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Madeleine's health records

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Madeleine's health records

Post by turnaround on 27.03.12 21:18

Hi. I don't know where to post this question, so i'll put it here.

Where maddie's health records ever looked at by either the Portugese Police or the british?
Did the Mcanns refuse to allow police to see her records? if so what was the reason?
or could someone point me to any statement.
thanks.

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by Tinkerbell81 on 28.03.12 9:25

Hi turnaround,
If I recall correctly, the PJ asked for her health files but they were never released from the UK which made them suspect something was wrong with them. It is somewhere in Amarals book that I read it

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by rainbow-fairy on 28.03.12 15:40

AFAIK, no. Which is odd, yes?

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by puzzled on 28.03.12 17:22

Tinkerbell81 wrote:Hi turnaround,
If I recall correctly, the PJ asked for her health files but they were never released from the UK which made them suspect something was wrong with them. It is somewhere in Amarals book that I read it

Is there any reason, I wonder, why her medical records should not have been sent to the Portuguese police? Was it in any way an unreasonable request? If someone goes missing in a foreign country, would it be normal to ask for the medical records to be sent from their home country?

Just wondering, I guess.

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by rainbow-fairy on 28.03.12 18:32

puzzled wrote:
Tinkerbell81 wrote:Hi turnaround,
If I recall correctly, the PJ asked for her health files but they were never released from the UK which made them suspect something was wrong with them. It is somewhere in Amarals book that I read it

Is there any reason, I wonder, why her medical records should not have been sent to the Portuguese police? Was it in any way an unreasonable request? If someone goes missing in a foreign country, would it be normal to ask for the medical records to be sent from their home country?

Just wondering, I guess.
How can it be unreasonable? If someone had gone missing, surely the police would want (and need) all the info possible on that individual?
I would imagine a request for records is absolutely routine - the withholding of them, I'd hazard a guess, certainly not.

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by nomendelta on 28.03.12 18:38

Yes I am fairly sure that the records were asked for - they were necessary to identify any illness, any issues on parentage as well I expect - but never received. Yet another indication that the McCanns had special treatment.

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by russiandoll on 29.03.12 9:54

I posted a copy of a document from a UK force which detailed their policy and procedures when an abduction is reported and the start point was not abduction, it was trying to establish if in fact the evidence pointed to one....and to pinpoint the start point for the missing person enquiry if not.
In the case of a vulnerable adult or a child they would be catagorised high risk and as much info as possible would be needed , medical records were mentioned.
There is no way SY should be doing this reinvestigation without all necessary info about Maddie in their possession.
The document stated clearly that special attention needs paying to both the lalst person to see the missing person and to the person reporting the abduction as historically there have been occasions of the reporter being involved in the disappearance. It also stated in bold capitals IF IN DOUBT THINK MURDER.

It was made explicit that in fact the police were to consider all reasons why a person had disappeared.

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by Lady-Heather on 29.03.12 10:14

turnaround wrote:Hi. I don't know where to post this question, so i'll put it here.

Where maddie's health records ever looked at by either the Portugese Police or the british?
Did the Mcanns refuse to allow police to see her records? if so what was the reason?
or could someone point me to any statement.
thanks.

I remember reading that the records were withheld from the PJ by the UK Home Office. TB mentions it in his letter to David Cameron back in 2010, copy of the letter courtesy of the mccannfiles.com here: http://www.mccannfiles.com/id338.html

The medical records are mentioned in point C (5) of the letter.
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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by puzzled on 29.03.12 10:25

Hmmm. Interesting indeed.

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by tigger on 14.05.14 6:35

There would be no reason at all to withold Maddie's health records:

If she was abducted -no reason

If she'd wandered off - no reason

If she'd had an accident - no reason.

If she'd been sedated - no reason, sedation would be detected by local medics or during a PM. Health records would be unlikely to contain notes on illegal sedation and Calpol was legal in the UK in any case.

So why?

Add to that that she was not an easy or healthy baby - source: the book
Add to that the remarks of the family: a screamer, could throw a tantrum.

