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Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

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Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by juliet on 05.04.12 20:06

The Paynes brought a baby monitor for their two children, which is why they "never had to check on them". Tanner and O'Briend brought a baby monitor (I remember Tanner talking about how they fiddled with it on the Tapas restaurant table, and she worried it might have given a would-be abductor "ideas".) The Oldfields don't claim a baby monitor, but they are a strange couple who left their baby with diarrhoea all night and then complained that she smelled.

The McCanns, with three children, had no monitor at all. ALL knew there was no baby-listening service at the Ocean Club before the holiday. Why not even bother to try to listen out for their children?
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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by Miraflores on 05.04.12 20:40

Weird, isn't it? A monitor plus regular checks would have made more sense.
That's why a number of us suspect that the children were not left unattended and that there was always an adult with them.
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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by tigger on 05.04.12 20:50

Surely, I would have expected them to have one at home? It looks like quite a large house and whilst in the kitchen or sitting room it would make sense to have a baby monitor? At least for the twins - at their age.

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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 05.04.12 21:13

@juliet wrote:The Paynes brought a baby monitor for their two children, which is why they "never had to check on them". Tanner and O'Briend brought a baby monitor (I remember Tanner talking about how they fiddled with it on the Tapas restaurant table, and she worried it might have given a would-be abductor "ideas".) The Oldfields don't claim a baby monitor, but they are a strange couple who left their baby with diarrhoea all night and then complained that she smelled.

The McCanns, with three children, had no monitor at all. ALL knew there was no baby-listening service at the Ocean Club before the holiday. Why not even bother to try to listen out for their children?
Hi Juliet.
I know I've said it before, but - I'm far from convinced that any of the children were left alone.
The evidence seems to suggest that all the children were 'watched' in one apartment - indeed there was an adult missing 'sick' every evening IIRC - and what of the mysterious '10th Tapas?'
I believe the 'baby monitors' were two-way, enabling communication with the babysitting adult.
It just doesn't ring true that a group of such people - especially a GP who would have to report such behaviour by her patients - would leave their children with all the dangers it entailed (abduction being probably the bottom reason).

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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by PeterMac on 05.04.12 22:00

The "purported theory" that the children were NOT left alone each night raises an interesting possibility.
Which is that the entire Tapas7 thereby became " inextricably involved in the machinery" of the situation.
(Denning MR, Uddin - v - Portland Cement, [1965] 2 All E.R. 213)

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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by juliet on 05.04.12 22:11

It's interesting that there was a certain amount of wriggling and jiggling by Payne about whether the group knew there was no listening process by Mark Warner...and of course the Paynes brought their own high-spec monitor anyway.

About Miss Tanner: her story was that the "abductor" held the child like a large tray, on outstretched arms. It's well nigh impossible to hold a child in this way. But of course she had to make the "abductor" look very different from the man Mr Smith saw, who was holding a child exactly the way McCann held a child...(and of course, as most people would do so).
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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by tigger on 06.04.12 6:37

@juliet wrote:It's interesting that there was a certain amount of wriggling and jiggling by Payne about whether the group knew there was no listening process by Mark Warner...and of course the Paynes brought their own high-spec monitor anyway.

About Miss Tanner: her story was that the "abductor" held the child like a large tray, on outstretched arms. It's well nigh impossible to hold a child in this way. But of course she had to make the "abductor" look very different from the man Mr Smith saw, who was holding a child exactly the way McCann held a child...(and of course, as most people would do so).

Juliet, your logic is at fault in the last paragraph. How could JT know that the way Gerry holds a child would be commented on by the Smiths. Do you mean most people would hold a child like that or most people would comment on it? The Smiths' testimony didn't come till weeks later, end of May?

JT didn't make his clothing very different to that of Gerry initially, she only adjusted her description later, several times. I expect once she knew that Gerry was worried about the Smiths.
I think she described egg man like that because it would look more suspicious, either that, or she is missing a large number of brain cells.
Carrying a bag of sugar that way does your back in.

