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Pat Brown - What about the Window

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Nina on 19.02.12 10:43

@T4two wrote:
@Genbug wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have shutters at every window small to large and every glass door in my house. I have tried alone, 5 feet 1 and 69 years old to raise them from the outside. Impossible. I have tried with hubby, 5 feet 9 and 79 years old, together and only possible one on each side and the need to prop with bricks. For every inch we raised them they groaned, as we did, and they needed props.

The man on the picture is younger and stronger. I cannot see a video, just the still of him holding the raised shutter. So may I ask, did he let go and it stay up, or, did he let go and it crash down?

These shutters are security shutters. My house insurance clearly states that if I have not got shutters then the premium is raised, that is because they prevent break ins. So in a built up area like PdL any attempt at break in imo would be noisy and in need of more than one person or something to prop the window up.

Nina. I agree with you 100%. I too live with exactly the same shutters. I have tried hard to lift them from the outside and couldn't manage more than half an inch (and I'm a fairly fit middle aged woman). They were also making an awful sound. Also like you, we have to make sure our shutters are in good working condition because of insurance. In my opinion, the shutters on that video are faulty or that man has super human strength!

I also agree 100%. The video is totally misleading. First the hullabaloo about the view without the trees and now this IMO completely unnecessary exercise. I'm sorry to say that the Pat Brown trip is not helping much at the moment.

Good morning Genbug and T4two. I cannot access videos so only see the still and of course no sound either, that is why I asked if they stayed up and was there any crashing down. Others who have shutters say they can raise them and gain access to their property without too much of a problem, I/we cannot I am pleased to say as I would be afraid to leave the house knowing that there were so many easy points of entry

Pat is showing that it is possible to raise a shutter in Portugal, not sure it is PdL so will not assume.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by T4two on 19.02.12 11:13

@Nina wrote:
@T4two wrote:
@Genbug wrote:
@Nina wrote:I have shutters at every window small to large and every glass door in my house. I have tried alone, 5 feet 1 and 69 years old to raise them from the outside. Impossible. I have tried with hubby, 5 feet 9 and 79 years old, together and only possible one on each side and the need to prop with bricks. For every inch we raised them they groaned, as we did, and they needed props.

The man on the picture is younger and stronger. I cannot see a video, just the still of him holding the raised shutter. So may I ask, did he let go and it stay up, or, did he let go and it crash down?

These shutters are security shutters. My house insurance clearly states that if I have not got shutters then the premium is raised, that is because they prevent break ins. So in a built up area like PdL any attempt at break in imo would be noisy and in need of more than one person or something to prop the window up.

Nina. I agree with you 100%. I too live with exactly the same shutters. I have tried hard to lift them from the outside and couldn't manage more than half an inch (and I'm a fairly fit middle aged woman). They were also making an awful sound. Also like you, we have to make sure our shutters are in good working condition because of insurance. In my opinion, the shutters on that video are faulty or that man has super human strength!

I also agree 100%. The video is totally misleading. First the hullabaloo about the view without the trees and now this IMO completely unnecessary exercise. I'm sorry to say that the Pat Brown trip is not helping much at the moment.

Good morning Genbug and T4two. I cannot access videos so only see the still and of course no sound either, that is why I asked if they stayed up and was there any crashing down. Others who have shutters say they can raise them and gain access to their property without too much of a problem, I/we cannot I am pleased to say as I would be afraid to leave the house knowing that there were so many easy points of entry

Pat is showing that it is possible to raise a shutter in Portugal,
not sure it is PdL so will not assume.

Hi Nina. It's possible to raise a shutter anywhere - depends on the type of shutter i.e. its construction as well as the condition it is in. That is why I asked some time ago whether the video is demonstrating the actual shutter on the window at 5a and whether it is the same shutter that was in place that night. This question is crucial if this video demonstration is to have any meaning whatsoever. If it's just 'a shutter somewhere in Portugal' or even another shutter on a different apartment window, then it's meaningless and demonstrates an amazing lack of professionalism.
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by C.Edwards on 19.02.12 11:24

I've been hunting around to try and find information on the shutters this morning as it's bugging me. I'm really struggling to find much (official) information. What I have discovered is that there is a whole load of guff out there in internet land about "heavy metal shutters" which is patently wrong judging by the pictures and now video we've seen - always assuming that the shutters haven't been replaced since 2007, of course. I think that's unlikely as there would have been something said about this. It's a holiday apartment at the end of the day and owners don't tend to make unnecessary changes and alterations.

