Re: A TENSE SITUATION by Dr Martin Roberts

by Monty Heck 31.03.14 10:52

BlackCatBoogie wrote:
Monty Heck wrote:
russiandoll wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
Doug D wrote:And then thoughtful parent KM says in KH1 (p.45):

'Though I envied David & Fiona their sea view, being on the ground floor meant we didn't have to worry about the childrens safety on a balcony'

so a fall from their balcony/patio of maybe 10/12 feet wouldn't matter then.

The balcony is right over the sharp stone steps as can be seen here.......

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Very dangerous to a child imo.

There is not a detective in the world who would accept that a 3 year old was allowed access to that BALCONY area via an unlocked door, especially by parents who were experienced medics and who would have seen during their A and E training many examples of childhood trauma, mostly accidents in the home, such as falls.
Therefore the door was locked, or there were means used to ensure no waking and wandering.

eta first thing on the Met home page in big letters

New appeal following the disappearance of Madeleine McCann
no mention of the A word here
(Bold mine)
No question that this is a balcony and at least as dangerous as the Paynes' (if not more so due to the steps below), therefore KMcC's statement that they had no need to worry about it because they had a "ground floor" apartment is nonsense. Leaving such young children alone in that accommodation would not and could not have "felt so safe" to anyone of even average intellect unless, as you say RD, means to ensure no waking and wandering were used.

This IMO is the crux of the entire case. The accuracy and reliability of the earliest and most vital testimony on which the entire case hinged were notably absent. Yet the T9 received the benefit of doubt to a more than generous extent, due in no small part to the campaign in evidence from the earliest moments, that any difficulty comprehending the actions of the group were due to alleged cultural differences. There is no question the tale as told would NOT have been swallowed quite as whole had the investigation been on home turf.

Despite evidence such as the scene itself proving the lie regarding wholly unjustifiable feelings of safety arising from the accommodation and resort, the group's resolute, unanimous insistence that their behaviour was both safe and normal was not subject to sufficient challenge, for understandable reasons. This should have been picked up on by Leicestershire Constabulary but it seems that it was not. Despite all the evidence pointing to faked abduction and no evidence in 7 years of actual abduction, in summing up the AG had to concede the following insurmountable difficulties:

1) the group's behaviour on the evening of 3 May appeared normal (presumably this is up to 10.00pm, as some very odd behaviour was notable thereafter)
2) they were all (apparently) new to the area and had no local knowledge or vehicle, therefore concealment of a body without discovery would have been problematic
3) the forensic evidence thus far was of insufficient weight to allow charges of simulated abduction and cadaver concealment to be brought
According to this article from 30/09/2007 - allegedly there was a child safety gate at the top of the stairs - I think these are the same steps as referred to above.

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There are also some interesting comments in this article re alleged cadaver odour found on the steps and the PJ allegedly being certain that MBM died in the apartment.

I don't think this is what happened but it is certainly a possibility.

Thanks BCB, interesting article with some interesting comment. Dated 30/9/2007 so early arguido days before the press was fettered:

"But yesterday, a source close to the couple hit back at the allegations. Kate carrying Cuddle-Cat. The toy with cadaver scent detected by the dog Eddie. (description of photo of KMcC)

“Where is the proof that this happened? Madeleine was put to bed at 7pm and there was a witness. When is Madeleine supposed to have fallen?“If the police are 100 per cent certain that Madeleine fell down some steps, that means they must be able to prove she died in that way. It’s just not possible without a body.”The couple’s spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, added: “It is just ludicrous. All of these reports are unsourced and unsubstantiated.”

