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Pat Brown - What about the Window

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by PeterMac on 21.02.12 11:57

@aquila wrote:SNIP there is almost unanimous agreement that you can't open the door from the outside if the shutters are down.
And if you tried to the noise would be considerably more than letting yourself in at the front door with the key. Which they said was too noisy.,
And every one of the tapas 7 who did the visits would have had to do exactly the same thing.
Lift the shutter, hold it up with one hand, or forehead, (or stick) whilst opening the patio door, duck underneath, and then let the shutter crash down again once inside.
And getting out would be even more fun.
Check the shutter is fully down (because if it is up the strap would hold it in place), open patio door, crunch shutter up, duck underneath, slide patio door closed whilst still supporting the shutter, and then let it crash down again.
How much easier to use the front door.
Except that there would then be the Ceremony of the Keys.

And so far as I remember there is no reference to that in the statements. Nor to the Ceremony of the Stick.




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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by aiyoyo on 21.02.12 12:48

@tigger wrote:
@Ribisl wrote:In early May in PDL the sun sets around 20.30. All the contradicting statements made by the group aside, it seems to me more likely that MCs would have left the shutters open in the patio. The patio is facing the interior of the complex which is like an extended garden, the children are sleeping inside, you want to be able to pop in and out to check to make sure they are ok. Leaving them behind in an apartment with all the shutters down would be like shutting them up in an outhouse and that just doesn't feel right at all.

Now you got me speculating, so I will stop right here.

Thanks Candyfloss. Since all information on shutters were linked to the window, I'd assumed that only the windows were shuttered. But I don't believe the shutters on the patio doors were down. That would be an absolute firetrap for three children. The neglect was rubbish anyway, I would say 5a was empty that evening. The twins weren't there - brought in later from 'their own apartment' as Gerry so helpfully said when they were taken back there.
So was RO instructed in saying the shutters were down on the patio windows and this statement became inconvenient at a later date?
So the window was also chosen because it wasn't visible from the bar.
My head hurts! I'm going to have to go back to all the doors an windows and make a timeline.

I dont believe the shutter on the patio doors were down, not if they were using the patio doors frequency as access point each and every day (short cut to the amenities it seems).
People with shutter on patio area as a norm do not shut it down unless they were going on long trip or vacation ;and securing up the property. Otherwise it's like living in prison because the shutters cut off lights plus it's not very sightly looking from the inside.


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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Cheshire Cat on 21.02.12 13:08

@PeterMac wrote:
@aquila wrote:SNIP there is almost unanimous agreement that you can't open the door from the outside if the shutters are down.
And if you tried to the noise would be considerably more than letting yourself in at the front door with the key. Which they said was too noisy.,
And every one of the tapas 7 who did the visits would have had to do exactly the same thing.
Lift the shutter, hold it up with one hand, or forehead, (or stick) whilst opening the patio door, duck underneath, and then let the shutter crash down again once inside.
And getting out would be even more fun.
Check the shutter is fully down (because if it is up the strap would hold it in place), open patio door, crunch shutter up, duck underneath, slide patio door closed whilst still supporting the shutter, and then let it crash down again.
How much easier to use the front door.
Except that there would then be the Ceremony of the Keys.

And so far as I remember there is no reference to that in the statements. Nor to the Ceremony of the Stick.




Peter - what is the 'Ceremony of the Keys', do you mean if the front door was locked there would have to be a transfer of the key each time a different person went to check?
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Daisy on 21.02.12 13:09

@C.Edwards wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:The shutters on the patio doors CANNOT have been down - IF anyone used that same patio door to go inside - because they can only be raised by pulling the strap which is on the inside. Why he said this is another mystery.

Hi PeterMac. Was this tested, do you know? I ask as I used to think that the bedroom window shutters could only be opened from the inside with the strap and we know what happened recently...