The only thing I've found (so far) in the official files relating to the shutters & window (apart from fingerprint tests, which are irrelevant at this point) is this:
Finally, there also proceeded the detailed analysis of the door and of the windows of the target apartment there not being detected the existence of any clues/traces of break-in/forced entry on them.

From which I think it's safe to assume that a "detailed analysis" is more than a cursory glance and would have found some tiny trace of disturbance of the windowframe if there had been any forcing or propping. Whilst I can also find no official reference to this (apparently) fabled lichen mentioned, the windowsill would not have been spotlessly wiped clean and there would have been obvious disturbance marks on a "detailed analysis". The whole "propped open" argument is therefore complete speculation without any evidence and can be discounted for now at least.

On watching some of the "truth of the lie" documentaries to see if there was anything in them, I'm also struck by how much of that is, well, quite sensationalist, shall we say? Amaral states with conviction that the Smiths identified Gerry, that the McCanns used Calpol to sedate the kids and that Kate's father confirmed this. Well, all those things *may* be true but I'm not aware of any actual corroborating evidence that allows these things to be stated as fact in the way that Amaral does. To state them as facts, as he does, is irresponsible. I had to smile at one point as he reminded me of one of those has-been actors appearing in a news of the world advert from years agao, reading badly off an autocue - you know the ones I mean, the sort of, "and I'll tell you in tomorrow's news of the world how I realised I'd been married to a horse all these years!" kind of thing?

Anyhow - we have a roller garage door and (when it's not locked) the whole thing can obviously be pulled up manually. However, this is only because it's all incredibly powerfully spring loaded to assist as the door is too heavy otherwise. When the door raises, the mechanism at the top of the door uses the spring power to rotate the spindle and the door is effectively wound on to that spindle as it is raised. At one point just after fitting, it went wrong and the spring lost tension. It was then only just possible for me to raise the door as it was so heavy and the winding mechanism didn't wind the door on to the spindle, so the whole canopy kind of loosely rolled over the top and draped down the other side. If I didn't prop it open with a heavy piece of wood, it didn't stay open. I therefore imagine that the blind in the video is much the same as this and when the internal cord isn't used, the ratchet doesn't allow the spindle to turn so the shutter doesn't actually roll on to the spindle, but loosely fills the cavity on top of the window until it's full and the whole thing stops going up. This is why it immediately falls down again when it's let go and would always have been the case even years ago. I can therefore only conclude on the current evidence that it would have been possible to raise the shutters but unless they were wedged open (no trace of this being done and there would have been, however slight) there is no way they could stay open as described.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by C.Edwards on 19.02.12 11:27

By the way, I'm 99% certain that is actually 5a that "PM" is attacking the blind on. Just compare it with official photos and it all matches. It's not far enough down the path to be 5b.

I'm not sure how they (or even IF they) got permission to do this and, if not, should be treading a bit carefully. I doubt that Pat or PM would be daft enough to do something like that without some kind of permission.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by rainbow-fairy on 19.02.12 11:34

T4two raises a very important point. Was it 5A's shutter? If not, it is meaningless. Do we know where this shutter is?
At the end of the day, whichever way the McCanns spin their tales the truth is this; they had a hand in whatever happened to Madeleine. Even if we accept they did no harm themselves, we then have to accept their 'neglect' story. Either way, there is no wriggle room. The McCanns and friends are at the heart of this, as Moita Flores said. That is why they so resisted that reconstruction...

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by rainbow-fairy on 19.02.12 11:45

Apologies C.Edwards, I hadn't seen your replies (my PaYG is sooo slow)
I agree with your assessment. I just don't think it would be possible either. Fgs, even the McCanns desisted with 'shutters' story when the PJ showed it was extremely unlikely it happened that way. They could see it was a daft thing to insist on. Seems to me a bit of a red herring and not really worth looking into too much, imo

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by tigger on 19.02.12 12:17

@C.Edwards wrote:By the way, I'm 99% certain that is actually 5a that "PM" is attacking the blind on. Just compare it with official photos and it all matches. It's not far enough down the path to be 5b.

