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Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by anil39200 on 03.01.12 20:31

Willo wrote:The reason the restaurant was picked was to give all the T9's an alibi. They were all seen by witnesses outside the group thus all could be counted out of the list of potential 'abductors'. Also giving the T9's a little more breathing space to tidy up after themselves and try to hone their plan as best they could while the authorities chased a fictitious abductor.

I think Madeleine was already dead and whether she died by accident or abuse her body contained evidence enough to possibly uncover something quite horrid that would seem to have far reaching consequences for many of the McCann supporters that have emerged from the woodwork to offer support (financial and otherwise) that at times seems way over the top.

I am with you there.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 03.01.12 20:48

Moa wrote:
Stella wrote:Matt Oldfield: "Well Kate went and did the next check and think because we'd, I didn't, we didn't all go at that point, just Kate went and, erm, and then came running back saying, she's gone, Gerry Madeleine's gone, and she was sort of borderline hysterical, as you'd expect, and then there was just a blur as everybody then just ran off from the table. Erm, then everybody I think left the table, I mean, I just remember being behind Dave as he was, and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think (inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on G***e to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't remember, but I remember seeing them".

I'm thinking it was Rachel's turn to relieve Jane.

This line stood out to me :
we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful

Well if one of my friends children got missing, first thing I would do was look in the appartment. At that time they didnt know anything else (according to them ) but that she was gone..She could just have wondered off alone or something.. What was so awful that they couldnt get them self to go into the apartment?
I would think thats more of a reaction if you KNOW there is a terrible sight in there, like a dead body or something..

So what was so awful 5 minutes after the alarm was raised ? So awful that they at that point didnt want to enter the appartment ? Makes absolutly no sence to me...unless they knew something awful was to be found in there..

Once again, Moa, the same line jumped up at me too... What on earth is awful about an 'empty' apartment? Sad and shocking if she really had been abducted, but too awful too go in?
No, that I would associate with a nasty bloody scene reminiscent of a horror movie, not an empty bed...

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 03.01.12 20:55

rainbow-fairy wrote:
Moa wrote:
Stella wrote:Matt Oldfield: "Well Kate went and did the next check and think because we'd, I didn't, we didn't all go at that point, just Kate went and, erm, and then came running back saying, she's gone, Gerry Madeleine's gone, and she was sort of borderline hysterical, as you'd expect, and then there was just a blur as everybody then just ran off from the table. Erm, then everybody I think left the table, I mean, I just remember being behind Dave as he was, and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think (inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on G***e to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't remember, but I remember seeing them".

I'm thinking it was Rachel's turn to relieve Jane.

This line stood out to me :
we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful

Well if one of my friends children got missing, first thing I would do was look in the appartment. At that time they didnt know anything else (according to them ) but that she was gone..She could just have wondered off alone or something.. What was so awful that they couldnt get them self to go into the apartment?
I would think thats more of a reaction if you KNOW there is a terrible sight in there, like a dead body or something..

So what was so awful 5 minutes after the alarm was raised ? So awful that they at that point didnt want to enter the appartment ? Makes absolutly no sence to me...unless they knew something awful was to be found in there..

Once again, Moa, the same line jumped up at me too... What on earth is awful about an 'empty' apartment? Sad and shocking if she really had been abducted, but too awful too go in?
No, that I would associate with a nasty bloody scene reminiscent of a horror movie, not an empty bed...

Can you imagine doctors , grownup men that can't enter the apartment because it is so awful.. yet there are two children under 2 years old sleeping there alone...
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 03.01.12 22:25

Moa wrote:
rainbow-fairy wrote:
Moa wrote:
Stella wrote:Matt Oldfield: "Well Kate went and did the next check and think because we'd, I didn't, we didn't all go at that point, just Kate went and, erm, and then came running back saying, she's gone, Gerry Madeleine's gone, and she was sort of borderline hysterical, as you'd expect, and then there was just a blur as everybody then just ran off from the table. Erm, then everybody I think left the table, I mean, I just remember being behind Dave as he was, and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think (inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on G***e to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't remember, but I remember seeing them".

