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Sunday April 29th - the first full day

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by tigger on 11.11.11 11:21

Stella, I agree, the testimony of the cleaner tells us there were three children.

They all had the same type of trainers on. This surprises me, because I've never seen any photograph of one of the children with that footwear. The only photograph where presumably they are present, is in the playground one.

I wonder why these trainers (pink, pink lights!) weren't mentioned by Kate. She seems to have mentioned nearly all the rest of Maddie's wardrobe.

The trainers should have provided DNA and certainly lots of scent for the GNR dogs. But only sandals were offered. Is that why we've never heard about the trainers?

Considering that the cleaning lady must have seen the photographs of Maddie which were published shortly before her statement, we can only assume that she saw three children and the parents, going upstairs on Sunday morning. That she assumed one of these children was Maddie. I don't think she was asked if the child resembled the photograph at all.

This lunchtime gathering would surely have been arranged the previous evening?

Another thought: if people saw the McCanns with the twins and another child, one would assume that was their elder daughter?

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 11.11.11 11:30

I agree Tigger and I can't help but think if you wanted to keep children's minds off of something, you would buy them something to keep them distracted.

Were the twins wearing them on the bus footage?, I doubt it somehow, as we do not see anything flashing.

Then we are back to why Madeleine was wearing strappy sandals for tennis, when she had trainers?
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 11.11.11 11:47

Just thought about something else. If Kate left with a plate in her hands, it means she only had one hand free. I am wondering if the twins were able to climb the stairs on their own? I know Gerry was following on behind after locking the front door, but there must have been a few minutes where the twins could have been trying to climb the stairs on their own and Kate was only able to hold onto one of them, holding that plate.

I think they were returning the Payne's plates back to them. It is the only reason near empty plates would be seen out in public. Which might mean the McCann's started off in 5H, then took two plates of food back to 5a (to be seen), then returned empty plates back to 5H. You know when cleaners are around, you can hear them. So it would be very easy to be seen by them, if you needed to.
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Tony Bennett on 11.11.11 12:03

Replies in blue

Stella in response to Tony Bennett wrote:In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, and bearing in mind that the cleaner seeing the group was by chance, this would tend to suggest all the following:

1) that the account of the Tapas 9 that they would tend to all have lunch in David and Fiona Payne's apartment is correct (with the McCanns contributing some food to the occasion, perhaps bought by them at Baptista earlier that morning)

I have been thinking about this for a long time now and to me it still doesn't add up. If the McCann children had been eating sandwiches in 5a, why would Kate allow them to be moved from one apartment on one floor, to another apartment on another floor, 'before' they had finished eating? If the others wanted the McCanns to join them for lunch (with or without their own food), why didn't they join them 'before' starting to eat?

REPLY: Where do we get the information from that they had already been eating sandwiches? They all had plates, they had bread, it was 1.15pm. The most natural explanation is that they were taking food up to the Paynes to eat there.

2) that the McCanns were in fact living in Apartment 5A (at least on the Sunday)

3) that Madeleine was alive on Sunday

The cleaner assumed it was Madeleine, based on the fact that she saw 3 children leaving that apartment. But could she have identified MM? She only remembers a skirt and flashing shoes, so it would seem she did not get a look at her face?

REPLY: I accept there's no proof it was Madeleine. Equally, in the absence of evidence or indicatons to the contrary, the first assumption would be that this is Madeleine.

4) that she owned and wore a pair of shoes with flashing lights.

Those types of shoes were very popular at that time. In fact you can get some now by Skechers with flashing lights on your toes. Most children have a pair of these and if some in a group of children have them, they all want them.

I keep thinking about these questions. Why was near empty plates being taken up to 5H?

REPLY: The McCanns' contribution was bread? - the rest would be provided by the others?

Were they being 'returned' to the rightful apartment? If so, could someone have taken a plate full of sandwiches 'down' to 5A for some reason?

REPLY: Unlikely IMO. If they didn't finish their sandwiches, they would have kept them for later, the parents would have finished them off, or they would have been thrown away. I am not sure where the idea they had already eaten sandwiches comes from - or is this in fact another flat contradiction?