I don't think she was ever a healthy child and imo ( that is: for those who may misread this as a FACT - please note I am giving my opinion - that is the conclusions I personally draw from the available documents and photographs, I hope that is clear) she may have had an illness which she was not likely to survive.

This condition may have acercerbated the outcome of an accident suffered in 5a.

I am sure that she was not meant to die in apartment 5a.


The abduction of a beautiful little princess was however uncannily well prepared in my opinion and an accident would have complicated matters greatly in my opinion.

Please note the tenses here indicatie supposition and speculation.

The letter presented to the PM by the Madeleine Foundation is worth a read. The link is in Russian Doll's post above.

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by missbeetle on 14.05.14 6:55

Cheers for that, Tigger. Something sickly about that poor child.

My thoughts re. Madeleine wearing a wig/hairpiece, is the bloody things are so hot and itchy... A hat or bandanna is so much more comfortable.

Happy days off talking to your cat! I do enjoy your posts.
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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by sami on 14.05.14 7:10

puzzled wrote:
Tinkerbell81 wrote:Hi turnaround,
If I recall correctly, the PJ asked for her health files but they were never released from the UK which made them suspect something was wrong with them.  It is somewhere in Amarals book that I read it

Is there any reason,  I wonder, why her medical records should not have been sent to the Portuguese police? Was it in any way an unreasonable request? If someone goes missing in a foreign country, would it be normal to ask for the medical records to be sent from their home country?

Just wondering, I guess.


I think it should be of the utmost importance, particularly because it was in a foreign country.  The police there had no access to people in regular, daily contact with Madeleine, school, carers, friends, neighbours.  They had nothing but a small group of people who clearly had an agreed story, written on a sticker book.  It should have been the first piece of information provided to detectives and 100% in Madeleine's best interests to provide  health records and which may also the provide insight into the family unit.

For the majority of children Madeleine's age their medical records will be very boring indeed.  Ear infections, chest infections, vaccinations.  Why not provide them ?

Tigger, for what it's worth I completely understand the points you make and to your credit you have steadfastly stood by your opinion over the years.  I cannot argue against what you say and there are times I agree with you.  The baby on Kates hip while she holds a glass of wine at Fiona's wedding and the child lying on her chest in blue are two different children, I think. One has a healthy bouncing baby glow, the other does not and looks frail for want of a better word.

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by Rasputin on 14.05.14 7:35

"So why?
Add to that that she was not an easy
or healthy baby - source: the book
Add to that the remarks of the
family: a screamer, could throw a
tantrum"

Add to that the parents had no patience prior to Madeleine disappearing , Gerry kindly tells us this in his blog .

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by sami on 14.05.14 8:20

Rasputin wrote:"So why?
Add to that that she was not an easy
or healthy baby - source: the book
Add to that the remarks of the
family: a screamer, could throw a
tantrum"

Add to that the parents had no patience prior to Madeleine disappearing , Gerry kindly tells us this in his blog .


I had a baby with colic, no not easy, but I have never felt the need to write about it.
 Terrible twos are so called because between 2 and 3 years of age they throw fantastic tantrums.  Normal behaviour.  I don't understand why they made such a big deal out of these issues except to divert from other things.

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by Guest on 14.05.14 8:24

Do you think Redwood and Operation Grange have had the pleasure of obtaining MBM's health records and analysing them....???
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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by ChippyM on 14.05.14 8:53

Rasputin wrote:"So why?
Add to that that she was not an easy
or healthy baby - source: the book
Add to that the remarks of the
family: a screamer, could throw a
tantrum"

Add to that the parents had no patience prior to Madeleine disappearing , Gerry kindly tells us this in his blog .

  I'm of the opinion that the screaming and 'difficult' nature could have been due to a medical condition. Obviously just my unqualified opinion but when I look at some photographs ( bike riding one and others) I'm reminded of conditions similar to Down's syndrome such as Mosaic down's syndrome which is almost a 'milder' form, flat nose bridge, low ears (notice Amelie always has pigtails but M didn't?) , folds around the eyes etc. There have been children that have got to adulthood without being diagnosed with this, so it's not always that obvious.