But you're right about Gerry - I think he wore the beige trousers with buttons, in one of the photographs of the PJ they are lying on the bed. He changed into jeans before the alarm was raised I'd think.

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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by juliet on 06.04.12 16:59

I'm assuming Gerry had told her he'd been seen, and that he'd been holding the child against his chest. So she altered the carrying position just to draw more suspicion away from him. She and/or her husband were flitting around half that evening - perhaps they saw Gerry set off on his mission.
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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by tigger on 06.04.12 19:17

@juliet wrote:I'm assuming Gerry had told her he'd been seen, and that he'd been holding the child against his chest. So she altered the carrying position just to draw more suspicion away from him. She and/or her husband were flitting around half that evening - perhaps they saw Gerry set off on his mission.

We're already off topic here too! My fault too - just quickly - I think Jane had to give Gerry an alibi, which is why she saw Ovoid when the two men were talking.
Imo, we have three props to tell us Maddie was abducted: Cuddlecat, blanket and too high window/shutters to get out for Maddie.
Then two sightings of a man and child, one witness of the T7 and an independent one in PdL (the Smiths as it turned out). Gerry was unlucky as there were 8 or 9 of them who saw him from all angles, so hiding his face was difficult. Luckily for him the Smiths didn't contact the police till much later. The Smith sighting was completely ignored by TM initially.
It's unlikely imo that Gerry would find the way he carries a child strange and he very likely would not have known the asinine drawing JT approved as her true observation.
The props and the two abductor sightings should have clinched the story for the PJ.
Dr. Roberts - are you listening Mr. Policeman? is a good one to read.

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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by tigger on 06.04.12 19:25

Getting back on topic: we're struggling lately aren't we Candyfloss!

Baby monitor. Considering how often the back garden of Rothley Towers has come up, it's strange that they never mentioned a baby monitor.
If I had a largish garden, or - as Gerry amended it lately - was sitting in the neighbours' garden. I'd still want to have a baby monitor.

Apart from that, Maddie often woke up and got out of bed at night. In fact she got a star if she stayed in bed. So if the sainted couple were having a drink either in their or the neighbours' garden, the darlings might be setting fire to themselves, drinking bleach, you name it. Doctors who see the most hideous results of accidents in the home and they have no baby monitor?

But it is never mentioned - as in 'We wished we'd taken the baby monitor but we were told they don't work in Portugal' or 'MW told us it wouldn't be necessary' or any number of excuses.

If you take three children abroad, two of them just over two years old and a four year old who gets out of bed often at night and sleeps badly - you think listening is enough? Couldn't they work out a better excuse or plan?

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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by juliet on 06.04.12 19:47

My feeling was, of course they couldn't have taken a baby monitor to PdL....because they couldn't risk the possibility of "overhearing" the abduction.

They clearly knew there wasn't a listening service at PdL. Yet McCanns and Oldfields couldn't be bothered to bring or buy a monitor - despite being determined to eat out every night.

It's within the bounds of possibility that the weird McCanns were prepared to let the children get on with it. But the Oldfields, with one small, sick baby - are we meant to believe they cared so little for their child??



The answer does seem to be that all the children were gathered in one place, with one adult as babysitter each night.
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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by tigger on 06.04.12 20:05

@juliet wrote:My feeling was, of course they couldn't have taken a baby monitor to PdL....because they couldn't risk the possibility of "overhearing" the abduction.

They clearly knew there wasn't a listening service at PdL. Yet McCanns and Oldfields couldn't be bothered to bring or buy a monitor - despite being determined to eat out every night.

It's within the bounds of possibility that the weird McCanns were prepared to let the children get on with it. But the Oldfields, with one small, sick baby - are we meant to believe they cared so little for their child??



The answer does seem to be that all the children were gathered in one place, with one adult as babysitter each night.


