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Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 12.10.11 9:57

Goncalo Amaral is on record as saying, that the McCann's were made arguidos for "simulating a crime and hiding a cadaver".

Regardless of how and when Madeleine actually died, the PJ must have been very confident that they had enough evidence to prove both of the above did happen. Which surely means that "simulating a crime", was pre-meditated, in relation to claiming abduction and "hiding a cadaver", was also pre-meditiated, in relation to moving the body in their hire car.

Obviously, without knowing how someone died, the PJ were not in a position 'at that time', to arrest them with what little they had. But I do think this goes some way to proving that to a certain extent, there was some form of pre-meditation.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 12.10.11 10:00

Lady-Heather wrote:Something that struck me was that in Portugal, as a 'witness', you are obliged to cooperate fully with the police, and can be prosecuted for lying. As it's clear to me (from reading the conflicting statements from the Tapas 9), someone (or everyone!) is lying about a number of things.

First post but long-time reader :)
welcome Lady-Heather

That's right. The McCann's started off as witnesses, but were very soon made arguidos. This I believe had to happen, to be able to discuss with them some sensitive material that the PJ were holding, that they needed to ask them about.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by aiyoyo on 12.10.11 10:03

Me wrote:
Lemain wrote:
Me wrote:
The issue is why an innocent would choose the right of silence over full and frank disclosure, when such discovery would help the PJ eliminate her from their enquiries and allow them to look at other areas in order to find her missing daughter.

The innocent would probably do what their legal advisors tell them to do. I don't suppose we know for certain whether there was any advice given or if so, what it was, as that would presumably be privileged information between lawyer and client, but it seems very probable. If not probable, at least plausible and I doubt whether we will ever know for certain.

No they wouldn't.

Yes, Lemain, I agree with "ME" - why would they follow advice blindly (presuming advice is given by lawyer) if going along with lawyer advice is going to hinder the Police work in searching for their missing child? Which is more important, protecting yourself, or finding your child? If the former, you must be guilty if that is your prority - wouldnt you say?
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 12.10.11 10:15

Lemain wrote:If I spill coffee on the carpet (i.e. I am guilty) and am asked by the authorities whether I had spilled coffee then I have three choices. a) Yes (the truth but self-incirminating) b) No (a lie, under oath, not permitted) or c) I choose to remain silent (which is my right under law and may not be construed as a sign of guilt in some jurisdictions).

It's just how it is, has been for centuries and that's that.

I know it is not good manners to discuss someone's post when they are not around. But I think this one is a blinder. A magnificent own goal, in fact. What Lemain demonstrated here was that a guilty person chose to remain silent. Whether it is their right or not, they did the crime and chose to remain silent, 'so as not to incriminate themselves' further. The operative word being 'further'.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by aiyoyo on 12.10.11 10:35

Lemain wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
Excuse moi Lemain, mais ce n'etait pas moi qui a dit ca? Est-ce que tu peux le correcter stp?

Pardon, aiyoyo, ca va maintenant, j'espere?

Ah, a few posts up I see you've managed to edit your misquote - at last! And, I thought you were deliberately being obtuse when you responded with the above.
BTW, goggling and using wiki as your point so defeat the purpose of this debate b/c even wiki's topic is open to debate.
People are right in saying that although she has a right to remain silent, her choosing to do do so implies guilt.

No innocent can implicate themselves regardless whether the questions were directly or indirectly designed to entrap them because the truthful answers of an innocent can never contain facts of incriminating nature. Fact is unchangeable.
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Post by russiandoll on 12.10.11 10:56

you said :

The innocent would probably do what their legal advisors tell them
to do. I don't suppose we know for certain whether there was any advice
given or if so, what it was, as that would presumably be privileged
information between lawyer and client, but it seems very probable. If
not probable, at least plausible and I doubt whether we will ever know
for certain.


