The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hello!

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™️ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann. Please note that your username should be different from your email address!

When posting please be mindful that this forum is primarily about the death of a three year old girl.

(Please note: if you register with the sole intention of disrupting or spamming, please don't expect to be a member for too long.)

Many thanks,

Jill Havern
Forum owner

Sofa + accident = death, really?

Page 2 of 16 Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9 ... 16  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by littlepixie on 13.10.11 16:35

It would be interesting to know whether a cut or other injury would still bleed when the heart has stopped beating. Or whether blood leaks after death. I suppose if a body was placed behind the sofa that was not wrapped and hadn't been cleaned it could leave blood there, but would it be enough blood to seep into grout?

Because of the spatters on the wall at the opposite end, I have never thought it was an accident.
avatar
littlepixie

Posts : 1340
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2009-11-29

Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 13.10.11 16:46

Bebootje, just to let you know I have been looking for the results of the stains on the back of the sofa and curtain, but I'm having trouble finding them. I will have a better look in the morning, as I'm about to depart for the evening.
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

GA knows a lot more than we do.

Post by tigger on 13.10.11 16:48

agent0060 wrote:Goncalol said Madeleine McCann died from accidentally falling behind the sofa in the living room of the apartment. That couch had been moved when the alarm over the alleged disappearance was raised. I think that someone discovered the body, concealed it, cleaned everything up and pushed the sofa to the window." Why are you changing what he said? You are rubbishing his thesis. Why?


I understand your argument, but consider this: a lot of information was not available to the PJ. e.g. the Gaspar statement, the CAT file on Gerry, the health records of Maddie, the credit card records of the McCanns, etc.
By the time the PJ were ready to charge the McCanns, they had the DNA evidence, the blood results and a lot of circumstantial evidence. I expect they cut their losses and went for what they could get. What would it profit them to take the McCanns to court for murder? No proof.
Amaral doesn't have the luxury to debate further than this in public. The McCanns had never in their wildest dreams expected to be charged with anything at all. In no time the DNA results were rubbished, GB got Socrates to sack Amaral and all should have gone quiet.

I think it was premeditated, perhaps for up to a year, the McCann clan closed ranks, people who must have cursed the McCanns were saving their own skins by protecting them and it's been a damage limitation exercise all the way.

There was a spray of blood on the wall and the curtains, a live body which became a dead body which was then moved to the cupboard, the flowerbed and then a fridge/freezer. IMO no accident will produce a spray of blood, pressure on a throat will. But that cannot be proved without a body.
By now all should have died down. A lot of the public are no longer interested, certainly not in the fate of Snr. G. Amaral.


Except there's us, and Amaral's court case, and a dead little girl. We're not giving up.

____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.
avatar
tigger

Posts : 8114
Reputation : 47
Join date : 2011-07-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 13.10.11 17:33

Stella wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:I agree with your points Stella and Bebootje. There is just too much room for doubt and alternative scenarios with what we have seen from the portion of the PJ files that were released. All these weird aspects should have been hammered out in the first 48-72 hrs. They had the time to be interviewed because they were not out searching, unlike every other person in PDL.
That's right SaM, they should have all been hauled in within hours of the alarm being raised. But think of the manpower that would have been needed to question the original circle of 9 all at the exact same time, plus everyone in the Tapas bar that night.


Yes, and the OC staff etc all [email=f@rt]f@rt[/email] @rsing about the scene. Couple that with alcohol and the language barrier. Plus the concoction of the timeline, which in itself negated the validity of any further witness statements regarding the timing of events as they were not independent. About 20 adults inc staff and other diners, various Tapasnik offspring requiring peoples time and attention, the police never really stood a chance amongst all that chaos. As the police were not called for at least 40 mins, an "abductor" could have been simply miles away by then, no, the whole thing was ridiculous. That's why it is so infuriating when the McCanns have implied that the police should have made after the "abductor" and caught him within minutes, as if there were none of the obstacles in place.



