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Where would a body be hidden?

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Nina on 22.10.11 17:15

@ufercoffy wrote:It's funny you should mention that tigger cos I was only looking for pics today of the Healy's dressed in black and was wondering about some kind of burial/memorial service. I remember it being discussed on the 3As.



I wonder what they wore for the christening service they went back to the UK for, Michael Wright's two children, and not babies or toddlers either.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Upsy Daisy on 22.10.11 17:15

I find the Huelva idea more plausible. Does anyone know if this was ever followed up and if indeed it could be. I am not familiar with how the grounds are looked after and could a stranger just pull up and dump a body there in or around the area??

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Huelva topic

Post by tigger on 22.10.11 17:20

@Upsy Daisy wrote:I find the Huelva idea more plausible. Does anyone know if this was ever followed up and if indeed it could be. I am not familiar with how the grounds are looked after and could a stranger just pull up and dump a body there in or around the area??

Best thing you can do is look at the Huelva topic from September. I think there are photographs of the area and otherwise you could try Google earth. The Huelva topic is very interesting, threw up lots of information.

Added: link for the Sagres family meeting June and interesting video of John M.

http://mccannfundfraud.info/2008/12/the-car-hired-5-weeks-after-madeleines-disappearance/

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Upsy Daisy on 22.10.11 17:49

Thanks for the link Tigger. I had not stumbled upon much regarding the Sagres trip and only fleetingly read about it so I'm intrigued to find out more. It's funny after following this case for the best part of 4 years I did not know much about this Shocked. It would appear that these two trips have more to them than meets the eye, for sure.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Nina on 22.10.11 18:06

@tigger wrote:
@Upsy Daisy wrote:I find the Huelva idea more plausible. Does anyone know if this was ever followed up and if indeed it could be. I am not familiar with how the grounds are looked after and could a stranger just pull up and dump a body there in or around the area??

Best thing you can do is look at the Huelva topic from September. I think there are photographs of the area and otherwise you could try Google earth. The Huelva topic is very interesting, threw up lots of information.

Added: link for the Sagres family meeting June and interesting video of John M.

http://mccannfundfraud.info/2008/12/the-car-hired-5-weeks-after-madeleines-disappearance/[/quote[/url" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">]



Thankyou Tigger for that link, in 4 plus years never seen it. This comment re the fund is very interesting and needs further research re timing,




[url=http://mccannfundfraud.info/?p=147&cp=1#comment-28714]7

Super Sleuth
July 11th, 2011 at 11:36 pm

Hi

Just received an e-mail from Companies House regarding the setting up of a Private Company Limited By Guarantee guess what?

The time scale for the normal service of and incorporation of a company, is 8/10 working days then the certificate is sent out in the normal post this can take up to three days.

Note 7/5/7 was a Bank Holiday sounds like the paper work was sent prior to the holiday.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Guest on 22.10.11 18:18

@Nina wrote: I wonder what they wore for the christening service they went back to the UK for, Michael Wright's two children, and not babies or toddlers either.

I also wonder why Michael Wright left his family and children on the eve of their children's baptism to fly to Portugal to get Kate & twins when surely she could have accompanied Gerry on the Thursday (I think it was) and spent more time with Anne-Marie, Michael and their kids. Above and beyond the realms of helpfulness. Kate mentions in her book how helpful and attentive the police were to them in Skipton.
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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 22.10.11 18:54

@rainbow-fairy wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote: Rainbow and Tigger, yes, there are definately a strong argument that the body was moved. The popular theory of what happened could well be how it did actually happen. I find the notion that someone could store and move a dead child perfectly nausiating TBH. I do however, think it is possible something could be dumped in the sea and never recovered, unproveable either way until one does it!!. Cadavarine in the Renault? Watching the dogs you cannot argue with them can you? I'm just saying that I think it is possible that a body could be at sea and it be a safe place of concealment, and that I think it very risky moving a body. I've followed many of the discussions about concealment and disposal, and whilst I cannot better the theories based on what information is available and/or provable info, it still sounds very gross and complicated for a bunch of boring 30 somethings to pull off in a foreign country. They could not do it without the help of someone living in or around PDL. If it was Murat, well then the spotlight needs to spin back onto him. If not Murat who? Without the third party, IMO it's not possible.

Smokeandmirrors, I really hope you don't take this the wrong way and in the spirit it's intended. I'm having trouble, from the tone of your post, working out whether the bolded quote about cadaverine and not arguing with the dogs, is sarcastic, ironic, or you really DO BELIEVE that you can't argue with their findings? This is genuine confusion on my part, I'm not accusing you of making mischief - just thinking I may have misunderstood?
From my point of view, I don't think the dogs can be argued with! It's not in a dogs nature to lie, nor be biased, and some comments I've read that they alert to 'please' their handler is just not true. K+G have slipped up more than once with their rubbishing of the dogs. The USA 'Zapata' case is the biggie! They quoted how the dogs were wrong, there was no murder, the dogs had alerted in various places just to get a scooby snack from their handler, etc etc. They used this example like a talisman (or a life-jacket). If IRC, no blood or DNA was found to corroborate the dog alerts and Mr Zapata maintained his innocence. All looked good for K+G 'til Mr Zapata finally confessed to murder, admitting his wife's body had INDEED been in EVERY PLACE THE DOGS ALERTED!!! Oops, all of a sudden it was no longer the Mccann's life-jacket - hmmm, wonder why?!?

