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Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

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Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Guest on 14.01.12 15:48

Found an article by a holidaymaker who was at Ocean Club the week before the McCanns and he describes quite well the childcare facilities and the Tapas bookings. Couldn't see where else to put this so Admin feel free to move it if it fits better somewhere else.

Thought it might be useful to have somewhere to record any statements from other holidaymakers who experienced the Ocean Club, particularly around the time of the McCann's holiday, as they provide possibly useful info against which to check statements by the Tapas lot...

Most interesting point he makes is the popularity of the tapas bar with guests queueing daily from 9am to book a space...even more puzzling why or how the tapasniks got their block booking....

http://anmblog.typepad.com/this_is_money_blog/2007/05/my_experience_o.html

09 May 2007 1:32 PM

My experience of Maddie's resort in Praia de Luz, the Algarve
I need to break from the usual financial slant of posts on this blog. I'm sure you'll understand as I thing's it's important to give my views on this...

My family and I returned last week relaxed from a holiday at the sleepy end of Portugal’s Algarve. We were, however, stunned to wake on Friday morning, days after we returned, to hear news that a girl, three-year-old Madeleine McCann, had gone missing from the same complex, yards from where we stayed.

We picked the Ocean Club resort in Praia de Luz, a quiet village, because of its connections with Mark Warner Holidays. The company has a growing reputation among families for offering comprehensive childcare wrapped in packages with free sports activities, such as tennis and water sports. The balance of a family holiday with time to relax away from the kids is attractive to millions of Britons.

We had a great time, able to spend time together as a family while also having some time out. Sam, our two-year-old son, was well looked after while we lounged by the pool, or why I played tennis or sailed. My wife Andrea and I even made nightly jaunts to local restaurants, a rare treat for new parents.

Luz, as the locals call it, is a laid back resort with a mix of Portugese holidaymakers and locals and, in off-peak May, a smaller number of foreign tourists. A handful of restaurants and bars in the town have a balance of mainly British families and friendly locals. This is an area you would not associate with crime, let alone the abduction of a child.

The Ocean Club has several hubs. One is a 24-hour reception, the other two have swimming pools, restaurants and tennis courts. At their furthest point, these centres are 10 minutes walk apart. In between are Ocean Club apartments mixed with local homes.

The options for childcare were numerous, well organised and of a very high standard. A well-staffed nursery with a child-to-carer ratio that was often just two-to-one, took youngsters from 9.30 to 12.30 every day and from 2.30 to 5.30 in the afternoon.

These creche facilities were next to the poolside Tapas restaurant where Madeleine’s parents were eating when she disappeared.

Madeleine and the younger twins Amelie and Sean were sleeping at the McCanns’ apartment overlooking the swimming pool at the main hub of the resort. Around that pool was the Tapas bar which was in high demand every night. Most guests went to the buffet at the Ocean Club’s Millennium restaurant, a 10-minute walk away from the McCanns’ apartment. But eager guests would queue from 9am to book one of the limited number of tables at the Tapas bar, which served barbecued fish and meat dishes to order. Both restaurants were included in the price of the holiday.

The McCanns’ choice to leave their children at the flat and make regular checks is surprising given the alternatives. In their defence, they may have been expecting, as advertised in Mark Warner brochures, a ‘listening service’. Staff told us that the service had been discontinued because the apartments were too spread out. The resort, however, offered a baby-sitting service for 15 euros (£10) an hour, which was staffed by a member of the daytime nursery teams, or a ‘dining out club’. This involved parents dropping off children at the crèche where they would be supervised watching videos until they went to sleep. Parents would then return before 11.30 to scoop up their sleepy offspring.

I can imagine the McCanns’ dilemma. The ‘dining out club’ was more than a five-minute walk from where the McCanns stayed along cobbled streets or a winding pedestrian path through the apartments. It’s not far - it worked brilliantly for us on most nights - but it would have felt much further if you had to ferry thee children there and back (and hope they were still asleep after doing so). Plus parents were required to wait until children under two, which includes the McCanns’ twins, were asleep. We talked to parents who said this was enough to put them off the option.

