Re: Catriona Baker

by roz on Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:49 pm

Verdi – I do not take kindly to you mocking my efforts; that cartoon man, and laughing face symbol suggests just that.
I would expect more grown-up behaviour from a Moderator/Researcher.
We are all here to get justice for Madeleine Mc Cann.
I think instead of being scoffed or derided, we should all be encouraged to ‘say what you see’.

by polyenne on Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:08 pm

Verdi, your statement above gives truck to the premise that the Millennium receptionist/greeter identified the McCanns on various weekdays. Regardless of whether they might or might not have been mistaken for the O'Bs, they weren't there so why such a long explanation......it's a moot point anyway !!

I have to side with Roz, whilst respecting your position and undoubted knowledge of the subject, you do sometimes come across as belittling, arrogant and a little frustrated. Some people haven't been on this forum as long as you, have your knowledge or your greater understanding of the wider subject but we are all trying to make sense of a disjointed set of circumstances and obvious obfuscation of accounts.

I agree, it IS frustrating but just maybe, one persons scatterbrained eureka moment or a question that's not been posed before, is maybe just what is required to insert a link into the chain of events and get the snowball rolling again. You must agree, after 10 years, a lot of things have been done to death and we're struggling to find those key pieces of the jigsaw.

Every little helps !!

by Phoebe on Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:06 pm

@Verdi wrote:
@Phoebe wrote:
@JRP wrote:She could have said, the parents signed the children in and out, which was after all MW company policy. She can't stop parents signing a sheet and not leaving their child. It must happen occasionally.
Being caught in charge of incoherent creche sheets isn't an illegal activity.
Remember in addition to her statements there is a day-to-day action plan which the P.J. drew up with Cat. These outline who dropped off and collected the McCann children from creche for each session and each one is signed off on as an accurate account by Cat Baker. These become more then mere creche records and are sworn testimony. In this case she would be giving false testimony which is an offence.
Sorry - what is this?

In a bit of a rush today so can't spend time to find it again right now but I already commented on it at length quite recently in a thread on the nannies. In the files after the nanny statements is an action plan with diagrams. Each diagram draws a line from the boxes representing Kate and Gerry to the various creches and basically maps out their dropping off of the kids each day complete with times. Immediately above this is a day-to-day account of Madeleine's creche attendance as told by Cat. Baker and each day is signed by her as an accurate account. Heading off for weekend but I will re-post these on my return. In the meantime as I say I already posted re the matter on another thread (so maybe someone can find it) and named the diagrams/appendixes as they appear in the files.

by Phoebe on Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:11 pm

[url=http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CRECHE/Diagrama-de-Entradas-e-Saidas-d- Infantario/OutrosApensos12Anexo59.jpg]

[/url]

Diagram of Events 59

by Phoebe on Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:14 pm

Here is a rushed example
Kids Club

ROUTINE yesterday she received Madeleine at 09.10, Madeleine was handed over by her father. She looked after Madeleine from Sunday 29-04-2007 daily and until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88
01-05-2007 â€“ 9.10.00

Each day is done thus.

by polyenne on Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:02 am

Phoebe, thank you for directing me to this information.

Having reviewed, these are my observations :

1.   except for 29/4, GM always signs Madeleine in in the morning

2.   except for 29/4, KM always collects Madeleine in the afternoon (1/5 has no collection time ?)

2.   whenever KM signs for Madeleine, it is always lower case. With GM it is capitals

3.   KM generally denotes the minutes in the same size as the hour, GM in smaller, "lifted" case

4.   on the afternoon of 30/4, KM signs Madeleine out at 17.30 and appears to sign KMMccann (with 2 Ms)

5.   what the Dickens happens on 2/5 ??
      a) GM signs Madeleine in at 9.20. Cat signs her out at 12.30
      b) GM also signs in Twins at 9.10 (hard to discern)
      c) KM signs Madeleine back in at 14.45 (but note upper minutes) and out at 17.30 signing KMHealy ???!!!
      d) KM also signs Twins back at 14.40. GM collects at 17.20

by JRP on Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:09 am

@polyenne wrote:Phoebe, thank you for directing me to this information.