I'm thinking it was Rachel's turn to relieve Jane.

This line stood out to me :
we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful

Well if one of my friends children got missing, first thing I would do was look in the appartment. At that time they didnt know anything else (according to them ) but that she was gone..She could just have wondered off alone or something.. What was so awful that they couldnt get them self to go into the apartment?
I would think thats more of a reaction if you KNOW there is a terrible sight in there, like a dead body or something..

So what was so awful 5 minutes after the alarm was raised ? So awful that they at that point didnt want to enter the appartment ? Makes absolutly no sence to me...unless they knew something awful was to be found in there..

Once again, Moa, the same line jumped up at me too... What on earth is awful about an 'empty' apartment? Sad and shocking if she really had been abducted, but too awful too go in?
No, that I would associate with a nasty bloody scene reminiscent of a horror movie, not an empty bed...

Can you imagine doctors , grownup men that can't enter the apartment because it is so awful.. yet there are two children under 2 years old sleeping there alone...
They were scared of the bogeyman LOL Wink
No, seriously, its shocking really isn't it Moa. Amongst these men are some that we have to entrust with our lives! What a thought. I hope my doctor has a bit more gumption than this lot...

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 03.01.12 23:01

aiyoyo wrote:
rainbow-fairy wrote:I do not believe that the siblings were left alone either. However, I don't believe its because the parents were 'ultra loving and caring' - the whole scenario doesn't work for me.
If they were not abandoned, ie had adult 'supervision' - Madeleine could NOT have been abducted. If she was not abducted, that leaves 'something' happening to her. Some have said 'over-sedation'. Is sedation the actions of a loving, caring parent - I think not. And if they were not left alone, would sedation be needed, anyway?
What I believe we are dealing with here, is the 'something' that happened being so BAD that admitting to neglect and staging an abduction was preferable. Actions of loving caring parents? No.
What could be so bad that it was not feasible to just call an ambulance? Whatever the answer, it isn't caused by the actions of loving caring parents.

I am leaning strongly towards the reason being linked to why it was only men that left the table for at least fifteen minutes or so at a time. Were these 'new men' or something altogether different entirely?
Perhaps we should ask Drs Gaspar...
This I'm sure is why the staged abduction was so important. I can think of very few other reasons why you could not surrender a child's body - couldn't have been an accident. That wouldn't need covering up.
Just my opinion of course, but the more I read the more I'm certain of it...

I beg to differ.
Why made Thursday exceptional and why choose a public restaurant with plenty witnesses to recount their movements? It just does not make sense.
In that grime situation with a death on their hands, only cowardice men would leave such a daunting and dreadful task to the women.
I suspect also the women, being weaker, were not up to going up and down doing pretendy checks knowing what they knew.

I don't entertain anything sinister in the men doing the checks. It was just charade to create an alibi for the abduction.



What is the 'daunting and dreadful task' you speak of, aiyoyo? And why the women too weak to do pretend checks? I'm not sure I've understood you properly.
Why would they need to clear the way and create an alibi for an 'abduction' if something bad hadn't already happened, thus needing to hide the real truth?

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 04.01.12 8:23

anil39200 wrote:
Willo wrote:The reason the restaurant was picked was to give all the T9's an alibi. They were all seen by witnesses outside the group thus all could be counted out of the list of potential 'abductors'. Also giving the T9's a little more breathing space to tidy up after themselves and try to hone their plan as best they could while the authorities chased a fictitious abductor.

I think Madeleine was already dead and whether she died by accident or abuse her body contained evidence enough to possibly uncover something quite horrid that would seem to have far reaching consequences for many of the McCann supporters that have emerged from the woodwork to offer support (financial and otherwise) that at times seems way over the top.

