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Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by puzzled on 02.01.12 11:34

@russiandoll wrote:only one of 2 logical explanations for how Maddie and or her sister or brother were possibly crying for the parents at bath time. They were unsupervised in the bath[ unlikely]............or they were being bathed by someone other than a parent.
Very interesting .

I don't believe MM ever asked this question, but what is interesting about it is that KAteMcCann doesn't seem to see the logical disconnect. Now what does that hint at, I wonder?

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by jd on 02.01.12 12:57

The real question is how could Madeleine have disappeared when she was being looked after?

THATS the question they don't want anyone to ask!

I have always thought what is the one thing that has never been questioned or even slightly looked at or investigated? The main reason they went there, Mark Warner Child Care

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by jd on 02.01.12 14:24

Danny Collins, author of the book 'Vanished, had something very significant to say about the occupation of the apartments by the McCanns and the Tapas Seven.

Mr Collins states that the McCanns were in apartment 5A, as we all know, but that Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien were next door in apartment 5B. This appears to directly contradict Clarence Mitchell's statement that Rachael Oldfield was next door on the evening that Madeleine is alleged to have been left crying, unattended.

What Mr Mitchell actually said was: "Equally, one of the friends, Rachael Oldfield, was in the apartment next door in a bedroom adjacent to the wall where Madeleine was in her bedroom and she heard no crying at all all night."

The natural assumption from Mr Mitchell's statement is that Rachael Oldfield was 'in the apartment next door' because that was her apartment. After all, what would she be doing in somebody elses bedroom, on her own, whilst all the other members of the holidaying party were out enjoying themselves? All night.

Of course, making assumptions is a dangerous thing to do. But it does seem peculiar that Mr Mitchell has specifically identified Rachael Oldfield - why not simply say that the Oldfield's were next door and heard nothing? If she heard nothing all night, then she must have been there all night. If so, where was her husband?

If Mrs Oldfield was alone, it would suggest she was alone for a reason. After all, we have been told, first hand by Kate, that they were operating a system. She said: "We all knew what we had to do, what we would do and.. you know, it worked as a system we had going and it just seemed totally right somehow".

Could it be that Mrs Oldfield was babysitting? That the 'system' involved one member of the group babysitting all the children? There is, it must be stated, no evidence to suggest this is the case but, at one point, there were curious reports of all the children sharing the McCanns' apartment on the night of 3rd May. But was this true or just another flight of fancy?

Mr Collins states that Mark Warner only rented out the ground floor apartments and that the holidaying group were all based on that floor, contradicting previous reports that the Payne's were located on the floor above. Collins says that the Payne's were 'further down the walkway' and that the Oldfield's were based the furthest away from the McCanns' apartment.

So what significance does this have to the whereabouts of Charlotte Pennington on that evening? Possibly, a great deal.

Mr Collins tells us that Ms Pennington was babysitting in a 'nearby apartment' when she heard the screams of Kate McCann. He tells us that Mark Warner only rented the ground floor apartments and so, therefore, we are compelled to ask: Was Ms Pennington babysitting for one of the Tapas group and, if so, which one?

If we are to believe reports, the Payne's were the only couple to own and use a working baby-monitoring device, so would therefore have had no need of a babysitter. The Oldfield's were the furthest away from the McCanns apartment and it would therefore seem very unlikely that Ms Pennington could have heard the screams of Kate, if she was babysitting inside the Oldfield's apartment.

So, that just leaves the apartment of Tanner and O'Brien, next door to the McCanns, where Kate's screams would have been easily heard.

Yet, if Collins is correct in the statements he has committed to print, then two questions immediately spring to mind: Why was Pennington employed as a babysitter, when the group had a communal checking 'system' that supposedly 'worked'? And if Pennington was babysitting the children of Tanner and O'Brien, then why was Russell O'Brien reportedly absent from the group until just before 10:00pm?

Of course, the possibility that there was another family occupying an apartment in the middle of the Tapas groups apartments must be considered. However, it is very curious that if there were such an apartment, and such a family, then why have they never been identified, mentioned or even remotely hinted at?