I tend to go with the alerts, and storage, which rules out the sea for me. But I can see the rationale behind your theory! It would be perfectly believable if not for the cadaverine.

Sorry if it sounded sarcastic, reading it back I see what you mean! It's true I find the notion of moving a dead body nauseating, and hard to believe in a way and I make no apology for that. As a mother I really cannot wrap my head round the idea of carrying the three week old corpse of child in the back of the car. Even if it gets proven that's what happened 100%, I will still find it hard to believe! Cadavarine in the boot and the dogs, well I believe the dogs were right, I've seen police dogs at work and the boot of the Scenic wasn't left open at night for no reason. These dogs are amazing, end of story. The question marks were rhetorical.

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Not off topic

Post by Daisy on 22.10.11 20:31

I haven't really studied the Huelva trip, I've only read what's been
collated on this site. But I have read what I can on the Mari Luz case (it's a very interesting one that didn't get much focus here despite close links). And
for me, every time the topic of Huelva comes up I get an image of this beautiful
little 5 yr old who disappeared in Huelva just 5 months after team
McCann visited.

They aligned themselves to this case pretty quickly, making it all about their story, their pain, just for the publicity, like they've always done.

Gerry's blog: Day 257 - 15/01/2008 "Kate and I were dismayed to learn
today that a 5-year-old girl has been missing from Huelva, in Southern
Spain since Sunday evening. As many of you know, Heulva is approximately
a 2 hour drive from Praia da Luz and we went there in early August to p
ublicise Madeleine’s disappearance. Hearing of the probable abduction of Mari Luz Cortesa
* has brought many awful emotions flooding back. We hope and pray that
Mari is quickly found and returned safely to her family."


I think it backfired a bit though. Mari Luz's father was not happy. I wonder why?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-515636/McCanns-slammed-father-missing-Spanish-girl-putting-Madeleine-poster-daughter.html

We know Mari Luz's body was found (54 days after she disappeared) badly
decomposed, floating in a river estuary. And (to cut a long story short)
2 people are in prison for her murder. One of them, reportedly a
paedophile that abused his own daughter. If this is true, may he rot in
jail. But the point i'm getting to is - The reports say there was NO
forensic evidence! Compared to the McCann case, this conviction makes no
sense at all? I'm stunned when I compare the cases. Can someone help explain this please.

"Forensic police involved in the Mari Luz Cortés case have said in court
that they found no forensic evidence in their analyses linking the
victim with the two suspects who are on trial for her murder
, Santiago
del Valle and his sister Rosa.



They said the only faint possibility are two fragments of hair, one
found on Mari Luz’s body and the other in the boot of Rosa del Valle’s
car, which analysis showed to be of the same type.



They could be from the same person, but it’s understood the possibility
is one in 6,000. What is known is that they do not belong to either of
the del Valle’s or any of their maternal family, nor to Isabel García,
Santiago del Valle’s wife, or to Mari Luz or any of her maternal family.



Police experts in chemical analyses described evidence in Rosa del
Valle’s car as non-conclusive, and said there was nothing in their
detailed inspection of a shopping cart believed to have been used to
transport Mari Luz to show that she had been there.



The boots Santiago del Valle wore on the day the youngster disappeared
also proved difficult in providing samples and were described as
‘extremely clean’,"
Read more: http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_29329.shtml#ixzz1bXLfC6g7

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apologies, Smokeandmirrors!!!

Post by rainbow-fairy on 22.10.11 21:41

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
@rainbow-fairy wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote: Rainbow and Tigger, yes, there are definately a strong argument that the body was moved. The popular theory of what happened could well be how it did actually happen. I find the notion that someone could store and move a dead child perfectly nausiating TBH. I do however, think it is possible something could be dumped in the sea and never recovered, unproveable either way until one does it!!. Cadavarine in the Renault? Watching the dogs you cannot argue with them can you? I'm just saying that I think it is possible that a body could be at sea and it be a safe place of concealment, and that I think it very risky moving a body. I've followed many of the discussions about concealment and disposal, and whilst I cannot better the theories based on what information is available and/or provable info, it still sounds very gross and complicated for a bunch of boring 30 somethings to pull off in a foreign country. They could not do it without the help of someone living in or around PDL. If it was Murat, well then the spotlight needs to spin back onto him. If not Murat who? Without the third party, IMO it's not possible.