Please think of the context. I understand that you maybe wish to play devil's advocate and that you want debate, but while I like lively debate this does seem now to have reached a point where you and other posters have to agree to disagree....and draw a line.
I think you are as skeptical as most on here about the inconsistencies, deception, manipulation, misinformation and distortion that exists in this case and I think it is based as it shoud be on careful research of the facts.
You are correct to say it cannot be argued....exercising a right to silence in a police interview cannot be used to imply guilt.

However in a court of law, a prosecuting lawyer could and would ask the same or similar questions and a jury would be free to infer whatever it liked from a refusal to answer a lawyers questions in this arena.. as far as I am aware.

No one is disputing Kate's right to silence, she says in her book that she took the advice of a more knowledgeable person than herself about the workings of the Portuuese judicial system,[ however elsewhere in her book she refuses expert advice if it does not suit her agenda.]
Kate states in her book clearly that her belief was the police wanted the case closed, no damage to the country through decreasing tourism due to peadophilia and abduction fears.......that they were determined to fit her up despite her truthfulness [I have never lied to the police or anybody she says in the book].....so she wants us to believe in a lazy incompetent and corrupt police force.

Do you truly believe that her lawyer thought this of the judicial system in which he chose to work? Is it not more plausible that he advised her to be quiet so she would not drop herself in it that he knew the police could and would make a case against her. I dont blame her lawyer, it his his job to advise his client, but why on earth would a woman who was distraught at her daughters disappearance[ so traumatised that only the day after she was disproportionately bothered by the police not offering her a drink or food by the way] refuse to help the police eliminate her from the enquiry and move the investigation on?
IF THE ABDUCTION HAD HAPPENED AS DESCRIBED MAY 3, HER ANSWERS WOULD HAVE BEEN:
STRAIGHTFORWARD, CONCISE, TRUTHFUL AND COMPREHENSIVE BECAUSE THE QUESTIONS WERE DESIGNED FOR SPEED, SIMPLICITY AND FULL DETAIL TO BE OBTAINED.
You strike me as very intelligent Lemain, why would simple questions to establish movements and a timeline be a problem here?
Maybe because that was exactly where the dishonesty lay....and why she would have a massive problem giving simple and honest answers?

Start with a cool logical eye, Lemain, no presumption of anything......not of involvement or non -involvement, but open to all possibilities, just like a trained detective and where does a cool objevtive head and logic take you?

btw I also find your idea of dismemberment and disposal of a body gruesome and without basis. You are a strange one to be posting what you post...what is your agenda ?
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Me on 12.10.11 11:01

Russian Doll,

It's not so much as agreeing to disagree with Lemain. It is actually getting him to engage in debate on the points myself and others have put forward in response to his own posts.

For example he never once answered the question why an innocent party would need to use the right of silence to not self incriminate, when as an innocent by definition it is impossible to do so.

As i tried to point out several times until that question was answered by Lemain, we couldn't move things forward to the stage where we could even agree to disagree!

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What is certain is that since the start of the investigation there were  incongruent and even contradictory situations concerning the witness statements; the telephone records of calls that were made and received on mobile phones that belonged to the couple and to the group of friends that were on holidays with them; the movements of people right after the disappearance of the little girl was noticed, concerning the state in which the bedroom from where the child disappeared from was found (closed window? open window? partially open window?) etc., and the mystery would only become even thicker due to the clues that were left by the already mentioned sniffer dogs. - The Words of a JUDGE in relation to the McCanns

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Post by russiandoll on 12.10.11 11:10

I understand totally where you are coming from....but do you think you are going to get him/her to engage in debate in the manner we would all wish??
I think s/he is a wind up merchant and I dont think by withdrawing from the debate you would be conceding to Lemain.
Look at his own goal as Stella points out......

lets get on with something constructive as I am getting dizzy reading the posts...the position you [and I and others] hold wont change and neither will his it would appear.

The best predictor of future behaviour is past actions and I guess s/ he will carry on in the same vein.