Interesting CM claiming M was put to bed at 7pm and there was a witness to that, which I don't recollect ever reading in the case files but perhaps I have that wrong? If this isn't in the files and consequently investigated previously, Mr Mitchell should be invited to SY to provide details of this witness who he has publicly claimed can substantiate that MMcC was seen alive at 7pm as the PJ have recorded the last sighting of her outwith the family as being 5.30pm. Interesting that the source close to the couple cannot credit that a child put to bed at 7 could have fallen down the steps - perhaps he/she should be asked to elaborate as to why the child could not have got out of bed and attempted to climb over the gate as there must be something behind such an assertion.

by jeanmonroe 31.03.14 12:59

C Mitchell:
“Where is the proof that this happened? Madeleine was put to bed at 7pm and there was a witness.
------------------------------------------------------------

From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.
-------------------------------------------------

19H00 (7pm) on the 3rd May 2007.

SO it seems Pinkie KNEW of this 'visit' by FP at 7pm.

But a lot of people have DP as the last 'non' McCann to see Madeleine.

DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry

First he was there at 17H00 for the LAST time on 3rd May 2007 (but he was actually at the beach then)

THEN, hastily added, imo, it was his 'visit', (at 18H30?) after GM 'asked' him, after he had left the beach cafe.

But, it IS, the 'unhelpful and hurtful' UK Police that SAY it was FP who was the last 'non' McCann to be in 5A at 7pm (19H00)

NOT DP!

Hmmmm.

If anyone here can give me 'an innocent explanation' for this 'time travel', i'm all ears!

by Monty Heck 31.03.14 18:39

jeanmonroe wrote:C Mitchell:
“Where is the proof that this happened? Madeleine was put to bed at 7pm and there was a witness.
------------------------------------------------------------

From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.
-------------------------------------------------

19H00 (7pm) on the 3rd May 2007.

SO it seems Pinkie KNEW of this 'visit' by FP at 7pm.

But a lot of people have DP as the last 'non' McCann to see Madeleine.

DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry

First he was there at 17H00 for the LAST time on 3rd May 2007 (but he was actually at the beach then)

THEN, hastily added, imo, it was his 'visit', (at 18H30?) after GM 'asked' him, after he had left the beach cafe.

But, it IS, the 'unhelpful and hurtful' UK Police that SAY it was FP who was the last 'non' McCann to be in 5A at 7pm (19H00)

NOT DP!

Hmmmm.

If anyone here can give me 'an innocent explanation' for this 'time travel', i'm all ears!

Thank you JM. So we have a PC who states FP declared within her depositions that she was in 5A around 19.00. If she is who Mitchell was referring to, he seems to have gone somewhat further than saying she was there at that time which is all this statement above is claiming. Mitchell stated that M was seen (being put to bed) at 7pm on 3 May by a witness, one and a half hours later than the last accepted (by the PJ) sighting. There is an urgent need for SY to revisit these statements and finally unravel the pertinent facts from the heap of obfuscation with which the initial investigation was littered. This is no longer a review and it's high time this investigative stage finally focussed on the key players that week, to elicit a coherent and credible timeline of events. Or not, if that is the case.

by kimHager 31.03.14 22:31

I'm sorry but I have 3 children under 5 and there is NO Way I can get them to bed all at the same time much less before 8 pm. There is always another drink of water, an I'm scared tell me another story, at least one who is sneaking around the bedroom door and always that extra cuddle that one needs. How on earth did Kate manage this incredible feat? Maybe JT couldn't believe it either and just had to see it for herself...for all three kids to be so soundly sleeping is unusual to say the least I know my kids wake up several times and of they don't see me they don't lay down and go quietly back to dreamland.. No they go looking for me or daddy. Did the crying that abruptly stopped that night Ms. Fenn heard it possibly be because she heard someone on the patio or the patio door... Perhaps Madeleine went out that door and fell down the steps ?

by ProfessorPPlum 31.03.14 22:52

So not only doesn't David Payne remember what Kate wasn't wearing when she came to the door at 5.30 when he popped in alone for his 30 minute (or 30 second) visit but now he doesn't remember that it was really 7pm and his own wife was already there when he knocked?

