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Catriona Baker

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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by Nina on 13.06.17 22:52

@Verdi wrote:
@roz wrote:Was Cat questioned by the PJ on Friday morning?  If so, what did Cat say in her first statement, and why has it been withheld?
01-Processo 86 to 103

KIDS CLUB STAFF interviewed 4 May 2007 by Inspector M.Pinho

*CATRIONA B.*

In our informal conversation with Catriona Trease Sisile B., also known as CAT, she stated:

1. That she arrived on March 21st 2007 and that she plans to return to the UK on November 7th 2007;
2. That she cared for Madeleine since Sunday April 29th 2007, daily until yesterday and that she always worked the same hours;
3. That yesterday Madeleine arrived at 9.10. It was her father, Gerry, who brought her;
4. That her mother, Kate, picked her up at 12.25;
5. That her mother, Kate, dropped her off at 14.50 and picked her up at 17.30;
6. That in the same room as Madeleine, there were 6 other children in the morning and 4 in the afternoon (including Madeleine);
7. That she did not see any strangers in the complex during that time or previous days.
8. That on the first day, Madeleine was shy. On the following days she was more calm and uninhibited. Yesterday she was joyful.
9. That she was never far from Madeleine, keeping her under visual supervision at all times when she was her responsibility, even asking her permission to go to the bathroom;
10. That, over the days, she noticed no change in the behaviour of the child's parents;
11. That she noticed no abnormal situation relating to this family;
12. That Madeleine had not told her about any person who had contacted [spoken to] her in recent days, nor [about] any possibly suspicious conversation.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KIDS-CLUB-STAFF.htm
Had she got the creche sheets in her hand when she was giving these times of arriving and departing as they are very specific?

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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by HiDeHo on 14.06.17 1:39

@Nina wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@roz wrote:Was Cat questioned by the PJ on Friday morning?  If so, what did Cat say in her first statement, and why has it been withheld?
01-Processo 86 to 103

KIDS CLUB STAFF interviewed 4 May 2007 by Inspector M.Pinho

*CATRIONA B.*

In our informal conversation with Catriona Trease Sisile B., also known as CAT, she stated:

1. That she arrived on March 21st 2007 and that she plans to return to the UK on November 7th 2007;
2. That she cared for Madeleine since Sunday April 29th 2007, daily until yesterday and that she always worked the same hours;
3. That yesterday Madeleine arrived at 9.10. It was her father, Gerry, who brought her;
4. That her mother, Kate, picked her up at 12.25;
5. That her mother, Kate, dropped her off at 14.50 and picked her up at 17.30;
6. That in the same room as Madeleine, there were 6 other children in the morning and 4 in the afternoon (including Madeleine);
7. That she did not see any strangers in the complex during that time or previous days.
8. That on the first day, Madeleine was shy. On the following days she was more calm and uninhibited. Yesterday she was joyful.
9. That she was never far from Madeleine, keeping her under visual supervision at all times when she was her responsibility, even asking her permission to go to the bathroom;
10. That, over the days, she noticed no change in the behaviour of the child's parents;
11. That she noticed no abnormal situation relating to this family;
12. That Madeleine had not told her about any person who had contacted [spoken to] her in recent days, nor [about] any possibly suspicious conversation.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KIDS-CLUB-STAFF.htm
Had she got the creche sheets in her hand when she was giving these times of arriving and departing as they are very specific?


I agree with questioning that issue Nina.

Originally when I was looking at the statements of those that last saw Maddie,  I discounted the cook as she claimed Maddie went to the creche next to the tapas and thats how she knew it was her.  She was likely mistaken as Maddie went to the other creche  approx 10 mins away.

For a while I stayed with Tuesday being the last day that anyone saw her after realising that other statements showed they were likely mistaken for various reasons...but I took the tennis instructor Georgina as a confirmed sighting, until I looked at her statement and realised she was likely reading from the tennis records.

