Re: Forensic linguistics -

by Bellajoy on 07.06.14 10:28

On the night MM went missing a neighbour upstairs heard a lady (KM) screaming and leant over the balcony to enquire what was the matter.

Gerry McCann answered " A child has been abducted "

Note he didnt say his daughter, would that be distancing?

by worriedmum on 07.06.14 11:15

@Bellajoy wrote:On the night MM went missing a neighbour upstairs heard a lady (KM) screaming and leant over the balcony to enquire what was the matter.

Gerry McCann answered " A child has been abducted "

Note he didnt say his daughter, would that be distancing?

Bellajoy, they talk about 'a child' in the video link I posted just before your post, too!

by fossey on 07.06.14 11:16

@Bellajoy wrote:Gerry McCann answered " A child has been abducted "

Note he didnt say his daughter, would that be distancing?

YES it would. Very much.

by cassius on 07.06.14 12:03

@Bellajoy wrote:On the night MM went missing a neighbour upstairs heard a lady (KM) screaming and leant over the balcony to enquire what was the matter.

Gerry McCann answered " A child has been abducted "

Note he didnt say his daughter, would that be distancing?

Why didn,t he ask the neighbour if she had seen his daughter or seen anything?

by missbeetle on 10.06.14 12:43

" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

by Guest on 10.06.14 14:45

@Cristobell wrote:I have never been convinced by the theory that all the children were in one apartment. Who would volunteer to look after 6 small children, including babies with diarrhea? Even new men would flinch at that task.

As for the bathing? Who knows, it may be that if they were all socialising in one apartment, to save time they may have stuck all the kids in the bath together - which the kids would of course love. If they were crying when they were being bathed they might have wanted mummy or daddy?

It may have been a freudian slip, imo, Kate is not a very hands on mother, and I suspect she and her macho husband were probably happy to hand the bathing over to whoever volunteered.

The most likely explanation however, imo, is that given the half ass parenting skills and sheer ignorance of Kate and Gerry, they may well have left the tots on their own in the bath whilst they shared a glass of New Zealand vino oblivious to the cries of the kids coming from the bathroom. Kate is possibly the only mother in history who is able to take a shower and leave 3 toddlers on their own reading books in an unfamiliar apartment - I couldn't even escape for a 'quick' trip to the bathroom when I only had one toddler to look after!

The apartments had showers, but nowhere it is apparent that they had bathrooms, with baths in them

So when they 'bathed' the children, how did they do that?

by fossey on 10.06.14 15:05

@Portia wrote:
The apartments had showers, but nowhere it is apparent that they had bathrooms, with baths in them

So when they 'bathed' the children, how did they do that?

Bath in Apartment 5a.

by **PeterMac** on 10.06.14 17:37

This from the final prosecution speech in the RH trial, cording to the Mail

During the trial, Harris had claimed he had not been to Cambridge - the city where one of his alleged assaults took place during the filming of a celebrity game show, originally believed to be It's A Celebrity Knock Out - until four years ago.
However, footage later emerged of the star taking part in the similar programme Star Games.
The prosecutor said Harris had tried several different excuses for why he had claimed he had not been there, but told the jury: 'Such detailed excuses are often the stuff of lies and that is what this late, but invaluable emergence of the television recording has cemented into place for us that Mr Harris is a determined, purposeful, liar.

Where else have we come across Detailed excuses, sometimes two or three totally different Detailed excuses.

Entered by the front door - USING HIS KEY - too much information, and had to admit it was a lie later.
Curtains wide open - and then had to admit this was a lie later and change it to an elaborate description of their being tight closed, and whooshing
and so on

we might almost want to add "and that is what this late, but invaluable emergence of the PJ photo of the scene has cemented into place for us that * * * * is a determined, purposeful, liar.

by tigger on 10.06.14 17:40

@missbeetle wrote:" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

I've heard this phrase in TV series such as ER, meaning resuscitation is stopped.
I've been told it's not used in the UK, but still.

ETA: could we keep the bath and so on out of linguistics? This is a much visited topic and handy to find the odd slip.
So please ontopic

by Miraflores on 10.06.14 18:15

'Let her down' by no means refers to stopping resuscitation in the UK e.g. a good number of years ago when a cousin got pregnant out of wedlock, another family member opined that 'she had let her mother down' - that is not behaved in the correct manner.

by canada12 on 10.06.14 18:27

"I've let you down" can also mean, I've disappointed you in some way. Or you expected me to do something, and I didn't do it.

by Justformaddie on 10.06.14 19:12

@worriedmum wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viTGOk8lVrE&feature=youtu.be

I don't remember seeing this interview before.

I find there answer to 'what the twins have been told' very interesting. Gerry says 'the twins believe...' about 2.30 onwards, with lots of suppressed face touching from Gerry.

Hobs, are you out there please?