To summarise, on the night of the 3rd from exactly 10pm there were the following impossible obstacles to surmount as far as the police were concerned:

1) A 40 min headstart by "abductor" before police called

2) 9 possibly inebriated individuals plus accomanying offspring trampling over the scene

3) OC staff, potentially panicking

4) Language barrier

5) Timeline drawn up TWICE, negating possibility of independent witness statements

6) Incorrect info, ie shutters smashed when clearly not

7) Insistence that the least likely scenario had occurred (stranger abduction) versus woke and wander (most

likely)

8) Unaware of what JT "allegedly" saw at that first moment

9) Time of day - darkness, hindering search

There are probably many more, as only about a third of the files have been released.

Group holidays are such a rubbish idea anyway, too many people sticking their oar in. That fact, that there were so many Tapasniks hanging around that night, was the worst factor for the police IMO.

____________________
The truth will out.
avatar
Smokeandmirrors
Moderator

Posts : 2428
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2011-07-31

Back to top Go down

some thoughts

Post by russiandoll on 13.10.11 19:51

I had to smile at the part of Kates book where she describes the difficulty or organising/ attending initial police interviews.the kids needed looking after ! didnt occur to any of the tapas crowd to ask the creche to help out with some [extra] childcare in the dreadful circumstances. A damned shame the pair of them at least were not interviewed simulataneously and separately.

Stella....I am not finished reading yet......did sr amaral not have access to the creche files before being removed? i would have thought they'd have been asked for as a matter of urgency. or maybe I am misunderstanding something.

A poster believes like me that a change in routine is significant.....and 30th was a very strange day.
I also tend to sit up and take notice when Kate omits or over eggs things........I am convinced that her anger with Gerry was downplayed in her book....a storm in a teacup ; it is from the horses mouth that we hear she feels fury at times...so if truly hurt and/or angry she would let rip I think...at the very least give Gezza her tuppence worth.

I have wondered if maybe Maddie woke when they were arguing and inadvertently got caught up in a domestic. It is very common for children who witness loud chaotic situations to behave in a loud and chaotic fashion becoming dreadfully distressed, and maybe there was an episode that got out of control, maybe she was accidentally hurt when one parent tried to strike the other. Maybe they were simply too busy arguing to hear her get up and fall......she did return to the apartment after Gerry and I dont buy her story of going straight to bed in the kids room, its a reall possibility imo she woke him for a row and that there was a drama. Are there any witnesses who stated they heard a row at any time? This was 2 May and the night after the one when Gerry was too attentive to the young woman incharge of the quiz...so he upet her twice it would appear.
I am simply open to all possibilities, as doubtless the PJ were.

I did wonder in my more positive days if maybe they had planned a fund and arranged an abduction by persons known as she was going to go somewhere for much needed but controversial and not yet sanctioned medical treatment as beautiful as she was, her face looked weird and tlopsided at times. That though does not explain what the dogs found.
avatar
russiandoll

Posts : 3942
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2011-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 14.10.11 8:20

russiandoll wrote: Stella....I am not finished reading yet......did sr amaral not have access to the creche files before being removed? i would have thought they'd have been asked for as a matter of urgency. or maybe I am misunderstanding something.
Yes russiandoll, Goncalo did have access to the creche records virtually from day one. But I think whoever in his team was tasked with their inspection, must have just glossed over them. It is all to easy to concentrate on the timings, when a child is signed in and out and compare that with the McCann's movements. But you had to go much, much further than that and study them at such a large magnification, the handwriting for every child's entry. It's only when you blow the writing up, the distinctive little tick at the bottom of the letter A stands out. I think they were so focused with what happened in the apartment, they may have thought the creche sheets were not important enough to study them forensically. The bottom line is and I'm sorry to say this, if they had spotted this as being even slightly significant in the investigation, they would not have been released in the files for everyone to see.

SmokeandMirrors. Yes, as you have listed, the PJ were up against the wall with this one. Where could they have found 20 interrogating translators from within minutes?