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by aiyoyo on 02.01.12 15:12

@HiDeHo wrote:Please forgive me for jumping into this thread on page three, I rarely find time to debate some of the issues anymore while creating videos, but this issue is something that I have been posting about for a long time...

This is some of the info and details I have put together on this subject...

According to statements, Matthew Oldfield was in 5B on Sunday night and Rachael was there on Wednesday...(and possibly Tuesday)

This apartment was so close to Apartment 5A that they could hear through the walls....



Tuesday, Russell O'Brien was in apartment 5D with only one apartment separating his apartment from the Oldfields and then the McCanns. (a few steps away if checked from the entrance to the apartments.)

The Paynes had a monitor but were only one floor above.

Quick and easy enough for someone, to keep an eye out for children rather than have everyone keep returning back from the tapas.

Tuesday night, Najoya the quiz mistress did not see Kate or David Payne between approx nine and ten pm so they may have been in the apartments.

Thursday there was only a few minutes during the evening when everyone was (supposedly) at the table.

An adult was very near to the children
Sunday,
Tuesday,
Wednesday
Thursday...

Only Monday is unknown...it is not known if everyone was at the table on Monday, there may have been someone watching the children.

What are the chances that 9 adults would choose to leave their children alone and not ask the person that was close by to keep an eye on them?

Why would they claim they were 'neglecting' their children when, for the most part, there was someone close?...

Because they HAD to?

How could an abduction have happened if the children were being watched?

Who would have been targeted as irresponsible if they claimed the children were being watched and the 'abduction' happened during their time?

They HAD to claim the children were 'neglected' or the 'plan' wouldn't have worked.

How could they have said they were watching the children (as I believe they were) and used an 'abduction' to explain why Madeleine was missing?

They have GAINED from the 'neglect' issue also....

Each time that someone claims they were irresponsible and neglectful to their children, leaving them alone....it infers that Madeleine disappeared because she was left alone, and only supports the abduction theory IMO.

According to the files and the dogs, Madeleine died in the apartment and they had no alternative but to 'suggest' it happened while she was left alone, when it was very probable that she died for another reason and 'abduction' and 'neglect' was the ONLY way they could explain her disappearance, rather than the truth...which could have been that the children were being 'relatively' cared for by someone close by, she died (because of an unknown reason) and they had to hide the truth the only way they knew how....

Madeleine may not have died because she wasn't being looked after.....

To suggest neglect, suggests she was vulnerable to an intruder...which is what they want everyone to believe.

I don't believe it for one minute.....never have.

The real question is how could Madeleine have disappeared when she was being looked after?

THATS the question they don't want anyone to ask!

There are other issues leading me to believe they cared about and looked after their children...

they appear (when reading the statements) to be very caring about their children, (particularly ROB and MO) and childcare was important to them when booking the holiday.

Matthew seems to be stumbling in his Rogatory as if he was claiming about the importance of childcare but attempting to change it to fit with leaving the children alone.

MATTHEW OLDFIELD
we were concerned that if one member of the group, we were all going, oh perhaps we’ll be the Billy no mates, the really unpopular ones will get stuck at the Millennium and, you know, we won’t be able to, we won’t be able to go out and visit our friends because we’re not going to leave, you know, we’re not going to leave to, erm, to go and see them and we won’t be able to share child care and so it would be fairly difficult and it was a big issue because they couldn’t guarantee, the couldn’t allocate the rooms, erm, for us and they said it’ll have to wait until you get in the resort, erm, but in the end it was sort of quite quiet and so they sort of could stick us really close together. I can’t remember why I started talking about that?”


One comment by Rachel about Ella having a bath in their apartment (possibly on Thursday night but could be other nights) made me think...

Why would that happen if the child was staying in her own apartment?