Having reviewed, these are my observations :

1.   except for 29/4, GM always signs Madeleine in in the morning

2.   except for 29/4, KM always collects Madeleine in the afternoon (1/5 has no collection time ?)

2.   whenever KM signs for Madeleine, it is always lower case. With GM it is capitals

3.   KM generally denotes the minutes in the same size as the hour, GM in smaller, "lifted" case

4.   on the afternoon of 30/4, KM signs Madeleine out at 17.30 and appears to sign KMMccann (with 2 Ms)

5.   what the Dickens happens on 2/5 ??
      a) GM signs Madeleine in at 9.20. Cat signs her out at 12.30
      b) GM also signs in Twins at 9.10 (hard to discern)
      c) KM signs Madeleine back in at 14.45 (but note upper minutes) and out at 17.30 signing KMHealy ???!!!
      d) KM also signs Twins back at 14.40. GM collects at 17.20

Kate McCann stated that she became Kate McCann only after Madeleine went "~~missing~~" as that is how the news journos described her. She says prior to that, she used her maiden name Kate Healy, so why is the creche sheet signed McCann?

by polyenne on Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:29 am

Indeed JRP.

Just as GM may have been signing in "another blond girl", perhaps it wasn't KM that went to collect "her" and assumed that the "fake KM" should sign KMcCann.

Perhaps for some reasons, the "fake KM" couldn't make the PM collection of the "other blond girl" on 2 May and so the real KM had to go, thus inadvertently signing correctly as KMHealy.

My head hurts !!!

by JRP on Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:04 am

@polyenne wrote:Indeed JRP.

Just as GM may have been signing in "another blond girl", perhaps it wasn't KM that went to collect "her" and assumed that the "fake KM" should sign KMcCann.

Perhaps for some reasons, the "fake KM" couldn't make the PM collection of the "other blond girl" on 2 May and so the real KM had to go, thus inadvertently signing correctly as KMHealy.

My head hurts !!!

Did Nanny know Kate used her maiden name, just a thought.

by **Verdi** on Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:43 am

@Phoebe wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@Phoebe wrote:
@JRP wrote:She could have said, the parents signed the children in and out, which was after all MW company policy. She can't stop parents signing a sheet and not leaving their child. It must happen occasionally.
Being caught in charge of incoherent creche sheets isn't an illegal activity.
Remember in addition to her statements there is a day-to-day action plan which the P.J. drew up with Cat. These outline who dropped off and collected the McCann children from creche for each session and each one is signed off on as an accurate account by Cat Baker. These become more then mere creche records and are sworn testimony. In this case she would be giving false testimony which is an offence.
Sorry - what is this?
In a bit of a rush today so can't spend time to find it again right now but I already commented on it at length quite recently in a thread on the nannies. In the files after the nanny statements is an action plan with diagrams. Each diagram draws a line from the boxes representing Kate and Gerry to the various creches and basically maps out their dropping off of the kids each day complete with times. Immediately above this is a day-to-day account of Madeleine's creche attendance as told by Cat. Baker and each day is signed by her as an accurate account. Heading off for weekend but I will re-post these on my return. In the meantime as I say I already posted re the matter on another thread (so maybe someone can find it) and named the diagrams/appendixes as they appear in the files.

Ah I'm with you - it was the wording "there is a day-to-day action plan which the P.J. drew up with Cat" that confused me.

Surely this is but a summary of the Lobster Club records rather than an action plan which the PJ drew up with Cat?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm#58

Where does the "each day is signed by her [Catriona Baker] as an accurate account" feature?

by **Verdi** on Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:57 am

Catriona Baker witness statement - 6th May 2007

When asked she states that she knows the McCann family since last Sunday, 29th April, 2007, when they enrolled their daughter in the “Minis” service. She replies that since that date and until Thursday, the 03rd of May, 2007, she was with Madeleine every day, but is unable to specify if she was present on the Sunday morning.