Smokeandmirrors, I really hope you don't take this the wrong way and in the spirit it's intended. I'm having trouble, from the tone of your post, working out whether the bolded quote about cadaverine and not arguing with the dogs, is sarcastic, ironic, or you really DO BELIEVE that you can't argue with their findings? This is genuine confusion on my part, I'm not accusing you of making mischief - just thinking I may have misunderstood?
From my point of view, I don't think the dogs can be argued with! It's not in a dogs nature to lie, nor be biased, and some comments I've read that they alert to 'please' their handler is just not true. K+G have slipped up more than once with their rubbishing of the dogs. The USA 'Zapata' case is the biggie! They quoted how the dogs were wrong, there was no murder, the dogs had alerted in various places just to get a scooby snack from their handler, etc etc. They used this example like a talisman (or a life-jacket). If IRC, no blood or DNA was found to corroborate the dog alerts and Mr Zapata maintained his innocence. All looked good for K+G 'til Mr Zapata finally confessed to murder, admitting his wife's body had INDEED been in EVERY PLACE THE DOGS ALERTED!!! Oops, all of a sudden it was no longer the Mccann's life-jacket - hmmm, wonder why?!?

I tend to go with the alerts, and storage, which rules out the sea for me. But I can see the rationale behind your theory! It would be perfectly believable if not for the cadaverine.

Sorry if it sounded sarcastic, reading it back I see what you mean! It's true I find the notion of moving a dead body nauseating, and hard to believe in a way and I make no apology for that. As a mother I really cannot wrap my head round the idea of carrying the three week old corpse of child in the back of the car. Even if it gets proven that's what happened 100%, I will still find it hard to believe! Cadavarine in the boot and the dogs, well I believe the dogs were right, I've seen police dogs at work and the boot of the Scenic wasn't left open at night for no reason. These dogs are amazing, end of story. The question marks were rhetorical.

I'm sorry Smokeandmirrors! I posted the other day about how hard it can be picking up nuances in text, and it can be so easy to think someone is disagreeing when in actual fact they are 100% with you!
Reading back, I jumped so much on the dog bit, I forgot about the other bit I bolded! I have to say - 100% agree that carrying a body, ESPECIALLY your DAUGHTERS body, in the boot is disgusting and nauseating, as has been most of the actions of Team McCann since 07. Nauseating, disgusting, unexplained, just plain WEIRD.

Interestingly AND weirdly, my near neighbour has a Renault Scenic (it's hunter green not silver LOL!) And literally WHENEVER I walk past, they have the boot and back doors open - all weathers it seems! Are Scenics prone to nasty odours, or just strange owners?!? Nah, she (seems!) lovely actually. It just strikes me as an odd coincidence!

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PeterMac

Post by tigger on 23.10.11 17:39

@PeterMac wrote:It seems to me that there are various strands of what we can loosely call 'evidence' which any theory MUST include.
Blood
Cadaverine
fingerprints
phone ‘pings’
mileage on hire car
crying for hours
subsequent actions by all members of the group


And a whole list of things which have been offered as 'evidence' which we can ignore
shutters
window
whoosh of curtains
bundleman with blanket
bundleman with small girl
pyjamas white or pink
time-line version 1
time-line version 2
chloroform
and so on


I have a problem with introducing yet another element, namely a boat, as this involves an owner, and more time than we have available.
I find the phrase 'no stone unturned' strangely compelling, and the incessant references to Rocha Negra - no fewer than 7 times in the book, plus photo - is something that Pat Brown focussed on.
If you look on maps.google or google earth you can see quite a lot of detail of that area.


I posted this idea on the Sagres trip 30/4 but would like to run this past you.

I'm convinced that they were and are able to have so many people complicit although not actively so in this whole affair, because these people, family and friends were already prepared for 'something' to happen.
I'm also convinced that they used the faith card so soon and insistently, because it enabled them to show they did what they could for Maddie after her death.
Nina ferreted out some requirements of the Catholic church: 3 days after death, church, 9 days after death, church, 40 days memorial(service), 3 months, visit the grave to say goodbye.

If Maddie died on the 1st, directly after the crying episode, we have:
3/4th - Kate says they were praying, asked the police where the church was
9/10th - ? must check diaries and blogs and book
40 days exactly is meeting with family and friends in Sagres http://mccannfundfraud.info/2008/12/the-car-hired-5-weeks-after-madeleines-disappearance.
Huelva - they were due to go on the 1st, but went on the 2nd. August. Three months.
Nina also said that a grave can be consecrated anywhere with just a handful of consecrated earth.

IMO the initial hiding place was a freezer possibly organised with Murat.
The final burial nr. Huelva took place possibly before the 8th of June, because at that date the (cadaverine odour of) sea bass first appears in Gerry's blog. I would imagine the odour in the car would have set him searching the internet for such information.
I also think third parties did this for them. Not a big risk because they would be paid well and not likely to go to the police. I'm really wondering when metodo 3 came into the picture. The sites which are shown on the Huelva topic are sufficiently remote I think. I'm just thinking that Metodo, with their drug connections, would know where to lose the odd body safely.

I really can't see a van with an inflatable sign or a private yacht having anything to do with this.

Observance of the rites for the dead would certainly convince family and friends that it was say - an accidental overdose. Although the body needed to be hidden, all the respect due to the dead would be seen to be done.
That's why I'm against any watery grave, apart from the danger of the tides.

The Rocha Negra, yes, she does mention it a lot, but that early photograph of the two of them sitting there was a photoshoot and straight out of Hollywood imo. I think in a way Rocha Negra - such a romantic name - is another prop. She mentions going there looking out to sea, feeling closer to Maddie. I think it's a red herring.