Perhaps some mastermind envisaged all this? It's the perfect scene to commit the perfect crime. Think about all the other apartments and villas there was. Clean laundry on demand. People who were residents there, who knew the area well. Think Casa Pia, think opportunities !!!
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 14.10.11 8:57


Is this a picture pointing to a specific area under a tile, where blood was found?
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 14.10.11 9:00


This picture has always intrigued me. Why number up the left hand wall, unless they were of some importance? Yet, as far as we know, they all came back as not blood spots !! So what were they?
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Bebootje on 14.10.11 9:26

They just number up all spots where they found a stain to be tested in the lab. The lab results show which substance belongs to which stain I suppose. That is the only reason why they are marked. Could be tea, coffee, wine, food, etc.

Bebootje

Posts : 86
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-07-06

Back to top Go down

Lab results

Post by Bebootje on 14.10.11 9:33

Officer in case: D/Supt PRIOR

Customer: New Parks Police
Station,
Leicestershire Constabulary
Police reference: Operation Task

Laboratory reference: 300 655
190
Order reference: 400 932 184
Scientist: JOHN ROBERT LOWE

Number of pages: 6

Re: the abduction of Madeleine
McCann

This report summarises the
results of DNA profiling tests conducted on a number of samples
submitted to the Birmingham laboratory of the Forensic Science
Service(R) from the Leicestershire Constabulary on behalf of the
Pol - ia Judiciaria and Laboratorio De Policia Cientifica on 7th
August 2007 This report is marked for the attention of Detective
Superintendent Prior; however I understand and accept that the
contents of this report will be shared with the necessary
authorities in Portugal.

I have received from my
colleague, Sarah Vraitch, copies of the reference DNA profiles
of Gerald McCann (CB/1), Kate Healy (CB/2), Amelie McCann
(SBM/2) and Sean McCann (SBM/3). I have also received a copy of
the DNA profile obtained from the possible saliva staining on
the pillow case (SJM/1) which is assumed to be the DNA profile
of Madeleine McCann.

A weak incomplete DNA result
which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components was
obtained from cellular material on the swab (3A) from the
apartment floor. An attempt to obtain a DNA profile from any
cellular material on the wet swab (3B) from the same area was
unsuccessful in that no profile was obtained.

Weak and incomplete DNA results
which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components were
obtained from cellular material on the wet and dry swabs (14A &
B} from the back of the sofa.

A weak and incomplete DNA result
which showed indications of having originated from more than one
person was obtained from cellular material on the dry swab (15A)
from the back of the sofa.

A DNA result which appeared to
have originated from at least three people and which appeared to
have originated from at least two males who had contributed the
majority of the DNA was obtained from cellular material obtained
from the wet swab of the sofa (15B). in my opinion there is no
evidence to support the view that Gerald McCann or Madeline
McCann contributed DNA to this result. The DNA from this swab
has not been subjected to LCN DNA profiling tests.

A weak incomplete DNA result
which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components was
obtained from cellular material recovered from the edges of tile
2 286/2007-CRL(2) from the apartment floor. An attempt to obtain
a DNA profile from any cellular material recovered from a
further area on tile 2 and two areas on tile 3 (286/2007-CRL(3)
were unsuccessful in that no profiles were obtained.

A weak incomplete DNA result
which consisted of only two unconfirmed DNA components was
obtained from cellular material recovered from the hem of one of
the blue curtains 286A/2007-CRL(16(2)) from the apartment.

An attempt to obtain a DNA
profile from any cellular material recovered from one area of
the plastic luggage component (286C/2007-CRL(10(2))) from the
motor vehicle was unsuccessful in that no DNA profiles were
obtained.

A low level mixed DNA result
which appeared to have originated from at least two people was
obtained from a second area of the plastic luggage component
(286C/2007-CRL(10(2))) from the motor vehicle. In my opinion
this result is too complex to interpret at this stage.