Questioned, she responds that since she has been working with the little girl, it has seemed to her that the parents were attentive to their daughter given that they asked what Madeleine had done in the creche and that they even accompanied Madeleine a few times in certain outside activities. Concerning the little girl, she states that she was an active and sociable child. Only on the first day was she more reticent with the group.

The informant reports that during the time that Madeleine was entrusted to her care, at no time did it seem to her that the little girl was sad or unhappy, and she never made any comment about being cross, sad or discontent about anything. She also reports that she was an obedient child who never wandered from the group and who never spoke to strangers.

When asked, the informant responds that it was always the parents who brought Madeleine and fetched her from the "Mini Club."

Catriona Baker's rogatory interview - 18th April 2008

I got to know Gerry and Kate McCann on the Sunday morning, 29.04.2007, in the Minis Club. They brought the children and as it was their first day of holidays the normal procedure was that they were allocated a childcare worker. I had previously written the children's bracelets which included their name, allergies and relevant information. I stayed with Madeleine, 3 years old, in my group (Minis Club that week) together with E***, daughter of Jane Tanner. Either Kate or Gerry would accompany Madeleine every day in the morning and would return at lunch hour to take her back. I met Gerry more often as he would drop Madeleine off with greater frequency than Kate. I also remember that Kate was present for High Tea accompanied by the twins between 5H and 5H30 in the afternoon.

Most of the time in which I saw the family together, the children would be eating. The twins appeared tired at lunch, after a long day and also perhaps due to the heat, but I never became preoccupied by the children of by the comportment of the McCanns.
----------

Mistaken identity? I don't think so!

by polyenne on Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:33 pm

If it isn't a case of mistaken identity then, on the basis that Cat's testimony is therefore correct, Madeleine was alive and well up to and including Thursday 3 May.

I don't think so !

by Pandora1958 on Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:58 pm

Immediately noticed She contradicts herself- first interview she says she is unable to specify if she was present on Sunday am then A YEAR later goes into great detail about meeting them that day?
I only became aware of the controversy around this case earlier this year when I saw the video with the cadaver dogs by chance - I was so shocked! Since then have followed this forum and read everything I can and it's SUCH a tangled web.

by **Verdi** on Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:38 pm

@Pandora1958 wrote:Immediately noticed She contradicts herself- first interview she says she is unable to specify if she was present on Sunday am then A YEAR later goes into great detail about meeting them that day?
I only became aware of the controversy around this case earlier this year when I saw the video with the cadaver dogs by chance - I was so shocked! Since then have followed this forum and read everything I can and it's SUCH a tangled web.

It's quite uncanny how all the rogatory interviewees recollections improved so dramatically after a year - and a meeting at the Rothley Court hotel in November 2007 winkwink

.

by Phoebe on Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:43 am

@Verdi. Apologies for delay in replying. The day-to day plan I mentioned is almost formulaic stating "She" (meaning Cat) "received Madeleine" from either parent at 9.10am daily and "Handed her over" to either parent at five thirty each day without exception. As this is different to the creche records and her other statement to the P.J. and rogatory statement I assumed she must have been involved in the drawing up of this plan. In her other statements the times Madeleine was dropped in the mornings and collected for lunch and in the evenings varies but according to this action plan she is always dropped off at 9.10 and collected at 5.30. I presumed they got this information from Cat?

by **Verdi** on Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:05 am

@Phoebe wrote:@Verdi. Apologies for delay in replying. The day-to day plan I mentioned is almost formulaic stating "She" (meaning Cat) "received Madeleine" from either parent at 9.10am daily and "Handed her over" to either parent at five thirty each day without exception. As this is different to the creche records and her other statement to the P.J. and rogatory statement I assumed she must have been involved in the drawing up of this plan. In her other statements the times Madeleine was dropped in the mornings and collected for lunch and in the evenings varies but according to this action plan she is always dropped off at 9.10 and collected at 5.30. I presumed they got this information from Cat?

