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Sofa + accident = death, really?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 24.05.13 23:00

@Woofer wrote:Tigger wrote- "We did get a clue from Gordon though, he said it was a matter of national security. "

Well then, what sort of issues could endanger our nation`s security?

My mind has gone blank - all I can think of is Russian spies and the Profumo Affair !

And we`ll know if the right answer is posted, cos the site will get closed down !
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Then it's best I stay schtumm & don't say what I've been thinking for quite while ....
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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Curioser on 25.05.13 2:20

@tigger wrote:
@Curioser wrote:
@Curioser wrote:

Hi Spaniel, obviously something really horrible has gone on in here but I've only seen vague allusions to it. I noticed one of his posts and thought it was spot on, which would make him a target of course. What happened to TB? Is there a thread I can read about it?

Nevermind, I looked it up. Wow. Just Wow. Seriously dangerous people involved in this whole thing.

So it seems to me in my ignorance that the main reason the establishment would be covering up now (if they are of course) would be because it would be so embarrassing for Gordon Brown and Tony Blair et al to admit they were completely duped and that they allowed themselves to be fooled so easily (if they were of course).

Not to mention the Pope. And he's supposed to be infallible. The local priest wasn't fooled though going by his interviews but it wouldn't do for such a small cog to prove the flywheels wrong.

It seems it's been in the interest of three successive governments to cover up and continue to do so.
Therefore it's not likely that the reason is to spare the blushes of the sainted Blair and Gordon for one. The 'help' provided was unprecedented.
We did get a clue from Gordon though, he said it was a matter of national security.

You know what? It's absolutely the only thing Brown ever said that I believe to be true.

I'm just guessing as anything I know about politics I learnt from Borgen, would making it known that the PM can be so easily fooled (if he was) be sufficiently embarrassing that it would lead to a national security crisis? I mean that it would make the country look bad rather than the individuals involved.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Curioser on 25.05.13 2:25

Châtelaine wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Tigger wrote- "We did get a clue from Gordon though, he said it was a matter of national security. "

Well then, what sort of issues could endanger our nation`s security?

My mind has gone blank - all I can think of is Russian spies and the Profumo Affair !

And we`ll know if the right answer is posted, cos the site will get closed down !
***
Then it's best I stay schtumm & don't say what I've been thinking for quite while ....

It's come to a pretty pass if the populace have to be scared of having opinions but I understand completely that, in my opinion, this seems to be no ordinary case. PM me? or email? Make a 10MinuteMail and use someone else's computer lol?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by plebgate on 25.05.13 6:49

Most people have lap tops, more than one per household, or phones they can post from. Easy to get rid of although I feel that most posters on here have integrity and would not post anything which might get the site closed down.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Curioser on 25.05.13 10:31

@plebgate wrote:Most people have lap tops, more than one per household, or phones they can post from. Easy to get rid of although I feel that most posters on here have integrity and would not post anything which might get the site closed down.

Unless you are not sure what that is...

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by plebgate on 25.05.13 13:45

I have known a few posters contact admin on different sites before posting anything they feel might not be acceptable, so that is a way around it.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Curioser on 26.05.13 6:50

@plebgate wrote:I have known a few posters contact admin on different sites before posting anything they feel might not be acceptable, so that is a way around it.

OK will do, thanks.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Estelle on 22.10.13 12:32

Guest wrote:I find this post interesting for us to look at. My comments are in bold. 


I think Madeleine did not die in apartment 5a.

I am open to both ideas - apartment 5A or somewhere else such as Burgau os some other villa. 

I think her body was obviously taken back there at some point, as confirmed by Eddie

I think most would agree with that. 

and some bright spark thought up two plans, to cover all eventualities.

Plan A, the abduction story.

Plan B, accidental death behind the sofa.

If plan A failed, plan B would automatically come into force, which is the direction the PJ went in.

Accidental death due to neglect was always going to be their last lifeboat and the reason why we have had to endure so much talk of neglect. They need to hang onto this card at all costs and this might explain why this topic took such a hit in the beginning.

As I believe this case has three layers, I think Plan C occurred, they then told people whose support they needed to cover up that it was an accident so that was Plan B and they wanted the public to believe in the abduction Plan A to get sympathy and money for the fund for years knowing Maddie would never come back.    

Someone needs to track Madeleine's movements from the very minute she arrived at OC and what she did for the rest of that day.

Her nanny allegedly only saw her for the first time the next morning, when she arrived at creche. Did she really see Madeleine McCann, or was she presented with the substitute?

Because of the creche records, and the forged signature, I believe that Maddie never attended the creche.  

After they all dined at the Millennium on the evening of the 28th, what happened in the hours that followed? Did someone offer to look after all the children, to allow them to go out for drinks?