I am with you there.
Me too, especially the last paragraph.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 04.01.12 11:40

Stella wrote:
anil39200 wrote:
Willo wrote:The reason the restaurant was picked was to give all the T9's an alibi. They were all seen by witnesses outside the group thus all could be counted out of the list of potential 'abductors'. Also giving the T9's a little more breathing space to tidy up after themselves and try to hone their plan as best they could while the authorities chased a fictitious abductor.

I think Madeleine was already dead and whether she died by accident or abuse her body contained evidence enough to possibly uncover something quite horrid that would seem to have far reaching consequences for many of the McCann supporters that have emerged from the woodwork to offer support (financial and otherwise) that at times seems way over the top.

I am with you there.
Me too, especially the last paragraph.
And me!
The way I see it, even IF 'cause of death' WAS 'accident', the body obviously could not be allowed to be seen by the authorities therefore being the reason for the monumental cover-up. I'm 99.9% certain in my own mind of the reason too.

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Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by jd on 04.01.12 12:01

But why have the government got so deeply involved and thrown all their big guns to protect them? and the carter rucks?

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 04.01.12 12:11

Perhaps they all go to the same parties, all have the same tastes, all know the same contacts?
There could be many reasons why the Labour Government, under Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, that led to a cover up. It doesn't mean the McCann's are the ones being protected. It could be the reason they were out there, or others who were out there.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by HiDeHo on 04.01.12 12:19

Stella wrote:
anil39200 wrote:
Willo wrote:The reason the restaurant was picked was to give all the T9's an alibi. They were all seen by witnesses outside the group thus all could be counted out of the list of potential 'abductors'. Also giving the T9's a little more breathing space to tidy up after themselves and try to hone their plan as best they could while the authorities chased a fictitious abductor.

I think Madeleine was already dead and whether she died by accident or abuse her body contained evidence enough to possibly uncover something quite horrid that would seem to have far reaching consequences for many of the McCann supporters that have emerged from the woodwork to offer support (financial and otherwise) that at times seems way over the top.

I am with you there.
Me too, especially the last paragraph.



I am also in agreement which inspired me to post the thread with all the info for the week to allow for discussion with easy(er) reference to information for each day.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Nina on 04.01.12 12:41

rainbow-fairy wrote:
Stella wrote:
anil39200 wrote:
Willo wrote:The reason the restaurant was picked was to give all the T9's an alibi. They were all seen by witnesses outside the group thus all could be counted out of the list of potential 'abductors'. Also giving the T9's a little more breathing space to tidy up after themselves and try to hone their plan as best they could while the authorities chased a fictitious abductor.

I think Madeleine was already dead and whether she died by accident or abuse her body contained evidence enough to possibly uncover something quite horrid that would seem to have far reaching consequences for many of the McCann supporters that have emerged from the woodwork to offer support (financial and otherwise) that at times seems way over the top.

I am with you there.
Me too, especially the last paragraph.
And me!
The way I see it, even IF 'cause of death' WAS 'accident', the body obviously could not be allowed to be seen by the authorities therefore being the reason for the monumental cover-up. I'm 99.9% certain in my own mind of the reason too.

Willo, Anil39200, Stella and Rainbow-Fairy I too agree. The body hadn't to be found. But that then would be soft tissue injury, ingestion of drugs or old fractures. Now after all this time only old fractures would be evident or any long term build up of drugs.

Location, position, clothing surrounding area all indicative of how a body got there, and the final fear of evidence overlooked.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 06.01.12 15:01

No I dont not after reading this statements :


Joaquim Baptista

When asked, he said that during dinner the men from the group would leave the table, returning to the table a few minutes later. The witness says that he does not know where they went. These absences would last for about 15 minutes. He cannot say with what regularity these absences occurred.

The witness remembers these occurrences well as would often have to take a plate of food requested by one of them back, due to the guest’s absence, when he would find that the guest was not at the table when he came to serve the food.