Nah - there's something very wrong with the PJ's diagrams of the creche arrival and departure times, not helped by the fact I don't understand the Portuguese language. All I can deduce is, with the exception of an amendment to allow for the beach trip (I think), the timings are, as you say, identical i.e morning 9:20 am - 12:25 pm and afternoon 2:50 pm - 5:30 pm (Lobster Club). This is just impossible, there is no way anyone would drop off or collect their child/ren at the exact same time every day.

The diagrams appear to be for Madeleine's Lobster Club, the twins Jellyfish Club and the parents tennis court timings. It doesn't add up.

I can't begin to imagine what the diagrams signify in real terms. Clearly they don't accord with the creche register so I doubt very much Catriona Baker played any part in the drafting of the PJ's diagrams. No doubt the PJ had a valid reason but I'm totally at a loss to understand what.

by Phoebe on Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:17 am

@Verdi wrote:
@Phoebe wrote:@Verdi. Apologies for delay in replying. The day-to day plan I mentioned is almost formulaic stating "She" (meaning Cat) "received Madeleine" from either parent at 9.10am daily and "Handed her over" to either parent at five thirty each day without exception. As this is different to the creche records and her other statement to the P.J. and rogatory statement I assumed she must have been involved in the drawing up of this plan. In her other statements the times Madeleine was dropped in the mornings and collected for lunch and in the evenings varies but according to this action plan she is always dropped off at 9.10 and collected at 5.30. I presumed they got this information from Cat?
Nah - there's something very wrong with the PJ's diagrams of the creche arrival and departure times, not helped by the fact I don't understand the Portuguese language. All I can deduce is, with the exception of an amendment to allow for the beach trip (I think), the timings are, as you say, identical i.e morning 9:20 am - 12:25 pm and afternoon 2:50 pm - 5:30 pm (Lobster Club). This is just impossible, there is no way anyone would drop off or collect their child/ren at the exact same time every day.

The diagrams appear to be for Madeleine's Lobster Club, the twins Jellyfish Club and the parents tennis court timings. It doesn't add up.

I can't begin to imagine what the diagrams signify in real terms. Clearly they don't accord with the creche register so I doubt very much Catriona Baker played any part in the drafting of the PJ's diagrams. No doubt the PJ had a valid reason but I'm totally at a loss to understand what.

I'm beginning to wonder if these were drawn up based on information given by Kate and Gerry? Someone must have given this information to the P.J. as the diagrams show more than merely when each creche session started and finished. They state WHO, allegedly, dropped and collected Madeleine from each creche session and only Kate, Gerry or Cat could possibly have had that information. In fact these claims as to who was dropping off/collecting are later shown to be incorrect according to the creche log. It's interesting that not only are these times wrong if the creche log is correct but that the bold claim that "She looked after Madeleine daily from Sunday til yesterday ALWAYS FOR THE SAME HOURS" is totally wrong. Could this have been the first account given of the creche routine before it was realized that there would be further evidence requested in the form of the creche daily logs? Perhaps they hoped that the P.J. wouldn't look too closely at her creche attendance as the drama "only began" with the Thurs night "abduction" so everything before that would be ignored with focus on the apartment and the "break in"?

by **Verdi** on Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:57 am

The diagrams appear to me to be based entirely on Catriona Baker's first informal statement taken on Friday 4th May 2007..