RACHAEL
Reply “Yeah. Erm we went back to the apartments, erm I think err, we all headed off at the same time I think and erm, can’t remember whether that night E**a and, E**a might have had a bath in our apartment with G***e, not sure, I think it might have been that night, but we headed back, yeah probably about half seven, half seven, twenty to eight, which was kind of later than we would normally”.
Waiters claim in their statements that only the men got up from the table, often for periods of 15 minutes, which is longer than the times 'established' to check on the children, and they often reheated their meals.

http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Staff-Rota-and-Statements/Tapas-Waiter-Rota-and-Statements-1-537541.html
Joaquim J.M. BaptistaIt was normal for the men of the dining group, to get up and leave the restaurant and return minutes later. The witness is not aware of where the men were going to but that they would be gone for about 15 minutes;
• The witness can speak clearly to these events because many times he had to bring back the entre/dinner plate of said client(s), until they returned to the table;


For the abduction to have been credible (particularly on Thursday) they had to claim to have left the children but they needed to (in reality) watch the children and so established a timeline that showed the children were left alone even though it was possible someone was watching them.

Apart from the meeting with Jez (on the planned 'abduction' night, I see nothing to confirm they were going backwards and forwards to the apartments to 'check' on children (unless the reception register confirms otherwise) but many things that lead me to believe the possibility the children may have been looked after..

1) The importance of childcare when booking...

2 )Tanner child bathed in Oldfield's apartment at bedtime.

3) Someone missing from the table during the week.

4) Only a few minutes when everyone was at the table on Thursday and unavailable for watching the children (according to their created timeline)

5) Gerry commenting about leaving the children alone (more thn once he said this to Jez - Tuesday lunch and Thursday)

6) MO looking after Evie during the day when ROB needed to do something (will search for statement)

7) The slim chance that 9 responsible adults would ALL decide to not ensure their children were secure and safe while on holiday.

If this was the case and the children WERE watched then I believe the McCanns would be in BIG trouble explaining how and why Madeleine disappeared.

I agree with you. I believe they were caring parents.
Even though they dined out every night the children were watched by at least one adult staying in except for Thursday when the routine was changed? So what caused the routine change? Logical explanation would be an unexpected incident for sure.

And why was thursday the first time the "men" cross checked mccanns apt (according to FP rog interview) but gerry did not have to return the favour.

I don't believe for a moment Russell or Brian checked the mccanns apt at all because it was empty.

They made a show of leaving the table. But when their turn came, they actually headed back to the one apt to check on all the children because they were collectively left in one apt.

If only the twins were transferred to either Russell or Brian's apt, then children in both Brian and Russell's apts were checked by them when their turn came.

They need not check mccanns' apt at all since it was empty (twins in one of their apt and Maddie long disposed off) as demonstrated by Russell's statement that he did not enter but listened by the wall. Also as demonstrated by Maddie's unslept in bed and no bed linens in the cots.

Gerry was the only one who'd to enter his own apt just for show (in case anyone was watching) then got waylaid by Wilkins on his way back.

Only the Paynes didnt have to get up and down because firstly they had baby listening monitor and secondly it would look ridiculous if they were penned in to cross check the mccanns apt when they didn't even have to check their own.

Russell and Brian did not have to check on Paynes child because apart from the listening device they were one level up, not exactly along the way, unlike the rest of their apts lined one after another on ground floor with one empty apt in between.

They were all tagging passively along with mccanns plan to help them stage the neglect scene in order that the abduction can happen.

Without neglect as "alibi" the abduction could not have taken place.

It's funny how no investigators asked gerry why his mates cross checked his children while he did not have to reciprocate the check.
I suspect the investigators already knew the checks was bogus so there was no need to interrupt their statements...just let them hang themselves by the rope.


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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by HiDeHo on 02.01.12 16:06

I found it very 'telling' when Jane Tanner described her actions around the time of the 'abduction'

Jane Tanner at around the time of the 'abduction'...


http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/ALL-TIMETABLES/Timetable-AFTER-10pm-Disappearance-With-phone-info-1-816776.html
"...just standing outside the, the door of the apartment mostly, I didn’t really move. trying to, you know, see what was happening. But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at the bottom of the stairs, I’d come down”.

What stairs? The Paynes?
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by crewman on 02.01.12 16:31

@Nina wrote:HiDeHo, excuse me snipping from your post....