Could another little girl, someone that the twins knew well have been with them, like Tanner's girl for instance and the cleaner thought it was Madeleine?

REPLY: It's most certainly a possibility.

I'm really not keen on taking anything for granted with this one. Yes, it could have been Madeleine, but we don't know for sure.[/quote]

@tigger wrote:Stella, I agree, the testimony of the cleaner tells us there were three children.

They all had the same type of trainers on. This surprises me, because I've never seen any photograph of one of the children with that footwear. The only photograph where presumably they are present, is in the playground one.

I wonder why these trainers (pink, pink lights!) weren't mentioned by Kate. She seems to have mentioned nearly all the rest of Maddie's wardrobe.

REPLY: This is a very pertinent observation.

The trainers should have provided DNA and certainly lots of scent for the GNR dogs. But only sandals were offered. Is that why we've never heard about the trainers?

REPLY: That's another good observation but would tend IMO to point towards that being Madeleine that day (Sunday) who was seen by the cleaner, wearing those trainers, and the McCanns then disposing of the trainers. It is not impossible that Madeleine was wearing those trainers when she died.

Considering that the cleaning lady must have seen the photographs of Maddie which were published shortly before her statement, we can only assume that she saw three children and the parents, going upstairs on Sunday morning. That she assumed one of these children was Maddie. I don't think she was asked if the child resembled the photograph at all.

This lunchtime gathering would surely have been arranged the previous evening?

Another thought: if people saw the McCanns with the twins and another child, one would assume that was their elder daughter?
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Tony Bennett on 11.11.11 12:14

Stella wrote:Just thought about something else. If Kate left with a plate in her hands, it means she only had one hand free. I am wondering if the twins were able to climb the stairs on their own?

REPLY: The twins were nearly 2 years and 3 months at this time. They would be able to walk up and down stairs, probably one hand holding on to a railing or the wall.

I know Gerry was following on behind after locking the front door, but there must have been a few minutes where the twins could have been trying to climb the stairs on their own and Kate was only able to hold onto one of them, holding that plate.

I think they were returning the Payne's plates back to them.

REPLY: With bits of unfinished bread?

It is the only reason near empty plates would be seen out in public. Which might mean the McCann's started off in 5H, then took two plates of food back to 5a (to be seen), then returned empty plates back to 5H. You know when cleaners are around, you can hear them. So it would be very easy to be seen by them, if you needed to.

REPLY: That line of argument would suggest that the McCanns were keen to be seen by others - who would see the twins and another child and assume that child was Madeleine. There is however little or no evidence of such a pattern of behaviour being repeated through the rest of the week.
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 11.11.11 12:30

@Tony Bennett wrote:Replies in blue

REPLY: Where do we get the information from that they had already been eating sandwiches? They all had plates, they had bread, it was 1.15pm. The most natural explanation is that they were taking food up to the Paynes to eat there.

The cleaner said, "Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing 'a' piece of bread"

I took this to mean that all that was left was 'one' piece of bread. Children of that age notoriously pick at their food. They seperate things that are joined together, biscuits, sandwiches etc. and eat the middles first. The cleaner did not describe a full sandwich, neither did she refer to many slices of bread to make sandwiches. She didn't make reference to what Kate had on her plate either, which does not suggest a pile of bread enough to feed 5 people. They could have taken a wrapped loaf up with them if that was there contribution. They could have taken a carrier bag of different food up with them, but they didn't. It could be 5H was short of plates and they were taking up their own, but again it does not account for what looks like one slice of bread, or what was left of it, on Madeleine's plate and whatever was on Kate's plate. This just doesn't sit right. Don't forget this was the first lunch, so Dianne Webster should have bought enough food to feed an army in the Baptista supermarket that day. Running out on day 2 or 3 was likely to happen, not day one, so I just don't get it.

The cleaner said, "She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying 'a' plate"

Just seen this bit again, so there we have it, it looks like an empty plate is what Kate actually had.