A low level mixed DNA result
which appeared to have originated from at least three people was
obtained from cellular material recovered from the fibre coated
luggage component (286C/2007-CRL(10(1))) from the motor vehicle.
In my opinion this result is too complex to interpret at this
stage.

A low level incomplete DNA
profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA
profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on
the key card (286C/2007-CRL(12)). This sample has not been sent
for further testing using LCN DNA profiling tests.

Low level incomplete DNA
results, which in certain circumstances showed a contribution of
DNA from more than one person were obtained from biological
material on the following swabs: 286A/2007 CRL 14a, 14b, 15a;
the swab from the hem of the curtain 286A/2007 CRL 16 curtain 2;
the swabs from the tile pieces 286/2007 CRL 2 areas 1 and 2 and
3 area 1. In my opinion there is no evidence to support the view
that anyone from the McCann family contributed their DNA to them
results.

An attempt to obtain an LCN DNA
result from any cellular material on the swab from area one of
the luggage compartment section (286C/2007 CRL 10) was
unsuccesful in that no profile was obtained.

An incomplete LCN DNA result
which appeared to have originated from a male was obtained from
cellular material from the swab (286A/2007 CRL 1a & b). The
profile did not match any of those previously tested in this
case.

An incomplete LCN DNA result
which appeared to have originated from a female was obtained
from cellular material from the swab (286A/2007 CRL 4a & b). The
profile did not match any of those previously tested in this
case.

An incomplete LCN DNA result
which appeared to have originated from a male was obtained from
cellular material from the swab (286A12007 CRL 9a & b). The
profile did not match any of those previously tested in this
case. Furthermore, it did not match the profile obtained from
the swab, 286A/2007 CRL 1a & b.

Mixed LCN DNA results which
appeared to have originated from at least two people were
obtained from cellular material recovered from the swabs
(286A/2007 CRL 2a & b, 5a 7 b, 7a & b, 10a & b and 12a & b). in
my opinion there is not evidence to support the view that any of
the McCann family contributed DNA to Yhis result.

Attempts to obtain an LCN DNA
result from any cellular material on the swabs 286A/2007 CRL 11a
& b & 13a & b and from tile pieces 286/2007 CRL 3 area 2 were
unsuccessful in that no DNA profiles were obtained; possibly due
to the absence of sufficient good quality DNA.

LCN DNA results which contained
too little information for meaningful interpretation were
obtained from cellular material on the swabs 286A/2007 CRL 6a &
b and 8a & b).
LCN DNA results which appeared
to have originated from at least three people and which were too
complex for meaningful interpretation were obtained from
cellular material recovered from the swabs taken from the tiles
286/2007 CRL 1, 6, 7,8, 10 & 11).

An attempt to obtain an LCN DNA
result from any cellular material on the swabs from the tiles
286/2007 CR/L 5 stains 1, 2 & 3 were unsuccessful in that no DNA
profile was obtained.

An LCN DNA result which
contained to little information for meaningful interpretation
was obtained from cellular material on the swab from the tile
(286/2007 CR/L 9).

Low level LCN DNA results were
obtained from cellular material on the swabs from the tiles
(286/2007 CR/L 4 & 12). In my opinion there is no evidence to
support the view that anyone in the McCann Family contributed
DNA to these results.

An incomplete DNA result was
obtained from cellular material on the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3a).
The swab contained very little information and showed low level
indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of
the confirmed DNA components within this result match the
corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann.
LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive; it is not possible
attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

A low level LCN DNA result was
obtained from cellular material on the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3b).
In my opinion there is no evidence to support the view that
Madeleine McCann contributed DNA to this result.

A complex LCN DNA result which
appeared to have originated from at least three people was
obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage
compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. In my opinion
this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation.

The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L
16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1)
and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for
the presence of blood. No blood was found.