Waiters claim in their statements that only the men got up from the table, often for periods of 15 minutes, which is longer than the times 'established' to check on the children, and they often reheated their meals.

http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Staff-Rota-and-Statements/Tapas-Waiter-Rota-and-Statements-1-537541.html


Joaquim J.M. BaptistaIt was normal for the men of the dining group, to get up and leave the restaurant and return minutes later. The witness is not aware of where the men were going to but that they would be gone for about 15 minutes;
• The witness can speak clearly to these events because many times he had to bring back the entre/dinner plate of said client(s), until they returned to the table;



I have read this so many times and thought up and down like a jack in a box. However today on reading it yet again I took it to mean that all the men together left the table and were gone for about 15 minutes. Does anyone else read it the same and if correct where were they and why. 15 minutes is a long time so not for a toilet visit.

Wow! I'd completely missed this statement and the potential significance of it.

If it was only the men who did in reality leave the table, and for periods of 15 minutes at a time, then this is indicative of something I've felt for a long time. Even stranger if they all left together as well.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Nina on 02.01.12 17:24

@crewman wrote:
@Nina wrote:HiDeHo, excuse me snipping from your post....

Waiters claim in their statements that only the men got up from the table, often for periods of 15 minutes, which is longer than the times 'established' to check on the children, and they often reheated their meals.

http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Staff-Rota-and-Statements/Tapas-Waiter-Rota-and-Statements-1-537541.html


Joaquim J.M. BaptistaIt was normal for the men of the dining group, to get up and leave the restaurant and return minutes later. The witness is not aware of where the men were going to but that they would be gone for about 15 minutes;
• The witness can speak clearly to these events because many times he had to bring back the entre/dinner plate of said client(s), until they returned to the table;




I have read this so many times and thought up and down like a jack in a box. However today on reading it yet again I took it to mean that all the men together left the table and were gone for about 15 minutes. Does anyone else read it the same and if correct where were they and why. 15 minutes is a long time so not for a toilet visit.

Wow! I'd completely missed this statement and the potential significance of it.

If it was only the men who did in reality leave the table, and for periods of 15 minutes at a time, then this is indicative of something I've felt for a long time. Even stranger if they all left together as well.

Hi Crewman. If they left individually, as I have always read it to mean then 15 minutes is a long time, certainly not a quick check and maybe a toilet visit. But today I read it as all the men leaving for 15 minutes, which is still a long time and what about the baby monitor owner, did he go just to make one in, or stay behind.

15 minutes is a very long time. Just sit for 15 minutes doing nothing, it is an age.

And the plates being returned looks like the start of the meal.

Stinks like last weeks leftover turkey imo.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 02.01.12 19:49

I do not believe that the siblings were left alone either. However, I don't believe its because the parents were 'ultra loving and caring' - the whole scenario doesn't work for me.
If they were not abandoned, ie had adult 'supervision' - Madeleine could NOT have been abducted. If she was not abducted, that leaves 'something' happening to her. Some have said 'over-sedation'. Is sedation the actions of a loving, caring parent - I think not. And if they were not left alone, would sedation be needed, anyway?
What I believe we are dealing with here, is the 'something' that happened being so BAD that admitting to neglect and staging an abduction was preferable. Actions of loving caring parents? No.
What could be so bad that it was not feasible to just call an ambulance? Whatever the answer, it isn't caused by the actions of loving caring parents.

I am leaning strongly towards the reason being linked to why it was only men that left the table for at least fifteen minutes or so at a time. Were these 'new men' or something altogether different entirely?
Perhaps we should ask Drs Gaspar...
This I'm sure is why the staged abduction was so important. I can think of very few other reasons why you could not surrender a child's body - couldn't have been an accident. That wouldn't need covering up.
Just my opinion of course, but the more I read the more I'm certain of it...

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by crewman on 03.01.12 2:32

I think that Nina's analysis of the source material, and rainbow-fairy's observation that:

What I believe we are dealing with here, is the 'something' that happened being so BAD that admitting to neglect and staging an abduction was preferable.

is starting to cut close to the bone of this case.

There's an oft-repeated maxim amongst modern day politicians that, in effect, the crime of the cover-up is exponentially worse than the offence itself, and therefore the most sensible route in any situation is to avoid a cover-up at all costs. The exception to this reasoning, however, is when the original transgression is, indeed, so heinous that the most absurd, nay ludicrous, explanation is preferable to the escape of the actual real truth.