Unless s/he is being obtuse and frustrating for the sake of it, in which case s/he is a time waster and lets all save our energy. !!



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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 12.10.11 11:20

Don't worry folks. This is a very valid thread and we do not want everyone else to feel the need to walk away from here with frustration. Ideas and questions need to be discussed sensibly and answered with respect. If Lemain returns after his 24 hour little break and gets on his merry-go-round again. He will be shown the door.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Me on 12.10.11 11:22

russiandoll wrote:I understand totally where you are coming from....but do you think you are going to get him/her to engage in debate in the manner we would all wish??
I think s/he is a wind up merchant and I dont think by withdrawing from the debate you would be conceding to Lemain.
Look at his own goal as Stella points out......

lets get on with something constructive as I am getting dizzy reading the posts...the position you [and I and others] hold wont change and neither will his it would appear.

The best predictor of future behaviour is past actions and I guess s/ he will carry on in the same vein.

Unless s/he is being obtuse and frustrating for the sake of it, in which case s/he is a time waster and lets all save our energy. !!




Well i'd like to think Lemain's purpose for being here was to engage in debate rather than make bold statements (which were wrong) ignoring all replies and then simply posting again the same incorrect nonsense.

I suspsected he was a wind up merchant but i was simply trying to draw him out and to get him to answer the questions i had asked. If he had done so honestly he would then have seen the errors in his earlier statements and contraditced himself.

At the point of his sabbatical i was on the verge of bailing out of it anyway. I was getting more sense from the cat.

I would have been far more interested in hearing from truthsoup because he/she was more upfront about his/her feelings and made comment on the witness statement and arguido processes which i wanted to engage in.

The thing about Truthsoup was he/she seemd to have a brain but tried to play both sides when clearly he/she was a McCann supporter. Had he/she been honest and upfront about that from the start i don't think there would have been an issue.

It amazes me why MCann supporters can't come on here and say "look I support the Mccann's, heres's the reaosns why, let's discuss it", rather than trying to play games and wind everyone up.

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by HotlipsHealy on 12.10.11 11:36

Me wrote:It amazes me why MCann supporters can't come on here and say "look I support the Mccann's, heres's the reaosns why, let's discuss it", rather than trying to play games and wind everyone up.

Exactly.

But they do seem to get some kind of perverse pleasure from game-playing with Madeleine's disappearance. She's believed to be dead by the British and Portuguese police and all they can do is troll forums and try to disrupt debate. I have yet to see one McCann 'disbeleiver' troll their forums. But maybe that's because as Bonnybraes says on her forum "If you're not on our list you're not coming in".

That's the level of the debate they want with us.

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by aiyoyo on 12.10.11 12:53

Stella wrote:
Lemain wrote:If I spill coffee on the carpet (i.e. I am guilty) and am asked by the authorities whether I had spilled coffee then I have three choices. a) Yes (the truth but self-incirminating) b) No (a lie, under oath, not permitted) or c) I choose to remain silent (which is my right under law and may not be construed as a sign of guilt in some jurisdictions).

It's just how it is, has been for centuries and that's that.

I know it is not good manners to discuss someone's post when they are not around. But I think this one is a blinder. A magnificent own goal, in fact. What Lemain demonstrated here was that a guilty person chose to remain silent. Whether it is their right or not, they did the crime and chose to remain silent, 'so as not to incriminate themselves' further. The operative word being 'further'.



I spill coffee on the carpet (i.e. I am guilty)
and am asked by the authorities whether I had spilled coffee then I
have three choices. a) Yes (the truth but self-incirminating)

That the bits I like best b/c Lemain put his/her foot in it.
It's precisely what people have been discussing all along ie that kate'd chosen to remain silence because the first choice of telling the truth is self incriminating. The second choice of lying under oath is perjury so no option for her really. Tell the truth and go to jail, lie and go to jail, or stay silence and flee.

