo. They could have hired a car or taxis, and had nice trips out. I cannot for the life of me understand what the point of this holiday was.

http://www.praiadaluzuncovered.com/things-to-do/information.aspx

Parque Zoológico de Lagos (Zoo Lagos): A beautiful zoo, just on the outskirts of Lagos. It is a fantastic day out for all ages, with lots of lovely animals.
Open all year round, 7 days a week
.


Slide and Splash water park near Lagoa - operates from the beginning of April to the end of October. It opens daily at 10am and closes between 5pm and 6pm depending on the time of year.


Aqualand (The Big One): Water park near Alcantarilha. Opens end of May to middle of September 10.00h to 18.00h.
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Post by Nina on 15.04.12 21:24

candyfloss wrote:It was the strangest holiday for a family imo. Dumping the kids in the creche, and then spending most of the time on the tennis courts or jogging. A tennis court is a tennis court, the same everywhere. Ok the weather might be better there, although as it turned out is was not nice in PDL and nicer here. What on earth would make you want to be on a tennis court all the time. Surely having taken the children, they should have visited the attractions, and given the children a holiday of a lifetime, taken loads of photos so the kids could look back at them. They can spend their time in creches here. There is so much to see and do around PDL, for the kids, why didn't they take them to Aqualand or the zoo. They could have hired a car or taxis, and had nice trips out. I cannot for the life of me understand what the point of this holiday was.

http://www.praiadaluzuncovered.com/things-to-do/information.aspx

Parque Zoológico de Lagos (Zoo Lagos): A beautiful zoo, just on the outskirts of Lagos. It is a fantastic day out for all ages, with lots of lovely animals.
Open all year round, 7 days a week
.


Slide and Splash water park near Lagoa - operates from the beginning of April to the end of October. It opens daily at 10am and closes between 5pm and 6pm depending on the time of year.


Aqualand (The Big One): Water park near Alcantarilha. Opens end of May to middle of September 10.00h to 18.00h.

I think they took the twins to the zoo after the event. The Punch and Judy photograph was taken there also the twins in little push along cars.

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Post by Guest on 15.04.12 21:30

They may have gone later but they should have done this all together on a family holiday. Sadly Madeleine didn't get to go did she. sad Yet she was the older one, and would have enjoyed all these attractions.
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Post by Nina on 15.04.12 21:36

candyfloss wrote:They may have gone later but they should have done this all together on a family holiday. Sadly Madeleine didn't get to go did she. sad Yet she was the older one, and would have enjoyed all these attractions.
Candyfloss, I' was saying that in a very sarcastic tone. As you say that's what they should have been doing on a family holiday. Loads of time spent on the beach and rock pools with maybe a special trip to the zoo, but quality family time just didn't feature on that holiday.

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Post by tuom on 16.04.12 15:45

@Miraflores wrote:
@tuom wrote:
@tigger wrote:tuom wrote:
What !!!! your daughter is missing and you get a wash done unquote

She also asked a friend on the fourth of May to cancel the groceries due to be delivered on Saturday in Rothley. Busy housewife that day - groceries, laundry...

Yeah I have read that , I think it was her Mom but again ?????? Maddie's clothes - Page 2 1307929409

Definitely not what I would have remembered to do. When my mother died, I got home from the hospital to find a stone cold box of food from her 'meals on wheels' type service. Next day, I was still sorting things out, seeing the funeral director etc. and again forgot all about the meal coming until it turned up at 5pm. That was pretty handy - I had been too busy to think about food, so I ate the meal myself and cancelled the order from then on. I would imagine that would be a pretty typical way to behave, and I was in the same country as my mother, and her death, although sudden, was not entirely unexpected at 87.

Madeleine - small child disappearing, in a foreign country, believed to be abducted by paedophiles, and you phone home to cancel your grocery order, yet you were too 'non-functioning' to go out and search? I know that shock can make you act irrationally but to my mind it doesn't add up.

Re 'Jack Frost' inside the window pains and cold lino - yes, I remember that only too well.



Exactly !!! so are we normal ?? what is normal ??? imo in tragic circumstances there is no normality , certainly not the actions of the MMCsMaddie's clothes - Page 2 173510
tuom
tuom

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