I would venture that in this matter, the presence of so eminent a professional lie-monger as Clarence Mitchell points to just such a transgression.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by HiDeHo on 03.01.12 3:54

I agree...the reason to hide her body was bigger than what they have been subjected to since (although they had no knowledge of the enormity of media interest)

Although it is possible that the cause of death could be the reason to have placed so much effort into hiding her body...its also possible that even if she did die accidentally that the results of an autopsy could have far greater implications than the repercussions of negligence.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by tigger on 03.01.12 8:34

@crewman wrote:I think that Nina's analysis of the source material, and rainbow-fairy's observation that:

What I believe we are dealing with here, is the 'something' that happened being so BAD that admitting to neglect and staging an abduction was preferable.

is starting to cut close to the bone of this case.

There's an oft-repeated maxim amongst modern day politicians that, in effect, the crime of the cover-up is exponentially worse than the offence itself, and therefore the most sensible route in any situation is to avoid a cover-up at all costs. The exception to this reasoning, however, is when the original transgression is, indeed, so heinous that the most absurd, nay ludicrous, explanation is preferable to the escape of the actual real truth.

I would venture that in this matter, the presence of so eminent a professional lie-monger as Clarence Mitchell points to just such a transgression.

That's in in a nutshell. Not being the sharpest knives in the drawer the lies are there for all to see.
Just one more thought: Maddie was due to start school that September.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 03.01.12 8:42

@HiDeHo wrote:Although it is possible that the cause of death could be the reason to have placed so much effort into hiding her body...its also possible that even if she did die accidentally that the results of an autopsy could have far greater implications than the repercussions of negligence.
JonBenet Ramsey's autopsey revealed that she had suffered previous sexual abuse, on more than one occasion. Did the authorities do anything about that? No, of course not.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 03.01.12 8:45

Stella wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:Although it is possible that the cause of death could be the reason to have placed so much effort into hiding her body...its also possible that even if she did die accidentally that the results of an autopsy could have far greater implications than the repercussions of negligence.
JonBenet Ramsey's autopsey revealed that she had suffered previous sexual abuse, on more than one occasion. Did the authorities do anything about that? No, of course not.


Really? I did not know that...Wasnt her parents cleared a few years ago? I think I saw the father on Oprah show talking about that.. Always found that case a mysterie too..I always felt the son was involved and the parents trying to cover it up...
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by happychick on 03.01.12 10:31

@tigger wrote:
@crewman wrote:I think that Nina's analysis of the source material, and rainbow-fairy's observation that:

What I believe we are dealing with here, is the 'something' that happened being so BAD that admitting to neglect and staging an abduction was preferable.

is starting to cut close to the bone of this case.

There's an oft-repeated maxim amongst modern day politicians that, in effect, the crime of the cover-up is exponentially worse than the offence itself, and therefore the most sensible route in any situation is to avoid a cover-up at all costs. The exception to this reasoning, however, is when the original transgression is, indeed, so heinous that the most absurd, nay ludicrous, explanation is preferable to the escape of the actual real truth.

I would venture that in this matter, the presence of so eminent a professional lie-monger as Clarence Mitchell points to just such a transgression.

That's in in a nutshell. Not being the sharpest knives in the drawer the lies are there for all to see.
Just one more thought: Maddie was due to start school that September.

And her parents have proved over and over again that they are good at silencing people.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Upsy Daisy on 03.01.12 10:50

so.... had to 'get rid' of evidence of 'damage' before school started...I shudder at the thought.

w.r.t. Jonbenet Ramsey case...read on Moa

http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 03.01.12 13:04

@HiDeHo wrote:I found it very 'telling' when Jane Tanner described her actions around the time of the 'abduction'

Jane Tanner at around the time of the 'abduction'...


http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/ALL-TIMETABLES/Timetable-AFTER-10pm-Disappearance-With-phone-info-1-816776.html
"...just standing outside the, the door of the apartment mostly, I didn’t really move. trying to, you know, see what was happening. But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at the bottom of the stairs, I’d come down”.