Ain't seen that one either. IMO at the start, they are speaking as you would do after a sudden or unexpected death yes

by tigger on 11.06.14 6:28

@Miraflores wrote:'Let her down' by no means refers to stopping resuscitation in the UK e.g. a good number of years ago when a cousin got pregnant out of wedlock, another family member opined that 'she had let her mother down' - that is not behaved in the correct manner.

I know, but we were trying to relate it to a child of 4 and the term implies an expectation on her part of certain behaviour and duties of her her parents of which she would not be aware at that age. Imo.

So relating it to an accident or medical situation seems more logical imo. Let them down, let them go are terms I've heard used in several medical series.

Kate's father allegedly saying the same in relation to Kate doesn't make sense either, how could it be her parents' fault?

But Kate usually sees things back to front as is evident from the way she talks about Maddie, as if she was a grown up and had to help and protect Kate.

Kate's parents hadn't let her down, she had let them down.

by Guest on 11.06.14 7:07

I have never heard "let them down" in a medical setting ever. It is not an expression used in English resuss.
On the other hand "let them go" "she's gone" etc does refer to death and dying.

"to put down" is used in veterinary for euthanasia.

Letting someone down usually refers to admitting a failure on your part where you do not fulfill your responsibilities to that person.

In translation to other cultures/languages these phrases often don't work.
I tried explaining about having a dog put down to an Italian the other day who initially thought I had buried it alive.

by tigger on 11.06.14 7:39

dantezebu wrote:I have never heard "let them down" in a medical setting ever. It is not an expression used in English resuss.
On the other hand "let them go" "she's gone" etc does refer to death and dying.

"to put down" is used in veterinary for euthanasia.

Letting someone down usually refers to admitting a failure on your part where you do not fulfill your responsibilities to that person.

In translation to other cultures/languages these phrases often don't work.
I tried explaining about having a dog put down to an Italian the other day who initially thought I had buried it alive.

You will see I referred to US usage as to the possible medical connection.

I still think the term in connection with a toddler, - as I have explained above- makes no sense.
The example given by Miraflores works for me as the expectation of NOT bring let down is between adults, which does not apply with a dependent child.

i am aware of terms such as 'put down' etc. translation in any language would present difficulties but I fail to see how that is relevant here unless you think my nationality and consequent inability to grasp the finer nuances of the English language is a factor here.

by Guest on 11.06.14 8:10

@tigger wrote:
dantezebu wrote:I have never heard "let them down" in a medical setting ever. It is not an expression used in English resuss.
On the other hand "let them go" "she's gone" etc does refer to death and dying.

"to put down" is used in veterinary for euthanasia.

Letting someone down usually refers to admitting a failure on your part where you do not fulfill your responsibilities to that person.

In translation to other cultures/languages these phrases often don't work.
I tried explaining about having a dog put down to an Italian the other day who initially thought I had buried it alive.

You will see I referred to US usage as to the possible medical connection.

I still think the term in connection with a toddler, - as I have explained above- makes no sense.
The example given by Miraflores works for me as the expectation of NOT bring let down is between adults, which does not apply with a dependent child.

i am aware of terms such as 'put down' etc. translation in any language would present difficulties but I fail to see how that is relevant here unless you think my nationality and consequent inability to grasp the finer nuances of the English language is a factor here.

Not at all tigger I am sure your English is as good as mine. But it does happen in some cases. Especially when a phrase can mean something else completely in another language.
As regards Mr Healy using the phrase, I am thinking that Mr Healy as many parents do he feels a life-long responsibility to his children.
Especially if they knew there was a problem and didn't feel as though he acted in a way to prevent a disaster.
If Mr Healy knew KM was having difficulties coping with 3 young babies and didn't step in to help her, or take appropriate action he may well feel he had let her and Madeleine down.

ETA it may well be a common phrase in the Healy household.

by lj on 12.06.14 1:10

@missbeetle wrote:" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

You wonder if the "you" in Kate's father's "I've let you down" is Kate or Madeleine.

by Okeydokey on 13.06.14 1:37

@missbeetle wrote:" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

Regarding the Daily Mail interview...how does Kate McC then explain the evidence of one of the Tapas 9 women (I think it was Rachael Oldfield) who claimed that Kate McCann, on the night of the abduction, explained to her (at the Tapas restaurant) her concern that she might be doing the wrong thing in leaving the children alone after the "crying" episode. Someone might have the link to that Rogatory interview to hand. If so, it shows that this is not a truthful account, since she clearly did have concerns about not being able to ensure the welfare of her children in such circumstances.

by tigger on 13.06.14 5:18

@Okeydokey wrote:
@missbeetle wrote:" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

Regarding the Daily Mail interview...how does Kate McC then explain the evidence of one of the Tapas 9 women (I think it was Rachael Oldfield) who claimed that Kate McCann, on the night of the abduction, explained to her (at the Tapas restaurant) her concern that she might be doing the wrong thing in leaving the children alone after the "crying" episode. Someone might have the link to that Rogatory interview to hand. If so, it shows that this is not a truthful account, since she clearly did have concerns about not being able to ensure the welfare of her children in such circumstances.