    A condition like that would affect growth, behaviour, cogenital heart defects etc.  I think something like this would be an explanation for the PJ's line of questioning when they asked about her being a difficult child and was a relative asked to taker her on.
It could be significant to the investigation because maybe someone wasn't coping with her behaviour, which could have had tragic consequences.
 I have also wondered about how a parent that had narcissist or border line personality traits might cope with a child that wasn't 'perfect', or how certain people might see a child with developmental problems as an easy target for exploitation. All speculation, on my part.

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by Guest on 14.05.14 8:54

sami wrote:
Rasputin wrote:"So why?
Add to that that she was not an easy
or healthy baby - source: the book
Add to that the remarks of the
family: a screamer, could throw a
tantrum"

Add to that the parents had no patience prior to Madeleine disappearing , Gerry kindly tells us this in his blog .


I had a baby with colic, no not easy, but I have never felt the need to write about it.
 Terrible twos are so called because between 2 and 3 years of age they throw fantastic tantrums.  Normal behaviour.  I don't understand why they made such a big deal out of these issues except to divert from other things.

I've said this before -  there are no anecdotes - none of those little stories that most parents and grandparents could bore you to tears with ...well apart from the downright creepy heart attack one. Also I can't help but feel that the subtle undermining of Madeleine by saying she was a screamer and could throw a tantrum etc. etc. is the family's way of justifying to themselves her ultimate fate ...she brought it on herself.

Just speculation.
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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by suzyjohnson on 14.05.14 10:46

Poe said '...........I can't help but feel that the subtle undermining of Madeleine by saying she was a screamer and could throw a tantrum etc. etc. is the family's way of justifying to themselves her ultimate fate ...she brought it on herself'




........ 'if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment why would that be our fault?' GM

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by Rasputin on 14.05.14 11:01

suzyjohnson wrote:Poe said '...........I can't help but feel that the subtle undermining of Madeleine by saying she was a screamer and could throw a tantrum etc. etc. is the family's way of justifying to themselves her ultimate fate ...she brought it on herself'




........ 'if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment why would that be our fault?' GM

....."The position that Madeleine now finds herself in " GM

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by suzyjohnson on 15.05.14 0:00

Rasputin wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:Poe said '...........I can't help but feel that the subtle undermining of Madeleine by saying she was a screamer and could throw a tantrum etc. etc. is the family's way of justifying to themselves her ultimate fate ...she brought it on herself'




........ 'if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment why would that be our fault?' GM

....."The position that Madeleine now finds herself in " GM

Yes

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by kimHager on 15.05.14 19:17

I think no records were given because KM probably being a gp was maddys doctor....or perhaps with out medical files if calls were ever on file from..say...social workers ....they would alert the pj to possible abuse or neglect already observed..just an opinion

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by Guest on 17.05.14 11:28

Quote from tigger

"I don't think she was ever a healthy child and imo ( that is: for those who may misread this as a FACT - please note I am giving my opinion - that is the conclusions I personally draw from the available documents and photographs, I hope that is clear) she may have had an illness which she was not likely to survive.

This condition may have acercerbated the outcome of an accident suffered in 5a.

I am sure that she was not meant to die in apartment 5a."

My opinion is that I'm in agreement with what tigger has had to say. we are on the Debate - for purporting theories and I'm not stating facts, but who knows one day maybe one of the many theories will become fact.

All my opinion --

A long time ago I read that the PJ were in possesion of Madeliene's Blood Spot Card and at the time it wasn't in the public domain, whether true or not it prompted me to find out more information:-

Blood Spot Cards

For police forensic work

In certain unusual situations the police can apply for a court order to allow them access to the blood spot cards of specified dead or missing individuals for forensic purposes. This happens very rarely. Current guidance is that samples from specified individuals who are alive and not missing can only be released with a court order for this purpose. This is because living individuals can provide another sample.
The police are only allowed to apply for a court order to access blood spots for specific named persons. They do not have access to information from stored blood spot collections, and are not allowed to ‘trawl’ through a collection of blood spots in the hope of identifying someone

http://newbornbloodspot.screening.nhs.uk/faqs#2c

The PJ didn't have access to madelienes medical records, was this the only way open to them, apply to a court for the card which would give them an exact match to Madeliene's DNA?