I can't accept that these rather glaringly contradictory statements have not - at some point - been placed side-by-side on a table somewhere in SY by one of the decent 37 police officers assigned to this case. Perhaps it has and perhaps that's why Dr. David Payne has been conspicuous by his absence in recent years.

by **Tony Bennett** 31.03.14 23:13

ProfessorPPlum wrote:I can't accept that these rather glaringly contradictory statements have not - at some point - been placed side-by-side on a table somewhere in SY by one of the decent 37 police officers assigned to this case. Perhaps it has and perhaps that's why Dr. David Payne has been conspicuous by his absence in recent years.

Surely not 'side by side'?

More likely, in a shredding bin labelled:

'HURTFUL AND UNHELPFUL THEORIES BY NUTCASES AND HOUNDERS'

by TheTruthWillOut 31.03.14 23:16

Tony Bennett wrote:
ProfessorPPlum wrote:I can't accept that these rather glaringly contradictory statements have not - at some point - been placed side-by-side on a table somewhere in SY by one of the decent 37 police officers assigned to this case. Perhaps it has and perhaps that's why Dr. David Payne has been conspicuous by his absence in recent years.
Surely not 'side by side'?

More likely, in a shredding bin labelled:

'HURTFUL AND UNHELPFUL THEORIES BY NUTCASES AND HOUNDERS'

Aye! The Met have banned shredding! titter

by ultimaThule 31.03.14 23:28

Tony Bennett wrote:
ProfessorPPlum wrote:I can't accept that these rather glaringly contradictory statements have not - at some point - been placed side-by-side on a table somewhere in SY by one of the decent 37 police officers assigned to this case. Perhaps it has and perhaps that's why Dr. David Payne has been conspicuous by his absence in recent years.
Surely not 'side by side'?

More likely, in a shredding bin labelled:

'HURTFUL AND UNHELPFUL THEORIES BY NUTCASES AND HOUNDERS'

You have every right to be embittered by your experience of the McCanns and despairing that justice will ever be done in this case, Tony, but if you're unable to believe that any of the 37 UK police officers assigned to Operation Grange have placed contradictory statements side by side, may I urge you to have faith that at least one of the 37 Portuguese officers assigned to the PJ's re-opened investigation has not consigned them to the shredding bin?

by kimHager 31.03.14 23:55

From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL Ref: David Payne Date: October 24, 2007

I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.

So FP went there together with Kate? Then the husband arrives 10min later.... So where was FP and KM before this... Wasn't this asked by the PJ? The children were where? Alone again? There is a big time gap between DP's visit and his wife's. The only logical thing is if Gerry was there. So Gerry was there (assumption ) and... Kate and Fiona P. Show up either by call or Kate went to get her. Then David Payne arrives? To me this must have been clean up time. Assuming Madeleine was alive on May 3rd, but I don't believe it. Otherwise it was time to go over what they would say, do, etc. As they put operation raise the alarm into motion later that evening. Perhaps they shared that NZ wine high5

by **Tony Bennett** 01.04.14 0:13

ultimaThule wrote:
You have every right to be embittered by your experience of the McCanns and despairing that justice will ever be done in this case, Tony, but if you're unable to believe that any of the 37 UK police officers assigned to Operation Grange have placed contradictory statements side by side, may I urge you to have faith that at least one of the 37 Portuguese officers assigned to the PJ's re-opened investigation has not consigned them to the shredding bin?

I recommend that you obtain and read Graeme McLagan's book: 'BENT COPPERS':

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ETA: You emphasised the number 37.

Both it and its reverse, 73, are associated with the six-ponted Star of David, smaller and larger versions. A fascinating prime number, in fact:

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by ultimaThule 01.04.14 4:56

Tony Bennett wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:
You have every right to be embittered by your experience of the McCanns and despairing that justice will ever be done in this case, Tony, but if you're unable to believe that any of the 37 UK police officers assigned to Operation Grange have placed contradictory statements side by side, may I urge you to have faith that at least one of the 37 Portuguese officers assigned to the PJ's re-opened investigation has not consigned them to the shredding bin?
I recommend that you obtain and read Graeme McLagan's book: 'BENT COPPERS':

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ETA: You emphasised the number 37.