That's it of course. Even so, why not use the baby sitting service? But we have two couples with baby monitors and the monitors are never mentioned by the McCanns as an excuse. Too late now, it would have been far more believable if say their monitor had broken down without them noticing - etc. etc.
I think that's what JT was saying, that hers didn't work properly and they didn't really use it although I think they had it with them at the Tapas bar.
Lying is really difficult if you're making sure your children are safe and yet need to allow an abduction to take place.


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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by dentdelion on 06.04.12 21:01

Sorry I cannot accept that one adult managed the care of 8 "under four's" including young babies. Bad enough getting one or two of your own to settle down in a strange setting let alone a whole gang of them! Not all the adults were that well known to each other let alone to the respective children. Would not someone have witnessed this amount of children being carried back and forth each evening at odd hours?

I do not understand the granny leaving her grand kids to their fate? Surely she was the odd one out and would have been happy to babysit? She does not seem to have undertaken any patrols and sat on at the Tapas Bar dinner table when the rest of the group rushed off when the alarm was raised.

More questions than answers as we tease out details in this case.
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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by juliet on 06.04.12 22:17

I agree that the logistics are complicated.

Worth noting, perhaps, are certain facts: for example, that Dianne Webster supposedly slept in some sort of lounge put-me-up while the little Payne girl had one of the beds in the bedroom and the baby was in the Payne bedroom (IIRC).

How rude to put poor old grandma in the living room! Was the bedroom turned into a dormitory?

Then, the Paynes were always reportedly the last down to dinner. Is it possible the others delivered various drugged infants before going down to the Tapas? It doesn't sound logistically sound. If not, what?
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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by tigger on 07.04.12 7:07

This is a very interesting exchange of information from: it's best to look it up but here is an extract re the baby monitor of JT and ROB.

http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/conversation-with-press.html


Message: Dear Mr. Smith,

In your article "Kate and Gerry McCann: Beyond the smears", from 16th December 2007, you mention this fact: "Russell O’Brien
and Jane Tanner had brought a monitor too, but theirs wasn’t getting much of a signal from the Tapas restaurant 50 yards away."

The couple never mentioned to the PJ that they brought a monitor as well, in all their statements they claim that the Paynes were
the only ones with a baby monitor. Only in April 2008, in the rogatory interviews conducted by Leicestershire Police, this piece
of information appeared.
It might seem a small omission, but in the light of possible neglect charges, would have been important.
Jane Tanner claims in the rogatory interview that she brought it with her in the evenings and positioned it on a ledge/wall behind
her. This was NEVER mentioned to portuguese Police as the released statements show. The question I have is, how did you
get this info before the rogatory interviews even took place? I know you have to protect sources, but this seems a very strange
inside knowledge.

Thank you in advance.

Kind regards

-----------------------------------------------------

Who are you and what is your interest in this case?
David

-----------------------------------------------------

I am sorry if I have upset you... Well I gave my name, I am from Germany and I am interested in the case. Since the files have
been released I have been trying to build myself an opinion based solely on facts and no spin. I am in the possession of the
DVD with the released case files and have spent a lot of time with their analysis. That is why I came upon this rather curious
discrepancy regarding the baby monitor. There was a meeting of the McCanns and their friends in Rothley in November, and in
December your article was published with this "new" fact. I am just curious where it suddenly came from.

Regards

--------------------------------------------------

No i am not upset. I just don't to fuel the web ghouls (i have no idea whether you are one of them or not...) who seem obsessed
with what i consider to be the grotesque idea that the mccanns or their friends did away with madeleine. In addition to the
further distress it must cause the mccanns and their friends on top of the devastating event that started it, I just feel it is a
complete waste of time and energy. That said, however, I had a long briefing with Gerry McCann before I wrote my article and
I guess the baby monitor info came from him.
I am aware that many discrepancies arose in the portuguese statements through
misunderstandings of language. And you ought to be aware that there will always be minor discrepancies of fact in statements
- failings of memory, interpretation and so on - which are not in themselves sinister or suspicious.
Unquote

It seems, from the rest of the exchange, that this second monitor didn't turn up until after the Rothley meeting .
Now I remember that just before that meeting, it seemed that some of the Tapas may have wanted to 'come clean'. I can't substantiate this by the way, read it a long time ago. But it was about JT I think. Perhaps she insisted that this monitor she actually did bring should be down in the evidence.
Perhaps she didn't like being seen as a neglectful parent or was worried about social services?



