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Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

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Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by bristow on 21.12.11 15:06

From reading different threads here, I notice some posters believe Madeleine and the twins were left alone and label them neglectful. (hence being an easy target for an "abduction") and some posters don't think she was ever left alone.

My personal belief is that they were never left alone and were most probably in a room with all the other children with a member of their party (or possibly a member of staff from the OC) taking turns to babysit. They are guilty of something far worse IMO.

Which makes the idea that the McCanns were neglectful where babysitting was concerned to be null and void.

What do others believe? Were they left alone or not?
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by uppatoffee on 21.12.11 15:12

I'm with you on this. I think that there was a shift pattern or allocated sick parent/child to hide the fact that they were doing this. The Payne's baby monitor was used as a wallow talkie to communicate to the baby sitter that their food was here/shift change. Baby monitors are two way, so they were effectively used as wallow talkies.

This of course suggests a great deal more planning and begs the question why the McCanns needed to do this and cover it up - leaving them open to charges of neglect. The alternative would have to be so much worse.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by tigger on 21.12.11 15:12

@bristow wrote:From reading different threads here, I notice some posters believe Madeleine and the twins were left alone (hence being an easy target for an "abduction") and some posters don't think she was ever left alone.

My personal belief is that they were never left alone and were most probably in a room with all the other children with a member of their party (or possibly a member of staff from the OC) taking turns to babysit. They are guilty of something far worse IMO.

Which makes the idea that the McCanns were neglectful where babysitting was concerned to be null and void.

What do others believe? Were they left alone or not?

I think quite a lot of us here believe that they looked after their children - there is a very great likelihood that they were never left alone but in a room altogether supervised by one of the Tapas (I read/google Dr. Ludke) most doctors are overprotective of their children, because they see so many results of accidents in the home or elsewhere. For the abduction to work they had to sacrifice their reputation as normal, responsible parents.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Daisy on 21.12.11 15:15

No Bristow, I don't believe they were ever left alone. I'm also convinced that the McCann's knew Nanny Charlotte Pennington waaaaaaay before PDL. So your theory of a member of MW staff helping (which ever tapas member was off 'sick' that night) to mind the children makes a lot of sense to me.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by bristow on 21.12.11 15:18

@Daisy wrote:No Bristow, I don't believe they were ever left alone. I'm also convinced that the McCann's knew Nanny Charlotte Pennington waaaaaaay before PDL. So your theory of a member of MW staff helping (which ever tapas member was off 'sick' that night) to mind the children makes a lot of sense to me.

Yes it was Charlotte Pennington I had in mind.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 21.12.11 15:26

I agree also Bristow. Anything else doesn't make any sense to me. I think some people believe this but still wonder why none of the T9 weren't at least charged with neglect. I think it was done like that for 2 reasons. First as a smokescreen, if people consider them likely to have neglected the kids it's an easier thing to forgive than the alternative. It's a bit like pleading guilty to a lesser charge. Following the same logic there's lots of witness evidence that they were all missing from the Tapas doing the checks at regular intervals for many nights. But nothing really denying the checks. Second is because they couldn't have the PJ's interview the designated babysitter for the night.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 21.12.11 15:35

No. Never. Not once.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Upsy Daisy on 21.12.11 15:40

Hi Molly,

I just cannot believe they would leave their children and be so bare faced about it. As a mother of a small child, I find it too hard to accept that so many of them would just 'unemotionally' leave their kids and trot off to their evenings. It goes against every grain of my being as a mother so, no I think there has to have been a cover up, it's not natural to leave small children alone, not now not ever, across the board, so why so many of them say they did is is a definite smokescreen to hide some other goings on. From what I have been reading and historic connections being made between Kate and CP and family in NZ, I'd say it's probably likely she provided a helping hand.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Nina on 21.12.11 15:47

I don't think the children were left alone either, that is except for Madeleine and I believe that she was alone in 5A.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 21.12.11 17:42

They told Jez Wilkins other half the kids were alone, because she admitted she admired them for it (I know, as if!) and the Mrs Fenn crying incident, so I am not sure of this at all. If they were not alone it makes it very strange, they had made no secret of it as far as I am aware. I really don't know. It would not be unusual for Mark Warner guests to be the sort of person who thinks it's OK, as the baby listening service at other resorts was proof of. There are quite a few people prepared to leave their babies to go out and eat, which is sad. I remember Fiona Phillips saying that on one holiday she had left her children alone in a hotel room whilst she was dining, and they had escaped and were running amock in the corridors, or something similar and I remember thinking what a selfish woman.

I am beginning to wonder about the kids being left alone, because for all 9 adults to consider it OK is a might too much to believe, but then maybe none of them are very bright. In fact judging by the influencial supporters comments over the last 4 1/2 years money and status seem to drain the IQ from people in an alarming fashion.

Levesons comments prove he's not the brightest fairy light on the tree if he believes that it is accepted by all that the Mc's version is unquestionable, I don't know a single person who does not believe the story is suspicious at the very least.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 22.12.11 9:56

I understand what you mean, Smokeandmirrors, I have also seen people leave their children sleeping while they went for a meal. But I do think this situation is a bit different. Take a couple who have a child in a hotel room, what do they do after the child goes to sleep? Probably need to keep the lights turned off, usually all in one room. Yes, I can see how you might decide to go downstairs to a restaurant. You'd be pretty confident that nobody could break in to the room, would do some routine checks and might even have a word with the receptionist if the kids were older just in case any of them would wake & ramble.

But these are apartments that are spread out and between them there are 8 children under the age of 4. There is no direct view of all the apartments from the Tapas. "It was like dining in our back garden", why wouldn't they dine in one of the gardens? They'd already arranged to have apartments close together so they could share childminding. So why would they put themselves through the grief of running up and down checking particularly having to enter the apartments from the front where it was dark & isolated? They were a big group, didn't really need any other company and the Tapas wasn't particularly busy either.

I think Tigger has a point, doctors would know better than anyone about the many dangers a child would face being left alone. And I also agree with Upsy Daisy, these are very young children, there's no way 9 people would make such a decision. I know Mrs Fenn wasn't lying but it's easy to fake a crying scene to corroborate and I think Jez Wilkin's statement is all too helpful. I think it's too much of a coincidence that someone was missing every night, the chances of something happening to somebody every night are pretty low and if something was wrong with one of the kids - especially upset stomach it'd spook all the others.

But I find Kate's demeanour during the "Why didn't you come when Sean & me were crying" is the most telling. When you look at her eyes you can see she doesn't register any guilt or worry, she seems confident that the babysitter was doing their job and nobody gave her any reports of disturbed children. I also find it interesting that she uses the phrase "did she mean while they were getting a bath" and to me she's also telling the truth except where and who were they getting the bath from? The bath/milk/cookies/story/teeth doesn't seem to ring true.
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that bath statement in her book

Post by russiandoll on 22.12.11 18:00

only one of 2 logical explanations for how Maddie and or her sister or brother were possibly crying for the parents at bath time. They were unsupervised in the bath[ unlikely]............or they were being bathed by someone other than a parent.
Very interesting .

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 22.12.11 19:35

Personally I think the "crying" remark was, like so many other things, just a complete fabrication, the purpose of which - as has been said elsewhere - was to convey the impression that Madeleine was still alive and well on Thursday morning.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Invinoveritas on 22.12.11 20:23

Marian wrote:Personally I think the "crying" remark was, like so many other things, just a complete fabrication, the purpose of which - as has been said elsewhere - was to convey the impression that Madeleine was still alive and well on Thursday morning.

Yes Marian, it is the same as when Kate writes in her book that on the 8th of september, that because of the journalists and photographers, the family took Amelie and Sean, using the side entrance, for lunch and a swim, quote from the book:

In view of the immovable wall of jounalists, cameramen and film crews that remained outside the villa all day, Gerry and I felt it would be prudent to stay on the premises. The rest of the family, using the side entrance, took Amelie and Sean for some lunch and a swim.

unquote

If we use Google Earth and enter Rua das Flores, 27, Lagos, then it becomes clear that there is no side entrance to the villa, also entering 23,24,25,26, etc. just confirms this. If I am wrong then please confirm and correct me

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 22.12.11 20:49

The only problem I have with the crying comment being made up to prove M being alive, is that why say she was crying? Why not some other thing? It was bad enough outraging the public by saying the babies were alone and that it was reasonable parenting etc etc, but to add into the mix that one or more of the babies was distressed at some point and there was no-one there for them makes them sound far to casual about their arrangements. And this revelation came after they were made aware of the public disgust at lone babies. It would be more normal to keep it to oneself!

I can only assume that this comment was made to either insinuate a previous attempt by Eggman, OR that something had happened to one of the children in their absence and this was to cover a potential witness saying they heard a distressed child, and by saying that M had mentioned it, moved on (insert strange sneer) and it was no big deal it would minimise any other statement by another party.

But like every other aspect it makes no sense to an outside spectator of the case.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by monkey mind on 22.12.11 21:42

Cutting to the chase I think what truly mattered was that they *appeared* to be left on their own. Crucial really.

The fact that four families all appeared to leave their children on their own would later serve to soften the fall out, as mitigation against calls of neglect....

We thought it would be perfectly safe.... We all did it see....Must have been fine, we all did it see.... Just like having dinner in the garden right.... we’ve all done that right?... Well okay, not our garden...someone else’s garden.....in a different road.....and erm...not actually in the garden....in the house......someone else's house.....in another country.....at night....

So nothing like eating at one’s own garden table then.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by monkey mind on 22.12.11 21:51

Of course, if we could somehow prove that these children were not left on their own. Well then the whole house of cards really would come tumbling down on their heads just like Solomon’s temple. So it’s really worth continuing to dig on this aspect, looking for an opening. The fact that it had to appear so despite criticism that would undoubtedly ensue shows how important it actually was.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by uppatoffee on 22.12.11 22:13

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:The only problem I have with the crying comment being made up to prove M being alive, is that why say she was crying? Why not some other thing? It was bad enough outraging the public by saying the babies were alone and that it was reasonable parenting etc etc, but to add into the mix that one or more of the babies was distressed at some point and there was no-one there for them makes them sound far to casual about their arrangements. And this revelation came after they were made aware of the public disgust at lone babies. It would be more normal to keep it to oneself!

I can only assume that this comment was made to either insinuate a previous attempt by Eggman, OR that something had happened to one of the children in their absence and this was to cover a potential witness saying they heard a distressed child, and by saying that M had mentioned it, moved on (insert strange sneer) and it was no big deal it would minimise any other statement by another party.

But like every other aspect it makes no sense to an outside spectator of the case.

In typical McCann style this was them reacting to the Fenn story. Trying to explain it away.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Guest on 22.12.11 22:41

I think the whole point behind Kate's crying story was she was implying that the children were being watched, an abductor had disturbed them and fled the previous night.

But I think that if you realize the children were not alone then the whole case becomes very sinister. Because what really happened and on whose watch? The tapas checking alibi was in place for days, all of the witnesses statements confirm it. Then when you look at Stella's work on the creche sheets there's no escaping from the fact that it was in place right from the start. Monkey Mind, if only it could be proven.

A seriously good question by Bristow.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by littlepixie on 22.12.11 23:55

I dread to think of the REAL reason why they "said" they left their kids alone. They all knew they would be slated for evermore for leaving their three babies under 4 alone, they KNEW how people would despise them for it. They also knew that Social Services would give them a damn good talking to and a warning for it, yet it was worth it to them to say they weren't there when "whatever happened, happened".

And a Paedophile abducted her . . . .
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by aquila on 23.12.11 2:47

If the children were left alone why was Madeleine on top of the bed and not under a sheet or a blanket? (earlier reports that her bed was undisturbed) and yet KM intimated it was windy in the Tapas bar? Sheets on beds in holiday places on the Med are notoriously easily crumpled. In my experience they hardly ever fit the bed. So, are we to believe that there was a pristine bed, with a cuddly toy and a pink comfort blanket? Doesn't add up to me.

I have my own thoughts on what went on. I'd be surprised if I'm not alone in them.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Genbug on 27.12.11 9:39

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:They told Jez Wilkins other half the kids were alone, because she admitted she admired them for it (I know, as if!) and the Mrs Fenn crying incident, so I am not sure of this at all.



In my opinion, this is exactly why I don't believe the children were left alone. If you truly were going to do that, you wouldn't be telling complete strangers (O'Donnell, Wilkins, receptionist and goodness knows who else) that you have left your small children all alone. Imagine leaving your small children at home alone and then walking along the High Street telling casual aquaintances you meet on the way that you have left your children at home alone! You just wouldn't do it.



Also, I know there are statements from waiters etc. saying that various members of the group were leaving the table at regular intervals. After the event they all ASSUMED it was because they were checking the children, but of course nobody knows that for certain, they could have been going off and doing anything!

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by sharonl on 27.12.11 9:46

According to the Portuguese police, the abduction was staged.

The abduction story would not have worked if the parents were present at the time.

If Madeleine had disappeared before May 3rd and the abduction was staged, the twins would have been left home alone for a few nights in order to prove that this was the usual behaviour of the parents.

I remember the OC staff saying that they didn't realise that the McCanns had any children because they had never seen them together.

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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by HiDeHo on 01.01.12 23:23

Please forgive me for jumping into this thread on page three, I rarely find time to debate some of the issues anymore while creating videos, but this issue is something that I have been posting about for a long time...

This is some of the info and details I have put together on this subject...

According to statements, Matthew Oldfield was in 5B on Sunday night and Rachael was there on Wednesday...(and possibly Tuesday)

This apartment was so close to Apartment 5A that they could hear through the walls....



Tuesday, Russell O'Brien was in apartment 5D with only one apartment separating his apartment from the Oldfields and then the McCanns. (a few steps away if checked from the entrance to the apartments.)

The Paynes had a monitor but were only one floor above.

Quick and easy enough for someone, to keep an eye out for children rather than have everyone keep returning back from the tapas.

Tuesday night, Najoya the quiz mistress did not see Kate or David Payne between approx nine and ten pm so they may have been in the apartments.

Thursday there was only a few minutes during the evening when everyone was (supposedly) at the table.

An adult was very near to the children
Sunday,
Tuesday,
Wednesday
Thursday...

Only Monday is unknown...it is not known if everyone was at the table on Monday, there may have been someone watching the children.

What are the chances that 9 adults would choose to leave their children alone and not ask the person that was close by to keep an eye on them?

Why would they claim they were 'neglecting' their children when, for the most part, there was someone close?...

Because they HAD to?

How could an abduction have happened if the children were being watched?

Who would have been targeted as irresponsible if they claimed the children were being watched and the 'abduction' happened during their time?

They HAD to claim the children were 'neglected' or the 'plan' wouldn't have worked.

How could they have said they were watching the children (as I believe they were) and used an 'abduction' to explain why Madeleine was missing?

They have GAINED from the 'neglect' issue also....

Each time that someone claims they were irresponsible and neglectful to their children, leaving them alone....it infers that Madeleine disappeared because she was left alone, and only supports the abduction theory IMO.

According to the files and the dogs, Madeleine died in the apartment and they had no alternative but to 'suggest' it happened while she was left alone, when it was very probable that she died for another reason and 'abduction' and 'neglect' was the ONLY way they could explain her disappearance, rather than the truth...which could have been that the children were being 'relatively' cared for by someone close by, she died (because of an unknown reason) and they had to hide the truth the only way they knew how....

Madeleine may not have died because she wasn't being looked after.....

To suggest neglect, suggests she was vulnerable to an intruder...which is what they want everyone to believe.

I don't believe it for one minute.....never have.

The real question is how could Madeleine have disappeared when she was being looked after?

THATS the question they don't want anyone to ask!

There are other issues leading me to believe they cared about and looked after their children...

they appear (when reading the statements) to be very caring about their children, (particularly ROB and MO) and childcare was important to them when booking the holiday.

Matthew seems to be stumbling in his Rogatory as if he was claiming about the importance of childcare but attempting to change it to fit with leaving the children alone.

MATTHEW OLDFIELD
we were concerned that if one member of the group, we were all going, oh perhaps we’ll be the Billy no mates, the really unpopular ones will get stuck at the Millennium and, you know, we won’t be able to, we won’t be able to go out and visit our friends because we’re not going to leave, you know, we’re not going to leave to, erm, to go and see them and we won’t be able to share child care and so it would be fairly difficult and it was a big issue because they couldn’t guarantee, the couldn’t allocate the rooms, erm, for us and they said it’ll have to wait until you get in the resort, erm, but in the end it was sort of quite quiet and so they sort of could stick us really close together. I can’t remember why I started talking about that?”


One comment by Rachel about Ella having a bath in their apartment (possibly on Thursday night but could be other nights) made me think...

Why would that happen if the child was staying in her own apartment?

RACHAEL
Reply “Yeah. Erm we went back to the apartments, erm I think err, we all headed off at the same time I think and erm, can’t remember whether that night E**a and, E**a might have had a bath in our apartment with G***e, not sure, I think it might have been that night, but we headed back, yeah probably about half seven, half seven, twenty to eight, which was kind of later than we would normally”.
Waiters claim in their statements that only the men got up from the table, often for periods of 15 minutes, which is longer than the times 'established' to check on the children, and they often reheated their meals.

http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Staff-Rota-and-Statements/Tapas-Waiter-Rota-and-Statements-1-537541.html
Joaquim J.M. BaptistaIt was normal for the men of the dining group, to get up and leave the restaurant and return minutes later. The witness is not aware of where the men were going to but that they would be gone for about 15 minutes;
• The witness can speak clearly to these events because many times he had to bring back the entre/dinner plate of said client(s), until they returned to the table;


For the abduction to have been credible (particularly on Thursday) they had to claim to have left the children but they needed to (in reality) watch the children and so established a timeline that showed the children were left alone even though it was possible someone was watching them.

Apart from the meeting with Jez (on the planned 'abduction' night, I see nothing to confirm they were going backwards and forwards to the apartments to 'check' on children (unless the reception register confirms otherwise) but many things that lead me to believe the possibility the children may have been looked after..

1) The importance of childcare when booking...

2 )Tanner child bathed in Oldfield's apartment at bedtime.

3) Someone missing from the table during the week.

4) Only a few minutes when everyone was at the table on Thursday and unavailable for watching the children (according to their created timeline)

5) Gerry commenting about leaving the children alone (more thn once he said this to Jez - Tuesday lunch and Thursday)

6) MO looking after Evie during the day when ROB needed to do something (will search for statement)

7) The slim chance that 9 responsible adults would ALL decide to not ensure their children were secure and safe while on holiday.

If this was the case and the children WERE watched then I believe the McCanns would be in BIG trouble explaining how and why Madeleine disappeared.
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Re: Do you believe Madeleine and siblings were left alone?

Post by Nina on 02.01.12 10:44

HiDeHo, excuse me snipping from your post....

Waiters claim in their statements that only the men got up from the table, often for periods of 15 minutes, which is longer than the times 'established' to check on the children, and they often reheated their meals.

http://madeleinemccann.aimoo.com/Staff-Rota-and-Statements/Tapas-Waiter-Rota-and-Statements-1-537541.html


Joaquim J.M. BaptistaIt was normal for the men of the dining group, to get up and leave the restaurant and return minutes later. The witness is not aware of where the men were going to but that they would be gone for about 15 minutes;
• The witness can speak clearly to these events because many times he had to bring back the entre/dinner plate of said client(s), until they returned to the table;



I have read this so many times and thought up and down like a jack in a box. However today on reading it yet again I took it to mean that all the men together left the table and were gone for about 15 minutes. Does anyone else read it the same and if correct where were they and why. 15 minutes is a long time so not for a toilet visit.

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