Yes I think that all the children were in the one villa with one adult looking after them while the parents went out but they may have taken Maddie with them to a party at another villa.  

Could this have been the pushy man who made the block booking the following morning?

Who was this? RN with the substitute child or MO or RO?

Why was the person who was feeling ill that night, the same person, the only person who offered to check on the McCann children on the 3rd?

IMO that person could have been RO or MO.

These are potentially the two most important nights of that holiday and Matt Oldfield was the odd one out on both occasions.

April 28 and May 3?

Is that just a coincidence?

I don't know. 

Is this the real reason why some of them ended up with 2 beds, when they only booked 1 bed?

What is the poster implying here?

What more was Fiona trying to tell us before stopping herself?

I don't know. 
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Head injuries kill

Post by PeterMac on 24.05.14 15:35

Very sad.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638184/Schoolgirl-12-dies-falling-wall-hitting-head-watching-game-football-youth-club.html
Schoolgirl, 12, dies after falling from a wall and hitting her head while watching a game of football at a youth club
Nicole Hartup was watching a football match at Phoenix Youth Club in Exeter
The year-seven pupil tried to get up after she fell, but collapsed again
Tributes have been posted on Facebook and a memorial has been organised
Police are investigating the circumstances surrounding the tragedy


A 12-year-old girl has died after falling from a wall and hitting her head at a youth centre.
Nicole Hartup was watching a football match when she tragically fell at the Phoenix Youth Club in Exeter last night.
The schoolgirl, who was a year-seven pupil at the Isca College of Media Arts in Exeter, tried to get up but collapsed.
Nicole Hartrup, 12, died after she fell from a wall while watching a game of football at a youth club in Exeter
She was taken the Royal Devon and Exeter Hospital, but died a short time later.
Even with intensive care people die from head injuries.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by ultimaThule on 24.05.14 16:37

Nicole Hartup's accidental death is a tragedy for all concerned, PeterMac, and my heart goes out to her family.

Our bodies are less robust than we may believe them to be and many can tesify that one punch can kill.

In a case of death caused by acccidental injury there would be no need for any parent to fear the outcome of a post-mortem, but the same cannot be said if death had occurred due to non-accidental injury and, more particularly, if it was probable that an autopsy would reveal past abuse of a similar nature.



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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by PeterMac on 24.05.14 16:44

@ultimaThule wrote:
In a case of death caused by acccidental injury there would be no need for any parent to fear the outcome of a post-mortem, but the same cannot be said if death had occurred due to non-accidental injury and, more particularly, if it was probable that an autopsy would reveal past abuse of a similar nature.    

OR the death was accidental, but the body was not discovered for so long that it was obvious that the children had been badly neglected.
To spell it out, found the following morning down the back of the sofa, cold and stiff, having not even been checked when they each went to bed.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by canada12 on 24.05.14 17:56

@PeterMac wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
In a case of death caused by acccidental injury there would be no need for any parent to fear the outcome of a post-mortem, but the same cannot be said if death had occurred due to non-accidental injury and, more particularly, if it was probable that an autopsy would reveal past abuse of a similar nature.    

OR the death was accidental, but the body was not discovered for so long that it was obvious that the children had been badly neglected.
To spell it out, found the following morning down the back of the sofa, cold and stiff, having not even been checked when they each went to bed.

PM, this scenario never even occurred to me. I considered an accidental death such as what you've described... but always thought her body would be discovered within hours, upon coming home for the night. That the parents might have gone to bed without checking on the children is something that I hadn't thought of. But I think it could be entirely possible if, perhaps, the parents were too drunk or otherwise incapacitated, and literally just fell into bed... or the parents were out all night (another scenario which might have to be considered) and didn't discover the body until the following morning because they were never there, period. IMO.

Can I ask, PM, if you know whether this scenario is something that's being considered by SY and / or PJ?

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jack dexter on 24.05.14 19:27

Hi
long time lurker here but felt the need to finally join in.

What i thought was interesting here is that as we know the Macs say everything for a reason. What was the night kate claimed to have slept in the kids room after a tiff. Does this tie in with this scenario.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by missmar1 on 24.05.14 19:57

Imo, I suppose its possible, due to over indulgence, the Mccanns may not have made that last "check" on the children before going to bed and therefore would not have known that Madeleine lay injured/dead behind the sofa.  Imo,the horror of finding her there the following morning may have triggered a decision to stage an abduction because they couldn't bear to think that they would lose everything if the truth got out.