The McCanns opted instead to eat 40-50m from their apartment, not much more than a pool’s width away. They hoped it would be just close enough to hear a crying baby but with bar music playing and restaurant hubbub, it wasn’t close enough to hear what happened to Madeleine that night.

I can't imagine what they're going through now. I, along with millions others, only hope they can find her soon and safe.

- Andrew Oxlade, Editor, This is Money
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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Guest on 14.01.12 15:55

Yes, I posted this a while back Stewie. Interesting how he says about the queues to get into the tapas restaurant. It makes you wonder how the tapas 9 managed to swing a block booking!!
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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Advocatus on 14.01.12 18:08

candyfloss wrote:Yes, I posted this a while back Stewie. Interesting how he says about the queues to get into the tapas restaurant. It makes you wonder how the tapas 9 managed to swing a block booking!!

More later from the Wallace book, he explains how they always got a table. I've read txtusa and there is a bit of a mystery about this alleged huge round table, as the normal tables were rather small I believe.

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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Guest on 15.01.12 9:36

What would be good, is to find someone who has used the free evening creche.

I would be interested to know if children between the ages of 3 and 4 would arrived there in their jim-jams? Baby's yes, but young children who could walk nah If it was the case that this age group were usually fully dressed, where does this leave Tanner's sighting?

To be honest, I thought the evening creche was just to allow parents to go out to dinner on their own. A quick break, if you like.
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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Guest on 15.01.12 10:48

Stella wrote:What would be good, is to find someone who has used the free evening creche.

I would be interested to know if children between the ages of 3 and 4 would arrived there in their jim-jams? Baby's yes, but young children who could walk nah If it was the case that this age group were usually fully dressed, where does this leave Tanner's sighting?

To be honest, I thought the evening creche was just to allow parents to go out to dinner on their own. A quick break, if you like.

Sort of found one... This is a statement from the couple who were in apartment 5A the week before the Mccanns.

They took their children to the evening creche in their pyjamas.. but decided it wasn't for them when they got there.. (Then they did what any normal parent would do and NOT leave them alone in an open apartment whilst they dined out anyway..)

Also interesting is they are also surprised that the group managed to get into the Tapas every night - as they thought it was restricted to once during a stay (though she says they dined there twice.). Must recheck those tapas booking sheets to see if it is only the tapas 9 that repeatedly ate there that week or if anyone else managed to get in more than once..

we have two children, our son xxxx who is three years old and our who is two.

We would have breakfast in the Millenium restaurant, lunch in the apartment so that the children could have a siesta. We also dined in the Millenium except for two occasions when we dined at the Tapas Bar. I had the impression that dining at the Tapas was restricted to once during ones stay, and because of this it surprised me to hear that the McCann group used to dine there every day.

The children would use the club facilities, I think they were called 'Ama 1 and 2'.
They would spend the morning or afternoon, I dont remember them having spent a whole day there. We were always with them when they were not in the childrens club. It was usual to go to the Tapas bar at lunchtime and I know that of 6 occasions they went five times. On one occasion we thought of using the night club and we took the children there with their pyjamas on. When we got there we saw that the club was not for us and we did not leave the children there. We always took the children with us when we went for dinner. We never left them alone.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SA-L-GO.htm
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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Guest on 15.01.12 11:05

Another former occupant of 5A who were there just after easter 2007.

They have a 3 1/2 year old daughter - so I suppose she would have been 2 1/2 at the time of the holiday.

They describe taking her to the evening creche in her pyjamas..

Date: 22 nd April 2008

Signature _________________________________________

I am the person referred to at the address above where I live with my husband S**** and daughter R*** aged 3½.


During the second week we would sometimes dine at the Tapas. My husband and I would have dinner out each night. While we were out we would hand R*** over to the care of MW babysitters. The normal procedure was to dress her in pyjamas at about 19.00 and at 19.30 take her to the place near to the reception. R*** would stay in the care of MW staff until they (children) were ready to sleep. If they were tired, there were beds available for the children to sleep in. We would collect R*** on out return to the apartment at about 21.30 - 22.00. This service was included in the holiday package and was available until 23.00.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLAIRE_FAWKES.htm
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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Guest on 15.01.12 11:17

Just checked the tapas booking sheets. Outside of the tapas 9 who we know managed to eat there every night for some reason.... There are 16 different names of those who booked 1-3 May. Of those 16 only 3 (Mann, Bullen and Weinberger) who managed to eat there twice (Mann and Bullen on 1st and 3rd, Weinberger on 1st and 2nd). Everyone else only ate there once.

