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Madeleine's Control Sample

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Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Guest on 01.12.11 15:01

I still find it very hard to believe that Madeleine's heel prick test was given as a sample of her DNA. Is there any paperwork in the files to support this?

Where did it come from? Surely, it is not returned to the parents after the Midwife has used it, so where did it come from?

If they had this heel prick test all along to define her DNA profile, why was it then necessary to take back to Portugal her pillow slip? I'm confused.

These questions have been bugging me for ages, along with the following thought.

What if Gerry had swabbed his and Kate's mouth for DNA and taken it back to the UK, could these samples then be used to create a unique new set of 19 markers to pass off as Madeleine's DNA? Is that even possible?
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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Invinoveritas on 01.12.11 15:24

Have just found this article in an older DM online, it makes interesting reading!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1280891/NHS-creates-secret-database-babies-blood-samples-parental-consent.html

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Guest on 01.12.11 15:28

This section is interesting too.

01-01-Outros Apensos I, Volume I Pages 202 to 204

Date: 28.08.2007

Letter to Dr. Gonçalo Amaral from the PT Genetic & Biological Forensic Service

I attach a response to your questions.

Warmest compliments,
Director of the Genetic & Biological Forensic Service,
Dr. Rosa Maria Espinheira


RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS

-
None of the samples received by this institute were designated as relating to the missing child, so an answer to your question cannot be provided.


- Samples were investigated - hairs and cloth, and DNA profiles were obtained in only four cases and when compared with the DNA of Gerald and Kate McCann it was found that they cannot be related to the child.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm
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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Guest on 01.12.11 15:30

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Guest on 01.12.11 15:31

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Guest on 01.12.11 15:51

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Guest on 01.12.11 15:53

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Invinoveritas on 01.12.11 15:57

Stella, I'm a bit slow on the uptake today , are the hairs and pillow-case from Rothely?

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Guest on 01.12.11 15:59

I've looked everywhere I normally look and for the life of me cannot find anything pertaining to this 'heel prick test'.

Does it even exist, or was it a forum myth?
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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Guest on 01.12.11 16:00

Invinoveritas wrote:Stella, I'm a bit slow on the uptake today , are the hairs and pillow-case from Rothely?

The pillow case certainly is, I'm not sure about the hairs.
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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by uppatoffee on 01.12.11 16:06

It does seem a bit odd if it was the sample used. However, if you have suspicions about the parents, a heel prick sample done at birth may have been the best to use as you are sure that it was definitely Madeleine. The fact Gerry had to go home to find a DNA sample must have made the PJ very suspicious! big grin
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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Guest on 01.12.11 16:10

Invinoveritas wrote:Have just found this article in an older DM online, it makes interesting reading!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1280891/NHS-creates-secret-database-babies-blood-samples-parental-consent.html
DNA from millions of newborn babies is secretly stored on NHS database


DNA taken from millions of newborn babies is quietly being stored by hospitals without proper parental consent.
The blood samples, taken in heel-prick tests that check for serious conditions, can be accessed by police, coroners and medical researchers, Freedom of Information Act requests reveal.
Despite Government guidelines advising hospitals to destroy the DNA after five years, some facilities have kept them on file for more than 20 years – prompting fears that a covert database is being created.
Campaigners claim the 32-page leaflets - explaining that newborns’ DNA will be stored – handed to new mothers, does not constitute consent for hospitals to carry out further research.
Nor, they say, does it make clear the samples could be accessed by the police to identify people involved in crimes.
And, although the DNA of each child is stored anonymously, The UK Newborn Screening Programme Centre, which oversees the use of samples, say they could be linked to hospital admissions and the child could be identified that way.
The samples can also be accessed by private medical companies and have been used for genetic research and mass screening for diseases such as HIV in babies’ mothers.
Dr Helen Wallace, of GeneWatch, told the Sunday Times: 'We do not want to put mothers off having these tests as they are very important for their babies’ health, but the key issue really is how long these samples are being stored for. Some hospitals are hanging on to them indefinitely.
‘Giving a new mother a leaflet does not amount to informed consent. We would like to see a system brought in across the whole country which would see all samples destroyed after a certain period of time.’
She added: ‘No one who has just given birth is in a state to understand the full implications of how their baby’s genome might be used in future.’
More than 700,000 babies aged five to eight days old are screened every year for a number of serious conditions such as sickle cell and cystic fibrosis.