She didn't claim she specifically remembered seeing Maddie, only that she was in a group that played Tuesday morning.  With Catriona attending also for that half hour to an hour its possible she only knew the names from the register and not from directly communicating with each of them.  Regardless, claiming she was one of a group does not confirm to me that she specifically remembers Maddie and could have been using the register.

Curiously, regarding the pick up from the creche Thursday lunchtime, as you point out the specific times are mentioned and it DID show that Kate signed her out at 12.25 and she was signed back in again at 2.45pm (if they left the pool area immediately after the last picture was taken and after taking the twins to their creche...) However, in her later statements she cannot remember who picked Maddie up and who dropped her off in the afternoon...

BUT THERE IS MORE...

Before lunch, Kate claimed to have been in the rec area with Fiona but left to go back to the apartment to prepare lunch before meeting up with Fiona to walk to the creche.

FIONA claims they went straight from the rec area and walked together.  No mention of Kate going to the apartment first.

However, Gerry adds a new angle to the pick up by claiming it was HIM that picked Maddie up from the creche at lunchtime because he remembers taking the short cut...

We are then faced with both of them contradicting who picked up the twins!

This was 'supposedly' the LAST DAY. Hours before Maddie 'disappeared.  The last time she was picked up from the creche and neither of them, as well as Fiona, can get it right!

Additionally, there are no creche records or Diagram of Events for the twins creche that morning.

PLEASE NOTE:  You may need to pause on some of the text to read in full.  Aplogies










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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by Verdi on 14.06.17 1:49

@Nina wrote:Had she got the creche sheets in her hand when she was giving these times of arriving and departing as they are very specific?
Either that or a script!

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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by roz on 14.06.17 6:25

Cat ‘spent most of Friday morning with the Portuguese police giving a statement’.
(Thanks for the response folks).
So it was actually an ‘informal conversation’ then that she had with the PJ on Friday 4th; (easy, relaxed, comfortable).
I would suggest it was not easy, relaxed or comfortable for Catriona that next morning, but it was made ‘easier’ for her - if she was able to take a copy of the crèche sheets with her – or indeed if she was able to make some notes from the crèche records beforehand at the Ocean club/Mini club (which seems to be the case).
That strongly suggests to me that Cat was not speaking from any real memory of that week, and especially not Thursday’s events.
Had the Mc Canns already ‘got to her’?
If so, the young girl was now heavily embroiled in a situation not of her making. 
No – that would not have been easy.
I think I would have become quite seriously ‘depressed’ afterwards.
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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by roz on 14.06.17 8:29

Cat B 4.5.07
8. That on the first day, Madeleine was shy. On the following days she was more calm and uninhibited. Yesterday she was joyful.
Yes – Madeleine had had her ’best day ever’.
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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by sar on 14.06.17 11:07