Both it and its reverse, 73, are associated with the six-ponted Star of David, smaller and larger versions. A fascinating prime number, in fact:

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I'm under no illusion about the extent of corruption in the police and other institutions in the UK, Tony. Neverthless, imo even the most nine bob note of coppers will draw the line at covering up for parent(s) who are complicit in the needless death of their child and, ime, few will leave colleagues who are wrongly accused to their fate.

In numerology 37 is indeed a fascinating number; for the Chaldeans it symbolised the Force, the Capacity, and the Power. In the Greek gematria it's the symbol of the Christ and the alive word of God

Its reverse, 73, is the value of Hebrew noun for Wisdom and if we add together the number of UK and Portuguese police working on investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann we have 78, the number which in the Book of Thoth Hermes is said to represent the Incorruptible Spirit which I trust will prevail and deliver justice for this little girl.

by ultimaThule 01.04.14 5:40

candyfloss wrote:
Doug D wrote:And then thoughtful parent KM says in KH1 (p.45):

'Though I envied David & Fiona their sea view, being on the ground floor meant we didn't have to worry about the childrens safety on a balcony'

so a fall from their balcony/patio of maybe 10/12 feet wouldn't matter then.

The balcony is right over the sharp stone steps as can be seen here.......

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Very dangerous to a child imo.

Stone steps and marble floors can be be unforgiving surfaces for children and adults alike. However, as access to the apartment via its front door is child friendly, there was no need for the McCanns to use the rear entrance and no reason why all, or any, of their children should have been on the balcony/patio unsupervised at any time.

Others may have commented on this previously, but I can't resist calling attention to the fact that the diagram of Apartment 5A on page 46 of Exhibit KH1 has it that the 'patio doors' lead on to a 'veranda' (sic) which has gated top and bottom steps leading to Rua Dr Francisco Gentil Martins, the road on which the entrance to the swimming pool complex and Tapas Bar is situated, and all of the apartment's windows appear to protrude from the premises in a manner which suggests that any shutters could easily be opened from outside.

In this diagram 5A's walled garden area has been whooshed and replaced by a row of ~~blobs~~ bushes bordering an 'access path' beyond which is the 'Tapas and Pool Area'. Similarly, what purports to be a map of The Ocean Club on page 50 gives no indication of the high walls which enclose the swimming pool/bar complex and the blob which denotes 5a has joined the row of bushes (above) giving every impression that eating at the Tapas Bar is just like dining al fresco in one's own back garden, albeit on the other side of one's own swimming pool don'cha know, dahlings smilie

.

Bearing in mind tigger's earlier observation that "Accurate measurements happen to other people, McCann measurements are variable" it seems that, much like their cartographers, Mcdiagrams and Mcmaps are not to be relied on for accuracy.

by russiandoll 01.04.14 9:34

quote UT : Stone steps and marble floors can be be unforgiving surfaces for children and adults alike. However, as access to the apartment via its front door is child friendly, there was no need for the McCanns to use the rear entrance and no reason why all, or any, of their children should have been on the balcony/patio unsupervised at any time.

Agreed, but we have to go by the statements which speak repeatedly of a sound asleep [ but not sedated] Maddie, who was sleeping with the patio door closed but unlocked, therefore she did have access to this very dangerous area, while drowsy and uncoordinated if she were to wake up...so increasing the danger.

by ultimaThule 01.04.14 9:40

Absolutely, rd. I'm merely making a case for child neglect and endangerment should other charges fail... winkwink

by **Tony Bennett** 01.04.14 10:15

ultimaThule wrote:
I'm under no illusion about the extent of corruption in the police and other institutions in the UK, Tony. Neverthless, imo even the most nine bob note of coppers will draw the line at covering up for parent(s) who are complicit in the needless death of their child...