According to FOI requests, four million samples are currently being held at four centres in the country.
One million have been in storage dating from 1984 at Central Manchester University Hospitals Trust. It has about 250,000 in its laboratory which it plans to store indefinitely.
Cambridge University Hospitals Trust stores 400,000 samples at Endex archives in Ipswich and 62,800 in its labs – they are kept for 18 years.
About 120,000 samples are taken every year at Great Ormond Street hospital in London, a practice it began in 1990. It confirmed that it had occasionally handed samples, which it keeps for 20 years, to coroners but not to the police.
In order to obtain access to an individual sample, officers would need to obtain a court order.
Campaigners have urged Andrew Lansley, the new Secretary of State for Health, to launch an inquiry into the practice.
Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, said: ‘As someone who gave consent for my own baby to be tested, I’m horrified that anyone would breach my trust, keep my child’s sample for years on end and use it for all sorts of extraneous purposes,’ she said.
‘If they think that thrusting a leaflet in an exhausted new mother’s hand creates informed consent, they can look forward to a flurry of claims under article 8 of the Human Rights Act.
‘Liberty is writing to the new health secretary to ask for an urgent investigation.’
A spokesman for the Department of Health said: ‘Blood spot screening is an important test carried out to identify serious conditions in newborn babies.
'Research on blood spots left over once screening tests have been completed have led to medical advances benefiting children and their families.
‘There are strict safeguards in place that protect the sample once it is taken. Parents are well informed about newborn screening and the sample storage. They receive a number of information packs during pregnancy and afterbirth.’


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1280891/NHS-creates-secret-database-babies-blood-samples-parental-consent.html#ixzz1fIeLQUdE
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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Invinoveritas on 01.12.11 17:33

Stella wrote:
Invinoveritas wrote:Stella, I'm a bit slow on the uptake today , are the hairs and pillow-case from Rothely?

The pillow case certainly is, I'm not sure about the hairs.

RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS

- None of the samples received by this institute were designated as relating to the missing child, so an answer to your question cannot be provided.

- Samples were investigated - hairs and cloth, and DNA profiles were obtained in only four cases and when compared with the DNA of Gerald and Kate McCann it was found that they cannot be related to the child.


I assume this quote refers to the pillow-case and hairs "recovered" from their home.


- The traces were then studied for mitochondrial DNA as were all the references with results in accordance with our conclusions in the report dated July 9, 2007 - Proc 2007/000226/LX-BC.

- Regarding your request no. 5, determine if the 'profile' obtained by the British laboratory may pertain to a child of the McCann couple.


Could this be the "heel test?"


- We carried out a profile comparison obtained from the autosomal STRs of Kate McCann and Gerald McCann and of the profile sent us.

- The probability of the McCann couple being the biological parents of the female individual in that test is 99,9828 %.

Lisbon, 20th August, 2007

This laboratory report tells about the examinations made of two trace evidence
recoveries, one behind the living room sofa in apartment 5A and the other in the
boot area of the vehicle used by the McCann family, hired by them
from the end of May this year.

In some of these recoveries (samples) DNA was found whose components are also
found in the profile of Madeleine McCann.

With respect to the trace evidence recovered behind the sofa all the confirmed
DNA components coincide with corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann.

In the sample collected in the boot area of the vehicle, 15 of the identified
DNA components coincide with the corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann, this of [having] 19 components.

Portimao, 11 September 2007

So, what on earth were they thinking about producing "evidence" that had no DNA connection to Madeleine? Lies have short legs.[/size]

all to be found in the link that you posted:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm


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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Daisy on 01.12.11 19:56

More than 10,000 babies in Leicestershire had their DNA stored on
an NHS database last year without the proper consent of their parents,
it has been claimed.