@roz wrote:Cat Baker 18.4.08 “I was lodged in the white and blue building, about 10 minutes on foot from the Mark Warner village and my place of work”.
 (Is it possible she lived on R. 25 de Abril – 13 minutes on foot to the Ocean / Miniclub? I ask this because I found a white and blue building there using Google maps –and it is very possible that the paint-work has not changed over the years (a lot of apartment blocks are peachy coloured). This would leave her living very near to Kelly’s Bar, R. Direita, Avenida dos Pescadores, (promenade), beach etc – possibly relevant, possibly not).
“I did not see Kate or Gerry that night. The next time I saw them was on Saturday at breakfast, as on Friday I spent most of the morning with the Portuguese police giving a statement. On Saturday I was next to the tapas Bar zone when Gerry and Kate appeared. They were still agitated and anxious for news”.
Was Cat questioned by the PJ on Friday morning?  If so, what did Cat say in her first statement, and why has it been withheld?
I find it strange to think that Cat did not go in to the apartment that Thursday night at all to see the parents, considering she was Madeleine’s nanny all week.
If I was Kate or Gerry, I would have been very anxious to talk with Madeleine’s nanny. I would have screamed and insisted that Emma Knight (or the helpful Amy Tierney) contact Cat immediately.
If I was Gerry or Kate, I would have been up at the crack of dawn the next morning in my urgent quest to talk with her (if I hadn’t already done so on Thursday night).
I would have been extremely anxious to ask Cat (if my child had just been abducted) if she had noticed anybody strange watching my daughter during that week (and loads of other questions).
Had Gerry and Kate attempted to do this? (There is nothing in the files to suggest this was the case).
We know they were out and about Friday morning early walking the streets, (DW and Paolo JF Neto, GNR)
but we do not know where they were.
Cat Baker Sunday 6.5.07 - Questioned, she responds that since she has been working with the little girl, it has seemed to her that the parents were attentive to their daughter given that they asked what Madeleine had done in the creche and that they even accompanied Madeleine a few times in certain outside activities.
(Not true - K and G stated that they had not accompanied Madeleine in any outside activities).
What was Cat Baker doing around the Tapas bar area on Saturday morning?
(Indeed, what were Kate and Gerry doing around the Tapas bar area on Saturday morning)?
Did she go there deliberately to talk with them? Had this been pre-arranged?
 
In my opinion, Cat’s ‘depression’ after the event, was extreme.
It signifies to me that she was hiding something.
Had she noticed signatures in the crèche records for a child that was not there?
Had she been ‘duped’ during the week into ignoring this?
Had she been compelled/pressurised after the ‘abduction’ by the anxious and agitated parents into saying nothing about this, and subsequently she told untruths, - finding it all exceedingly hard to deal with?
(I personally do not believe that Cat Baker knew ‘something bad’ had happened to Madeleine, or that she knew anything about the impending abduction).

+1 roz

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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by Verdi on 14.06.17 13:16

@roz wrote:I would suggest it was not easy, relaxed or comfortable for Catriona that next morning, but it was made ‘easier’ for her - if she was able to take a copy of the crèche sheets with her – or indeed if she was able to make some notes from the crèche records beforehand at the Ocean club/Mini club (which seems to be the case).
That strongly suggests to me that Cat was not speaking from any real memory of that week, and especially not Thursday’s events.
I wouldn't trust Catriona Baker further than David Payne could twizzle her but in fairness, the record of the informal interviews is not verbatim.  I think it most likely there was a set list of questions asked of all the childcare staff, with slight adjustments according to the function of specific staff and responses made in accordance with Mark Warners staffing guidelines - in short, they were briefed.  Perfectly normal procedure under the circumstances.

As for Catriona Baker's cat-astrophic mental state after the event, I venture to suggest that was yet another example of media hype.  She certainly didn't look too traumatized only a few months later when privately visiting the McCanns home in Rothley..



I think you need to look above and beyond the week 28thApril/3rd May 2007.

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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by roz on 15.06.17 12:07

At the risk of sounding completely crazy (this sad saga with all its complications has perhaps turned me that way) I will put forward something that has been periodically coming into my mind;
Is it possible that Ella O’B was told by her father Russell, something along the lines of – ‘The silly ladies here at the creche have got the names all mixed up - they might call you Maddie. If any of the silly nannies ask you - you just tell them that it is Maddie - just for this holiday. And shy timid Ella obeyed her father?
For this, you would have to take in to consideration the absolute serious situation that Russell knew Gerry and Kate were in; that Russell knew ‘something bad’ had happened Madeleine at the beginning of the week, and that an ‘abduction’ was now planned.
Is this why ‘Madeleine’ was described as shy, very shy, quiet etc., when the ‘real Madeleine’ was described as hyperactive, talkative, engaging etc?
Did Gerry and Russell deliberately confuse Cat B (and others - Kirsty M etc) in this way?
(You would also have to think that Cat did not scrutinize the crèche sheet names - that she merely filled in any blanks at the end of the day, and then ‘filed’ the sheets away under the desk – which is what I think happened anyway).
Is that possibly part of the reason why the normally calm Ella had ‘a sort of meltdown’ on Wednesday evening – as described by her mother Jane?
Have these questions perhaps been asked before, and if so, maybe I do not need a ‘white coat’ just yet?
I know we all here on this forum are trying to find some semblance of sense in all this, so I would welcome all opinions.
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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by Verdi on 15.06.17 13:42

