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Saturday April 28th - the first night

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b****y baths

Post by russiandoll on 08.11.11 14:45

you know, between the damned diary and the books....why so much about baths and sleep......Kate called the kids evening routine a ritual.........no wonder !
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 08.11.11 14:50

@russiandoll wrote:30th April a very significant date imo.
In addition to the phone issue,
Maddie removed from creche pm, after 15 mins .
Maddie elsewhere, twins picked up at usual time.
Kate although describing the holiday as following pretty much a routine, still manages to describe most days.
May 2nd not much at all.
April 30th, mentions the tapas meal evening and before that a trip to buy a few items from the local supermarket.

and its the date the McCanns were reportedly seen in Sagres? No mention of any trip there other than the June one, in the bewk.
where was Maddie that afternoon after leaving creche and who was she with?

Russiandoll. Please don't take this the wrong way. But this is a topic that is designed to discuss what we know about the first night. It will really complicate things if we put other days, nights and topics into the mix, if you see what I mean?
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 08.11.11 14:57

Molly wrote:A shower wakes you up, refreshes and takes very little time. A Bath is soothing, takes a lot longer and implies relaxation, sleep? Ugh, he's hardly implying they had a long intimate bath together? I need a shower.

I doubt it Molly

I wonder if a late night bath might suggest they were possibly thinking about going out somewhere?

How did the children all get off to sleep with all this commotion going on? and Gerry was worried about using a key.
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 08.11.11 16:01

Dianne Webster talking about the first night.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm

“On the Saturday night we went, we ate at the Millennium restaurant which was the main one which was further away from where we were staying, so we all ate there, the children as well, everybody, and then that, that night I think we all just went back to our apartments I think we were all pretty tired."
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 08.11.11 16:07

Fiona Payne talking about the first night.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

“I'm trying to think where we ate the first night, I think we all went to the Millennium Restaurant, which had a sort of kids super and that was certainly sort of, sort of early evening, I can't remember whether it was six or seven, that sort of time, I remember the kids being very tired, but we all trooped across and had a massive table, overtook the Restaurant, that was the only night that we ate there, mainly because it, it was a bit of a walk and certainly with the younger kids it, imagine we're having to pick them up and put them down and they're wanting to walk, it just took ages and it was quite sort of late for the children, they were sort of not behaving particularly well and just very tired and wanted to go to bed, so it wasn't a great success”.
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 08.11.11 16:12

David Payne talking about the first night.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

00:48:19 1485 "And you all went up as a group?"
Reply " again, as far as I can remember we were all there, it just seemed like the first, as I say as far as I can remember it was the Saturday evening we all went up there you want to explore as well, this was one of the places that we'd been told would, whether there was a reception there and we'd been advised to go there that night, again I can't remember if that was on the information advice but that's what we, decided on, and just to see what it was like up there and you want to explore what the rest of the place is like. You're already thinking you know where are you gonna eat, perhaps on other nights and things like that, so we went up there as far as I can remember that night and with the, with the whole group."

1485 "Okay. How long do you think you stayed up there? Again, no, doesn't have to be times but more sort of time spans."
Reply " I thought we were there, a good couple of hours, it certainly felt, around that time span."

1485 "Mm."
Reply "yeah just working out where we're gonna eat and sit, sit down there and think there wasn't gonna be too many people there right at the beginning eating in the Millennium, and its like where are the high chairs its all new get them sit down then you're all having a good chat you met up and certainly you know two hours or maybe longer."
00:49:54 1485 "Mm, and when you finally left did everybody leave as a group? Or did you leave in dribs and drabs?"
Reply "I haven't a clue, I really can't recall."

1485 "Did you go anywhere else that night?"
Reply "I don't think we did no, I don't think so."
1485 "You didn't go back to the Tapas bar?"
Reply "No."

1485 "The first night."
Reply "No."
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 08.11.11 16:15

Jane Tanner talking about the first night.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

4078 "Do you remember where you ate on that first day?"
Reply "The Millennium, the Millennium Restaurant."

4078 "Okay, and tell me what you can remember about that."
Reply "Err well we all went together with all the children, I think we caused a bit of chaos
when we first arrived though because we were trying to put, there was obviously
quite a lot of us and they were trying to put all the tables together and get high chairs
for the children so yeah they probably thought oh no who's arrived sort of thing.
So
err yeah and it was, it worked well, I think the kids had started to get a bit cranky
purely because, especially like well they'd been up since like, I think we were up at
like five in the morning to get the flight so, but I can't remember anybody feeling
particularly cranky but I think they were. They were obviously getting quite tired at
that stage."