I also don't think they had powerful friends with yachts, I think they knew them but getting them to ship a box with contents to the UK strikes me as very unlikely. For a start, the sailors would have to handle it, can't see a rich owner doing that themselves. Too many people, too risky, too smelly too, I'd have thought.






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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Nina on 23.10.11 20:59

Whilst doing further reading re Catholic buriels and checking for at sea scrolled down and was amazed at the piece re ashes in an urn.

http://dictionary.sensagent.com/burial+at+sea/en-en/



snipped......

Christianity


Catholicism


Officially, the Roman Catholic Church prefers normal casket burials over cremations, but does allow for cremation subject to the condition that the ashes are entombed or buried. The Church is against the scattering of cremated remains on the ground, in the air, or at sea; the Church is also against forgoing proper disposal and keeping the ashes in private possession, such as for display on a mantle. Burial at sea in a casket or in an urn is approved for cases where the deceased expired in the sea. The committal prayer number 406§4 is used in this case.

So that puts paid to the theory of a while ago that the urn on the McCanns mantle was containing Madeleine's ashes.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 24.10.11 7:21

the thing on the mantle in the photograph which people suggested was an urn is in fact a pottery money box. A shop in our town sells them with various patterns and some of my friends have them in their homes.

Google Terramundi for a look!

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 24.10.11 7:31



Found this image.....thought it very apt!!

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 24.10.11 7:33



For comparison

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Bebootje on 24.10.11 13:33

I believe Madeleine was moved several times before her final restingplace. And I believe she is buried.

I


1.
The Smith Sighting (statements in
PJ files)


2.
Gerry asking for a Priest May 3.
(statement in PJ files)


3.
A couple resembling the mcCanns
was seen leaving a building in the vincinity of the beach in the early May 4. (this
stuck in my memory but I still haven’t found the statement in the files)


From the book of Kate we know
that indeed they (Kate and Gerry) were outside in the early morning of May 4.


4.
There were possible sightings of
Gerry at two buildings near/next to the Luz cemetery. Various apartments were
available in thos buildings but could not be ascertained which – if any –
apartment may have been of interest.


There was a sighting of Gerry
at a residence called Vila d’Arte in the Melody Urbanisation in Espiche, during the month of
July, it was possible to determine which residence this was and that the
building is the permanent residence of some citizens from NL or the UK for the
past 4 or 5 years. The property is normally rented out, the owners do not live
there on a permanent basis.

5. The material found in the car (bodily fluids of unfrozen material, as were stated by the media) which contained Madeleines DNA and that of 3 other contributors.



6.
6. December 2007 various media
reported that the PJ was investigating a telephone call between Russel O’Brien
and Gerry on 10 june 2007. A team of telephone surveillance officers highlighted the call as
it was understood to have contained key words that aroused police suspicions.
It was understood Gerry McCann told detectives the call was made within a 4km
radius of Praia da Luz but technicians working on the mobile phone network
dismissed this after examining records. It is believed the call took place 28km
from Praia da Luz.
Shortly after that the news broke in the media that the PJ
was
investigating a disused barn
in the south-east of Praia da Luz following the discovery of a blood stained
towel which police believe may turn out to be Madeleine's blood.
Fibres on the towel allegedly match fibres from the Renault Scenic hire car
the McCanns' hired 25 days after Madeleine's disappearance. The information
cannot be found in the PJ files but contained so much detail that I can hardly
imagine it was completely invented by media.







Concerning her final restingplace this message was placed on the Interpol site and was concerned serious enough to send it to the PJ
It does not state it was further investigated.
:
14 Apensos V Vol XIV Pages 3043 to 3046 page 106









14_volume_XIV_apenso_V_3046-106






TO: Interpol Lisbon


Subject: Madeleine McCann - Yellow Alert F-131/5-2007

We are sending an attached message that was posted on the public
Interpol site on 23rd May 2008.

We ask you to take the necessary measures and let us know the
results of your investigations in the light of this message.

If necessary do not hesitate to contact Operation Centre 1 24/7.

With compliments

IP LYON

23-5-2008

From S********. Sent on Friday 23rd May 2008.
For INFO, Subject Madeleine McCann

Hello,

I attached the photo of a small and abandoned chapel of a former
convent in the Portel/Alentejo (Portugal) to the East of Lisbon.
It is on top of a hill, in a remote and isolated place. I think
this could be the place where Madeleine McCann is buried and I
will explain why.

The period 21st May 2007 and 10 June 2007 should be of interest
to the investigation. Let us suppose that the McCanns were
involved in the accidental death of their daughter and that they
hid her body temporarily while they were looking for a permanent
burial place. This would coincide with DNA evidence that
indicates that Madeleine's body was transported in the Renault
Scenic.

As the McCanns are Catholics, I suppose they would have tried to
find a religious place. At this time they were not yet suspects
and did not have to be so careful when they were searching for
this site.

So, we have two people in a foreign country looking for a place
to bury their daughter. Not just an appropriate place, but also
some place where nobody would look.