Have you any idea how heavy the shutters are on a full size patio door/window as opposed to the shutters on a small bedroom window? No comparasion really.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 21.02.12 13:32

@PeterMac wrote:
@aquila wrote:SNIP there is almost unanimous agreement that you can't open the door from the outside if the shutters are down.
And if you tried to the noise would be considerably more than letting yourself in at the front door with the key. Which they said was too noisy.,
And every one of the tapas 7 who did the visits would have had to do exactly the same thing.
Lift the shutter, hold it up with one hand, or forehead, (or stick) whilst opening the patio door, duck underneath, and then let the shutter crash down again once inside.
And getting out would be even more fun.
Check the shutter is fully down (because if it is up the strap would hold it in place), open patio door, crunch shutter up, duck underneath, slide patio door closed whilst still supporting the shutter, and then let it crash down again.
How much easier to use the front door.
Except that there would then be the Ceremony of the Keys.

And so far as I remember there is no reference to that in the statements. Nor to the Ceremony of the Stick.




Probably less a stick and more of a railway sleeper would be needed for the patio shutter. Unless in order to keep it fun you used a stick - well more likely a small branch - then it could prop up the patio shutter, presuming it could take the weight and you could limbo under the shutter...
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Ceremony of the keys

Post by Guest on 21.02.12 13:33

I think that PeterMac might have been referring light-heartedly to the Tower of London.

http://golondon.about.com/od/londonforfree/fr/CeremonyoftheKeys.htm
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by PeterMac on 21.02.12 14:23

If any of the access points was locked then the keys would have had to have been handed over to each checker in sequence.
Is there a reference to this having happened ?
If the patio shutters were down, and had to be forced upwards from outside, then a stick would have had to have been available to hold them up whilst the checker grovelled about trying to get in. And the said stick would have either been handed over, or placed in a special position which would have been communicated to the next checker.
Is there a reference to this having happened ?


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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Cheshire Cat on 21.02.12 14:33

@PeterMac wrote:If any of the access points was locked then the keys would have had to have been handed over to each checker in sequence.
Is there a reference to this having happened ?
If the patio shutters were down, and had to be forced upwards from outside, then a stick would have had to have been available to hold them up whilst the checker grovelled about trying to get in. And the said stick would have either been handed over, or placed in a special position which would have been communicated to the next checker.
Is there a reference to this having happened ?


Thank you Peter.
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Daisy on 21.02.12 14:42

@PeterMac wrote:If any of the access points was locked then the keys would have had to have been handed over to each checker in sequence.
Is there a reference to this having happened ?
If the patio shutters were down, and had to be forced upwards from outside, then a stick would have had to have been available to hold them up whilst the checker grovelled about trying to get in. And the said stick would have either been handed over, or placed in a special position which would have been communicated to the next checker.
Is there a reference to this having happened ?


No, there isn't any reference is there? I haven't come across any mention of this happening in any statement.

strange how all the other members of the tapas group locked down their apartments of an evening, only the McCann's left their property, valuables & CHILDREN in such a vulnerable & insecure environment.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by PeterMac on 21.02.12 14:44

@Daisy wrote:SN INP
strange how all the other members of the tapas group locked down their apartments of an evening, only the McCann's left their property, valuables & CHILDREN in such a vulnerable & insecure environment.
Or, to be more precise "only the McCann's claim that they left their property, valuables & children in such a vulnerable & insecure environment."

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by jd on 21.02.12 14:49

I am catching up a bit and am a bit mystified with the shutters Pat showed in her video and have never seen these kind of shutters able to pull up & fall down from the outside like this ever. Do we know if this was the state of these shutters 5 years ago or how they are now?

What isn't making sense to me is the 'mechanism' of the shutters from this video, the chord to pull them up from the inside is taut within the shutter as well as the pulling chord, and if it was loose within the shutter (as it has to be in this video to be able to pull it up & fall down like that from the outside) you would not be able to pull the shutters up inside using the chord, not without lots and lots of pulling to make the chord taut at least....If this was the state of the shutter 5 years ago then they were broken already, the chord inside was broke as mechanically they have to have been

And if they were, there is no way any potential abductor would enter or escape through that "small window of opportunity" if the shutters kept falling down like that. How would you get in and out by yourself let alone stealing a child!! And if for arguments he did, he would have left fingerprints/DNA with the huge amount of struggling trying to get through that window carrying a child with shutters keeping on falling down on him. It is impossible not to. But as there were no marks or fingerprints except kates on the window, nobody in their right mind could seriously believe any potential abductor would have used that window. And a stick to hold the shutters up is really not realistic at all sorry

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by rainbow-fairy on 21.02.12 16:25