@roz wrote:
I know we all here on this forum are trying to find some semblance of sense in all this, so I would welcome all opinions.
So whilst Ella was playing at being Madeleine - who was playing at being Ella?

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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by roz on 15.06.17 14:01

Two names were signed. Only one child was there.


It is possible that the crèche sheets were signed by the parents  - out of Cat’s view.
It is possible that Cat’s attention would be on those children that actually entered each day through the crèche door, and then took their wee seats.
It is possible (and I should have said this earlier) that Cat ‘filed’ the crèche sheets under the desk every evening without a glance at them.
It is possible that Cat only filled in the blanks on the sheets before her ‘informal conversation’ with the PJ on Friday morning 4th.
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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by roz on 15.06.17 14:45

I will add that I am a firm believer in things being done on ‘a needs to know’ basis.
In a situation as serious as this; the removal of a child’s body out of the immediate area, and planned abduction – then Gerry, with a complete understanding of the gravity of the situation, would had to have conducted his business on a strictly ‘needs to know’ basis.
In my opinion Cat B certainly did not need to know. 
Cat B (and others) would only be told what it suited Gerry to tell them (if anything).
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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by JRP on 15.06.17 15:38

@roz wrote:Two names were signed. Only one child was there.


It is possible that the crèche sheets were signed by the parents  - out of Cat’s view.
It is possible that Cat’s attention would be on those children that actually entered each day through the crèche door, and then took their wee seats.
It is possible (and I should have said this earlier) that Cat ‘filed’ the crèche sheets under the desk every evening without a glance at them.
It is possible that Cat only filled in the blanks on the sheets before her ‘informal conversation’ with the PJ on Friday morning 4th.

The parents should have signed their own children in and out, that's the whole point of having the sheets signed.

Cat Baker had 4 - 7 children in the Lobster Group, she would surely know who was who, and who was there and who wasn't.

Cat Baker signed two sheets herself as Cat Nanny. On one sheet she signed Ella out, and on another she signed out Alexander. Madeleines name was also on those sheets. I would guess she knew who was on the sheets and also who was in the room.

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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by roz on 15.06.17 16:25

Do you mean that you think Cat B knew that Gerry and Kate were falsely signing the crèche sheets for a child that was not there?
If Cat questioned them at all about it (and I would wonder would 20 year old Cat have courage enough to do that), I would think it highly possible that Gerry fobbed her off with some sorry tales of rows between him and Kate, mix-ups between them etc.
I do not believe that he would have told her anything else.
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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by Verdi on 15.06.17 16:27

@roz wrote:Two names were signed. Only one child was there.
So where was Ella all the time this dupery was going on?  I see a lot of 'what ifs' emerging here in an attempt to fit your theorizing.

As for your subsequent 'need to know' theory, Gerry McCann or whoever else, must have been extremely liberal with sharing the inner most secret.  If - and that's a very big if - Madeleine McCann genuinely disappeared for whatever reason at any time during that fateful week and the detail was only known to Gerry McCann and/or his wife, wouldn't it have been simpler for the perpetrator/s to carryout an abduction scenario without help?

The only reason I can think why that didn't happen would be because the rest of the group were also involved in some way.  You yourself are implicating another member of the group by way of passing off their child as Madeleine, do you truly believe a father would put his life on the line for the sake of a friend if he wasn't involved?

I don't.