The obvious thing to begin this process would be to look at a
map of Portugal. I looked at copies of all the maps printed in
the UK and it is therefore highly probable that I have the same
map that the McCanns were using when they were in Portugal. Many
of these maps have small dark symbols that signify religious
buildings. There are none in the south of Portugal but there are
various in the North of the country. I think that the McCanns
looked at these symbols.

Unfortunately, these symbols do not refer to details about the
religious buildings. In order to establish that it would perhaps
be necessary to resort to Internet. It would be very difficult
for the McCanns to do this in Portugal using a rented computer
and with the police and media surrounding them. That is the
reason why I think the events between 21st May and 10 June are
very important.

21/22 May

Gerry McCann is in the UK. Could it be that Gerry McCann took
advantage of this opportunity, in the privacy of his home, to
search for appropriate places for the burial? I think this is
very probable given the attitudes of the McCanns after Gerry's
return to Portugal.


23 May (one day after Gerry's return to Portugal)

Gerry and Kate McCann travel to Fatima passing many areas of
Portugal on their way. I think that this trip was made so that
the McCanns could see for themselves the areas where some of the
religious buildings were found. Now the Alentejo/Portel chapel
is situated on a hill top, I don't know whether they managed to
see it during this trip to Fatima, but they could have seen the
area upon their return.

The location being decided, the McCanns spent the following days
planning how to transport Madeleine for burial in the Alentejo.

28 May

The McCanns rented the Renault Scenic even though they knew they
were going to Rome on the following day and would not use it.
They rented the Renault BEFORE leaving for Rome deliberately so
that someone could use it to transport Madeleine's body while
they were away. Why did they hire it precisely at this time?
Upon going to Rome the McCanns took the media of the whole world
with them, leaving the way free for someone to take Madeleine to
Alentejo.

29/30 May

The McCanns are in Rome with the Pope. What better place to be
while their daughter was buried?. While not being able to offer
a dignified funeral for Madeleine, the best thing to do would be
to obtain a blessing from the Pope himself. I believe firmly
that Madeleine McCann was buried whilst the McCanns were in
Rome.

3 June

I think it is said that the Renault had clocked up excessive
mileage. Alentejo/Portel is situated 160 km from Praia da Luz
which could explain this.


10 June

Gerry and Kate McCann leave Praia da Luz at the end of the
afternoon to go to Lisbon by car in order to catch a flight to
Morocco. For what reason did the McCanns travel by car to Lisbon
to catch the flight to Morocco when they could have flown from
Faro? Did they take advantage of this opportunity to visit
Madeleine's burial site? It is located at only 20 minutes by car
from Lisbon.

I went through this with detail. The Alentejo/Portel chapel is
not a place represented by one of the dark symbols but is very
close to one of them.

I checked all the chapels, churches and religious buildings in
the north of Portugal and the chapel I refer to is the most
obvious. There is no other unused religious building that could
be more suitable for the McCanns. If I were the McCanns, I would
have chosen the Portel chapel in Alentejo. It is a suitably
agreeable and remote place in order to facilitate the burial of
a body without being seen by anyone. It is perfect.

Don't just take my word. Have a look around and see if you can
find a better place.

Given that Maddie is probably buried inside a bag (as is
suggested by the laboratory examinations carried out on the car)
she could possibly be found with the use of a metal detector.

I hope that you communicate this message to the appropriate
persons. I sent elements about this building to the PJ in
Portimao but maybe the Lisbon officers are better placed to
proceed with these investigations.


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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 24.10.11 18:55

@Bebootje wrote:I believe Madeleine was moved several times before her final restingplace. And I believe she is buried.

I


1.
The Smith Sighting (statements in
PJ files)


2.
Gerry asking for a Priest May 3.
(statement in PJ files)


3.
A couple resembling the mcCanns
was seen leaving a building in the vincinity of the beach in the early May 4. (this
stuck in my memory but I still haven’t found the statement in the files)


From the book of Kate we know
that indeed they (Kate and Gerry) were outside in the early morning of May 4.


4.
There were possible sightings of
Gerry at two buildings near/next to the Luz cemetery. Various apartments were
available in thos buildings but could not be ascertained which – if any –
apartment may have been of interest.


There was a sighting of Gerry
at a residence called Vila d’Arte in the Melody Urbanisation in Espiche, during the month of
July, it was possible to determine which residence this was and that the
building is the permanent residence of some citizens from NL or the UK for the
past 4 or 5 years. The property is normally rented out, the owners do not live
there on a permanent basis.

5. The material found in the car (bodily fluids of unfrozen material, as were stated by the media) which contained Madeleines DNA and that of 3 other contributors.