Right. Having just been on-line properly I've FINALLY watched the actual video on page one.
Ok, head on the block (I'm sure wgbrother or C.Edwards will soon tell me if I'm wrong ;Wink) NO WAY is there enough room for an 'abductor' to get in that aperture. When the shutter is raised as high as it can be until jamming, it leaves less than half the height of window, and half the width, to get through. P
Pull the other one, it has bells on (I'm sure I said that before, lol)
As for the ridiculous idea of 'propping a stick slightly off-centre to hold the window up' that would leave even less room. Not feasible no way, no how.
I fail to see how wgbrother thought this helped the McCann's abduction tale at all. This video is yet another nail in the coffin. Pity your average Scum reader won't get to see it!

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Post by russiandoll on 21.02.12 16:43

more than 1 statement from Gerry about the window being closed. Does not look like sliding it from the outside would allow it to open, is it not the case that it opened from inside only? so regardless of ease of raising shutters and fitting into the window opening, if the window was closed even if unlocked, could it be opened from outside? will read the files yet again as maybe it is the lock that prevents opening from exterior. if unlocked maybe possible. Have read that an adult male could not fit into the opening even if window slid open to its widest, however am sure I saw a video or still of Potruguese detective climbing inside, will try to find that. I wish the man in Pats video had also tried sliding window open from outside if closed but unlocked. and was it PMac I wonder........he certainly isnt saying so if it was !

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by rainbow-fairy on 21.02.12 17:15

@russiandoll wrote: more than 1 statement from Gerry about the window being closed. Does not look like sliding it from the outside would allow it to open, is it not the case that it opened from inside only? so regardless of ease of raising shutters and fitting into the window opening, if the window was closed even if unlocked, could it be opened from outside? will read the files yet again as maybe it is the lock that prevents opening from exterior. if unlocked maybe possible, but as you say, no way could an adult male even if smaller than average, fit into the opening if window slid open to its widest. wish the man in video had also tried sliding window open.from outside if closed but unlocked.
Hey russiandoll, thank you for the back-up!
Re the sliding of the window: I could be wrong, but it looked to me as though he did try to slide it but it wasn't possible? As for if it was locked or just closed, I couldn't say... I wouldve thought it wouldn't be possible either way, personally.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by russiandoll on 21.02.12 17:44

he touches the centre section of window frame, briefly. I really want to find the photo of the detective trying to gain access via that window....I am sure I saw him manage to get inside.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 21.02.12 19:08

Interesting tweets from lime_harry who is the journalist publishing the interview with Pat on 2th Feb ......

Journalist on weekly newspaper in the Algarve, very interested in the McCann story and the truth.

Lagos, Algarve, Portugal




lime_harry@lime_harryReply
Retweet

@eckieneylon Interview with PatB to be published on Thursday 24 Feb on http://www.algarve123.com, if you are interested



jackie neylon@jackieneylon

@justice4maddie @JillyCL @zante03 Yes Pat has done much more.Using her own time and money for an unknown child and being abused for doing so




lime_harry@lime_harry


@jackieneylon @justice4maddie @JillyCL @zante03 PatB is an incredibly honest woman trying to safeguard the handling of missing person cases


More here.........

http://twitter.com/#!/lime_harry
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 21.02.12 19:13

candyfloss wrote:Interesting tweets from lime_harry who is the journalist publishing the interview with Pat on 2th Feb ......

Journalist on weekly newspaper in the Algarve, very interested in the McCann story and the truth.

Lagos, Algarve, Portugal




lime_harry@lime_harryReply
Retweet

@eckieneylon Interview with PatB to be published on Thursday 24 Feb on http://www.algarve123.com, if you are interested



jackie neylon@jackieneylon

@justice4maddie @JillyCL @zante03 Yes Pat has done much more.Using her own time and money for an unknown child and being abused for doing so




lime_harry@lime_harry


@jackieneylon @justice4maddie @JillyCL @zante03 PatB is an incredibly honest woman trying to safeguard the handling of missing person cases


More here.........

http://twitter.com/#!/lime_harry

Thursday the 23 or Friday 24 ? Since Thursday 24 do not exist this year smilie
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Guest on 22.02.12 23:31

Article in Algarve 123 is posted but need a subscription to view it all - anyone have a sub?