Given that others have described how there would be queues from 9am to book the tapas, I suspect there was a policy to try and be fair and allow groups to only book once or twice during their stay to allow others to be able to eat there. Given this, it's the more surprising that the tapas 9 were allowed to eat there every night .
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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Pershing36 on 15.01.12 11:27

Is it possible that they were given the group booking because a MW staff knew they were intending to leave the kids alone?

That could have been powerful leverage. Especially if they thought a listening service was still active. May have been like compensation when they found out it wasn't still ongoing.
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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Guest on 15.01.12 12:03

They knew well before they arrived there, that the listening service was not available.
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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Genbug on 15.01.12 16:23

"I can imagine the McCanns’ dilemma. The ‘dining out club’ was more than a five-minute walk from where the McCanns stayed along cobbled streets or a winding pedestrian path through the apartments. It’s not far - it worked brilliantly for us on most nights - but it would have felt much further if you had to ferry thee children there and back (and hope they were still asleep after doing so). Plus parents were required to wait until children under two, which includes the McCanns’ twins, were asleep. We talked to parents who said this was enough to put them off the option."

- Andrew Oxlade, Editor, This is Money


I know it's just being picky but the twins weren't under two, they were two and three months. Just irritates me when bloggers get their facts wrong!

I've often wondered about the group being able to eat at the tapas every night. It is obviously a superior a la carte restaurant as opposed to the Millenium buffet, and it doesn't seem at all fair that the group should be allowed to eat there each night just because they chose to leave their children alone. I can imagine there were quite a few complaints about that, from others that couldn't book a table. I know I would!

I've stayed at various all inclusive resorts which offer similar eating arrangements ~ a large buffet style restaurant where you eat most nights, and a small a la carte restaurant which you have to book ~ but in all cases you were only permitted to book a table there once a week and were given a voucher to do so, or your name was ticked off of a list.

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p.js?

Post by russiandoll on 15.01.12 16:58

My thoughts on this : for practical reasons and to have a peaceful transfer from evening creche to bed, so long as the child was not too heavy to carry, a child who could walk but who had been asleep for a few hours would be carried back in pjs....jacket put on, or blanket wrapped around, even if heavy and had to walk.......jacket on over pjs, no messing with a fractious child who wanted sleep, by removing daywear to put on nightwear.

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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Gillyspot on 15.01.12 19:45

Stella wrote:They knew well before they arrived there, that the listening service was not available.

Too true Stella. This is a screengrab of the Mark Warner website (from May 2007) showing the childcare arrangements at the time

ocean club childcare copy

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so no babysitting option then?

Post by russiandoll on 15.01.12 20:09

Gillyspot wrote:
Stella wrote:They knew well before they arrived there, that the listening service was not available.

Too true Stella. This is a screengrab of the Mark Warner website (from May 2007) showing the childcare arrangements at the time



If I have understood the above correctly, parents eating at the tapas had no choice, it was the creche. Babysitting offered to those going a greater distance to dine out. Wonder why Kate said she decided against babysitting by strangers, as it did not appear to be available.

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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Gillyspot on 15.01.12 21:04

I can't see the OC not accepting babysitting profits from the McCanns' or T7 but it does show that it was clear on the Mark Warner website before and during the McCanns holiday that there was not a listening service there.

Interestingly customers who eat at half board the two Mark Warner restaurants could have "house wine included with the dinner" So there was FREE wine.