6.
6. December 2007 various media
reported that the PJ was investigating a telephone call between Russel O’Brien
and Gerry on 10 june 2007. A team of telephone surveillance officers highlighted the call as
it was understood to have contained key words that aroused police suspicions.
It was understood Gerry McCann told detectives the call was made within a 4km
radius of Praia da Luz but technicians working on the mobile phone network
dismissed this after examining records. It is believed the call took place 28km
from Praia da Luz.
Shortly after that the news broke in the media that the PJ
was
investigating a disused barn
in the south-east of Praia da Luz following the discovery of a blood stained
towel which police believe may turn out to be Madeleine's blood.
Fibres on the towel allegedly match fibres from the Renault Scenic hire car
the McCanns' hired 25 days after Madeleine's disappearance. The information
cannot be found in the PJ files but contained so much detail that I can hardly
imagine it was completely invented by media.







Concerning her final restingplace this message was placed on the Interpol site and was concerned serious enough to send it to the PJ
It does not state it was further investigated.
:
14 Apensos V Vol XIV Pages 3043 to 3046 page 106









14_volume_XIV_apenso_V_3046-106






TO: Interpol Lisbon


Subject: Madeleine McCann - Yellow Alert F-131/5-2007

We are sending an attached message that was posted on the public
Interpol site on 23rd May 2008.

We ask you to take the necessary measures and let us know the
results of your investigations in the light of this message.

If necessary do not hesitate to contact Operation Centre 1 24/7.

With compliments

IP LYON

23-5-2008

From S********. Sent on Friday 23rd May 2008.
For INFO, Subject Madeleine McCann

Hello,

I attached the photo of a small and abandoned chapel of a former
convent in the Portel/Alentejo (Portugal) to the East of Lisbon.
It is on top of a hill, in a remote and isolated place. I think
this could be the place where Madeleine McCann is buried and I
will explain why.

The period 21st May 2007 and 10 June 2007 should be of interest
to the investigation. Let us suppose that the McCanns were
involved in the accidental death of their daughter and that they
hid her body temporarily while they were looking for a permanent
burial place. This would coincide with DNA evidence that
indicates that Madeleine's body was transported in the Renault
Scenic.

As the McCanns are Catholics, I suppose they would have tried to
find a religious place. At this time they were not yet suspects
and did not have to be so careful when they were searching for
this site.

So, we have two people in a foreign country looking for a place
to bury their daughter. Not just an appropriate place, but also
some place where nobody would look.

The obvious thing to begin this process would be to look at a
map of Portugal. I looked at copies of all the maps printed in
the UK and it is therefore highly probable that I have the same
map that the McCanns were using when they were in Portugal. Many
of these maps have small dark symbols that signify religious
buildings. There are none in the south of Portugal but there are
various in the North of the country. I think that the McCanns
looked at these symbols.

Unfortunately, these symbols do not refer to details about the
religious buildings. In order to establish that it would perhaps
be necessary to resort to Internet. It would be very difficult
for the McCanns to do this in Portugal using a rented computer
and with the police and media surrounding them. That is the
reason why I think the events between 21st May and 10 June are
very important.

21/22 May

Gerry McCann is in the UK. Could it be that Gerry McCann took
advantage of this opportunity, in the privacy of his home, to
search for appropriate places for the burial? I think this is
very probable given the attitudes of the McCanns after Gerry's
return to Portugal.


23 May (one day after Gerry's return to Portugal)

Gerry and Kate McCann travel to Fatima passing many areas of
Portugal on their way. I think that this trip was made so that
the McCanns could see for themselves the areas where some of the
religious buildings were found. Now the Alentejo/Portel chapel
is situated on a hill top, I don't know whether they managed to
see it during this trip to Fatima, but they could have seen the
area upon their return.

The location being decided, the McCanns spent the following days
planning how to transport Madeleine for burial in the Alentejo.

28 May

The McCanns rented the Renault Scenic even though they knew they
were going to Rome on the following day and would not use it.
They rented the Renault BEFORE leaving for Rome deliberately so
that someone could use it to transport Madeleine's body while
they were away. Why did they hire it precisely at this time?
Upon going to Rome the McCanns took the media of the whole world
with them, leaving the way free for someone to take Madeleine to
Alentejo.

29/30 May

The McCanns are in Rome with the Pope. What better place to be
while their daughter was buried?. While not being able to offer
a dignified funeral for Madeleine, the best thing to do would be
to obtain a blessing from the Pope himself. I believe firmly
that Madeleine McCann was buried whilst the McCanns were in
Rome.

3 June

I think it is said that the Renault had clocked up excessive
mileage. Alentejo/Portel is situated 160 km from Praia da Luz
which could explain this.


10 June

Gerry and Kate McCann leave Praia da Luz at the end of the
afternoon to go to Lisbon by car in order to catch a flight to
Morocco. For what reason did the McCanns travel by car to Lisbon
to catch the flight to Morocco when they could have flown from
Faro? Did they take advantage of this opportunity to visit
Madeleine's burial site? It is located at only 20 minutes by car
from Lisbon.

I went through this with detail. The Alentejo/Portel chapel is
not a place represented by one of the dark symbols but is very
close to one of them.

I checked all the chapels, churches and religious buildings in
the north of Portugal and the chapel I refer to is the most
obvious. There is no other unused religious building that could
be more suitable for the McCanns. If I were the McCanns, I would
have chosen the Portel chapel in Alentejo. It is a suitably
agreeable and remote place in order to facilitate the burial of
a body without being seen by anyone. It is perfect.