Pat Brown
American Criminal Profiler probes McCann mystery

She ar rived in Lis bon from Wash ing ton, D.C wheel ing a travel-worn suit case and car ry ing a metal de tector. In side her suit­case, she’d packed a soil probe and a spade. Pat Brown - Crim­inal Pro filer, TV com ment ator and au thor - was on a mis sion. As so cial net work ing sites buzzed with the news – split between those that wished her well, and those that vo ci fer ously didn’t – Brown was un deterred. “This has noth ing to do with […] »
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Cheshire Cat on 23.02.12 1:33

Stewie wrote:Article in Algarve 123 is posted but need a subscription to view it all - anyone have a sub?

Pat Brown
American Criminal Profiler probes McCann mystery

She ar rived in Lis bon from Wash ing ton, D.C wheel ing a travel-worn suit case and car ry ing a metal de tector. In side her suit­case, she’d packed a soil probe and a spade. Pat Brown - Crim­inal Pro filer, TV com ment ator and au thor - was on a mis sion. As so cial net work ing sites buzzed with the news – split between those that wished her well, and those that vo ci fer ously didn’t – Brown was un deterred. “This has noth ing to do with […] »

Little bit more....

So what’s the bottom line? Will this case ever be solved? “If it could be proved that Gerry McCann was at the dinner table in the Tapas restaurant between 9.15 and 9.55” (when a man looking apparently very much like Gerry McCann was seen by an Irish family carrying a child in pink pyjamas over his shoulder as he walked in the direction of the beach) “then that would be proof that there was an abduction”.

“If the cadaver dogs were right” (brought in three months after Madeleine went missing, and which reacted positively to the possibility that a dead body had lain in the apartment) “then there was no abduction”.

And for those two details to be established, we’re back to the reasoning of former police officer in charge of the case, Gonçalo Amaral: there has to be a reconstruction of that fateful night of 3rd May 2007 – using all parties involved.

“But so far as we know, that doesn’t look like happening any day soon!” Brown shakes her head. “I honestly don’t know what the Metropolitan Police are doing with their current review of the case - which is costing millions of pounds. As far as I can see, they haven’t started where they should have started – with crime scene reconstruction.

“That’s where there’s the best crack at getting to the truth!”
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by rainbow-fairy on 23.02.12 7:26

From the Algarve 123 article -
"So what’s the bottom line? Will this case ever be solved? “If it could be proved that Gerry McCann was at the dinner table in the Tapas restaurant between 9.15 and 9.55” (when a man looking apparently very much like Gerry McCann was seen by an Irish family carrying a child in pink pyjamas over his shoulder as he walked in the direction of the beach) “then that would be proof that there was an abduction”.

I'm afraid to say I think Pat's 'burden of proof' is ridiculously low. I don't see how proving Gerry was at the table proves an abduction? Seems to me she has made a couple of fatal assumptions;
1)The Smith sighting is genuine,
2)Correct that it was Gerry
3)The carried child was Madeleine

If all points above were 100% verified, then yes, I'd agree with her but how could you possibly verify them?
What does 'Gerry at dinner Table' prove?
A: Nothing! Maddie could've been moved by any of the other Tapas, person unknown to us but not the T9, or maybe (and most likely, IMO) Maddie was already in another location by the night of the 3rd!
I've done my best to explain my thinking here but I've only just woken up, so if I've made a big muck-up please put me right!
I admire Pat, greatly, but tbh if these are her conclusions then I'm very disappointed...

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by tigger on 23.02.12 8:16

RF and RD:
Quite worrying. I don't agree with Pat's conclusion at all.
1. The Tapas would give him any alibi and probably have done so.
2. The waiters at the Tapas have given conflicting statements.
3. Even though the Tapas tried to give him full cover, there are many inconsistencies in their statements.
Imo it can never be proved Gerry was at the table between those 9.30 and 10.00.

We do have: the Smiths' sighting and description - including the beige,button trousers.
We do have photographs of the 5a crime scene; one with a pair of beige trousers thrown on the bed (and a later photograph with G wearing them)
This tells me that G came back to 5a and changed his clothes - the dark top and the trousers - in a hurry.
The following crime scene photos do not have the trousers on the bed.