What we seem to be left with is 5 people heading towards another apartment, with only two plates and one slice of bread. Am I the only one that thinks that a little odd !!!
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 11.11.11 12:40

@Tony Bennett wrote:REPLY: That line of argument would suggest that the McCanns were keen to be seen by others - who would see the twins and another child and assume that child was Madeleine. There is however little or no evidence of such a pattern of behaviour being repeated through the rest of the week.
Other than going to the creche every day!!! and requesting an engineer to fix the blind (were 3 children present?). Requesting assistance on how to work the washing machine (again was there 3 children present?). If we also include the day the cleaner entered their apartment to find them still there, that is 4 seperate occasions to connect them to that apartment and 3 possible occasions for all 3 children to be seen there.
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Snacking?

Post by uppatoffee on 11.11.11 13:15

I would think that by 1.15 that the kids were probably very hungry. If they hadn't already had their lunch by then then the pieces of bread were snacks for them while they made their way up to the Payne's apartment.
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 11.11.11 13:19

Madeleine was collected from creche on the 29th at 12.15. The am creche sheet for the twins on the 29th is missing.

In the afternoon, Madeleine was signed back in a 2.45 and the twins 2.35.
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 11.11.11 15:46



This is Tanner's daughter's footwear, taken from the greyscale photos. Anyone recognise the make?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/G/03_volume%20III_apensoVIII_Page567a.jpg
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 11.11.11 15:53

From Jane Tanner’s Rogatory Interview:

Reply "Yeah the week before we went she was in hospital because she had, well she had a small abscess on her foot which sort of got some bug in it that caused her to have very high temperatures so they had to do a very minor operation just to take the puss out to, do that, and I think she came out of hospital on the wed, I think it was the Wednesday, and we sort of asked a lot of medical advice as to whether we should go or not and we very, so close that we didn't go but then in the end we thought well if we go there's probably more distractions for her there with the friends being there than being stuck at home with us and I say the Doctor said there was no problem in going as long as we kept her out the pool for the first bit so yeah, so we were this close to, well I say it was almost like we weren't going to go and then we suddenly at the end of the day said..."

4078 "What if."


09.52 Reply "Yeah, okay we will go."
4078 "That's my stomach started to rumble, that's rather typical of me at this time of the morning I'm afraid. So by the time you went on holiday, Exxx was fit and well?"
Reply "She was fine apart from her foot, she couldn't wear her shoe so we bought her some mike stuff slippers so she was wearing slippers just to keep it covered, but yeah compared to how poorly she was the actual abscess on her foot was tiny, it was sort of a toxic shock type bug so it made her poorly than the actual cut on her foot so to speak."


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

When did her foot recover enough, to wear the tight shoes above? You can still see the white dressing I believe.
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 11.11.11 16:16

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Gillyspot on 11.11.11 17:08

Stella I think Jane meant Nike trainers. Their is a knitted trainer that looks similar to the one in the picture.Particularly the sole rather than the upper.

http://joshspear.com/item/this-is-studio-nike-78/

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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Tony Bennett on 11.11.11 17:37

Stella wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:REPLY: That line of argument would suggest that the McCanns were keen to be seen by others - who would see the twins and another child and assume that child was Madeleine. There is however little or no evidence of such a pattern of behaviour being repeated through the rest of the week.
Other than going to the creche every day!!! and requesting an engineer to fix the blind (were 3 children present?). Requesting assistance on how to work the washing machine (again was there 3 children present?). If we also include the day the cleaner entered their apartment to find them still there, that is 4 seperate occasions to connect them to that apartment and 3 possible occasions for all 3 children to be seen there.
Stella, do you have the dates and times of:

a) the engineer coming to fix the blind
b) assistance on how to work the washing machine, and
c) the cleaner entering their apartment?

I assume you're saying that on all three occasions there were all three children present.

Also do we know if daily cleaning was provided please?
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Daisy on 11.11.11 17:55

Stella wrote:From Jane Tanner’s Rogatory Interview:

Reply "Yeah the week before we went she was in hospital because she had, well she had a small abscess on her foot which sort of got some bug in it that caused her to have very high temperatures so they had to do a very minor operation just to take the puss out to, do that, and I think she came out of hospital on the wed, I think it was the Wednesday, and we sort of asked a lot of medical advice as to whether we should go or not and we very, so close that we didn't go but then in the end we thought well if we go there's probably more distractions for her there with the friends being there than being stuck at home with us and I say the Doctor said there was no problem in going as long as we kept her out the pool for the first bit so yeah, so we were this close to, well I say it was almost like we weren't going to go and then we suddenly at the end of the day said..."