I'm not sure how they (or even IF they) got permission to do this and, if not, should be treading a bit carefully. I doubt that Pat or PM would be daft enough to do something like that without some kind of permission.

The shutters and the window were thoroughly examined. That's why all the pink dust is on it - for fingerprints. The PJ found lichen on the shutters which was not disturbed and the window was cleaned the previous day by the cleaner. Only fingerprints from Kate were on the window which conformed to the opening of the window.
In the book the shutters are back in action, because it is the first thing Gerry does - check if they roll up. In the bewk they do, in other accounts they only managed to lift them a few inches before they got stuck.
So that's the shutters done and dusted.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by C.Edwards on 19.02.12 12:24

@tigger wrote:
@C.Edwards wrote:By the way, I'm 99% certain that is actually 5a that "PM" is attacking the blind on. Just compare it with official photos and it all matches. It's not far enough down the path to be 5b.

I'm not sure how they (or even IF they) got permission to do this and, if not, should be treading a bit carefully. I doubt that Pat or PM would be daft enough to do something like that without some kind of permission.

The shutters and the window were thoroughly examined. That's why all the pink dust is on it - for fingerprints. The PJ found lichen on the shutters which was not disturbed and the window was cleaned the previous day by the cleaner. Only fingerprints from Kate were on the window which conformed to the opening of the window.
In the book the shutters are back in action, because it is the first thing Gerry does - check if they roll up. In the bewk they do, in other accounts they only managed to lift them a few inches before they got stuck.
So that's the shutters done and dusted.

Well, here's where I'm playing doubting Thomas at present. Where is the proof of the PJ finding lichen? I can't find any reference to it and I'd really appreciate it if you could find it as it would be a handy tool in the armoury! Also the "cleaned window" is only 2nd hand via Amaral - who may well have been told directly that the window was cleaned or he *may* be making the inference from the cleaner's statement, who didn't explicitly state that she had cleaned the window, did she?

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 19.02.12 12:29

I don't remember seeing anything in the PJ files about the lichen, I think it comes for Prof. David Barclay one of Britains top forensic conslutants in Martin Brunt's The Mystery of Madeleine McCann............


Note: On Martin Brunt's documentary 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, aired on 24 December 2007, Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace. Apart from anything else, the window sills in that area are covered in green lichen. The minute you try and scrape over the window sills you would have left marks and we know that the scenes of crime lady, the next morning, was looking for exactly that."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Ribisl on 19.02.12 13:01

Some shutters have a built-in security mechanism so they can't be forced open more than an inch or two from the outside. In holiday apartments, especially in a serviced complex, it's likely that they wouldn't bother with this kind of extra. I am not quite sure however what exactly they are hoping to prove by forcing open the shutter this way, five years after the event.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by C.Edwards on 19.02.12 13:09

candyfloss wrote:I don't remember seeing anything in the PJ files about the lichen, I think it comes for Prof. David Barclay one of Britains top forensic conslutants in Martin Brunt's The Mystery of Madeleine McCann............


Note: On Martin Brunt's documentary 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, aired on 24 December 2007, Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace. Apart from anything else, the window sills in that area are covered in green lichen. The minute you try and scrape over the window sills you would have left marks and we know that the scenes of crime lady, the next morning, was looking for exactly that."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

Are there any pics that show this? The one I found is distinctly lichen-free from what I can see:

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Me on 19.02.12 13:34

@wgbrother wrote:Whatever the reason the potential abductor might have had for opening the shutters, Pat Brown and Peter have put laid to one lie which has been doing the rounds for years. The fact is those shutters are clearly very easy to open from the outside. And if an abductor had decided to enter and leave by that route the fact that the shutters are so easy to open makes it more possible that it happened.

And I just wonder how the curtains went whoosh. Draughts don't come through closed windows do they? Did the abductor just push the window open then? Otherwise how did it happen?

But to accept that possibility you have to rely on Kate & Gerry's word for it, and after all, their statements have been nothing but consistent, clear and unequivocal haven't they???

There is no evidence other than thier statement that the window was open when they got there at 10.00pm.

The other option is that of course the curtains didn't whoosh.

After all when Janey "saw" the "abductor" she didn't see the shutter jemmied or raised, neither did (i think) Russell who walked past later.

Then we examine the issue of the stories given by Kate & Gerry to family members that the shutters were "jemmied".

If those shutters open that easily why use the word "jemmie" and not "lifted"?