I think it was in the rogatory of Fiona Payne.

by Guest on 13.06.14 8:48

@lj wrote:
@missbeetle wrote:" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

You wonder if the "you" in Kate's father's "I've let you down" is Kate or Madeleine.

Good point thumbsup

If Kate's father was the only one who was upset and truly grieving for Madeleine maybe Kate latched onto that phrase to give her story depth and emotion.

I'm not convinced that Kate and Gerry wasted even a nanosecond thinking about Madeleine - they were too busy trying to save their own scrawny necks.

by fossey on 13.06.14 8:59

@tigger wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:
@missbeetle wrote:" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

Regarding the Daily Mail interview...how does Kate McC then explain the evidence of one of the Tapas 9 women (I think it was Rachael Oldfield) who claimed that Kate McCann, on the night of the abduction, explained to her (at the Tapas restaurant) her concern that she might be doing the wrong thing in leaving the children alone after the "crying" episode. Someone might have the link to that Rogatory interview to hand. If so, it shows that this is not a truthful account, since she clearly did have concerns about not being able to ensure the welfare of her children in such circumstances.

I think it was in the rogatory of Fiona Payne.

Can't seem to find the above in either Fiona's or Rachel's rog's. Not in that context anyway. Have read it somewhere though.

by lj on 13.06.14 16:06

@fossey wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:
@missbeetle wrote:" />
(From Daily Mail interview, 30th April 2010)

Witnessing our mums being torn apart was absolutely heartbreaking, as was the sight of my dad, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, sobbing profusely, shaking violently, his condition exacerbated by his state of mind, and virtually collapsing on to the couch beside me. ‘I’m so sorry. I’ve let you down. I’m so sorry, so sorry,’ he kept repeating.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine: Our daughter's disappearance and the continuing search for her (Kindle Locations 1557-1559). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Question 16 of 48 asked of Kate McCann by the Portuguese police - What does 'we let her down' mean?

This phrase has stuck in my head. Odd to read it said by Kate's father.

Regarding the Daily Mail interview...how does Kate McC then explain the evidence of one of the Tapas 9 women (I think it was Rachael Oldfield) who claimed that Kate McCann, on the night of the abduction, explained to her (at the Tapas restaurant) her concern that she might be doing the wrong thing in leaving the children alone after the "crying" episode. Someone might have the link to that Rogatory interview to hand. If so, it shows that this is not a truthful account, since she clearly did have concerns about not being able to ensure the welfare of her children in such circumstances.

I think it was in the rogatory of Fiona Payne.
Can't seem to find the above in either Fiona's or Rachel's rog's. Not in that context anyway. Have read it somewhere though.

I am pretty sure it was Fiona Payne too. I am hopeless in searching here. IIRC in the same conversation Kate wondered if it was better to leave the balcony doors locked, so the kids could not run away, or open, so they could escape in case of a fire.

GMAFB. I have no doubt Fiona brought that up to show they are caring parents, while they exactly missed the point: when you have those concerns you take a babysit!!

Typical narcissistic behavior.

by **PeterMac** on 13.06.14 17:01

It's in the book
'We mentioned to the others what Madeleine had said that morning. Obviously, we didn’t want any of our children waking and wondering where we were even for a few minutes, and if the chances of that happening seemed remote, it was enough of a concern to make us absolutely prompt with our checks on the kids. That is why Gerry and I were subsequently able to be so accurate about timings."

by Guest on 13.06.14 17:32

IIRC it was Fiona, who brought up, that Kate at dinner on May 3, was ventilating her doubts about leaving the doors open. That Gerry'd said, it was O.K., but that she had doubts, which she "shared" with her best friend.
When I have a bit more time, will search for an exact quote.

by ultimaThule on 13.06.14 17:46

@PeterMac wrote:It's in the book
'We mentioned to the others what Madeleine had said that morning. Obviously, we didn’t want any of our children waking and wondering where we were even for a few minutes, and if the chances of that happening seemed remote, it was enough of a concern to make us absolutely prompt with our checks on the kids. That is why Gerry and I were subsequently able to be so accurate about timings."

If Kate genuinely didn't want her children 'waking and wondering where we were even for a few minutes' she or her spouse would have ensured that one or other of them was in the apartment at all times in case the children woke up and it surely must have occurred to her that if they were being checked every 30minutes, there were 29 in which they may have woken and been crying their eyes out until they were checked again.

Yet again an extract from Exhibit KH1 fails to stand up to scrutiny.

Forensic linguistics -