In our informal conversation with Catriona Trease Sisile B., also known as CAT, she stated:

1. That she arrived on March 21st 2007 and that she plans to return to the UK on November 7th 2007;
2. That she cared for Madeleine since Sunday April 29th 2007, daily until yesterday and that she always worked the same hours;
3. That yesterday Madeleine arrived at 9.10. It was her father, Gerry, who brought her;
4. That her mother, Kate, picked her up at 12.25;
5. That her mother, Kate, dropped her off at 14.50 and picked her up at 17.30;
6. That in the same room as Madeleine, there were 6 other children in the morning and 4 in the afternoon (including Madeleine);
7. That she did not see any strangers in the complex during that time or previous days.
8. That on the first day, Madeleine was shy. On the following days she was more calm and uninhibited. Yesterday she was joyful.
9. That she was never far from Madeleine, keeping her under visual supervision at all times when she was her responsibility, even asking her permission to go to the bathroom;
10. That, over the days, she noticed no change in the behaviour of the child's parents;
11. That she noticed no abnormal situation relating to this family;
12. That Madeleine had not told her about any person who had contacted [spoken to] her in recent days, nor [about] any possibly suspicious conversation.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KIDS-CLUB-STAFF.htm

The timing coincides exactly with the PJ's diagrams but Catriona Baker only refers to the times of drop off and collection on Thursday 3rd May.

Still I've no idea why the PJ used the same timing across the whole week, unless the timing wasn't important for the exercise and it was just a base to illustrate the McCanns general pattern of movement throughout the week.

The more I look at it, the less I'm inclined to think there is anything significant to be deduced from the PJ's diagrams. The creche records however are a different matter altogether.

Why did the parents McCann name Catriona Baker as a key witness to be re-interviewed by the rogatory process the following year? Ostensibly, Madeleine wasn't in her charge when she disappeared so how could she be considered a key witness? A brief meet a couple of times a day over a period of five days, can hardly be construed as material for a character witness.

Could this be a clue..

Mark Harrison's report - 23rd July 2007 [snipped]

Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

by Phoebe on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:22 pm

@ Verdi. I'm still fascinated (timings aside) about where they got the information (contradicted by the log) re. who dropped off Madeleine each day in the mornings/after lunch and collected her for lunch and in the evenings. I think it may have come from this informal interview. Cat also lies here (surprise surprise) when she says Madeleine was kept under her visual supervision at all times. Kirsty Maryan says she was minding her for half an hour as her own nanny (strangely, identified as Emma W) was gone to see to the preparation of Tapas high tea. My own gut feeling is that Cat. was not where she said she was during creche sessions and that the nannies had a habit of skiving off and getting others to cover for them. I've seen it happen before. IMO Cat was compromised and only too eager to hitch her wagon to the McCanns who were happy, in turn, to use her. The perfect symbiotic relationship.

by sar on Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:37 pm

@Phoebe wrote:@ Verdi. I'm still fascinated (timings aside) about where they got the information (contradicted by the log) re. who dropped off Madeleine each day in the mornings/after lunch and collected her for lunch and in the evenings. I think it may have come from this informal interview. Cat also lies here (surprise surprise) when she says Madeleine was kept under her visual supervision at all times. Kirsty Maryan says she was minding her for half an hour as her own nanny (strangely, identified as Emma W) was gone to see to the preparation of Tapas high tea. My own gut feeling is that Cat. was not where she said she was during creche sessions and that the nannies had a habit of skiving off and getting others to cover for them. I've seen it happen before. IMO Cat was compromised and only too eager to hitch her wagon to the McCanns who were happy, in turn, to use her. The perfect symbiotic relationship.

think this could be more likely

by polyenne on Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:44 pm

I'm not sure why the "regularity" of the 9.10am initial drop-off and 5.30pm final pick-up was ever mentioned.

If one looks here : http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm scroll down and view each of the logged pages for both Madeleine and the Twins (gemeos in Portuguese).

The logs provide the alleged timings though the PJ diagrams do a reasonable job of extrapolating to show a thick line for Gerry and a thinner line for Kate running through each day to detail who did what & when.