I could counter this by producing evidence to you that it is not 'nine bob note' coppers who are behind the widespread extent of serious police corruption in this country, but police officers at the most senior levels.

If we look for example at the work done by Operation Tiberius (highlighted recently on this forum) - an investigation into corrupt relationships between very senior Met Polcie officers and some of the nation's most powerful drug barons and career criminals - I could tell you from personal knowledge of many murders that have been covered up.

If I were to name names, I would be at personal risk, but please don't proceed with your life today without recognising that senior police officers in the UK are quite capable of smothering the truth about murders, if it is in the interests of 'The-Powers-That-Be'.

Two words.

Daniel Morgan (also discussed on this forum).

But there are many other murders being covered up.

Corrupt senior police officers frighten police whistleblowers into silence by two tried-and-trusted techniques:

1. Threaten them with prosecution under the Officfial Secrets Act and

2. Threaten them with being dismissed for gross misconduct - thus losing their pension entitlement.

Even retired police officers can have their pensions withdrawn on the recommendation of their former Chief Constable.

by ultimaThule 01.04.14 10:56

You have no need to convince me, Tony. I'm well aware of the extent of the corruption which is inherent in the UK's police forces and I know that, together with their political masters, those in the very highest eschelons of power consider no dirty trick beneath them if it serves as a means to their ends.

Nevertheless, I maintain that, regardless of rank, the needless death of a child at the hands of its parent(s) is a matter which even the most hardened nine bob copper will balk at covering up, and more particularly when that child has not been properly laid to rest in a decent and fitting manner.

For the time being, I will continue to put my faith in the numbers which, as I see it, are stacking up against those who've committed heinous crimes against a defenceless little girl.

by **Tony Bennett** 01.04.14 14:35

ultimaThule wrote:You have no need to convince me, Tony. I'm well aware of the extent of the corruption which is inherent in the UK's police forces and I know that, together with their political masters, those in the very highest echelons of power consider no dirty trick beneath them if it serves as a means to their ends.

Thank you for your reply.

In view of your reply above, I hereby rest my case

by ultimaThule 02.04.14 10:36

In which case, as counsel for the defence of omens, portents, and numerology, I ask for an adjournment until 12 May in order that my clients may produce further evidence of their intent in this matter. smilie

The signs are apparent, Tony, but it's a question of how they're interpreted and, while some may see cause for pessimism, I remain optimistic that the desired outcome will be forthcoming in the near future. It may seem to be taking an inordinate amount of time but the mills have always operated on a slow but exceedingly fine setting.

by **Tony Bennett** 02.04.14 11:17

ultimaThule wrote:In which case, as counsel for the defence of omens, portents, and numerology, I ask for an adjournment until 12 May in order that my clients may produce further evidence of their intent in this matter....It may seem to be taking an inordinate amount of time but the mills have always operated on a slow but exceedingly fine setting.

I require strict proof of the mills grinding slowly, but on an allegdely 'exceedingly fine setting'.

Quite frankly, it sounds about as credible as the claim by Mr Kipling that he manufactures 'exceedingly fine cakes'.

In any event, can you demonstrate that the mills are grinding forwards? - as the mill-owner has stated on the record that he has 'drawn everything back to zero'. Maybe he is 'grinding up' the evidence? After all, the Met has 'form' for shredding...

Your request for an adjournment until 12 May 2014 is granted, albeit with great reluctance - but just in case the European Court of Human Rights might think I am being unfair.

Three years and £8 million is long enough for Operation Grange to prove where it is going.

No adjournments beyond 12 May 2014 will be granted.

by Liz Eagles 02.04.14 11:29

ultimaThule wrote:In which case, as counsel for the defence of omens, portents, and numerology, I ask for an adjournment until 12 May in order that my clients may produce further evidence of their intent in this matter.