What stairs? The Paynes?
Quite possibly, considering Matt Oldfield standing outside 5a, also wanted to go "up" to check on his daughter. His daughter should have been next door in 5a, there should have been no "up" involved, not unless his daughter was also upstairs in the Payne's apartment, when the alarm was raised. winkwink

That's now two incidences to possibly suggest the children were all being looked after in one room.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 03.01.12 13:08

Matt Oldfield: "Well Kate went and did the next check and think because we'd, I didn't, we didn't all go at that point, just Kate went and, erm, and then came running back saying, she's gone, Gerry Madeleine's gone, and she was sort of borderline hysterical, as you'd expect, and then there was just a blur as everybody then just ran off from the table. Erm, then everybody I think left the table, I mean, I just remember being behind Dave as he was, and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think (inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on G***e to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't remember, but I remember seeing them".

I'm thinking it was Rachel's turn to relieve Jane. big grin
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 03.01.12 14:54

Stella wrote:Matt Oldfield: "Well Kate went and did the next check and think because we'd, I didn't, we didn't all go at that point, just Kate went and, erm, and then came running back saying, she's gone, Gerry Madeleine's gone, and she was sort of borderline hysterical, as you'd expect, and then there was just a blur as everybody then just ran off from the table. Erm, then everybody I think left the table, I mean, I just remember being behind Dave as he was, and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think (inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on G***e to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't remember, but I remember seeing them".

I'm thinking it was Rachel's turn to relieve Jane. big grin

This line stood out to me :
we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful

Well if one of my friends children got missing, first thing I would do was look in the appartment. At that time they didnt know anything else (according to them ) but that she was gone..She could just have wondered off alone or something.. What was so awful that they couldnt get them self to go into the apartment?
I would think thats more of a reaction if you KNOW there is a terrible sight in there, like a dead body or something..

So what was so awful 5 minutes after the alarm was raised ? So awful that they at that point didnt want to enter the appartment ? Makes absolutly no sence to me...unless they knew something awful was to be found in there..

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 03.01.12 15:33

Good point Moa. thumbup
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by aquila on 03.01.12 15:43

Moa wrote:
Stella wrote:Matt Oldfield: "Well Kate went and did the next check and think because we'd, I didn't, we didn't all go at that point, just Kate went and, erm, and then came running back saying, she's gone, Gerry Madeleine's gone, and she was sort of borderline hysterical, as you'd expect, and then there was just a blur as everybody then just ran off from the table. Erm, then everybody I think left the table, I mean, I just remember being behind Dave as he was, and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think (inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on G***e to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't remember, but I remember seeing them".

I'm thinking it was Rachel's turn to relieve Jane.

This line stood out to me :
we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful


great point Moa.....it's un-bloody-believable isn't it!
Well if one of my friends children got missing, first thing I would do was look in the appartment. At that time they didnt know anything else (according to them ) but that she was gone..She could just have wondered off alone or something.. What was so awful that they couldnt get them self to go into the apartment?
I would think thats more of a reaction if you KNOW there is a terrible sight in there, like a dead body or something..

So what was so awful 5 minutes after the alarm was raised ? So awful that they at that point didnt want to enter the appartment ? Makes absolutly no sence to me...unless they knew something awful was to be found in there..

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by aiyoyo on 03.01.12 18:21

Stella wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:I found it very 'telling' when Jane Tanner described her actions around the time of the 'abduction'

Jane Tanner at around the time of the 'abduction'...


http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann/ALL-TIMETABLES/Timetable-AFTER-10pm-Disappearance-With-phone-info-1-816776.html
"...just standing outside the, the door of the apartment mostly, I didn’t really move. trying to, you know, see what was happening. But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at the bottom of the stairs, I’d come down”.

What stairs? The Paynes?
Quite possibly, considering Matt Oldfield standing outside 5a, also wanted to go "up" to check on his daughter. His daughter should have been next door in 5a, there should have been no "up" involved, not unless his daughter was also upstairs in the Payne's apartment, when the alarm was raised. winkwink

That's now two incidences to possibly suggest the children were all being looked after in one room.