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Nina on 19.02.12 14:10

@Ribisl wrote:Some shutters have a built-in security mechanism so they can't be forced open more than an inch or two from the outside. In holiday apartments, especially in a serviced complex, it's likely that they wouldn't bother with this kind of extra. I am not quite sure however what exactly they are hoping to prove by forcing open the shutter this way, five years after the event.

Good afternoon Ribisi. You ask what are they hoping to prove. I have no idea but what they have shown is that shutters can be opened from outside, they are noisey, and that they don't stay up.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 19.02.12 14:30

Interesting tweets from Pat.........





PAT BROWN@ProfilerPatBReply

Coming soon: The evidence does not support Jane Tanner´s sighting. #McCann



4m PAT BROWN@ProfilerPatB

However, I HAVE learned specific details first hand and these details matter. #McCann

6m


PAT BROWN@ProfilerPatB

Not all my conclusions are ªbombshellsª or never previously noted by myself or others. I´m building the probable sequence of events. #McCann


PAT BROWN@ProfilerPatBReply


I am comparing what I have learned in Praia da Luz against all the interviews and crime scene photos which is what is taking time. #McCann




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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 19.02.12 14:34

@C.Edwards wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@C.Edwards wrote:By the way, I'm 99% certain that is actually 5a that "PM" is attacking the blind on. Just compare it with official photos and it all matches. It's not far enough down the path to be 5b.

I'm not sure how they (or even IF they) got permission to do this and, if not, should be treading a bit carefully. I doubt that Pat or PM would be daft enough to do something like that without some kind of permission.

The shutters and the window were thoroughly examined. That's why all the pink dust is on it - for fingerprints. The PJ found lichen on the shutters which was not disturbed and the window was cleaned the previous day by the cleaner. Only fingerprints from Kate were on the window which conformed to the opening of the window.
In the book the shutters are back in action, because it is the first thing Gerry does - check if they roll up. In the bewk they do, in other accounts they only managed to lift them a few inches before they got stuck.
So that's the shutters done and dusted.

Well, here's where I'm playing doubting Thomas at present. Where is the proof of the PJ finding lichen? I can't find any reference to it and I'd really appreciate it if you could find it as it would be a handy tool in the armoury! Also the "cleaned window" is only 2nd hand via Amaral - who may well have been told directly that the window was cleaned or he *may* be making the inference from the cleaner's statement, who didn't explicitly state that she had cleaned the window, did she?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

This link is to translations re: PJ files on the window.

I think the lichen thing was on a documentary where some bloke was saying that there is a fine dusting of lichen and elemental dust etc to external parts of window, like a powdery residue that exists on everything that is outside, and this fine layer showed no sign of disturbance. I can't back this up but will look for some proof. Just a feeling of a distant memory!!

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by tigger on 19.02.12 14:40

C.Edwards: It's all in the PJ files, that's where I've read the statement of the laundry attendant.
Equally, the lichen story. It's a long trawl through all these again, but it is there.
The cleaner also gave a statement re the cleaning of the apartment on Wednesday and the cleaning of the windows.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 19.02.12 14:41

@C.Edwards wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I don't remember seeing anything in the PJ files about the lichen, I think it comes for Prof. David Barclay one of Britains top forensic conslutants in Martin Brunt's The Mystery of Madeleine McCann............


Note: On Martin Brunt's documentary 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, aired on 24 December 2007, Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace. Apart from anything else, the window sills in that area are covered in green lichen. The minute you try and scrape over the window sills you would have left marks and we know that the scenes of crime lady, the next morning, was looking for exactly that."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

Are there any pics that show this? The one I found is distinctly lichen-free from what I can see:


I posted the above earlier re lichen.
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 19.02.12 14:44

candyfloss wrote:Interesting tweets from Pat.........