The small fragments of tile, and
bags of dust and cement glue (286/2007 CR/L 13, 14, 15, 16, 17,
18, 19 & 20) were not examined at the laboratory.

if I can be of further
assistance please do not hesitate to contact me at the
laboratory.
Yours sincerely,
JOHN ROBERT LOWE BSc CBiol
NliBiol RFP
Date: 6 September 2007



Processos Vol X Pages 2659 - 2660

Bebootje

Posts : 86
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-07-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 14.10.11 9:49

Bebootje wrote:They just number up all spots where they found a stain to be tested in the lab. The lab results show which substance belongs to which stain I suppose. That is the only reason why they are marked. Could be tea, coffee, wine, food, etc.
But surely, if they saw a stain with the naked eye and thought erm!! what is this??, they would first spray it with luminol, to check to see if it contained blood. After all that is what they are looking for. Then if it tested for blood, number the wall up !!
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Gillyspot on 14.10.11 10:06

Stella having read the thread I have to disagree with you as regards the McCanns hiding Madeleine's body behind the sofa. It simply doesn't make sense when someone could easily look behind (even through the window) and they would also have to be constantly watching the twins so they didn't look there. Hiding a body in your wardrobe made much more sense and remember the dogs alerted there as well.

____________________
Kate McCann "I know that what happened is not due to the fact of us leaving the children asleep. I know it happened under other circumstances"
avatar
Gillyspot

Posts : 1470
Reputation : 6
Join date : 2011-06-13

Back to top Go down

stella

Post by russiandoll on 14.10.11 10:44

I am without a printer and wish I could do as you suggested in a different post and print off the creche sheets after enlarging them.
If what you suspect is true, Stella, it smacks of the most cold blooded calculation because there does not seem to be any panic involved in creating a fraudulent creche record.
For obvious reasons you allow a lot of reading between your lines.......but unless I am wrong you think something much more sinister than Sr Amaral's conclusion has taken place .

Its so dreadful I am lost for words and I hope to God it turns out to be only as bad as GA concludes.
avatar
russiandoll

Posts : 3942
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2011-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 14.10.11 13:26

Gillyspot wrote:Stella having read the thread I have to disagree with you as regards the McCanns hiding Madeleine's body behind the sofa. It simply doesn't make sense when someone could easily look behind (even through the window) and they would also have to be constantly watching the twins so they didn't look there. Hiding a body in your wardrobe made much more sense and remember the dogs alerted there as well.
The window from ground level outside is approximately 12 feet high, so no one could walk past and just look in. Curtains can be closed in an instant and left closed if necessary.

The twins were of walking age. Which means at any given time they could open up a wardrobe door by themselves. There was only one spot a body could be put where the twins could not reach and that's behind the sofa up against the wall. Think about it !! They couldn't move it could they? and with a piece of furniture at each end, they could not get behind it either.

Yes, the dogs did alert to the wardrobe and maybe that's where the body went first, until one of the twins possibly opened up a door !!! Which probably led to a more secure area, where the strongest scent of cadaver was and the most amount of blood found, i.e., behind the sofa.
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 14.10.11 13:31

russiandoll wrote:I am without a printer and wish I could do as you suggested in a different post and print off the creche sheets after enlarging them.
If what you suspect is true, Stella, it smacks of the most cold blooded calculation because there does not seem to be any panic involved in creating a fraudulent creche record.
For obvious reasons you allow a lot of reading between your lines.......but unless I am wrong you think something much more sinister than Sr Amaral's conclusion has taken place .

Its so dreadful I am lost for words and I hope to God it turns out to be only as bad as GA concludes.
We just don't know at this stage russiandoll. It's not just my opinion and in fact it was Kikoraton who first noticed the handwriting, but there is no other explanation for the discrepancies that we can see to explain another alternative.
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Bebootje on 14.10.11 16:42

Stella wrote:
Bebootje wrote:They just number up all spots where they found a stain to be tested in the lab. The lab results show which substance belongs to which stain I suppose. That is the only reason why they are marked. Could be tea, coffee, wine, food, etc.
But surely, if they saw a stain with the naked eye and thought erm!! what is this??, they would first spray it with luminol, to check to see if it contained blood. After all that is what they are looking for. Then if it tested for blood, number the wall up !!