Yet none of the staff mention any of this.
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 08.11.11 16:21

Russell O’Brien talking about the first night (second statement)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

I just want to clarify the, the third from bottom paragraph, on my copy that says 'I recall that they spoke about where to eat', it's just, we were actually at the Tapas here, it says 'I recall this was to be - at the Millennium Restaurant'. I don't, I think that could be just deleted, I mean, we had, we had to eat at the Millennium Restaurant that night because the Tapas was not open on the, the day of arrivals I think, but that implies that we were at the Millennium Restaurant at the time a little bit, so I would perhaps just delete 'at the Millennium Restaurant'. They told, they went, they went through the eating arrangements and they introduced themselves and there were people recruiting for activities, but we were actually at the Tapas at the time".


00.15.28 1578 "So take out 'at the Millennium'?"
Reply "I think just delete 'at the Millennium Restaurant', it just implies that we were in a different position there. There's an error in the next paragraph, 'We all went to the Millennium Restaurant that evening, it was a ten minute walk, this was around half six to seven', probably, I don't know whether we discussed the times, it was probably, maybe six to six thirty for a start. And it says 'Everyone expect Matt was there because he was feeling unwell', that's wrong, Matt actually did come with us but he started to feel quite unwell when we got there and just sort of sat looking fairly green and unhappy during the meal, so he did come with us".
1578 "So we amend the time?"
Reply "I think it was probably a bit earlier than that".
1578 "Eighteen hundred".
Reply "Yeah".
1578 "To eighteen thirty".
Reply "I don't think it was, particularly late".
1578 "And Matt was present?"
Reply "Yeah, but was just,".
1578 "But feeling unwell?"
Reply "Yes, and then it just rather jumps, the next paragraph, 'The children were all in bed' and that the children came, the children were with us on this occasion, yeah, they came up to the Millennium, it was, every single person went up, because we were all in there. I think, maybe the clarity is, after we returned from the Millennium Restaurant I think everyone just put their respective children to bed and called it".
1578 "This implies that the children were not with you at the Millennium?"
Reply "Yes".



1578 "Which in fact they were?"
00.17.06 Reply "No, every, we all went up and then we came back, well I think, when, if we had the video, what, what went on and we talked about there, is that we return, after we returned from the Millennium Restaurant we didn't really do much else, I think we just got our respective children to bed and then, and then probably went too, or not that much longer afterwards. The rest of that page is fine.




What video??
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 08.11.11 16:26

Matt Oldfield talking about the first night.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

Reply "I think, I mean, they would have had to settle into their, and not particularly clearly at this stage, but, I mean, the, that evening, in terms of what was going to happen and where we were going to get food, slightly different, in that, they did an arrival meet and greet at the Millennium Restaurant, which was slightly distant from the apartment complex, rather than the Tapas, the Tapas was closed for that night and there was also an opportunity to meet sort of the child care people and all of the sort of sports and activities people. So I think, I think at about sort of I'm not absolutely certain about this, but I think at about four o'clock we also went poolside, four or five o'clock, and that's where you met the Nannies who'd be looking after the children the next day, so I think we, you met that time and then it was packing up and going over to the Millennium Restaurant and having tea and then coming back and putting everybody down".
4078 "Right".
Reply "So we all ate that evening at the Millennium with the kids, except, expect I was feeling unwell so I didn't each much but I was still at the Restaurant that night".
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 08.11.11 16:31

Rachel Oldfield talking about the first night.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

"dinner that night was at the Millennium Restaurant, which was sort of about a ten minute walk from where our apart, apartments were, I think dinner there that night was gonna start at either six or six thirty, maybe six thirty and we all trooped up there then for dinner, so yeah I think we just hung around, sort of by the pool and on the recreation area after the talk".
1578 "So before we move on to your routine, a summary of your routine through the week".
Reply "Mmm".


"so the Saturday night we had dinner at the Millennium, which was quite chaotic because there were eight kids and nine adults it was like we don't really want to be doing this every night, and well Matt, Matt wasn't well that night, he threw up a few times, so on the Sunday, he stayed in bed for quite a bit of the morning I think"
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 08.11.11 16:33

Stella wrote:
Molly wrote:A shower wakes you up, refreshes and takes very little time. A Bath is soothing, takes a lot longer and implies relaxation, sleep? Ugh, he's hardly implying they had a long intimate bath together? I need a shower.