Don't just take my word. Have a look around and see if you can
find a better place.

Given that Maddie is probably buried inside a bag (as is
suggested by the laboratory examinations carried out on the car)
she could possibly be found with the use of a metal detector.

I hope that you communicate this message to the appropriate
persons. I sent elements about this building to the PJ in
Portimao but maybe the Lisbon officers are better placed to
proceed with these investigations.


OMG, Bebootje, I got chills reading this! I've had a long and busy day so apologies if I'm not 'on the ball' but I can't see any glaring holes in that. Indeed, I think it is THE single most convincing theory over MBM's burial I've read.
Bolded text: I like to believe that anything not in the released PJ files has not been released for a reason - ie it is incriminating and part of the prosecution evidence. After all, didn't Snr Amaral state he had enough evidence held back "to 'bury' the McCanns"? (Positive leakage or Freudian slip there with the 'bury' word, perhaps?) Let's hope so.

The theory also would explain why when meeting the Pope, on a sweltering day, the McCann's chose to wear black and her photo was blessed. Was this in lieu of being at M's burial? A sort of remote-distance proxy? Man of the cloth presiding over the burial long distance?

I don't have proper internet so I can't look round at other sites, but the timeline sure fits. What better day than when the world media follow you to another country???
It also sounds eerily similar to Kate's 'dream' location, and being an old chapel could explain the 'cold and mottled on a grey stone slab' comment in the book.

Yep, I believe this could be it. Does anyone know if this WAS ever investigated, if not why not?

____________________
"Ask the dogs, Sandra" - Gerry McCann to Sandra Felgueiras



Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

NORMAN MACDONALD, Maxims and Moral Reflections.
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I don't think so.

Post by tigger on 24.10.11 19:15

For a start, the whole thing is rather rushed. They were not individually invited by the Pope, but part of a rather large group who each got about 15 seconds with the pope. It's quite amusing to see the whole video clip of that.
I know this is a very detailed letter and it seems that the writer is absolutely genuine.
But consider how many of these suggestions must have rained down on the police. I'd be very surprised to find this was the only feasible one.
I'm also sure that they would have investigated. I do note it's page 106 of over 3000. Possibly the file for suggestions?
Now why people always think that places like the Rocha Negra, lonely hill top chapels and the like are safe places for depositing bodies - I don't know. Only one person will have to notice your car or yourself if you can see for miles, so can they.
As far as Madeleine being buried in a bag and she could be found with a metal detector? (what - fillings?) just proves my point. Far too dangerous, she must not and I think, never will be found.
A magnetometer might pinpoint a recently disturbed area of soil but so would a dog.

Interesting that probably the archbishop of N. Ireland, McCormack? arranged the meeting. All these happy mythical Irish relatives may have paid off.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Xavier on 24.10.11 19:54

Rainbow Fairy wrote: The theory also would explain why when meeting the Pope, on a sweltering day, the McCann's chose to wear black and her photo was blessed. Was this in lieu of being at M's burial? A sort of remote-distance proxy? Man of the cloth presiding over the burial long distance?


With respect, the reason that she wore black was not one of choice. It is the custom to wear black when meeting the pope. He will wear white.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 24.10.11 19:55

@tigger wrote:For a start, the whole thing is rather rushed. They were not individually invited by the Pope, but part of a rather large group who each got about 15 seconds with the pope. It's quite amusing to see the whole video clip of that.
I know this is a very detailed letter and it seems that the writer is absolutely genuine.
But consider how many of these suggestions must have rained down on the police. I'd be very surprised to find this was the only feasible one.
I'm also sure that they would have investigated. I do note it's page 106 of over 3000. Possibly the file for suggestions?
Now why people always think that places like the Rocha Negra, lonely hill top chapels and the like are safe places for depositing bodies - I don't know. Only one person will have to notice your car or yourself if you can see for miles, so can they.
As far as Madeleine being buried in a bag and she could be found with a metal detector? (what - fillings?) just proves my point. Far too dangerous, she must not and I think, never will be found.
A magnetometer might pinpoint a recently disturbed area of soil but so would a dog.

Interesting that probably the archbishop of N. Ireland, McCormack? arranged the meeting. All these happy mythical Irish relatives may have paid off.

Hey there tigger! Constructive criticism of the piece is good!
Regards the first bit, do you mean the timescale was rushed, or the Pope's meeting. Personally, I think as long as Maddie got blessed, K+G were happy.

I'm not sure at all about the location, but taking into account the dates it would be a perfect day, IMHO, for a body to be transported, no media watching - perfect.
Re the bag - I read it as possibly meaning the tennis bag, and a detector would pick up the zipper? Personally, I'm not at ALL convinced by this aspect. IF they HAD gone to the trouble of arranging this type of 'ceremony'N it seems odd in the least that they would bury her in a ratty old tennis bag. I believe she was maybe stored in it, but not interred in it.

____________________
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Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 24.10.11 20:46

@Xavier wrote:Rainbow Fairy wrote: The theory also would explain why when meeting the Pope, on a sweltering day, the McCann's chose to wear black and her photo was blessed. Was this in lieu of being at M's burial? A sort of remote-distance proxy? Man of the cloth presiding over the burial long distance?