4078 "What if."


09.52 Reply "Yeah, okay we will go."
4078 "That's my stomach started to rumble, that's rather typical of me at this time of the morning I'm afraid. So by the time you went on holiday, Exxx was fit and well?"
Reply "She was fine apart from her foot, she couldn't wear her shoe so we bought her some mike stuff slippers so she was wearing slippers just to keep it covered, but yeah compared to how poorly she was the actual abscess on her foot was tiny, it was sort of a toxic shock type bug so it made her poorly than the actual cut on her foot so to speak."


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

When did her foot recover enough, to wear the tight shoes above? You can still see the white dressing I believe.

Just for the record (whilst i'm reading them), here's Rachel Oldfield's version of the same events.

RO: Reply


“Gatwick erm Russell and Jane and their children came to stay with us on the Friday night and then we’d all, it was, it was all a bit weird actually cos it was almost like the holiday should never have happened in the first place erm because Ella was ill the week before we went, erm she had an abscess on her foot that she had to go into Hospital and have removed and so Russell and Jane didn’t know whether they’d be able to come and so it was, it was literally a very last minute thing for them, erm we kind of didn’t really know ‘til the Friday morning whether they were gonna come or not, erm cos of Ella’s foot, so anyway but they did and they came up to us on Friday".

Going by their statements, they want us to believe that yet another child was neglected.

If it was so touch & go that this child might not even make the holiday, why the hell would she be left alone to suffer on holiday! You would not do this. It does not make sense.

Why on earth would these parents put themselves in the firing line by revealing such neglect? Why would they give such damning evidence against themselves unless they were hiding something a lot more sinister?


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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 11.11.11 17:58

According to David Payne's statement of it was the blinds and the fridge (not washing machine) they had someone to come and look at...................





Person Interviewed: David PAYNE
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby
Date of Interview: 11.04.08
Time Commenced: 1026 hours
Time Concluded: 1154 hours
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH
Other Persons Present None


Reply ”Err we, you know we did obviously retrospectively question you know who’d been in, in to the resort to actually work there. They, on one of the days they had some err gardening people which we hadn’t you know seen before and we you know we just wondered, you know, after Madeleine had gone err you know who they were and what their you know validity was if you like. Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the fridge and they’d had people in err you know into the flat, you know which obviously retrospectively was a concern as well. Err yeah that, you know who were those people, had they been checked out.”

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id251.html
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 12.11.11 8:22

Good find Candyfloss. It seems our Dave's a little confused there.
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 12.11.11 8:26

@Tony Bennett wrote:Stella, do you have the dates and times of:

a) the engineer coming to fix the blind
b) assistance on how to work the washing machine, and
c) the cleaner entering their apartment?

I assume you're saying that on all three occasions there were all three children present.

Also do we know if daily cleaning was provided please?

Tony, I will gather the information and links today. The children were definitely not present when the cleaner came in, as she confimed this in her statement and it would have been when they were in morning creche around 11 ish, I believe. But as for the other incidents, I will look to confirm if the staff gave statements and mentioned anything.
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 12.11.11 8:34



We should compare this picture with where the cleaner said she was standing, when she saw them all leaving 5a. To consider where she was, in relation to how many front doors the McCann's have to pass to get to the stairwell and if the cleaner was able to see Gerry at his front door.
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 12.11.11 9:22

[quote="Tony Bennett"]

Stella, do you have the dates and times of:

Kate, Gerry, twins and Madeleine?, spotted leaving 5a April 29th.
a) the engineer coming to fix the blind May 1st only Kate present.
b) assistance on how to work the washing machine, and May 1st, same time as above, only Kate present.
c) the cleaner entering their apartment? May 2nd, only Kate and Gerry present.

I assume you're saying that on all three occasions there were all three children present.I didn't know for sure until doing this exercise, which was an interesting to do. I think these 3 sightings are the only ones of their kind and as we can see, only once does Madeleine? appear in them for the whole week.