It is not beyond the realms of what may have happened because desperate circumstances call for desperate measures and even the most unthinkable acts have been committed when people are put under duress to come up with answers to explain away what really took place.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 24.05.14 20:01

@jack dexter wrote:Hi
long time lurker here but felt the need to finally join in.

What i thought was interesting here is that as we know the Macs say everything for a reason. What was the night kate claimed to have slept in the kids room after a tiff. Does this tie in with this scenario.

Welcome jack dexter. 
They slept apart, according to K, on Wednesday, 2nd May, the first time ever in their marriage.
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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jack dexter on 24.05.14 20:05

So as she slept with the children in their room there was no chance of her not checking on the children that night.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by aiyoyo on 24.05.14 20:07

@PeterMac wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
In a case of death caused by acccidental injury there would be no need for any parent to fear the outcome of a post-mortem, but the same cannot be said if death had occurred due to non-accidental injury and, more particularly, if it was probable that an autopsy would reveal past abuse of a similar nature.    

OR the death was accidental, but the body was not discovered for so long that it was obvious that the children had been badly neglected.
To spell it out, found the following morning down the back of the sofa, cold and stiff, having not even been checked when they each went to bed.

I'm more inclined to ultima's version for reason to avoid autopsy than Peter's version.
Omitting to check on one's child is not punishable by law.  
A self-inflicted accidental death is not difficult to explain away. They could say they'd not realised she'd woken and fallen (which would be true); they could conceal from the medics where they found her and that they were not in when she fell. Failing to discover her in useful time in itself is not a crime unless there's reason to doubt the parents' words resulting in an inquest  no one is going to turn up to counter Mccann's version.  It would not be in anyone's interest to counter the parents on a child's accidental death not under any suspicious circumstances.

Hospital will not query their version of account unless autopsy result gives reason for that.  
Injuries from accidental fall itself does not arouse suspicious if the parents appear credible and autopsy supports a self caused accidental death; unless old injuries from past abuse were evidenced on the body or evidence of fresh injury showing she'd been whacked or slapped that cause the fall, then that will cause the medics to report the case to the Police.

It makes no sense for the Mccanns and friends to go through this elaborated fuss to hide an innocent accidental fall albeit not discovered in useful time, if it is not for something that cannot withstand scrutiny of postmortem.  

Even if the group failed in their attempt to resuscitate her there's still no reason not to send her to the hospital and explain away.  It's quite reasonable to expect that a bunch of doctors would attempt resuscitation while waiting for ambulance.  Failed resuscitation is explanable since resuscitation can and does fail even in hospital environment.
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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by missmar1 on 24.05.14 20:19

hello aiyoyo,


Yes I can see your well put points,  If it had happened that way and it had been a genuine accident,  - then it would seem, imo, there would have to be a good reason why the parents wouldn't want the authorities to see their little girl's body.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by jack dexter on 24.05.14 20:24

They talk so much about the night of the 2nd. Its as though they are trying to make it all sound normal. crying tiffs and questions.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Bishop Brennan on 25.05.14 5:41

Well reasoned for sure. I wonder if BOTH could form part of the answer? Could it be that she awoke while the parents were out, AND that she had been drugged in some way. Under this scenario, she might wake - confused and dizzy. Climb up on the sofa, fall off it cracking her head. Parents return, forget to check, and find her in the morning. An accident for sure, but autopsy remains a problem due to the drugs from last night - and so after a lot of crying and anguish a decision is made...
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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by aiyoyo on 25.05.14 6:35

Even factoring in calpol, it is still possible to explain away the accident, as people do give their children medicine with a valid reason.  They could still send her to hospital, not reveal they were absent when the accident happened and where they found her.  The medics would have no reason to doubt them.  
Even if traces of calpol showed up in the autopsy, so long as their made up reason for giving it to her is accepted by medics, they would have pulled it off.   If there is no cause for suspicions, hospital will not inform police.  It's only when police become involved that people are interviewed then their story risks scrutiny.  If they can make it appear credible for hospital to believe she fell, they discovered her too late, and autopsy shows nothing untoward that isn't consistent with a self caused fall then they would have got away with it.

It must be more than calpol and late discovery for not sending her to the hospital, because sending her to hospital although entail telling some lies to medics is a lot less complicated than having to dispose, cover up, stage the scene, charade, tell big porkie pies to police and media, family and friends, work place etc, and still risk fear of being found out, arrest and prosecution.  

Between the two devils the lesser one is preferable you'd have thought if apart from fall and calpol there is no reason to hide her from autopsy.  
I don't believe they were that stupid to believe hiding her to prevent neglect charge is preferable to taking her to hospital and no one will know she'd been neglected as Police not involved.