I doubt it Molly

I wonder if a late night bath might suggest they were possibly thinking about going out somewhere?

How did the children all get off to sleep with all this commotion going on? and Gerry was worried about using a key.

Stella, can you explain about Gerry & the key?
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stella

Post by russiandoll on 08.11.11 17:55

oh yes message received and understood.
will keep to 28th.
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molly

Post by russiandoll on 08.11.11 18:05

I recall Gerry in the panorama documentary saying that they used the patio doors because it made less noise than opening the front doors and this would mean the children would not be disturbed.
I have a feeling it was also to do with being more convenient for the McCanns, I think the others in the group went the long way and used their front doors but I might be wrong .
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by tigger on 08.11.11 18:17

So Millenium,
ROB is his usual self, incapable of finishing a sentence. But there was a video???? Never heard of since? (Makes sense if the same person as the one in the bus followed on with this unique gathering of all the adults and children).
JT is like, like OK I get it, all at the Millenium where all the staff should have noticed - tables and chairs and high chairs moved. Large party.
Staff doesn't remember this - interviews with staff sometime before 10th May?
DP can't remember anything much.
Staff have noticed the twins but not Maddie.

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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 08.11.11 19:12

Thanks, Russiandoll, I don't recall reading that, there was something else about leaving it open for fear of fire. It's interesting, not wanting to make noise yet using the bathroom wouldn't bother them at all.

Tigger, it is interesting that Madeleine wasn't actually identified in the Millennium, I can probably understand it to a degree at that point because Madeleine might have chosen to sit beside one of the older kids and the twins would probably stand out a bit more. But it seems to be a recurring theme throughout the whole holiday, no independent witnesses apart from the creche and a handful of very suspicious photographs.

I had a dream recently, it was very vivid and SY solved it, the answer was that Madeleine never in fact existed at all. Poor wee thing, apart from a few campaign photos and very sketchy information about her, it's like she never did.


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Not too much to look at on Saturday - shall we move on to look at Sunday's events?

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.11.11 23:04

It's a good thread, thank you Stella for posting the witness interviews and to whoever posted up HideHo's analysis.

I think it would be excellent if we could look at the witness statements one day at a time like this and carefully analyse them.

However, having reviewed the entire thread, I don't think there is too much to detain us about the events of Saturday.

Molly has given a succinct summary of the day's events, which I see broadly as follows:

* First two couples arrive late morning

* Paynes and McCanns arrive say early afternoon

* All meet around the pool around four-ish

* All 17 have dinner at the Millennium around six-ish

* Around eight they retire to theur rooms and say they go to bed because theat are tired.

The Millennium staff saw them all together; Jane Tanner (I think) says it was 'chaos' getting the tables together and high chairs but then she is a bit of a drama queen andf hardly the most reliable witness. The staff probbaly thought nothing of it.

Points of interest for me from the thread so far:

1. Gerry's golfing weekends in Portugal. True, we know nothing about where they were, and they might well have been in Praia da Luz. Whoever pointed out that Dr Gerald McCann was trying to make out they were all 'new to Praia da Luz' made a very good point IMO. By the way, in another case of which I am aware, a group of well-heeled paedophiles deceived everyone including their families by sexually abusing children at a hideway in mid-France whilst claiming to their wives that they were going on 'Round Table conferences'. I think if you look at Robert Murat's second statement (the one where he changed his story in at least 17 respects), he admits to having a meeting (was it on 2 May?) at the local golf club. Who with? Dr Gerald McCann's golfing weekends may partly explain the comment made by one of the McCann family that there was 'always someone with Kate to help her look after the children' when Gerry 'was away on all his conferences' (may not have got the wording exactly right).

2. Was the 'playground' photo taken that afternoon? I would suggest 'yes' for these reasons: (a) Madeleine wearing the same clothes as on the airport bus and climbing up the steps of the plane (b) length of shadows on the pic which suggest to me late afternoon, consistent with them all being 'around the poolside' around 4pm to 5pm. Incidentally I do not think there is any tampering/photoshopping with this photo, it seems to me to be a 'natural' picture of a family just arrived on holiday. I do not think that any part of the 'Last Photo' was taken on this day. The very short shadows on that photo mean it must have been taken close to midday (whenever it was taken).