PAT BROWN@ProfilerPatBReply

Coming soon: The evidence does not support Jane Tanner´s sighting. #McCann




4m PAT BROWN@ProfilerPatB

However, I HAVE learned specific details first hand and these details matter. #McCann

6m


PAT BROWN@ProfilerPatB

Not all my conclusions are ªbombshellsª or never previously noted by myself or others. I´m building the probable sequence of events. #McCann


PAT BROWN@ProfilerPatBReply


I am comparing what I have learned in Praia da Luz against all the interviews and crime scene photos which is what is taking time. #McCann






That sounds as if it is going to be interesting.
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Cristobell on 19.02.12 14:57

Any abductor would first and foremost check if the coast was clear. It wasn't, and the idea of lifting noisy shutters and peeping in is ridiculous, the father was standing outside of the apartment talking to Jez and Jane Tanner was walking towards the apartments.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 19.02.12 15:05

candyfloss wrote:
@C.Edwards wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I don't remember seeing anything in the PJ files about the lichen, I think it comes for Prof. David Barclay one of Britains top forensic conslutants in Martin Brunt's The Mystery of Madeleine McCann............


Note: On Martin Brunt's documentary 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, aired on 24 December 2007, Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace. Apart from anything else, the window sills in that area are covered in green lichen. The minute you try and scrape over the window sills you would have left marks and we know that the scenes of crime lady, the next morning, was looking for exactly that."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

Are there any pics that show this? The one I found is distinctly lichen-free from what I can see:


I posted the above earlier re lichen.

Just dug up that info too!

In addition, on the dispatches documentary 18th October 2007 "Searching for Madeleine" the same Prof Barclay is quoted as following:

"We must be very careful that we are not saying this is actually staging, but it's difficult to see how anybody could have interfered with those shutters from outside without leaving some trace. In fact having looked at them I think it's almost impossible"




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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Me on 19.02.12 15:09

@Cristobell wrote:Any abductor would first and foremost check if the coast was clear. It wasn't, and the idea of lifting noisy shutters and peeping in is ridiculous, the father was standing outside of the apartment talking to Jez and Jane Tanner was walking towards the apartments.

And if memory serves me this whole issue of the shutter relates to the window, not just by the main front door to 5A, but in full sight of all the other main front doors for the other apartments in that block.

So we are to believe that an abductor would enter a window in view of the main point of entry for every other apartment in that block.

Unless said abductor believed that every other holiday maker left their patio door open and entered via their unlocked patio doors as well. nah

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What is certain is that since the start of the investigation there were  incongruent and even contradictory situations concerning the witness statements; the telephone records of calls that were made and received on mobile phones that belonged to the couple and to the group of friends that were on holidays with them; the movements of people right after the disappearance of the little girl was noticed, concerning the state in which the bedroom from where the child disappeared from was found (closed window? open window? partially open window?) etc., and the mystery would only become even thicker due to the clues that were left by the already mentioned sniffer dogs. - The Words of a JUDGE in relation to the McCanns

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:15

@tigger wrote:
@wgbrother wrote:
candyfloss wrote:He couldn't peep in cos the curtains were closed, we have been told. They went whoosh!!

The curtains being closed does not prevent him opening the shutters and looking. It might if there is no gap prevent him from seeing much but he wouldn't know that till he opened the shutters would he.

So you are wrong. He could peep as soon as he lifted the shutter. He might just not get to see what he wanted to see. But then again he might. There might have been a gap. Or the window might not have been locked and he might have opened it. What caused the whoosh if he didn't open it?

How very tiresome. wgbrother. 'Purporting a sort of handyman abductor really doesn't work with the available evidence, which is:

pretty well anything would have left a mark on the sill since it was covered in lichen - there were no marks
the testimony of Diane Webster shows that the shutters could not be raised from outside - that very night - it was the first thing Gerry tried after the alarm was raised - they got stuck
how could the abductor know that that particular window gave onto the children's room -
even if the windows were not locked, these sliding windows have no handhold to move them from outside so the abductor would have needed a suction pad as well as the long stick -
There would have been marks of either gloves or fingerprints left on the outside of the window.
The only prints were those of Kate on the inside -
Manipulating the blind and the windows would make more than enough noise to wake the children -
If he wanted to look around, there was little risk in just walking through the patio window, since - according to the McCs - he must have been watching them, he'd know where they were.

The entry or exit through the window, on the basis of evidence gathered by the police and sheer common sense, never happened.



LIchen? What lichen? There is no lichen now or in any of the PJ or other photos from 2007? If you or anyone else can provide one photo of lichen on those window sills I might just start to think it existed. Till then I don't.

Marks of rubber gloves? Somehow I doubt it. And Tanner would not have seen flesh rubber gloves would she?

It took PM about 3 secs to lift the shutter noisily. Would probably take six seconds to raise it with less noise.