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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Praia on 15.01.12 22:25

Often on half board packages the following are inc.- local beers, local / national wines (Vinho Verde is a port. light green wine, very refreshing and easy to drink, popular with women), non alc. drinks, port, sometimes Monchique fire water a local liquer that lives up to it's name! Some offer pre dinner cocktail's made with cheap foreign spirits.
All packages are different but the Tapas staff confirmed a certain limit of alcohol free and extras on credit card using room no.
Don't forget the Tapas 7 on May 3 gave the children tea at the beach and a few beers were consumed on the tape. Wine at home, an aperitif, more wine....

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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Praia on 15.01.12 22:31

Forgot to add that first week in May was dreary and certainly cold at night. I travelled to UK that Thurs. for wedding and all jokes were it was warmer there than Algarve.
Even if the day is warm it always is cold at night early May , alot of visitors get caught out and borrow fleeces and jackets, just like Healy and Tanner.

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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Pershing36 on 15.01.12 23:12

Praia wrote:Forgot to add that first week in May was dreary and certainly cold at night. I travelled to UK that Thurs. for wedding and all jokes were it was warmer there than Algarve.
Even if the day is warm it always is cold at night early May , alot of visitors get caught out and borrow fleeces and jackets, just like Healy and Tanner.

JT said the following about the abductor.

By the way he was dressed, he gave her the impression that he was not a tourist, because he was very "warmly dressed"

The wine must have had a warming effect as she clearly doesn't remember here it being cold at night. tearhairout
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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Praia on 15.01.12 23:57

Oh she does. Tanner says she borrowed a fleece to go on her check. Webster says she lent Healy a jacket to go to the Tapas. Strange when she is late and does not see Healy til she's at the bar. Have to check but I think she says she gave it to Healy up there.
Tanner will be happy as long as her purple dress is not mentioned. Thank you Mr Wilkins!

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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by jd on 16.01.12 0:43

Gillyspot wrote:I can't see the OC not accepting babysitting profits from the McCanns' or T7 but it does show that it was clear on the Mark Warner website before and during the McCanns holiday that there was not a listening service there.

Interestingly customers who eat at half board the two Mark Warner restaurants could have "house wine included with the dinner" So there was FREE wine.


Yes it appears it was free and part of the package...but 10+ bottles every night for 6 nights...thats 60 bottles of free wine at the very least within a week! Not a business incentive at all! And they also had new zealand white wine before leaving the apartment (note it was new zealand white, one of the few facts they can remember) aperitifs, after dinner drinks, then night caps! No wonder their kids didn't stand a chance of being protected

Its bad enough after consuming all this alcohol but even worse when your backs are to the apartment your kids are on their own in an unlocked apartment in, and also surrounded by a plastic covering that dims your view if you were stone cold sober!

Responsible parenting...yeah right!

They were so distraught when Maddie went missing they carried on playing tennis, running and sitting by the pool!!! then had the audacity of putting down the Portuguese police for not doing enough! Beggars belief

But then they had the directors on their foundation protecting them I guess




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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Advocatus on 16.01.12 4:29

Advocatus wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Yes, I posted this a while back Stewie. Interesting how he says about the queues to get into the tapas restaurant. It makes you wonder how the tapas 9 managed to swing a block booking!!

More later from the Wallace book, he explains how they always got a table. I've read txtusa and there is a bit of a mystery about this alleged huge round table, as the normal tables were rather small I believe.

Update: They apparently always got a booking due to excessive boozing on top of the meal cost, factor in the tips (I won't make the obvious joke here) and you have happy staff!

This is from Spanish sleuth Danny Wallace who actuall said the may 3 drinks were 10-12, now I am hearing 14 bootlegs of wine. Extraordinary.

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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Advocatus on 16.01.12 4:32

Gillyspot wrote:I can't see the OC not accepting babysitting profits from the McCanns' or T7 but it does show that it was clear on the Mark Warner website before and during the McCanns holiday that there was not a listening service there.

Interestingly customers who eat at half board the two Mark Warner restaurants could have "house wine included with the dinner" So there was FREE wine.