3. I was not wholly convinced that after 8pm each one of them just put the kids to bed and then were so tired that they went to be themselves.

4. The 4.20am 'phone call on the Sunday morning could be significant.
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Daisy on 08.11.11 23:57

Molly wrote:
Tigger, it is interesting that Madeleine wasn't actually identified in the Millennium, I can probably understand it to a degree at that point because Madeleine might have chosen to sit beside one of the older kids and the twins would probably stand out a bit more. But it seems to be a recurring theme throughout the whole holiday, no independent witnesses apart from the creche and a handful of very suspicious photographs.

I had a dream recently, it was very vivid and SY solved it, the answer was that Madeleine never in fact existed at all. Poor wee thing, apart from a few campaign photos and very sketchy information about her, it's like she never did.



She was though, this is where more confusion comes in. Several of the Millenium staff Police statements say they remember the McCanns (& Madeleine) being in the Millennium on more than one occasion at breakfast.

Truth is stranger than fiction Molly, your dream doesn't appear that far out to me. Wink

Great thread Stella. Wow! the inconsistencies amongst those statements. As my old Nan used to say - this lot couldn't lie straight in bed.

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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by jd on 09.11.11 0:19

The staff thought they saw Maddie? Even we do not know exactly what Maddie looks like she is so different in many of the pictures

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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Daisy on 09.11.11 0:32

@jd wrote:The staff thought they saw Maddie? Even we do not know exactly what Maddie looks like she is so different in many of the pictures

Ok, I should have said the staff (several members of) claim they saw 'Madeleine' with her parents on more than the one occasion the McCanns claimed to have breakfasted there. Why would the staff on duty make this up or lie about it? Are we to throw these witness statements out as unreliable?

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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 8:24

I think Tony is right, we need to examine all the days in the same way as this one. But I think it is imperative that we seperate them out, so that in the end we have a full set. This way, as and when we have more info to add about a particular day, it can be added to the right one, so that all the information is in one place. It makes it easier to refer back to, if necessary. So I will start the next day in a minute.

Yes Molly, my reference to a key was to make a point that the McCann's thought turning one slowly in the front door, would be more noisy than sliding the rear patio door open and closed, or more noisy than all their bathroom/shower activities. It makes no sense at all.

For me, this thread has opened my eyes to the number of T9 who refer to a welcome meeting at the Millennium, which RoB first stated and then wanted to change his statement !!, but others talk of a welcome meeting at the tapas restaurant !! Was there 2 welcome meetings? Also who was this person taking video footage at the Millennium restaurant on the first night and where is that footage now?
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Nina on 09.11.11 10:22

I know this is the Daily Mail but there is a mention of Madeleine helping to find high chairs at the Millenium. I have read this somewhere else, more official, so probably a statement.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-489143/Kate-Gerry-left-Madeleine-hours-nights-row.html

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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 10:29

Which must have been caught on that video footage if true Nina, you would have thought.
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by pauline on 09.11.11 10:37

@Nina wrote:I know this is the Daily Mail but there is a mention of Madeleine helping to find high chairs at the Millenium. I have read this somewhere else, more official, so probably a statement.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-489143/Kate-Gerry-left-Madeleine-hours-nights-row.html

read the daily Mail article - revealed something I didn't know - that you could use the nanny baby sitting service at a rate of €15 ph for sharing the sitter.

So for 3 hours it would be €45 for the evening - now split between 4 couples (ie 8 people) with good jobs (6 are doctors) that's great value to have an uninterrupted dinner. Why didn't they use the service? Many of us think that all the children were minded together but that meant one person missing out on the evening's conviviality - so was that cost too much for a very MEAN group? their children are not worth less than €6 per head for the evening?
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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Nina on 09.11.11 10:41

Stella wrote:Which must have been caught on that video footage if true Nina, you would have thought.



Yes indeed Stella. Imo if there were to be any photos or videos the very first night get together would have been a must for the albums, but none ever released. And of course the McCanns asking for other folks holiday photos could have also shown this first supper of the full group.

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Re: Saturday April 28th - the first night

Post by Guest on 09.11.11 10:52

Yes Nina, that is a good point. Why show the airport footage, when they could have released a closer piece of footage of her in the Millennium collecting high chairs?
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