Appearently they did not. There were a lot of stains that only contained some DNA material, some mixed with several persons (saliva, dirt, vomit possible). In that stage, maybe blood wasn't the only thing they were searching for. Every stain could contain a clue.

Bebootje

Posts : 86
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-07-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by steevo1962 on 15.10.11 1:53

I haven't read the whole thread but another theory could be that the McCann's pulled the sofa away from the window to stop a child reaching it and therefore opening the window and falling out. If this was the case she could have climbed onto it after hearing her dad's voice or after he left as she wanted her daddy. Fell over the back of the sofa and cracked her head on the hard tiles on the floor. This could explain why the signals were to the bottom left (Right if looking at it from behind) as she would fall awkwardly and rest horizontally on the floor.

Another interesting fact is that the cadavar dog signalled the dining chair. Madeleine could have been picked up by whoever in a moment of grief, they sat hugging her on the chair wondering what to do before hidng her body elswhere. for example...in the wardrobe under she got help to move her! If it was Kate then she may have transfered the scent onto cuddle cat after the alarm was raised.

Cuddle cat is another mystery. You would think an abductor would be clever enough to take it with him/her, maybe also the blanket in order to calm Madeleine down when she eventually woke up?
avatar
steevo1962

Posts : 77
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-10-12
Age : 54
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 15.10.11 8:31

Thanks Steevo thumbup at last, a different scenario we can explore. That would certainly be a good enough reason to pull the sofa quite some distance away from the wall, to prevent a child from opening that window.

I found this photo of the inside of the apartment, but it is difficult to know if a child of Madeleine's height standing on that sofa, could reach the sliding handles located half way up the window. Do those types of handles have locks on them I wonder?



Kate somewhere along the line claimed that she never raised the shutter on the children's bedroom window. To be honest, I think the McCanns could not be bothered in raising and lowering all these shutters every day. By keeping that livingroom side window shutter down all day, it would keep the apartment much cooler. So why bother to raise it up when you come home at the end of the day for an hour or so (sun sets about 7'ish), to have to lower it again the following morning. nah Knowing them, the only shutter they raised every day, would be the living room rear patio one.

Which means, if they never raised the living room side window shutter, then they never had any fears about Madeleine falling out of it, therefore no need to move the sofa in the first place. thumbup another scenario tried and tested, so thanks.

You see, from day one I have never felt comfortable with the 'fallen and died theory'. It has never felt right for me and it's a bit like trying to force a square peg into a round hole, that just does not fit and neither does this.
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Nina on 15.10.11 10:08

Have I imagined this, but didn't GA say/write something on the lines of the parents leaving their children and one of them falling from a window?

____________________
Not one more cent from me.
avatar
Nina

Posts : 2843
Reputation : 326
Join date : 2011-06-16
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 15.10.11 11:25

Nina wrote:Have I imagined this, but didn't GA say/write something on the lines of the parents leaving their children and one of them falling from a window?
Do you mean out of the side window? If so, what would the odds be of someone in the group finding her and not another guest?

What I think Goncalo Amaral thinks is, behind the sofa is where both blood and cadaver scent was found, therefore it must have been an accident. But I would argue, where is the proof that any of the children were left alone in the first place? Someone was missing every night and I have no doubts that this person was watching over all of the children. An accident happening with an adult around, would not need to be covered up. So it's simple. No children left alone, no accident.
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

I'm pretty sure they know.

Post by tigger on 15.10.11 13:00

Stella wrote:
Nina wrote:Have I imagined this, but didn't GA say/write something on the lines of the parents leaving their children and one of them falling from a window?
Do you mean out of the side window? If so, what would the odds be of someone in the group finding her and not another guest?

What I think Goncalo Amaral thinks is, behind the sofa is where both blood and cadaver scent was found, therefore it must have been an accident. But I would argue, where is the proof that any of the children were left alone in the first place? Someone was missing every night and I have no doubts that this person was watching over all of the children. An accident happening with an adult around, would not need to be covered up. So it's simple. No children left alone, no accident.