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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by Guest on 07.04.12 8:04

@tigger wrote:This is a very interesting exchange of information from: it's best to look it up but here is an extract re the baby monitor of JT and ROB.

http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/conversation-with-press.html


Message: Dear Mr. Smith,

In your article "Kate and Gerry McCann: Beyond the smears", from 16th December 2007, you mention this fact: "Russell O’Brien
and Jane Tanner had brought a monitor too, but theirs wasn’t getting much of a signal from the Tapas restaurant 50 yards away."

The couple never mentioned to the PJ that they brought a monitor as well, in all their statements they claim that the Paynes were
the only ones with a baby monitor. Only in April 2008, in the rogatory interviews conducted by Leicestershire Police, this piece
of information appeared.
It might seem a small omission, but in the light of possible neglect charges, would have been important.
Jane Tanner claims in the rogatory interview that she brought it with her in the evenings and positioned it on a ledge/wall behind
her. This was NEVER mentioned to portuguese Police as the released statements show. The question I have is, how did you
get this info before the rogatory interviews even took place? I know you have to protect sources, but this seems a very strange
inside knowledge.

Thank you in advance.

Kind regards

-----------------------------------------------------

Who are you and what is your interest in this case?
David

-----------------------------------------------------

I am sorry if I have upset you... Well I gave my name, I am from Germany and I am interested in the case. Since the files have
been released I have been trying to build myself an opinion based solely on facts and no spin. I am in the possession of the
DVD with the released case files and have spent a lot of time with their analysis. That is why I came upon this rather curious
discrepancy regarding the baby monitor. There was a meeting of the McCanns and their friends in Rothley in November, and in
December your article was published with this "new" fact. I am just curious where it suddenly came from.

Regards

--------------------------------------------------

No i am not upset. I just don't to fuel the web ghouls (i have no idea whether you are one of them or not...) who seem obsessed
with what i consider to be the grotesque idea that the mccanns or their friends did away with madeleine. In addition to the
further distress it must cause the mccanns and their friends on top of the devastating event that started it, I just feel it is a
complete waste of time and energy. That said, however, I had a long briefing with Gerry McCann before I wrote my article and
I guess the baby monitor info came from him.
I am aware that many discrepancies arose in the portuguese statements through
misunderstandings of language. And you ought to be aware that there will always be minor discrepancies of fact in statements
- failings of memory, interpretation and so on - which are not in themselves sinister or suspicious.
Unquote

It seems, from the rest of the exchange, that this second monitor didn't turn up until after the Rothley meeting .
Now I remember that just before that meeting, it seemed that some of the Tapas may have wanted to 'come clean'. I can't substantiate this by the way, read it a long time ago. But it was about JT I think. Perhaps she insisted that this monitor she actually did bring should be down in the evidence.
Perhaps she didn't like being seen as a neglectful parent or was worried about social services?



If u read the staff from tapas bar statement, some of them are mentioning seeing more than one monitor on the table..
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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by tigger on 07.04.12 8:53

Moa, if you read the link you will find this answer to D.Smith:


I am sorry if I have upset you... Well I gave my name, I am from Germany and I am interested in the case. Since the files have
been released I have been trying to build myself an opinion based solely on facts and no spin. I am in the possession of the
DVD with the released case files and have spent a lot of time with their analysis. That is why I came upon this rather curious
discrepancy regarding the baby monitor. There was a meeting of the McCanns and their friends in Rothley in November, and in
December your article was published with this "new" fact. I am just curious where it suddenly came from.
unquote.

Candyfloss has asked us not to quote too long or too many posts as in the 'Why didn't you come' topic which has become impossible to read for that reason alone.
So I usually copy and paste the part of the quote I am replying to, with quotes and reference. Makes life easier?

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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by Guest on 07.04.12 10:19

@tigger wrote:Moa, if you read the link you will find this answer to D.Smith:


I am sorry if I have upset you... Well I gave my name, I am from Germany and I am interested in the case. Since the files have
been released I have been trying to build myself an opinion based solely on facts and no spin. I am in the possession of the
DVD with the released case files and have spent a lot of time with their analysis. That is why I came upon this rather curious
discrepancy regarding the baby monitor. There was a meeting of the McCanns and their friends in Rothley in November, and in
December your article was published with this "new" fact. I am just curious where it suddenly came from.
unquote.

Candyfloss has asked us not to quote too long or too many posts as in the 'Why didn't you come' topic which has become impossible to read for that reason alone.
So I usually copy and paste the part of the quote I am replying to, with quotes and reference. Makes life easier?

I did read that. Thats why i mentioned that some of the staff also told that there where more than one monitor. My point is why did they lie about it in the first place. Because if they had monitors I have problems beliving they acually went to physicly check on them.. So if they did not check on them and left them alone, an accident could have happened that wouldnt be noticed until hours later.. And also a "good" reason for them to lie about it all or just telling part of the truth.. That also makes it easier to believe that it happened earlier in the week...

there are so many teories in this case, im still trying to find the one making most sence.. Not easy at all...

( I also mention again that sometimes I do missunerstand what im reading on here and might get another point than what was the intention from the writer.. Thats the negativ thing with second languages ...So sorry if im sometimes look foolish, does not mean im stupid just reading it wrong yes )
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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by Ollie on 07.04.12 13:42

If you have a baby monitor it states quite clearly in the info for baby monitors that physical checks on children must be carried out. So those that had a monitor still neglected their children, (if the children were in fact left alone in the apartments at night) saying they had a monitor does not exonerate them!

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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by PeterMac on 07.04.12 14:07

@Ollie wrote:If you have a baby monitor it states quite clearly in the info for baby monitors that physical checks on children must be carried out. So those that had a monitor still neglected their children, (if the children were in fact left alone in the apartments at night) saying they had a monitor does not exonerate them!
Quite so.
The sound of a child crying means that the child is crying - and alive.
Silence on a baby monitor can mean several things !

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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by aquila on 08.04.12 1:56

@juliet wrote:The Paynes brought a baby monitor for their two children, which is why they "never had to check on them". Tanner and O'Briend brought a baby monitor (I remember Tanner talking about how they fiddled with it on the Tapas restaurant table, and she worried it might have given a would-be abductor "ideas".) The Oldfields don't claim a baby monitor, but they are a strange couple who left their baby with diarrhoea all night and then complained that she smelled.

The McCanns, with three children, had no monitor at all. ALL knew there was no baby-listening service at the Ocean Club before the holiday. Why not even bother to try to listen out for their children?

Why would you need a baby monitor (state of the art apparently) if you go on holiday in an apartment with tiled floors and concrete walls where you can hear a cough at twenty yards, unless you intended to leave your kids in the first place or you perhaps needed that as an excuse? I'd need to see the receipt for those baby monitors bought in UK. I'd need to see the baby monitors themselves and test them. I'd need to ask why they were brought on holiday.
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Re: Why didn't McCanns even bring a baby monitor?

Post by juliet on 08.04.12 18:55

Sorry if I'm missing the point, but I assumed the chums had already planned to eat out every night, as Payne made such a fuss when booking about the listening service, or lack of. Some of the group had had a fine time in another MW place, IIRC, where they made full use of the listening service.

I am intrigued that you would like to know where the monitors were bought, etc...

My thought was that the McCanns couldn't be caught in possession of a monitor as that would mess up their abduction story.
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