With respect, the reason that she wore black was not one of choice. It is the custom to wear black when meeting the pope. He will wear white.
Xavier, thanks for that. I knew the Pope wears white, but I wasn't aware it was custom to wear black when meeting him publicly? I certainly don't recall seeing a sea of funereal-like figures, in fact I remember them standing out a lot.
Also, when the pontiff visited the UK I don't recall masses wearing black either? I would've noticed and recalled if they were, I'm sure.

____________________
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Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Nina on 24.10.11 20:52

So where could a body be hidden? A simple answer to that question. Where there are many bodies, in either a church buriel ground or one of the new nonspecific religion buriel grounds.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 24.10.11 20:56

@Xavier wrote:Rainbow Fairy wrote: The theory also would explain why when meeting the Pope, on a sweltering day, the McCann's chose to wear black and her photo was blessed. Was this in lieu of being at M's burial? A sort of remote-distance proxy? Man of the cloth presiding over the burial long distance?


With respect, the reason that she wore black was not one of choice. It is the custom to wear black when meeting the pope. He will wear white.
Xavier, thanks for that. I knew the Pope wears white, but I wasn't aware it was custom to wear black when meeting him publicly? I certainly don't recall seeing a sea of funereal-like figures, in fact I remember them standing out a lot.
Also, when the pontiff visited the UK I don't recall masses wearing black either? I would've noticed and recalled if they were, I'm sure.

____________________
"Ask the dogs, Sandra" - Gerry McCann to Sandra Felgueiras



Truth is artless and innocent - like the eloquence of nature, it is clothed with simplicity and easy persuasion; always open to investigation and analysis, it seeks exposure because it fears not detection.

NORMAN MACDONALD, Maxims and Moral Reflections.
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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Xavier on 24.10.11 22:09

@rainbow-fairy wrote:
@Xavier wrote:Rainbow Fairy wrote: The theory also would explain why when meeting the Pope, on a sweltering day, the McCann's chose to wear black and her photo was blessed. Was this in lieu of being at M's burial? A sort of remote-distance proxy? Man of the cloth presiding over the burial long distance?


With respect, the reason that she wore black was not one of choice. It is the custom to wear black when meeting the pope. He will wear white.
Xavier, thanks for that. I knew the Pope wears white, but I wasn't aware it was custom to wear black when meeting him publicly? I certainly don't recall seeing a sea of funereal-like figures, in fact I remember them standing out a lot.
Also, when the pontiff visited the UK I don't recall masses wearing black either? I would've noticed and recalled if they were, I'm sure.

A pleasure. Not suggesting the overall theory is flawed, by the way - just some of conclusions may need a bit of tweaking. On the pope question, I think you need to distinuish between those who have an audience with the pope - the kneeling and ring kissing bit - and those who show up to see him where as far as I know there is no specific dress code.

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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Guest on 24.10.11 22:21

@rainbow-fairy wrote: .... but I wasn't aware it was custom to wear black when meeting him publicly? I certainly don't recall seeing a sea of funereal-like figures, in fact I remember them standing out a lot.
Also, when the pontiff visited the UK I don't recall masses wearing black either? I would've noticed and recalled if they were, I'm sure.

I areee, Rainbow Fairy. Besides with the lengths Katie goes to explain their choice of attire and acquisition of same it has to mean she's covering up for something.

Bebootje, a very interesting & thought provoking post. Makes you wonder.
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Re: Where would a body be hidden?

Post by Bebootje on 25.10.11 0:05

@tigger wrote:For a start, the whole thing is rather rushed. They were not individually invited by the Pope, but part of a rather large group who each got about 15 seconds with the pope. It's quite amusing to see the whole video clip of that.
I know this is a very detailed letter and it seems that the writer is absolutely genuine.
But consider how many of these suggestions must have rained down on the police. I'd be very surprised to find this was the only feasible one.
I'm also sure that they would have investigated. I do note it's page 106 of over 3000. Possibly the file for suggestions?
Now why people always think that places like the Rocha Negra, lonely hill top chapels and the like are safe places for depositing bodies - I don't know. Only one person will have to notice your car or yourself if you can see for miles, so can they.
As far as Madeleine being buried in a bag and she could be found with a metal detector? (what - fillings?) just proves my point. Far too dangerous, she must not and I think, never will be found.
A magnetometer might pinpoint a recently disturbed area of soil but so would a dog.

Interesting that probably the archbishop of N. Ireland, McCormack? arranged the meeting. All these happy mythical Irish relatives may have paid off.

Appearently Interpol decided it was feasible enough to pass on to the PJ. They asked back for results, but the results aren't in the files. This message came in at Interpol in May 2008. The arguido status of the McCanns was lifted in july 2008. It could wel be, that nothing was done with this information. Amaral was since long off the case. Sometimes I tend to believe that not only the McCanns know where Madeleine is, at least the Portuguese know or suspect the whereabouts. End 2007 we all thought that the case was solved (or nearly solved) Then.... nothing. Not even a neglect charge.

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