Putting all the children in Payne's apt would be logical because of the digital listening device.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by aiyoyo on 03.01.12 18:33

@rainbow-fairy wrote:I do not believe that the siblings were left alone either. However, I don't believe its because the parents were 'ultra loving and caring' - the whole scenario doesn't work for me.
If they were not abandoned, ie had adult 'supervision' - Madeleine could NOT have been abducted. If she was not abducted, that leaves 'something' happening to her. Some have said 'over-sedation'. Is sedation the actions of a loving, caring parent - I think not. And if they were not left alone, would sedation be needed, anyway?
What I believe we are dealing with here, is the 'something' that happened being so BAD that admitting to neglect and staging an abduction was preferable. Actions of loving caring parents? No.
What could be so bad that it was not feasible to just call an ambulance? Whatever the answer, it isn't caused by the actions of loving caring parents.

I am leaning strongly towards the reason being linked to why it was only men that left the table for at least fifteen minutes or so at a time. Were these 'new men' or something altogether different entirely?
Perhaps we should ask Drs Gaspar...
This I'm sure is why the staged abduction was so important. I can think of very few other reasons why you could not surrender a child's body - couldn't have been an accident. That wouldn't need covering up.
Just my opinion of course, but the more I read the more I'm certain of it...

I beg to differ.
Why made Thursday exceptional and why choose a public restaurant with plenty witnesses to recount their movements? It just does not make sense.
In that grime situation with a death on their hands, only cowardice men would leave such a daunting and dreadful task to the women.
I suspect also the women, being weaker, were not up to going up and down doing pretendy checks knowing what they knew.
I don't entertain anything sinister in the men doing the checks. It was just charade to create an alibi for the abduction.



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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Ollie on 03.01.12 19:22

I cannot believe that the children were left alone. One of the children had diarrhoea, doctors would have known that her temperature could of gone higher unexpectedly which could of caused hallucinations or even a fit. My daughter, unknown to me had septic tonsilitus, we were due to travel that evening but I cancelled it as she was unwell. Thank goodness I did as her temperature started to climb she became disorientated and started hallucinating, it was one of the scariest things. I called the doctor and was so glad I cancelled our trip as we would of been travelling on the motorway.

Doctors would know better than us all the things medically & accidentally that could go wrong if a child is left alone.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by anil39200 on 03.01.12 19:27

Stella wrote:Matt Oldfield: "Well Kate went and did the next check and think because we'd, I didn't, we didn't all go at that point, just Kate went and, erm, and then came running back saying, she's gone, Gerry Madeleine's gone, and she was sort of borderline hysterical, as you'd expect, and then there was just a blur as everybody then just ran off from the table. Erm, then everybody I think left the table, I mean, I just remember being behind Dave as he was, and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think (inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on G***e to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't remember, but I remember seeing them".

I'm thinking it was Rachel's turn to relieve Jane.



Just a general point and I apologise if this has already come up, it does seem now rather convenient and perhaps "staged" that it was Dr K who is reported to have discovered the empty bed. This IMO is important to the narrative of the tale . If anyone else had made the discovery then we have a scapegoat, however with the "heroine" (please indulge me, I know not what I say..but I know what I mean) making the discovery, the story can run and run. If the group truly were checking in turn then there is a one in nine chance that the same result would happen, so to my mind the fact that the narrative is as it is suggests that the story had to be thought about beforehand so that the person making the discovery was the one who "appeared " to have the most to lose. This would then mean of course that the whole story was prefabricated and for a reason, which may have been that whatever happened to the child happened earlier, and a time was chosen for the execution of the scenario.My question to myself is why? As I am sure many others wonder.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Willo on 03.01.12 20:24

The reason the restaurant was picked was to give all the T9's an alibi. They were all seen by witnesses outside the group thus all could be counted out of the list of potential 'abductors'. Also giving the T9's a little more breathing space to tidy up after themselves and try to hone their plan as best they could while the authorities chased a fictitious abductor.

I think Madeleine was already dead and whether she died by accident or abuse her body contained evidence enough to possibly uncover something quite horrid that would seem to have far reaching consequences for many of the McCann supporters that have emerged from the woodwork to offer support (financial and otherwise) that at times seems way over the top.
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