IMO if Madeliene suffered from an illness or had treatment for that illness which could cause hair loss it could be that she wore a wig, she was a 3 year old child who perhaps questioned why she didni't have hair like all other little girls, so a wig was bought. there are two people who could answer the question wig or not we won't get an answer, so theories are put forward believable or not.

Many times I've looked at photos of Madeleine on Pamalan's site as I'm sure we all have, however I was given a link to a photo on the site when I looked at it I remember saying to myself "Wow where did that come from"?

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/new-appearance.pdf
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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by lj on 17.05.14 14:30

Cherry Blossom wrote:Quote from tigger

"I don't think she was ever a healthy child and imo ( that is: for those who may misread this as a FACT - please note I am giving my opinion - that is the conclusions I personally draw from the available documents and photographs, I hope that is clear) she may have had an illness which she was not likely to survive.

This condition may have acercerbated the outcome of an accident suffered in 5a.

I am sure that she was not meant to die in apartment 5a."

My opinion is that I'm in agreement with what tigger has had to say. we are on the Debate - for purporting theories and I'm not stating facts, but who knows one day maybe one of the many theories will become fact.

All my opinion --

A long time ago I read that the PJ were in possesion of Madeliene's Blood Spot Card and at the time it wasn't in the public domain, whether true or not it prompted me to find out more information:-

Blood Spot Cards

For police forensic work

In certain unusual situations the police can apply for a court order to allow them access to the blood spot cards of specified dead or missing individuals for forensic purposes. This happens very rarely. Current guidance is that samples from specified individuals who are alive and not missing can only be released with a court order for this purpose. This is because living individuals can provide another sample.
The police are only allowed to apply for a court order to access blood spots for specific named persons. They do not have access to information from stored blood spot collections, and are not allowed to ‘trawl’ through a collection of blood spots in the hope of identifying someone

http://newbornbloodspot.screening.nhs.uk/faqs#2c

The PJ didn't have access to madelienes medical records, was this the only way open to them, apply to a court for the card which would give them an exact match to Madeliene's DNA?

IMO if Madeliene suffered from an illness or had treatment for that illness which could cause hair loss it could be that she wore a wig, she was a 3 year old child who perhaps questioned why she didni't have hair like all other little girls, so a wig was bought. there are two people who could answer the question wig or not we won't get an answer, so theories are put forward believable or not.

Many times I've looked at photos of Madeleine on Pamalan's site as I'm sure we all have, however I was given a link to a photo on the site when I looked at it I remember saying to myself "Wow where did that come from"?

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/new-appearance.pdf

Hi Cherry, as far as the card with the bloodspot goes: I guess PJ never trusted the source of the DNA as provided by the parents. Remember by that time: no brush, no toothbrush, even sandals were shared with Amelie. I don't know if at that time the 180º turn of the FSS had already taken place, that would have been an extra reason to not trust anything that came from England.

The photos I remember. Those were released when they said they might have tried to change the appearance by coloring her hair.

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by kimHager on 17.05.14 17:47

Cherry Blossom i just saw that pic from the link for the first time and i was also like omg where did that come from and it looks like a real pic not one photoshopped like the one to the right with the short brown hair...

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Re: Madeleine's health records

Post by canada12 on 17.05.14 19:30

kimHager wrote:Cherry Blossom i just saw that pic from the link for the first time and i was also like omg where did that come from and it looks like a real pic not one photoshopped like the one to the right with the short brown hair...

Agreed - and what's with the three vertical lines over her left eyebrow that look like scars?

The face that was used for this short blonde hair photo is the same as the face in the red velvet dress pic where she is very young. But the skew of the face has been angled differently and the body is facing in an entirely different direction.

Which makes me wonder now if the red velvet dress photo has been manipulated! And the short blonde hair photo is actually real.

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