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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by roz on 15.06.17 16:46

Verdi, I have not used ‘a lot of what ifs’.
And I did say that I believe Gerry would have had to do his business on a strictly ‘needs to know’ basis.
I do think that Russell O’B was one of those who did know (which is why I posed those questions).
I do not believe that Cat Baker knew.
Do you remember that game show – Catchprase?
‘Say what you see’.
I think that is what we are all trying to do here.

I think all of us on this forum should be encouraged to 'say what we see'.
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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by JRP on 15.06.17 17:44

@roz wrote:Do you mean that you think Cat B knew that Gerry and Kate were falsely signing the crèche sheets for a child that was not there?
If Cat questioned them at all about it (and I would wonder would 20 year old Cat have courage enough to do that), I would think it highly possible that Gerry fobbed her off with some sorry tales of rows between him and Kate, mix-ups between them etc.
I do not believe that he would have told her anything else.

I don't know who filled in the creche sheets, how accurate they are, where they were kept, or how often they were looked at. 
But Cat Baker signed one or two of the creche sheets, and as the group numbered between 4 and 7 kids I think she knew who was on the list and who was in the room.

I have no idea what Cat Baker's demeanour is/was, I would imagine the role of Holiday Nanny would require an outgoing confident, fun loving type of person.

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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by Phoebe on 15.06.17 18:29

@Verdi  "The only reason I can think why that didn't happen would be because the rest of the group were also involved in some way.  You yourself are implicating another member of the group by way of passing off their child as Madeleine, do you truly believe a father would put his life on the line for the sake of a friend if he wasn't involved?"


This goes to the heart of the matter. As it's hard to accept that any member of the Tapas 7 would "put his life on the line for the sake of a friend" so too is it hard to believe that a nanny would put HER "life on the line for the sake of a friend" (even assuming she might have known the McCanns in any way) by being party to such fraud. If friendship is not the motive for such a risk what on earth could be? How could a nanny be otherwise involved in what went on?
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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by polyenne on 15.06.17 18:40

Er money. Lots of it.........
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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by Phoebe on 15.06.17 20:28

@polyenne wrote:Er money. Lots of it.........
Possibly, but when she was first questioned she had no way of knowing how lucrative the fund might be and if the McCanns went down there would be no pay-off. Any of the other nannies could have blown the whistle on her. It would only take one to screw up or crack during police interviews and she would have been in serious trouble. It was an enormous risk to take. Perhaps that's why she was so "badly affected" afterwards. The period when the press were reporting negatively for the McCanns and when they were declared arguido must have been very worrying for her.
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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by polyenne on 15.06.17 20:47

Phoebe, agreed.

I believe, initially she played no part. However, just maybe she did "complete" the crèche records either at the end of everyday or possibly (to save her skin) post "abduction" (not sure when the PJ requested/obtained those records).

Having done so, she unwittingly became an accessory after the event. And when she was invited to Chez McCann, and accepted, she became part of Team McCann. In a similar way, so did the Smiths.

You see how clever TM is, they could be construed to be guilty by association IMO
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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by JRP on 15.06.17 20:56

She could have said, the parents signed the children in and out, which was after all MW company policy. She can't stop parents signing a sheet and not leaving their child. It must happen occasionally.
Being caught in charge of incoherent creche sheets isn't an illegal activity.

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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by Phoebe on 15.06.17 22:11

@JRP wrote:She could have said, the parents signed the children in and out, which was after all MW company policy. She can't stop parents signing a sheet and not leaving their child. It must happen occasionally.
Being caught in charge of incoherent creche sheets isn't an illegal activity.
Remember in addition to her statements there is a day-to-day action plan which the P.J. drew up with Cat. These outline who dropped off and collected the McCann children from creche for each session and each one is signed off on as an accurate account by Cat Baker. These become more then mere creche records and are sworn testimony. In this case she would be giving false testimony which is an offence.
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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by Verdi on 15.06.17 22:15

@roz wrote:
Do you remember that game show – Catchprase?
‘Say what you see’.
I think that is what we are all trying to do here.