I never believe fear of neglect charge was their reason for the cover up because if Maddie died earlier than the 3rd there wouldn't be any need to keep up the routine of leaving the children alone, especially not after they'd sent Maddie to the hospital, they would have a good reason to cancel Tapas reservation.  The neglect on the 3rd was just to give them alibi for abduction.

We are talking about a bunch of highly educated professionals well able to think and assess before actions.
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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by PeterMac on 25.05.14 6:58

@jack dexter wrote:So as she slept with the children in their room there was no chance of her not checking on the children that night.

why ?
Comes home, cross with G, doesn't put the light on in the bedroom so as not to disturb the children - remember that she was not even going to to look into the room in case she disturbed them -
chucks herself onto the bed and goes to sleep.
G comes home and does the same in the other room.

Even when she did do the check (allegedly) she couldn't make out if it was bedclothes or Madeleine.

Yet again she has said too much in Exhibit KH 1. She has given us al the details we need to make sense of it.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Bishop Brennan on 25.05.14 7:29

@aiyoyo wrote:
It must be more than calpol and late discovery for not sending her to the hospital, because sending her to hospital although entail telling some lies to medics is a lot less complicated than having to dispose, cover up, stage the scene, charade, tell big porkie pies to police and media, family and friends, work place etc, and still risk fear of being found out, arrest and prosecution.  

I think you are right - if the McCanns administered something to their kids, then it was something much stronger than Calpol. If they discovered her on the morning of the 3rd behind the sofa and were worried about an autopsy, then it must have been prescription-level drugs and probably given to all 3. If unauthorised prescription drugs had been given, and they indirectly (or directly) led to Maddie's death, then the parents were looking at a manslaughter charge at the very least. Not to mention loss of their medical licence and potentially the removal of the twins into care. Certainly motivation enough to consider an alternative path...

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by aiyoyo on 25.05.14 8:41

Actually I'm not even sure that I believe she died from having fallen behind the sofa.

The accident could have happened in the bedroom where Maddie slept that night maybe in her parents room. She could have been caught in the violent quarrel of her parents on the 2nd and accidentally ended up with a fatal blow not intended for her.

It could be that her drunkard (perhaps one of them high as kite as well) parents lost control during the quarrel, where one strike out at the other one, not realising Maddie had woken up because of their commotion, rushed towards them and in the flow of the moments their blows meant for the other partner landed on her.
An adult lash out can be forceful and often fatal for a child. Both her parents appear to be fiery temper people and she was caught in an unfortunate situation. The other possibility is they saw her, ordered her to go back to bed, she refused and was struck.

Bruises on Kate's arms was inflicted by forceful restraint.
Something must have happened to cause Gerry to restrain her by force.
IMO Maddie fallen behind a sofa and not noticed in useful time would not cause the fury and forceful restraint. The restraint must have occurred at the time Maddie met her accident when both parents blood were still boiling. Maybe angry Kate lashed out at Gerry (he left the dinning group early remember without waiting for her, underlying issue) was met by Gerry trying to restrain or retaliate and somehow in the midst of this heated violent fighting Maddie met her fate.

If she'd fallen from the forceful strike of a whack, severely injured / concussed, and died as a consequence, that would be reason to hide her from autopsy. Drunkard fighting doctors using violence that caused the death of their first born albeit inadvertently would hit the front page news as well as give good reason for social service to take away the twins. That would be plausible reason to cover up.

She was then moved to sofa area for friends to attend/resuscitate her, failed, placed into blue bag and all the rest that follows were premeditated cover up involving the group.

Just my theory that will explain their need to cover up, and reason friends agreed to the cover up, not out of fear of neglect charge, but out of sympathy for Mccanns. Legally or morally correct? NOPE!
But sometimes friends can be helpful in that way knowing it was a tragic accident, thinking it's pointless to turn them to Police, as it won't bring Madeleine back.

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Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 25.05.14 8:46

I think the accident during the night scenario as described by PM is possible, except that KM strikes me as someone who would be more than just a little cross with GM and unlikely to go meekly to bed on her own, and not have any further "discussion" on the subject.


an alternative hypothetical scenario:

?post-natal depression/psychosis.
untreated or self medicated
after the birth of first child
failure to bond, difficulty in coping, lots of family and outside help, put in a creche as often as possible
recurrence of depression after birth of next pregnancy, (possibly worse if twin)
not treated, self medicated
loss of professional status,
resentful of children and husband
first week away with 3 children together without help/support,
husband reluctant to do his share
children still in creche every day,  little bonding,
possibly drugged at night
selfish unsupportive husband
excessive  alcohol
womaniser husband
isolation
body dysmorphia
extreme jealousy
child wakes up but mother wants to go and check on husband and his new best friend
mother now very angry, rage

possibly an explosive situation
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