So one could surmise that: Gerry did his abduction run but was unfortunate in being seen by a group of 8/9 people all around him - instead of on one side of the road. He must have expected the Smiths' to come forward the following day.
Still, the sensible thing was to change into clothes other than those the 'abductor' was seen in. Jane Tanner also gave a description of the same type of clothes so that took care of it being the same abductor. The T7 took care of his alibi at the table. He was safe enough.

Besides, it still doesn't explain the cadaver scent, the blood, the car and a whole lot of other facts.




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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by Cheshire Cat on 23.02.12 8:24

@rainbow-fairy wrote:From the Algarve 123 article -
"So what’s the bottom line? Will this case ever be solved? “If it could be proved that Gerry McCann was at the dinner table in the Tapas restaurant between 9.15 and 9.55” (when a man looking apparently very much like Gerry McCann was seen by an Irish family carrying a child in pink pyjamas over his shoulder as he walked in the direction of the beach) “then that would be proof that there was an abduction”.

I'm afraid to say I think Pat's 'burden of proof' is ridiculously low. I don't see how proving Gerry was at the table proves an abduction? Seems to me she has made a couple of fatal assumptions;
1)The Smith sighting is genuine,
2)Correct that it was Gerry
3)The carried child was Madeleine

If all points above were 100% verified, then yes, I'd agree with her but how could you possibly verify them?
What does 'Gerry at dinner Table' prove?
A: Nothing! Maddie could've been moved by any of the other Tapas, person unknown to us but not the T9, or maybe (and most likely, IMO) Maddie was already in another location by the night of the 3rd!
I've done my best to explain my thinking here but I've only just woken up, so if I've made a big muck-up please put me right!
I admire Pat, greatly, but tbh if these are her conclusions then I'm very disappointed...

So what’s the bottom line? Will this case ever be solved? “If it could be proved that Gerry McCann was at the dinner table in the Tapas restaurant between 9.15 and 9.55” (when a man looking apparently very much like Gerry McCann was seen by an Irish family carrying a child in pink pyjamas over his shoulder as he walked in the direction of the beach) “then that would be proof that there was an abduction”.

“If the cadaver dogs were right” (brought in three months after Madeleine went missing, and which reacted positively to the possibility that a dead body had lain in the apartment) “then there was no abduction”.

And for those two details to be established, we’re back to the reasoning of former police officer in charge of the case, Gonçalo Amaral: there has to be a reconstruction of that fateful night of 3rd May 2007 – using all parties involved.


Pat gives two conditions - she also says that the Cadaver dogs would need to be wrong for there to be an abduction. Remember Pat has met with Amaral where I am sure the Smith sighting would have been discussed. I do believe that the Smith sighting was of Gerry McCann and it is vital to the McCann's to persuade sceptics that it was not G that the Smiths saw. Of course there are McCann sceptics who do not believe it was Gerry that Mr Smith saw. I have listened to their argument and it is reasoned and logical but I continue to believe it was Gerry that the Smiths saw.
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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by PeterMac on 23.02.12 8:36

Full text

Pat Brown
American Criminal Profiler probes McCann mystery
She arrived in Lisbon from Washington, D.C wheeling a travel-worn suitcase and carrying a metal detector. Inside her suitcase, she’d packed a soil probe and a spade. Pat Brown - Criminal Profiler, TV commentator and author - was on a mission. As social networking sites buzzed with the news – split between those that wished her well, and those that vociferously didn’t – Brown was undeterred. “This has nothing to do with self-publicity. I am simply trying to get to the truth”. We caught up with her when Brown arrived in the Algarve after meetings in the capital with Gonçalo Amaral and others who have put their reputations on the line in an attempt to solve the millennium’s greatest mystery.