I'm pretty sure that one of the PJ (after Amaral was removed) said that they have evidence that all children were in one room together.
There was also a throw away remark from one of the nannies, who was on the scene very early, that the twins weren't in the room!
Then the PJ noted there were no sheets in the cots for the twins? Although by that time the twins were in 5a and sleeping soundly.
I think Amaral was well aware of all this, but even there, the police will have to go by what will stand up in court. The evidence behind the sofa is that a living body became a dead body. How is rather more difficult to prove. The blood spray which I think came from the press (but who was the source?)
points to human intervention, but again, can be dismantled in court. That is why the PJ went for the accident, imo.

____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.
avatar
tigger

Posts : 8114
Reputation : 47
Join date : 2011-07-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 15.10.11 14:23

Exactly tigger, they needed something that could be explained in court. Gerry also slipped up on the night saying "The twins were still sleeping in their cots. So... you'd be trying to leave it as undisturbed as possible, and they slept very soundly until we moved them out of the cots into their own apartment". But they were already in their own apartment, or did he mean return them to where they came from !!! winkwink

I've been trying to find the comment made by someone from the PJ, who talked about the possibility of death outside 5a and the body later being moved there. I'll keep looking for it.

avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Guest on 15.10.11 15:31

Question: How did the scent of a cadaver get in the flower bed?

Could a bag have been placed there, whilst the person carrying the bag went all the way round to the front door and unlocked the apartment?

Could a cleaning process, via a bucket or bowl have been emptied there?

Anyone with alternative thoughts on this?

avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

All things betray thee

Post by tigger on 15.10.11 16:58

Stella wrote:Question: How did the scent of a cadaver get in the flower bed?

Could a bag have been placed there, whilst the person carrying the bag went all the way round to the front door and unlocked the apartment?

Could a cleaning process, via a bucket or bowl have been emptied there?

Anyone with alternative thoughts on this?


Previous post, wonderful how the brain betrays you, isn't it? I've had it happen myself, when you're doing your utmost NOT to say something.
I didn't know about that remark from Gerry.

Re the cadaver scent in the flower bed? What if say, the tennis bag with contents was left there for ten, twenty minutes? Surely the most secure way to move the body was in a car, wasn't the flowerbed on the side of the car park? Pretty safe to be seen getting a lift with a tennis bag?
I would find it weird if the bag was returned to be photographed by the police on the 3rd. When did it disappear? Surely the police know, the pink blanket disappeared overnight, it was there on the 3rd, gone on the 4th. Was it the same story with the tennis bag? The PJ know, I hope.
Why was the tennis bag moved? Surely they didn't think of cadaver odour just then? So why? There was a reason.

____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.
avatar
tigger

Posts : 8114
Reputation : 47
Join date : 2011-07-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Sofa + accident = death, really?

Post by Nina on 15.10.11 17:34

Stella wrote:
Nina wrote:Have I imagined this, but didn't GA say/write something on the lines of the parents leaving their children and one of them falling from a window?
Do you mean out of the side window? If so, what would the odds be of someone in the group finding her and not another guest?

What I think Goncalo Amaral thinks is, behind the sofa is where both blood and cadaver scent was found, therefore it must have been an accident. But I would argue, where is the proof that any of the children were left alone in the first place? Someone was missing every night and I have no doubts that this person was watching over all of the children. An accident happening with an adult around, would not need to be covered up. So it's simple. No children left alone, no accident.



Hi Stella. I am having bad computer problems at the moment and try as I may I cannot find what I know I have read It was on the lines of a child falling from a window like ripe fruit. This really has stuck in my memory re the ripe fruit mention. Maybe you would have more luck than me

____________________
Not one more cent from me.
avatar
Nina

Posts : 2843
Reputation : 326
Join date : 2011-06-16
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 16 Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9 ... 16  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum