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Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 05.10.11 15:45

The trouble is, I have a terrible habbit of thinking well outside the box and as we know, criminals have been known to use all sorts of things playing on a sound system. Music, conversations, dogs barking and why not children crying !!! winkwink
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I love arguing with you!

Post by tigger on 05.10.11 15:54

@PeterMac wrote:
Stella wrote:Perhaps the 'crying incident', was never even a child.
Could it have been pre-recorded and this is why it stopped instantly when the patio door was heard opening, someone switched off some sort of device?
NO.
I think Occam's Razor needs sharpening !

I still like a recording of sorts. If nearly all the photographs are adjusted, it's just a small step to a recording to witness her being alive at that time, which is exactly what the photographs are trying to prove, what the creche records try to prove and what the T7 are agreeing to.

But I see your point, how could they know that Mrs. Fenn would react to this in any way? They would need a sure-fire audience for such a performance.
Still, I expect a child to cry for Mummy, not Daddy. It would also have to be a nasty thing to do, recording your child crying in order to play it later. Still, a recording like that can come from anywhere, radio for instance.
If she was 'ill' as the T7 may have believed, as from the moment they arrived, if she was crying the night of the 1st, would it have been an overdose to stop her? Letting it happen on purpose as it were?
But the main telephone activity was on the 30th? Murat back on the 1st? IMO she was already dead.
So, apart from the crying, everything fits with Kikoraton's analysis of the phone records, the lack of DNA, the family toothbrush, the diddled creche records, etc.
But the McCanns jumped right in on the crying episode, of which I'm trying to trace the timing. They can't get enough of it, which makes me suspect it's not true but very useful to them. After all, it proves she was alive on the 1st, they moved it to the 2nd, which proves the 3rd for her being alive.
Manna from heaven for them, I think.

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by happychick on 05.10.11 16:07

@frank zappa wrote:Planned all the way

I agree.

Here's a list Get 'em compiled in the Calculated Hoax thread https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2651-a-few-oddities

Gerry said on airport bus that he wasn't there to enjoy himself
Speed and professionalism of the Fund/website being set up
2006 seen on website when Maddie went missing in 2007
Naming Fund after a police forensic manual "No stone unturned"
John McCann gave up well-paid job despite having house, wife and kids to support
The last photo of Maddie believed to be fake
Kate's strange diary
Gerry's strange blog
Disregarding police advice about releasing information about Maddie's eye
Trademark, marketing ploy
Twins left in unlocked apartment after Kate raised alarm
Twins left in creche during aftermath while they went fundraising
Smiling and smirking
Whoever Madeleine's with she'll be giving them her tuppenceworth
Well it was our holiday too
Staged walks, jogging, globetrotting, not searching
Gerry planning events months ahead
No evidence of abduction
No jemmied window
Gerry alleged to have dumped Fridge, reference removed from his blog
Amaral believed Maddie's corpse was frozen or refrigerated
Curtains washed, sofa moved, no sheets on twins' cots
Rotting meat, dirty nappies transported in hire car
Lies and inconsistencies, changing statements/stories
Tearing Maddie's book to write timeline before police arrived
Deleting text messages and phone records the night Maddie disappeared
Phoning Sky before phoning police
Gerry having presence of mind to update his Friends Reunited profile to remove babysitting reference
Washing Cuddlecat and using it as a prop for staged photoshoots then dumping it once back in the UK
Framing Robert Murat
The Wider Agenda flipchart
The excessive mileage on the hire car
Blood/marks on walls and floor behind sofa
Cadaver scent in apartment and car and on Kate and Maddie's clothes
David Payne and Gerry's alleged 'paedophilic' conversation reported to police by Dr Gaspar
David Payne's alleged 'bathtime' visits
Jon Corner's strange remark about Maddie's special quality and charisma
Ward of Court
Question 41: Is it true that in England you considered giving up Madeleine's guardianship
Claiming to be devout Catholics which was denied by Kate's mother
Sedatives mystery
Not answering 48 police questions
Not going back to Portugal to do the reconstruction
Refusing to take lie detector test
Excuses made for evidence found
Discrediting sniffer dogs
Not requesting the re-opening of the case before the deadline on 20 September 2008
Not taking Amaral's advice and making a formal request to the British police to find Maddie, despite their insistence that she is still alive
Mr Amaral removed from investigation
Mr Amaral's dog killed with serious head injury
Sergey Malinka's car torched
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 05.10.11 16:14

If you go on Youtube and search for a child crying, you will be amazed what some people record. bigshock
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 05.10.11 16:19

@tigger wrote:I see your point, how could they know that Mrs. Fenn would react to this in any way? They would need a sure-fire audience for such a performance.
All anyone had to do was pick a night that Mrs Fenn had her windows open and turn up the sound system. It's not rocket science. winkwink

Perhaps if we check what the temperature was that night, I'm betting it was the hottest night with no wind at all, that entire week..
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 05.10.11 16:28

Didn't they know of someone in the film recording and television production industry? If so, they could get their hands on all sorts of background noises. Even the NSPCC has a child crying for Daddy non stop.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by jmac on 06.10.11 1:10

There is evidence that a dead person was in the McCanns`apartment, identified by the first dog. A small sample of blood was found under the tiles in one the the places identified by the first dog. The dogs are corroborating some of the evidence, even despite a thorough clean up. Police never obtain a full profile. DNA is the largest molecule known in the universe and most of it we have in common. Certain markers along the chromosomes are selected for comparison. Unfortunately relatives have more markers in common than strangers. When low copy number is used to build up the sample there is the possibility of contamination. Great care should have been taken with the samples to avoid this.

Without physical evidence of this kind there is only speculation. Physical evidence pins things down and has to be explained. It might not tell us everything, but it tells us something.`Ask the dogs ..., and keep the boot open because of the smell of dirty nappies` is flippant beyond belief from two doctors.

Desperate parents would have wanted to know all about this evidence because they would have wanted to know what had happened to Madeleine. After all she was the only child of theirs who was missing. Did the cadaverine and blood belong to Madeleine? They didn`t want to entertain that possibibility. I don`t think their reaction was normal

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 06.10.11 7:52

thumbsup Good post jmac.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 06.10.11 7:59

@jmac wrote:There is evidence that a dead person was in the McCanns`apartment, identified by the first dog Eddie. A small sample of blood was found under the tiles in one the the places identified by the first second dogKeela. The dogs are corroborating some of the evidence, even despite a thorough clean up. Police never obtain a full profile.

Sorry jmac, I just just thinking about your post again and for the purpose of clarity, I thought it best to tweek your post ever so slightly. If you don't mind.

Also, for those who are still unsure of how these dogs work. Eddie barks to alert for cadaver. Keela freezes at the source of blood. Two seperate independent working dogs, both alerting to the exact same area.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 06.10.11 8:29

Stella wrote:Eddie barks to alert for cadaver. Keela freezes at the source of blood. Two seperate independent working dogs, both alerting to the exact same area.

And what are the chances of them both being wrong in the exact same area?
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 06.10.11 8:37

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:
Stella wrote:Eddie barks to alert for cadaver. Keela freezes at the source of blood. Two seperate independent working dogs, both alerting to the exact same area.

And what are the chances of them both being wrong in the exact same area?
In my opinion and as a dog owner myself, absolutely zero.

The only reservation I have with all this, is it proves that a dead body was there at some point. But what it does not prove, is that someone died there on that very spot. As the body could have been moved there from somewhere else and I think the PJ also mentions this.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 06.10.11 8:52

Cats have got pretty good noses too - I've got two (cat's that is, not noses :roll: ) and they were both sniffing around the shed door and when I looked in the shed there was a dead vole.

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 06.10.11 9:08

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:
Stella wrote:Eddie barks to alert for cadaver. Keela freezes at the source of blood. Two seperate independent working dogs, both alerting to the exact same area.

And what are the chances of them both being wrong in the exact same area?

Pure coincidence, innit? Just like in the Zapata case. Simples! *wink*

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Lemain on 06.10.11 9:27

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:
Stella wrote:Eddie barks to alert for cadaver. Keela freezes at the source of blood. Two seperate independent working dogs, both alerting to the exact same area.

And what are the chances of them both being wrong in the exact same area?

I believe that those dogs react to human cadavers or blood generally, not specifically that belonging to an individual -- indeed, 'Cuddle Cat' had been washed (!). That being so, the PJ could have planted fluids before the dogs arrived. I'm not saying that happened -- indeed the factual and circumstantial evidence points closer to home -- but in any court case, defense would surely argue that in such a high-profile case a 'successful' result was required? Careers at stake?

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 06.10.11 9:27

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:Cats have got pretty good noses too - I've got two (cat's that is, not noses :roll: ) and they were both sniffing around the shed door and when I looked in the shed there was a dead vole.


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Sorry, but that is out of the question.

Post by tigger on 06.10.11 9:44

@Lemain wrote:
Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:
Stella wrote:Eddie barks to alert for cadaver. Keela freezes at the source of blood. Two seperate independent working dogs, both alerting to the exact same area.

And what are the chances of them both being wrong in the exact same area?

I believe that those dogs react to human cadavers or blood generally, not specifically that belonging to an individual -- indeed, 'Cuddle Cat' had been washed (!). That being so, the PJ could have planted fluids before the dogs arrived. I'm not saying that happened -- indeed the factual and circumstantial evidence points closer to home -- but in any court case, defense would surely argue that in such a high-profile case a 'successful' result was required? Careers at stake?

Sorry, but that is way out.
The police would have needed a cadaver to produce cadaver odour and do some creative thinking as to where to plant it in the flat, together with interesting sprays of blood.
They then planted blood and DNA in the Renault Scenic as well? Which was found to have 15 out of 19 alleles of Maddie?
But if they did that, then they knew where the body was to abstract the bodily fluids. I think they might have stopped there as the body was just what they were looking for?
There was a definite result for the DNA, not good enough for a Portugese court, but more than good enough under UK law. The suppression of that report and the later report with possibilities of contamination by staff is imo the most blatant interference in the due process of law.
Because of the available evidence, the PJ thought the best they could get was an admission of hiding an accidental death.

Even if lots of DNA, blood etc. had been found in the flat with a full match to Maddie, murder or manslaughter would be difficult to prove. There is absolutely no point to this theory.

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by PeterMac on 06.10.11 9:45

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:Cats have got pretty good noses too - I've got two (cat's that is, not noses :roll: )
If you've got two cats, you've got three.
Mr

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 06.10.11 9:53

@Lemain wrote:I believe that those dogs react to human cadavers or blood generally, not specifically that belonging to an individual. Correct.

-- indeed, 'Cuddle Cat' had been washed (!) We only have Kate's word for that, but in any case, washing does not remove the scent of cadaverine.

. That being so, the PJ could have planted fluids before the dogs arrived. spit coffee
I'm not sure where you are getting your information from Lemain, but let me clear a few things up. All of the following items remained in the McCann's possession, right up to the very point where Eddie signalled them for cadaverine.

Cuddlecat
Kate's trousers
Kate's blouse
Child's red t-shirt

At no time were they in the possession of the PJ and in any court of law, in any land, your suggestions of tampering would be laughed right out of court.


I'm not saying that happened -- But even you must be considering this as a possibility.

indeed the factual and circumstantial evidence points closer to home -- but in any court case, defense would surely argue that in such a high-profile case a 'successful' result was required? Careers at stake?
It is all about interpretation Lemain. So far, all we have been allowed to consider is the opinion of Team McCann and Carter Ruck. One day soon, we will also be allowed to consider a very different opinion, one that is backed up by a large number of criminal experts.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 06.10.11 9:55

@Lemain wrote:
Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:
Stella wrote:Eddie barks to alert for cadaver. Keela freezes at the source of blood. Two seperate independent working dogs, both alerting to the exact same area.

And what are the chances of them both being wrong in the exact same area?

I believe that those dogs react to human cadavers or blood generally, not specifically that belonging to an individual -- indeed, 'Cuddle Cat' had been washed (!). That being so, the PJ could have planted fluids before the dogs arrived. I'm not saying that happened -- indeed the factual and circumstantial evidence points closer to home -- but in any court case, defense would surely argue that in such a high-profile case a 'successful' result was required? Careers at stake?

I for one am glad you are not saying that! WHEN, pray tell, could the PJ have planted 'fluids' on CuddleCat, kate kept that thing so darn close she probably kept it in her knickers when she was asleep.

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 06.10.11 10:07

Stella wrote:
@Lemain wrote:I believe that those dogs react to human cadavers or blood generally, not specifically that belonging to an individual. Correct.

-- indeed, 'Cuddle Cat' had been washed (!) We only have Kate's word for that, but in any case, washing does not remove the scent of cadaverine.

. That being so, the PJ could have planted fluids before the dogs arrived.
I'm not sure where you are getting your information from Lemain, but let me clear a few things up. All of the following items remained in the McCann's possession, right up to the very point where Eddie signalled them for cadaverine.

Cuddlecat
Kate's trousers
Kate's blouse
Child's red t-shirt

At no time were they in the possession of the PJ and in any court of law, in any land, your suggestions of tampering would be laughed right out of court.


I'm not saying that happened -- But even you must be considering this as a possibility.

indeed the factual and circumstantial evidence points closer to home -- but in any court case, defense would surely argue that in such a high-profile case a 'successful' result was required? Careers at stake?
It is all about interpretation Lemain. So far, all we have been allowed to consider is the opinion of Team McCann and Carter Ruck. One day soon, we will also be allowed to consider a very different opinion, one that is backed up by a large number of criminal experts.

Well said, spot on, Stella. You got in much quicker than me, even though I only left a short flippant comment. I really MUST get broadband! For quickness I only mentioned the absurdity of 'tampering' with CuddleCat, of course you are right in quoting all the other posessions.

I just wonder how many 'handy corpses' people think the PJ must have had hanging around solely to 'frame' 'innocent tourists'? Unbelievable, maybe, but there are those who think this likely! (Including, Kate McCann herself, in her book, IIRC)

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 06.10.11 10:18

For even greater clarity. The cadaver dog Eddie did not personally approach any of the people who entered the McCann residence at the point of inspection. Martin Grime the British dog handler. Members of the PJ. Members of the British Police. Not one single person was approached, which means not one of them could have been carrying any cadaver contamination on them.

I know this didn't need to be said, but for all the doubters out there, we have every base covered !!! Mrs
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Lemain on 06.10.11 10:25

Stella wrote: One day soon, we will also be allowed to consider a very different opinion, one that is backed up by a large number of criminal experts.

Stella, the point I'm making is that there has not been any charge made against the parents or anyone else. The Portuguese police must have a huge amount of information, much of it inadmissible in a court; hearsay, dodgy witnesses, evidence that might have been tampered with (by whomsoever, not just the PJ). If the Portuguese authorities had believed they had a case strong enough to bring to court then presumably they would have done that?

Maybe we will one day have access to all of the information, maybe we won't, but meanwhile if one is going to speculate then one should keep in mind that the authorities did not consider the case to be strong enough despite having, presumably, access to all of the evidence. So by 'reverse-engineering' why not put on the table all of the potential weaknesses in the case against the parents? By looking at the possible weaknesses we might begin to get a clearer picture.

When it comes to DNA, you only need to look at the OJ trial. The techniques of amplification require almost impossible care in collection, storage and analysis when the samples are tiny. Probably the single biggest weakness in the case against the parents is the lack of a body and the fact that child abduction is not unheard of.

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Daisy on 06.10.11 13:28

Speaking of DNA, here's a very interesting article about the Amanda Knox case questioning the whole reliability of DNA testing. As expected, Madeleine McCann gets a mention too.

As Amanda Knox walks free, now DNA evidence is on trial

"DNA evidence is not very
time-sensitive: in the case of Madelaine McCanns tentative (and as it
turned out spurious) DNA evidence 'placed' the missing girl’s body in
the hire car used by her parents after she disappeared.

But of course this could have come, retrospectively, from her siblings, her clothes, her toys or her parents."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2044935/Amanda-Knox-freed-Now-DNA-evidence-trial-Kercher-murder-acquittal.html#ixzz1a0IHkOu0


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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 06.10.11 14:17

@Lemain wrote:
Stella wrote: One day soon, we will also be allowed to consider a very different opinion, one that is backed up by a large number of criminal experts.

Stella, the point I'm making is that there has not been any charge made against the parents or anyone else. The Portuguese police must have a huge amount of information, much of it inadmissible in a court; hearsay, dodgy witnesses, evidence that might have been tampered with (by whomsoever, not just the PJ). If the Portuguese authorities had believed they had a case strong enough to bring to court then presumably they would have done that?

Maybe we will one day have access to all of the information, maybe we won't, but meanwhile if one is going to speculate then one should keep in mind that the authorities did not consider the case to be strong enough despite having, presumably, access to all of the evidence. So by 'reverse-engineering' why not put on the table all of the potential weaknesses in the case against the parents? By looking at the possible weaknesses we might begin to get a clearer picture.

When it comes to DNA, you only need to look at the OJ trial. The techniques of amplification require almost impossible care in collection, storage and analysis when the samples are tiny. Probably the single biggest weakness in the case against the parents is the lack of a body and the fact that child abduction is not unheard of.
Political intervention by Gordon Brown and the Labour Government, prevented this investigation from ever getting off the ground. But don't worry, we have the right people in the right places now to finish the job.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Miraflores on 06.10.11 14:51

Political intervention by Gordon
Brown and the Labour Government, prevented this investigation from ever
getting off the ground. But don't worry, we have the right people in
the right places now to finish the job.

I wish I had your confidence in the present Government!
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