One of the first questions we asked was why an American criminal profiler and TV personality felt the need cross the Atlantic to Portugal to investigate a missing person’s case that was almost five years old?
“Two reasons,” she told us. “One is that I have always been passionately involved in a search for the truth. It’s not something that makes me popular, but it’s something I care about above my own reputation as this case threatens to prejudice the way missing person’s cases are handled.
“We have a situation here where there are two parents who have refused to cooperate fully with a police investigation – who have refused to answer questions, who have changed their stories and fled from jurisdiction – but who have then taken their story - in the way they want us to believe it - to the media, asking people to donate money to fund a search for a child who, statistically-speaking, is almost certainly dead!
“I can understand bereaved parents doing some crazy things, but never have I seen parents like this before! Their actions have opened the door to speculation.
“My other reason is to show support for Gonçalo Amaral and freedom of speech”. Amaral faces trial for defamation of the McCanns over the publication of his book, “The Truth of the Lie” in which he maintains that three-year-old Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5a on the night of May 3rd 2007. His trial was originally set for February 9th -10th, but postponed. Brown decided to take advantage of her booked flight to see if she could learn anything new by visiting the crime scene.
And did she?
“Yes, absolutely. I discovered more about the situation on the street; I learnt about the locks on the doors and how they work; how the shutter and window would be impossible to open from the outside; about the kind of terrain here – but my line of thought has remained the same: there are two simple answers to this crime.
“The simplest answer is that Madeleine was abducted by a local predator (in which case she would almost certainly have been killed within two to three hours) – and the second simplest answer is that she died in a tragic accident and her body was disposed of.
“To eliminate the second simplest answer, we have to establish without doubt that there was an abduction – and that hasn’t happened”.
Does she believe, like Gonçalo Amaral, that what’s needed is a reconstruction of the night Madeleine went missing?
“Hell yes! And that’s what they have consistently refused to go along with – all of them: the McCanns and the rest of the Tapas group! The McCanns particularly have been their own worst enemies. They could provide answers in a number of ways: by taking part in a reconstruction, by submitting to polygraph testing. You see, they have to be eliminated in order for the first simplest answer to be the highest probability!
“Another aspect that truly bothers me is the promotion of mythology. Sex rings have become the new bogeyman. Every parent has been made to fear that their child could be grabbed by a sex ring – but sex rings do not operate in hotel complexes!
If a sex ring wants a child, it grabs one off the streets in some poor neighbourhood. It doesn’t snatch a middle-class child from its bed while on holiday, particularly when - if the stories we’re led to believe are true - all the parents were jumping up and down from their dinner table every 15 minutes to check on their children! Any abductor would be lying in wait thinking “when the heck am I going to get a chance to break into an apartment!” Brown’s experience of profiling began when she was already in her 40s and had been working as a sign language interpreter on hospital trauma wards for over a decade. During those years she “saw everything”: gunshot wounds, stab and rape casualties, victims and villains. The experience taught her a lot about life, crime and circumstance – and then she found herself having rented a room for four weeks to a man she believed should have been “a person-of-interest” in a brutal sexual homicide. This unsettling experience was the start of her interest in profiling and how homicide cases are handled. It took six years for the police to bring the man in for questioning and declare him a suspect in the murder – and it led to Brown specialising in a profession that invariably finds itself called in way too late.
“One of my ambitions is to make profilers a prerequisite on all police forces,” she told us. “We need to be called in right at the beginning. Crime scenes need better handling”.
“If parents were separated when police first arrived on the scene, along with everyone else involved, it would be much easier to verify everyone’s stories - and a true timeline could be established.
“In this case, the McCanns and their friends were given days to confer with each other. The result is that in order to look better maybe, or to explain things that are embarrassing, they may have screwed up the timeline to the extent that they look guilty. Or, if the McCanns were involved in the death of their daughter, they had a chance to get their stories straight”.
So what’s the bottom line? Will this case ever be solved? “If it could be proved that Gerry McCann was at the dinner table in the Tapas restaurant between 9.15 and 9.55” (when a man looking apparently very much like Gerry McCann was seen by an Irish family carrying a child in pink pyjamas over his shoulder as he walked in the direction of the beach) “then that would be proof that there was an abduction”.
“If the cadaver dogs were right” (brought in three months after Madeleine went missing, and which reacted positively to the possibility that a dead body had lain in the apartment) “then there was no abduction”.
And for those two details to be established, we’re back to the reasoning of former police officer in charge of the case, Gonçalo Amaral: there has to be a reconstruction of that fateful night of 3rd May 2007 – using all parties involved.
“But so far as we know, that doesn’t look like happening any day soon!” Brown shakes her head. “I honestly don’t know what the Metropolitan Police are doing with their current review of the case - which is costing millions of pounds. As far as I can see, they haven’t started where they should have started – with crime scene reconstruction.
“That’s where there’s the best crack at getting to the truth!”