The carpark was pretty dead at that time and almost unseen from the road or across the road.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:18

@happychick wrote:If the abductor really did use a piece of wood to prop open the shutter and was lucky enough to find the window open and entered the apartment that way why did he kill Madeleine before abducting her? Why did he kill her behind the sofa and leave her there long enough for cadaver odour to develop (90-120 mins, bearing in mind he only had a small window of opportunity) then move her to her parents wardrobe and then the verandah, then the flowerbed. And wasn't he also hiding behind the door when Gerry did his check? All this in 3 minutes?

So, let's assume he did all this in the small window of opportunity. He then came back four weeks later and put dead Madeleine in the car that her parents hired.



Cdaver odour or blood? Eddie alerts to dried blood from living humans or didn't you know that? Did you know dried blood was found on the key fob of the car that dog alerted to? Did you notice the dog alerted near the front of the car where the key fob would be hanging not the back?

Did you not know that traces of blood were found in the apt?

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 19.02.12 15:20

@wgbrother wrote:Whatever the reason the potential abductor might have had for opening the shutters, Pat Brown and Peter have put laid to one lie which has been doing the rounds for years. The fact is those shutters are clearly very easy to open from the outside. And if an abductor had decided to enter and leave by that route the fact that the shutters are so easy to open makes it more possible that it happened.

And I just wonder how the curtains went whoosh. Draughts don't come through closed windows do they? Did the abductor just push the window open then? Otherwise how did it happen?


Can I ask wgbrother how you know the name of the man is Peter?
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by wgbrother on 19.02.12 15:23

@aquila wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote:Just want to make a couple of points before this thread reaches 20 pages of ever decreasing circles.

If this blind was not locked from the inside, it only proves that it could be lifted externally, rather than the jemmying porky we heard at the outset of the story.

If they cannot be locked from the inside then they are of no value whatsoever other than as a sunshade. This is the crux of it. Was the blind locked or not locked? If one could stroll up to a blind like this and simply lift it, then they are quite pointless accessories.

Forget some bloke staking out the joint with a piece of wood to use as a prop, just too stupid to contemplate - more likely an accomplice would be needed to hold it open or help receive a child being passed through (still too conspicuous to contemplate with any degree of seriousness)

Unless this blind was the one at 5a, still has limited proof of anything.

Well done to Pat and the team for establishing that an unlocked blind can be opened from the outside, because it dispels the story that has been going round for years that it is not possible to open a roller blind externally.

But moving on, if the blind was unlocked, and the internal window either open or unsecured, it does nothing to bolster the McCanns credibility, because when alls said and done they would still have left 3 infants in an unsecured ground floor room with a window looking out onto a public road. It does nothing to truly help their case. Particularly as there were no forensic traces tying the shutter into the case. Only Kates fingerprints.



I'm glad Pat has established that the blinds can be opened from the outside. I had the same blinds (there I am saying it again and it's not out of smugness) and broke into my own house twice and was burgled twice. These blinds don't lock, they have a mechanism on the inside that controls the pull strap so when there is no tension on the strap it locks and the blind stays in that position. When I broke into my own house however, because I didn't use the strap to open the shutter from the inside there was a lot of pulling up and down to get the inside mechanism to lock the strap and stop the shutter falling down. Anyway it was very noisy. I lived up a mountain so no-one would have heard me but I remember how noisy it was. In a complex at a quiet time of the season this would have certainly been an unusual noise especially at night when the streets were deserted and not much traffic noise.

Smokeandmirrors, I agree that the forensic evidence discounts all of this anyway. The undisturbed lichen, the fingerprints the lack of disturbance makes us go around in circles, discussing this topic. I'm just really glad it has been investigated and shown for what it is.

There is one thing I must add to this. The PJ, yes, those police officers living in their own country, with their own experience of burglary cases and shutters common to their own homes/holiday apartments etc, have been IMO treated like 'sardine munchers'. They must have turned up to many burglaries in their time and from experience know whether entry to that apartment had happened through the shutters. That says it all really.

What lichen? There is none in any photos. Where does this idea of lichen come from? Can someone point me to where it is mentioned in the police files?

And lack of fingerprints could simply mean that the person or people wore gloves.

But as I have said before I don't actually think entry was gained this way. I am just explaining that it could have been. There are other reasons the shutters might have been lifted.

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