Ricardo Oliveria

When asked, he says that he remembers that it was usual during dinner for one or two members of the group to leave the table for about 10 or 15 minutes and given the fact that on various occasions he saw walkie talkies on the table, he supposed that they went to check on their children who were in their respective rooms.


Jeronimo Salcedas

Frequently,when I served the table, I noticed that one or two elements of the group had left the restaurant. I could not imagine where they had gone to. After seeing the news stories, I figured that they had gone to check on their children. On some occasions, I also saw some infant monitors on the same table but never related this to the facts.
'

So if we believe the vaitrers, there where more than one walkie talkie / monitor on the table.. If only payne had one, as they stated, there should only be one monitor on the table, and one in their kids bedroom..
So if more had monitors, they probably put some of the kids together and watched/lissened to them over the monitors. And therefor no need to go check on them every 30 minutes !

So maybe they where left alone, but monitored as to in that sence where not left alone..

(im sorry about my bad english, hope you manage to understand my words :P )
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by HiDeHo on 06.01.12 16:54

One comment from Gerry shortly after 4.25 in Part 2 of 2 in the following videos is, in my opinion, very odd.

Sandra Felguieras mentioned the 15 minute checks....Gerry was very quick to correct her and say it was 30 minutes!

One would think they were happy to have people believing they were vigilant in their checks and not negligent...but it was more important to correct her so there appeared to be more opportunity of an 'abduction' at the expense of being neglectful...

Without 'neglect' there could not have been an abduction!

Absolutely No Evidence of Abduction - PART 1 of 2



Absolutely No Evidence of Abduction - PART 2 of 2

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by dentdelion on 06.01.12 17:53

Just looking at those youtube videos again.... I notice that Kate describes looking into the room and seeing 'Sean and Amelie in the cot' not in their cots.

She again refers to plural predator/abductor in describing that they must have been observing them earlier in the week. Bad enough to imagine your child being taken by a one deranged individual but surely a bit of an exaggeration to to think of her being the subject of an organised crime, a conspiracy. Again no evidence to suggest either scenario.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by jd on 06.01.12 18:07

Great videos again HiDeHo!!!

Those 2 Leicester Sound reporters (girl on the beach) is there any more info on what they found out? She seemed very sure of the truth

I realise now after watching the video the catch phrase the mccanns always use...."small window of opportunity"

watching kate do her reconstruction and the whoosh from the open window when we know this is an absolute lie just stuns me, especially when you think of people like Louise Mensch saying we are ghouls for not believing this proven lie

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by jd on 06.01.12 19:08

Leicester Sound reporters Yvonne Radley and Klara Lethbridge have been working on the Madeleine McCann case since day one.

They decided to go to Portugal to try and answer some of the questions they were hearing from Lecister Sounds listeners:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4ht2ghdoWM

I wonder why Klara felt she had "to be so careful about what I am saying" 2:00 - 2:20...."God I have to be so careful about what I am saying. It's not as straightforward as it seems."

Judging from a quick Google, Klara Lethbridge's vague but very damning words don't seem to have done much for her broadcasting career. It's not hard to understand why so many journalists have chosen the safe option, and backed the McCanns unquestioningly. Note also that Klara Lethbridge page on Wikipedia was removed 30 March, 2009

http://newsoutlines.blogspot.com/2010/04/madeleine-mccann-6-months-gone.html

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 06.01.12 19:22

HiDeHo wrote:One comment from Gerry shortly after 4.25 in Part 2 of 2 in the following videos is, in my opinion, very odd.

Sandra Felguieras mentioned the 15 minute checks....Gerry was very quick to correct her and say it was 30 minutes!

One would think they were happy to have people believing they were vigilant in their checks and not negligent...but it was more important to correct her so there appeared to be more opportunity of an 'abduction' at the expense of being neglectful...

Without 'neglect' there could not have been an abduction!


So we are supposed to believe that they went to check every 30 minutes, and they where gone for 15 minutes on each check ?That do not make sence at all...
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