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by rainbow-fairy on 23.02.12 8:43

@Cheshire Cat wrote:
@rainbow-fairy wrote:From the Algarve 123 article -
"So what’s the bottom line? Will this case ever be solved? “If it could be proved that Gerry McCann was at the dinner table in the Tapas restaurant between 9.15 and 9.55” (when a man looking apparently very much like Gerry McCann was seen by an Irish family carrying a child in pink pyjamas over his shoulder as he walked in the direction of the beach) “then that would be proof that there was an abduction”.

I'm afraid to say I think Pat's 'burden of proof' is ridiculously low. I don't see how proving Gerry was at the table proves an abduction? Seems to me she has made a couple of fatal assumptions;
1)The Smith sighting is genuine,
2)Correct that it was Gerry
3)The carried child was Madeleine

If all points above were 100% verified, then yes, I'd agree with her but how could you possibly verify them?
What does 'Gerry at dinner Table' prove?
A: Nothing! Maddie could've been moved by any of the other Tapas, person unknown to us but not the T9, or maybe (and most likely, IMO) Maddie was already in another location by the night of the 3rd!
I've done my best to explain my thinking here but I've only just woken up, so if I've made a big muck-up please put me right!
I admire Pat, greatly, but tbh if these are her conclusions then I'm very disappointed...

So what’s the bottom line? Will this case ever be solved? “If it could be proved that Gerry McCann was at the dinner table in the Tapas restaurant between 9.15 and 9.55” (when a man looking apparently very much like Gerry McCann was seen by an Irish family carrying a child in pink pyjamas over his shoulder as he walked in the direction of the beach) “then that would be proof that there was an abduction”.

“If the cadaver dogs were right” (brought in three months after Madeleine went missing, and which reacted positively to the possibility that a dead body had lain in the apartment) “then there was no abduction”.

And for those two details to be established, we’re back to the reasoning of former police officer in charge of the case, Gonçalo Amaral: there has to be a reconstruction of that fateful night of 3rd May 2007 – using all parties involved.


Pat gives two conditions - she also says that the Cadaver dogs would need to be wrong for there to be an abduction. Remember Pat has met with Amaral where I am sure the Smith sighting would have been discussed. I do believe that the Smith sighting was of Gerry McCann and it is vital to the McCann's to persuade sceptics that it was not G that the Smiths saw. Of course there are McCann sceptics who do not believe it was Gerry that Mr Smith saw. I have listened to their argument and it is reasoned and logical but I continue to believe it was Gerry that the Smiths saw.
Cheshire Cat, I am with you re the Smith sighting. 100% genuine, and 100% GMcC IMO. I've posted elsewhere here why I believe the McCanns were left with no choice but to link 'bundleman' and 'Smith' - even though it is ridiculous - however, I still think Pat has dropped the ball here.
Whilst I totally believe a reconstruction is absolutely vital, there are so many odd variables.
IF Gerry proven to be at table, does this automatically mean the Smiths are mistaken / lying? Even if yes, does this PROVE Maddie was abducted? No - she (imo) was not in 5A by that time to BE abducted... Even if she was there, it could've been one of the others.
Does that make sense?
I also have concerns about 'IF the cadaver dogs were wrong' - 1)How could you prove that? A recovered live Maddie??? 2)even IF they are wrong, it wouldn't prove an abduction happened.
Either I have missed something here or Pat has made a few too may assumptions. I'm not trying to do her down as I am a great fan of hers. I follow her by e-mail and have posted in her defence many times.
I think its probably best to wait for her report, as this is only a media interview - she could've been misquoted.
I'm awaiting her report with baited breath... I'm sure her ideas will be explained more fully there.

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Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

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Re: Pat Brown - What about the Window

Post by jd on 23.02.12 8:57

I think Pats talks a lot of sense overall in what is said in this article. Relating to what really happened she has only said 'if's" and 'buts" & not given any info on what she has actually discovered, but the general 'overview' of a crime makes complete sense & what I would expect from a criminal profiler

I don't believe the Smith sighting at all...to me it is clear and obvious as day is light that this was made up to help Murat

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