The signs are apparent, Tony, but it's a question of how they're interpreted and, while some may see cause for pessimism, I remain optimistic that the desired outcome will be forthcoming in the near future. It may seem to be taking an inordinate amount of time but the mills have always operated on a slow but exceedingly fine setting.

I have noticed ultimaThule that you seem to like speaking of GM as the 'wee one' and denegrating him at every point possible, 'his ginger hair', his 'glaswegian accent' his 'being a short person' blah blah.

Tell me how this helps and please tell me how this gives any dignity to this forum which is full of research. I only subscribe to this forum. I read the others from time to time.

Please also tell me and this forum (I beg you) how you can state so many things about law without actually saying you know things for a fact.

Now if anyone on the forum thinks I'm being arsy I couldn't care less. I don't like the tone set at the moment whereby things have turned into what Gerry and Kate look like, whether what has been said puts you off a choccie hobnob etc.

There is so much research on here and it's being turned into gossip imo.

by HelenMeg 02.04.14 11:37

aquila wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:In which case, as counsel for the defence of omens, portents, and numerology, I ask for an adjournment until 12 May in order that my clients may produce further evidence of their intent in this matter.

The signs are apparent, Tony, but it's a question of how they're interpreted and, while some may see cause for pessimism, I remain optimistic that the desired outcome will be forthcoming in the near future. It may seem to be taking an inordinate amount of time but the mills have always operated on a slow but exceedingly fine setting.
I have noticed ultimaThule that you seem to like speaking of GM as the 'wee one' and denegrating him at every point possible, 'his ginger hair', his 'glaswegian accent' his 'being a short person' blah blah.

Tell me how this helps and please tell me how this gives any dignity to this forum which is full of research. I only subscribe to this forum. I read the others from time to time.

Please also tell me and this forum (I beg you) how you can state so many things about law without actually saying you know things for a fact.

Now if anyone on the forum thinks I'm being arsy I couldn't care less. I don't like the tone set at the moment whereby things have turned into what Gerry and Kate look like, whether what has been said puts you off a choccie hobnob etc.

There is so much research on here and it's being turned into gossip imo.

I think most of us are a little bit guilty of this type of thing... but I understand where you're coming from. I guess a little humour just sometimes helps ease the intense frustration. However, it can distract from the great research and ideas..

by Garrincha 02.04.14 11:55

Aquila said: I don't like the tone set at the moment whereby things have turned into what Gerry and Kate look like, whether what has been said puts you off a choccie hobnob etc. There is so much research on here and it's being turned into gossip imo.

I second the above

by Liz Eagles 02.04.14 12:51

Garrincha wrote:Aquila said: I don't like the tone set at the moment whereby things have turned into what Gerry and Kate look like, whether what has been said puts you off a choccie hobnob etc. There is so much research on here and it's being turned into gossip imo.

I second the above

UltimaThule has given an opinion on the IQ of Gerry McCann.

Can someone tell me what that has to do with the facts (the presented/disclosed facts to date) regarding the disappearance of Madeleine?

by Guest 02.04.14 13:00

HelenMeg wrote:
I think most of us are a little bit guilty of this type of thing... but I understand where you're coming from. I guess a little humour just sometimes helps ease the intense frustration. However, it can distract from the great research and ideas..

That sums it up for me too.

I probably have been guilty of making personal remarks in the past but, unless they are really relevant, I won't do so again.

by **tigger** 02.04.14 13:01

aquila wrote:
Garrincha wrote:Aquila said: I don't like the tone set at the moment whereby things have turned into what Gerry and Kate look like, whether what has been said puts you off a choccie hobnob etc. There is so much research on here and it's being turned into gossip imo.

I second the above
UltimaThule has given an opinion on the IQ of Gerry McCann.

Can someone tell me what that has to do with the facts (the presented/disclosed facts to date) regarding the disappearance of Madeleine?