Blood samples are taken from newborn infants around the country
in routine heel prick tests to screen for serious health problems.










  1. Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, has raised concerns about the baby DNA database















But it has emerged they are banked in databases for years
by hospitals, and could be accessed by police looking to identify
criminal suspects.

Medical researchers can also gain access to them, prompting
concerns that a national DNA database is being created by the back door.

Mothers are given leaflets explaining their child's blood will be
stored for "at least five years", but campaigners say parents are not
being properly informed that some hospitals are holding samples
indefinitely and that they might be used in police inquiries.

Dr Helen Wallace, director of pressure group GeneWatch, said it
was important for mothers to agree to the tests for the benefit of their
children's health.

But she said parents were not being asked for "fully informed
consent" – and said new mums were not always in the best position to
take in information about the storage of their child's DNA.

Dr Wallace said: "Giving mothers a leaflet does not amount to informed consent.

"No one who has just given birth is in a state to understand the
full implications of how their baby's genome might be used in future.

"There are companies with a commercial interest in sequencing
genomes – we don't want that to happen without parents being aware of
what's going on."

Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, has raised concerns and
has written to Health Secretary Andrew Lansley to ask for an
investigation.

The Department of Health said there were "strict safeguards" in place.

It added that on the "very rare occasions" when police wanted
access to the samples, they would have to get a court order. The
department said parents were "well informed" about screening and sample
storage.

Figures from University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust show
that between 10,000 and 11,000 infants had the heel prick test last
year.


Parents who agree to the test are automatically agreeing for the sample to go on the database.

A spokeswoman for the trust said mums were given leaflets before and after birth.

She said: "Very few parents decline the test for their child."

The trust would not comment further.

Sir Peter Soulsby, MP for Leicester South, said: "It's right that
mothers are made fully aware that the data may be stored, but on the
other hand it's important that health authorities are able to take and
screen these samples.

"What matters is that we are aware of the potential for abuse and put in safeguards to avoid it."

The blood samples, which are taken from babies aged five to eight
days, are tested for conditions such as sickle cell disorders and
cystic fibrosis.

Samples taken in Leicestershire are sent to a centre at Sheffield Children's Hospital.
http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/FEAR-BABY-DNA-DATABASE/story-12058450-detail/story.html

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Gillyspot on 01.12.11 20:12

Hi Daisy

That mentions only last year (i.e. 2008 - 2009) so shouldn't apply to Madeleine's year of birth.

I have had a really horrible thought of where they could have got the DNA from - embryos from their IVF). If you want to delete this post then do as I didn't really want to post it. Awful if this is what they have done.

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Ollie on 01.12.11 20:52

Stellas post at the top of this page, it says that some hospitals have been keeping the DNA (presumably from heel prick test) for more than 20 years.

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Daisy on 01.12.11 20:53

No disrespect Gillyspot, but it's been going on a lot longer than that; I remember reading about it in-depth many years ago. I suspect it's been happening since the National DNA database was first set up, when that was I don't know. You can choose to believe the 'official' version though

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Badboys on 01.12.11 20:59

THEnhs was set up 1948,methinks.

the prick cells things started about 1990,supposedly

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Daisy on 01.12.11 22:05

No it was much earlier than the 90's even. The Guthrie test (as it was previously known) was first devised in 1962 and widely used by the late 60's. They've been collecting DNA (globally) for decades.

Australia:

If it was decreed that every Australian should have their
fingerprints put on record there’d be an outrage. Yet something more
personal than a fingerprint is on record for almost every Australian
born after 1970 - a sample of their DNA.
The DNA collection came about
accidentally because of Guthrie Cards - a blood sample taken from every
baby, to check for diseases. This DNA database has been inadvertently
collected and kept by hospitals around the country and only now experts
are realising what they have. DNA tells such personal things as the
diseases we are likely to get and who are the true parents in our family
trees. Yet there are no laws protecting this database.

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s867619.htm

USA: (old article)
Who Owns Your Baby’s DNA?

It’s a simple question. Who owns the genetic material that makes us human? And for parents, who owns your baby’s DNA? The
proper answer should be that nobody should be able to own or control
your DNA, or your child’s DNA, and that you should be able to control
access to this information. But reality is quite different. You may be
surprised to learn that states have been collecting DNA from newborns
and storing it. And they now have millions of samples, with very few
controls over what they can use this information for.


Last year, the Congress passed S. 1858. This bill allows the federal
government to collect and store DNA of newborns without any permission
required. It essentially stripped average citizens of their genetic
privacy rights. Some states though are trying to do something about it.

Cont... http://www.bloggersbase.com/politics-and-opinions/who-owns-your-babys-dna/

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Guest on 02.12.11 8:39

Invinoveritas wrote:
Stella wrote:
Invinoveritas wrote:Stella, I'm a bit slow on the uptake today , are the hairs and pillow-case from Rothely?

The pillow case certainly is, I'm not sure about the hairs.

RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS

- None of the samples received by this institute were designated as relating to the missing child, so an answer to your question cannot be provided.

- Samples were investigated - hairs and cloth, and DNA profiles were obtained in only four cases and when compared with the DNA of Gerald and Kate McCann it was found that they cannot be related to the child.


I assume this quote refers to the pillow-case and hairs "recovered" from their home.

I took this to be as collected from apartment 5a, which is why it says "none of the samples received", as in collected from 5a. Which is why Goncalo Amaral talks about nothing found in the apartment came from Madeleine.

What came from Rothley, allegedly did not match to Kate, Gerry and the twins, so was assumed to be from Madeleine.
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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by joyce1938 on 02.12.11 8:49

I hope its o k for me to say this ,but a lot can be retreaved from maddie case files ,it was gone into a lot over last year or so ,and one or two on there are very familier with it all,sometimes we can read but can get confused on some points due to back and forht people posting,no easy task .remove if this is not what you want on here joyce1938
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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Guest on 02.12.11 9:06

joyce1938 wrote:I hope its o k for me to say this ,but a lot can be retreaved from maddie case files ,it was gone into a lot over last year or so ,and one or two on there are very familier with it all,sometimes we can read but can get confused on some points due to back and forht people posting,no easy task .remove if this is not what you want on here joyce1938

I used to post on MCF's joyce, until I and others were no longer allowed to discuss some very important concerns over the creche records, which is why I left.

This forum now holds the best sources of research, which is why I never feel the need to visit any other Madeleine forum.
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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by Invinoveritas on 02.12.11 10:19

Stella wrote:
Invinoveritas wrote:
Stella wrote:
Invinoveritas wrote:Stella, I'm a bit slow on the uptake today , are the hairs and pillow-case from Rothely?

The pillow case certainly is, I'm not sure about the hairs.

RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS

- None of the samples received by this institute were designated as relating to the missing child, so an answer to your question cannot be provided.

- Samples were investigated - hairs and cloth, and DNA profiles were obtained in only four cases and when compared with the DNA of Gerald and Kate McCann it was found that they cannot be related to the child.


I assume this quote refers to the pillow-case and hairs "recovered" from their home.

I took this to be as collected from apartment 5a, which is why it says "none of the samples received", as in collected from 5a. Which is why Goncalo Amaral talks about nothing found in the apartment came from Madeleine.

What came from Rothley, allegedly did not match to Kate, Gerry and the twins, so was assumed to be from Madeleine.

Yes, you're right, sorry, I appear to have got it all back to front

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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by aquila on 02.12.11 10:30

Not sure if this is the right place to post these questions but I can't seem to find the answers. Where were all three McCann children born and have their birth certificates ever been produced?
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Re: Madeleine's Control Sample

Post by aquila on 02.12.11 10:33

sorry, ignore previous post - found info on the Joanna Morais site.
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