I think all of us on this forum should be encouraged to 'say what we see'.
Catchphrase is a game show, is that what you are encouraging?  Who's on the next list of suspects in the know - Mr Chips?



Mind you, I can see a vague resemblance to one of ex-DCI Andy Redwoods e-fits big grin .

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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by Verdi on 16.06.17 1:49

@roz wrote:Verdi, I have not used ‘a lot of what ifs’.
Apologies, maybe I should have been more precise and said 'is it possibles' rather than 'a lot of what ifs'.  Amounts to the same thing.

The deeper you dig the more your theory is losing strength - as they say, when you're in a hole stop digging!  Your entire theory is built on the premise that either Madeleine was substituted by another child and/or Madeleine was mistaken for another child.  There has to come a time when you realise that your building has no foundation.

Even the witness at the Millenium restaurant reception desk is unconvincing.  Her purpose was to check between guests that had breakfast included in their package and those who had to pay for their meal - this would involve checking off names on a list.  How could the McCann family be confused with another family also listed as entitled to breakfast?  If Ms witness was doing her job, she would know there were two families listed i.e. McCann and O'Brien and know whether one or two were breakfasting on any one day.  Not that the McCanns took advantage of the inclusive breakfast but that makes my point even more apparent.  Why or how could she possibly think that the O'Brien child was the McCann child when checking off the name O'Brien on the list - what about the adult faction?  Was O'Brien a McCann clone or was McCann an O'Brien clone?

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Re: Catriona Baker

Post by Verdi on 16.06.17 2:15

@Phoebe wrote:
@JRP wrote:She could have said, the parents signed the children in and out, which was after all MW company policy. She can't stop parents signing a sheet and not leaving their child. It must happen occasionally.
Being caught in charge of incoherent creche sheets isn't an illegal activity.
Remember in addition to her statements there is a day-to-day action plan which the P.J. drew up with Cat. These outline who dropped off and collected the McCann children from creche for each session and each one is signed off on as an accurate account by Cat Baker. These become more then mere creche records and are sworn testimony. In this case she would be giving false testimony which is an offence.
Sorry - what is this?

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Blood and cadaver alerts
dismissed by UK Government


Retired DCI Gonçalo Amaral: "The English can always present the conclusions to which they themselves arrived in 2007. Because they know, they have the evidence of what happened - they don't need to investigate anything. All this is now a mere 'show off'."

Retired murder DCI Colin Sutton: "I would also like to make the point that Operation Grange was so restricted from the start as to be destined to fail."

Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley made public on national TV that Operation Grange is a complete fraud.

Ex-DCI Andy Redwood had a "revelation moment" on BBC's Crimewatch on 14th October 2013 when he announced that Operation Grange had eliminated the Tanner sighting - which opened up the 'window of opportunity', in accordance with their remit, to allow the fake abduction to happen.

Despite "irrelevant behaviour" from blood and cadaver dogs in the McCann's apartment, on Kate McCann's clothes, and in the car they hired three weeks after Maddie disappeared, Ex-Chief Inspector, Ian Horrocks, said: "The thought that Kate and Gerry McCann had anything to do with the death of their daughter is frankly preposterous."

Gerry McCann called for example to be made of 'trolls'. SKY News reporter Martin Brunt doorstepped Brenda Leyland on 2 October 2014. She was then found dead in a Leicester hotel room. Brenda paid the price. She paid with her life.

Ex-Deputy Chief Constable, Jim Gamble QPM, congratulated SKY reporter, Martin Brunt, on twitter for doorstepping Brenda Leyland on behalf of Gerry McCann.

Prime Minister Theresa May introduces Prime Suspect Kate McCann to Royalty: The Duchess of Gloucester.

Good Cop Down: The reality of being a police whistleblower
https://goodcopdown.wordpress.com/