Was Gerry aware? lol4

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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Advocatus on 16.01.12 4:54

Praia wrote:Often on half board packages the following are inc.- local beers, local / national wines (Vinho Verde is a port. light green wine, very refreshing and easy to drink, popular with women), non alc. drinks, port, sometimes Monchique fire water a local liquer that lives up to it's name! Some offer pre dinner cocktail's made with cheap foreign spirits.
All packages are different but the Tapas staff confirmed a certain limit of alcohol free and extras on credit card using room no.
Don't forget the Tapas 7 on May 3 gave the children tea at the beach and a few beers were consumed on the tape. Wine at home, an aperitif, more wine....

Thank you Praia. I've been saying this all along, they apparently drank 14 bottles of wine on the 3rd.

Nerves?

They always got a table at the Tapas BAR (!!!) because they got sloshed every night, popular with wait staff, plenty of tips (no, I refuse to make the customary Gerry joke lol4) -

So - this is, after all, a holiday, and clearly the McCanns seemed to behave as star crossed lovers, tennis lessons all day, sailing, running, seemingly ANYTHING to get away from their RESPONSIBILITIES (are you listening Dara???!!!???) - I.e. twins and poor Maddie, the parents never spent any quallity time with them at all.

And I've been on many Portuguese holidays, all day you are having a beer here, a beer there, as Kate says often enough, glass of wine in the room before abandoning the kids. As you do.

Praia mentions aperitifs, I love them. Calvados etc post meal. Lovely. I cannot imagine all these educated folk NOT following the local customs.

So nerves or stupidity, this is what still nags at me.

Someone drank up to 14 bottles of wine, + probably on an alcoholic buzz from earlier in the day, then they make up he most preposterous lies about jemmied shutters and doors off hinges.

It is really

Either

Or

Can't have both.

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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by HiDeHo on 16.01.12 5:01

I don't go along with them being boozy negligent parents.

My opinion is that what they WANT everyone to discuss...

I believe they were normal (to a point) parents that had a child that died and allowed everyone to believe they were negligent because that was the only way she could have been left alone with an abductor able to 'take' her.

Once you think of a boozy negligent parent, you think of a child left alone and when she disappears the instinct is to think she disappeared because of being left alone. Take away the 'negligence' and you take away the opportunity for an abductor

I believe she died at an inopportune moment and they created the checking system so noone would be responsible for the 'moment' that Madeleine died....and they could blame it on an abductor and continue to say they feel guilty for leaving her alone so it could happen...

I prefer to say the were NOT negligent and THEN ask the question...'What happened to Madeleine?'

They have not had the need to be accountable because they hide behind the 'negligence'....

Why should we believe they left the children alone? We only have their word for it!

How would they react if EVERYONE said they believed they were looking after the children responsibly....they would lose their 'get out of jail free card' pretty quickly! Not much chance of an abductor if the children were being watched!

Apologies, went a little of topic there but I feel very passionately about that subject...

Is it on topic to suggest they may have had one person stay behind for a while checking on all the children, who was later replaced by someone else, hence the waiters saying they sometimes had to reheat the food?

That situation would require a restaurant that was nearby so noone missed out on the meal.

ETA...From my understanding the 14 bottles of wine included all of the diners.
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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Gillyspot on 16.01.12 6:46

I would say 14 bottles included in a meal for 9 would be too much to give by a business. I can imagine a bottle per person may be included though particularly if the clients were insistent (it doesn't state a glass of wine simply wine).

Wouldn't it be interesting to see the actual receipts from the Tapas showing how many bottles were actually drunk by T9. I hope the PJ got that information at the time and it is being withheld.

The only reason I shared it was because it was on the same dated website as the childcare arrangements so they would have been aware of this also.


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Re: Statements from other Ocean Club Holidaymakers

Post by Guest on 16.01.12 12:24

Praia wrote:Oh she does. Tanner says she borrowed a fleece to go on her check. Webster says she lent Healy a jacket to go to the Tapas. Strange when she is late and does not see Healy til she's at the bar. Have to check but I think she says she gave it to Healy up there.
Tanner will be happy as long as her purple dress is not mentioned. Thank you Mr Wilkins!
That's right Praia thumbup and VERY relevant when considering the possibility that all of the children were dropped off to the one apartment, to be looked after by one adult. UP, being only one possibility. winkwink
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