Yes, if he'd been a more intelligent person, he would not have set the idiotic script for the evening of the 3rd in motion. He'd have done something sensible. In the case of an accident, he'd have contacted his obviously powerful allies to help him cover it up and save his career. Without any publicity and no money from the public of course.

He was outstandingly stupid to think the PJ would swallow his story. He was outstandingly stupid to keep changing his statements.

In short if he'd been an intelligent person wishing to save his career, we would never have heard a thing about Maddie having an accident. It would have been neatly arranged, she'd be buried in the UK with due ceremony and he would have continued his career in medicine.

by Guest 02.04.14 13:23

ultimaThule wrote:In which case, as counsel for the defence of omens, portents, and numerology, I ask for an adjournment until 12 May in order that my clients may produce further evidence of their intent in this matter.

The signs are apparent, Tony, but it's a question of how they're interpreted and, while some may see cause for pessimism, I remain optimistic that the desired outcome will be forthcoming in the near future. It may seem to be taking an inordinate amount of time but the mills have always operated on a slow but exceedingly fine setting.

I'm intrigued, ulti. Can you expand on what might happen on 12th May? It's MBM's birthday and seven years since she disappeared - perhaps a connection.

by j.rob 02.04.14 15:26

Personally, I think Kate and Gerry are open season. You reap what you sow. Gerry's IQ is a perfectly reasonable topic of debate. Of considerably more relevance to the disappearance of Madeleine than Romany gypsies, pimple men, Tanner men and so so.

I would actually suggest that an intense scrutiny of the McCann's characters, personalities, backgrounds and much else besides would probably throw considerable light on this case. The type of scrutiny they would be subjected to in a court of law where some Rottweiler of a prosecution lawyer is digging up the dirt from their pasts.

by kimHager 02.04.14 15:57

I really try not to attack the mccanns except to ask the obvious questions.. If they are evading answering questions and continually lie.. One might say they are shady, lying people but thAt is an opinion of their character and has not to do with looks or anything. I think it's important to scrutinize their facial expression and actions by which countless guilty people have been picked out from society and brought to justice. I guess im saying its important to watch the important things in the McCanns because we honestly have so many more questions than facts about Maddy and finding out what happened abseil did it is what we are or should be concerned with. I don't care if Gerry wears a clown wig and fuzzy slippers then he just makes a spectical of himself.... But that shouldn't matter unless it pertains to what happened to maddy

by ultimaThule 02.04.14 19:08

aquila wrote:
Garrincha wrote:Aquila said: I don't like the tone set at the moment whereby things have turned into what Gerry and Kate look like, whether what has been said puts you off a choccie hobnob etc. There is so much research on here and it's being turned into gossip imo.

I second the above
UltimaThule has given an opinion on the IQ of Gerry McCann.

Can someone tell me what that has to do with the facts (the presented/disclosed facts to date) regarding the disappearance of Madeleine?

Is there any particular reason why you have chosen to quote another member's response to your opinion instead of quoting my opinion of Gerry McCann's IQ, aquila?

I could choose to enlighten you as to what this has to do with the comparatively few indisputable facts regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann which are in the public domain but, given the time I have already expended in endeavouring to further your education on this thread [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] which fact you have failed to acknowledge, I see little point in doing so,

by Guest 03.04.14 8:48

Garrincha wrote:Aquila said: I don't like the tone set at the moment whereby things have turned into what Gerry and Kate look like, whether what has been said puts you off a choccie hobnob etc. There is so much research on here and it's being turned into gossip imo.

I second the above

Just to set the record straight, I made the hobnob comment.

At that point the thread was discussing Kate's claim that Gerry is a "ladies man" and several forum ladies were giving their valid, albeit humorous and childish, reactions to that claim.

As has already been said, a lot of us use humour as a defence mechanism - just look at the Please help Luz thread and I would have thought that there is enough room on the forum for both serious research and more lighthearted gossipy threads.

If you found my hobnob comment offensive, I apologise and if you ever think that something I've posted is detrimental to the forum please ask a mod to delete it.