Also do we know if daily cleaning was provided please? The cleaner does not specify exactly what she does every day, but we can see (schedule below) from what she tells us, that she probably only cleans every other day, so Saturday is arrival (clean and prepare), then clean on Mon, Wed, Fri with rubbish I think collected every day.[/quote]


Cleaning schedule - hours of work 10.00 to18.00

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm

Sat - arrival day, preparing the apartment

Sun

Mon

Tue

Wed - cleaning day.

Thur - did not collect rubbish bags, was doing something else.

Fri - due to police activity, did not clean the apartment.
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 12.11.11 10:40

Stella wrote:What we seem to be left with is 5 people heading towards another apartment, with only two plates and one slice of bread. Am I the only one that thinks that a little odd !!!

Correcting myself here in the interest of accuracy, this should actually read;

Kate, was carrying a plate.

Gerry, is not stated as carrying anything.

Madeleine?, is holding a plastic plate, bearing a 'piece' of bread.

Sean, is holding a 'piece' of bread.

Amelie, is holding a 'piece' of bread.

As someone has recently stated, maybe they were given bread to tie them over. But what were they waiting for, if that's the case?

Also I have just done a word search for 'plates' in DP, FP and DW Rogatory interview and no one mentions plates !!!
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 12.11.11 10:59

Stella wrote:

We should compare this picture with where the cleaner said she was standing, when she saw them all leaving 5a. To consider where she was, in relation to how many front doors the McCann's have to pass to get to the stairwell and if the cleaner was able to see Gerry at his front door.

With the above layout in mind, let's look closer at what the cleaner's daughter says;

“She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them”.



But where was she standing at this point time.



“Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key”.



Her Mother was cleaning 5i, which is on the first floor, next door to the Payne’s apartment. If she approached block 5 through the car park, heading towards the stairs and 5i and saw the children just before they went up the stairs, which is located somewhere between apartments 5d and 5e. Bearing in mind she claims to have been 1 metre away from them, she must have been about to ascend the stairs herself. It’s probably why she did not see what Gerry did with the front door, as the building juts out and this would block her view. But she never mentions Gerry overtaking her somewhere on the stairs, which surely he must have done, having come from 5a and all the way past 5b, 5c and 5d ?


I'm beginning to wonder if she really was as close, as she claims to have been.

She finished by saying;

"After she chatted to her mother about there being many children in the apartments, she had the idea that the family in 5H were friends of Madeleine's family who were staying in 5 A".
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by Guest on 13.11.11 10:04

Reports missing for this day:

Tennis list

Tapas list

Jellyfish crèche list for am

OC daily run report
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Re: Sunday April 29th - the first full day

Post by HiDeHo on 15.11.11 23:51


SUNDAY



SUNDAY APRIL 29
Madeleine McCann AM
Amelie & Sean
9.45
?
KM
?
12.15
?
GM
?
Madeleine McCann PM
Amelie & Sean
Ella O'Brien
2.45
2.25
2.45?
GM
KM
-
5.30
5.30
3.00(30)
GM
GM
ROB?

K&G had tennis lessons - JEZ played with Gerry but although Kate was there she didn't play...probably because she played the hour earlier.

Everyone went to breakfast

At about 1.15pm Cleaner - María Serafim da Silva Espada saw family leave the apartment, Madeleine with shoes that lit up and the twins, all holding bread and Kate with a plate and Gerry locking up

Louisa saw tall man with Madeleine who asked to book tapas for week...Could this have been ROB with E**A as it had to be booked in morning and Madeleine was in the creche. The similarity of Madeleine and E**a is amazing..very easy for each being mistaken for other (except hair colour)


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/GREYSCALE_SNAPS.htm





[size=9]Sunday night MO was sick and did not go


ROB claims to have used MO key to check his children

Gerry May 16th admits to using blinds and he broke them on Sunday and had them repaired on Monday (documents show it was Tuesday)





Sun 29.04.2007
Breakfast Millennium Restaurant
? pruning of hedge
Morning Kids Club
10:00 morning talking over coffee, I went along to tennis
Lunch sandwiches →
→ F balcony and Dave
Kids Club afternoon
Seated in deck-chairs F A A
K and G run - Beach 16:00
High tea
Recreational area
Rest.: No Matt







[/size]
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