What is wrong with admitting you spill coffee unless you know admission would come with punishment.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 12.10.11 16:18

aiyoyo wrote:What is wrong with admitting you spill coffee unless you know admission would come with punishment.
Exactly. But what if you had intended to spill the coffee on purpose, i.e., pre-meditation. How many people would admit to it? Or, as I have done in a restaurant many decades ago. Someone lit one of those Italian biscuit wrappers. Up in the air it went and upon coming down, I realised I was in an inflamable party dress, affraid so I panicked and grabbed the table to push myself backwards quick, knocking a full glass of Irish coffee, all over the gentleman next to me's white shirt. As it was, it was his coffee and he lit the wrapper and all he said to me was, "that is racing drivers reactions". big grin So not an ounce of pre-meditation there. I had nothing to hide, or was afraid of explaining if I had to. titter
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re-posted from this topic

Post by tigger on 12.10.11 17:34

tigger wrote:Lemain. From your post in 'Guardiano River'quote
The river is well-stocked with fish of all kinds -- from freshwater, brackish and salt, at the estuary. The speed depends on how much rain there has been and the amount let out from the dam further upstream. There are wide, slow-flowing sections and narrower fast-flowing sections. A lot depends on how grizzly one imagines the disposal process...it pains me to even consider that. I suppose smaller pieces would be 'safer'. The entire river is desolate along both banks. snipped
unquote
I answered that I didn't think this likely.
This was the answer from Lemain: From your post here: quote
Obviously you're not a country lad/y Few farmers mistreat their animals, horse owners even 'love' their horses but when they are dead....they are dead. By the way, I also said that I didn't think it likely they'd 'chop up' their daughter -- but they could enshroud her body with chains. Though 'chopping-up' would be the safest solution, of course. unquote.



I took the first quote to mean that it pained you to think so but it was a distinct possibility, so imo the second quote in bold doesn't follow.
I also think comparing the feelings of loving parents to that of a farmer for that of his stock, really doesn't make sense. This whole case is so strange because these are very strange, absolutely not normal parents. That is the fons et origo of the whole affair. Had they been normal parents, this website wouldn't exist.
By the way, I lived for over twenty years in rural Herefordshire and will be returning there soon
12/10 addendum today:
Here is the post I mentioned in my last communication on this topic with Lemain. Since both topics were started by him (I take the allusion to not being a 'country lady' to be from a male person, a woman would have said 'woman' or 'girl') I would at least have expected him to follow the thread.

From this post it is clear that he advanced a theory, compared the feelings of farmers for their stock with those of parents for their children and drew the conclusion that chopping up the dead body of their child wouldn't be such a big deal for doctors.
Whatever the McCanns may or may not have done, there is not way I can see this as even a remote possibility.
I had no answer to this post, that was the point where I began to doubt whether Lemain is interested in discussion or just likes to ruffle our feathers.
There is another post by him where he goes into some detail as to the advantages of a cat's cradle and the useful small fish who will consume the body, he also states in it that doctors are used to grisly sights. Can't find it right now.
Windup from then on imo.

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by aiyoyo on 12.10.11 17:54

Still on lemain "spilling the coffee" example, whether a person spills it deliberately or accidentally they will own up if they know they wont get into trouble.

If however they know for certainty they will get into trouble be it they did it purposely or accidentally, then the 2 other options lemain mentioned ie lie or stay silence applies. Since owning up would mean falling foul with someone or the law and lying only to be found later would be worst, so really if the deed doer intends to extricate themselves from their dire situation the only option left is to 'refuse to answer the question'.

In that situation it is patently clear that the person choosing to stay silence instead of owning up to avoid self discrimination clearly knows their act is punishable (irrespective purposely or accidentally) hence the need to refuse to say a thing, which brings us back to square one, meaning no innocent will refuse to answer truthfully if it isn't about protecting their own hide.

This principle applies to kate when she refused to answers those simple questions - instead she construed those innocence questions as something else - something with dark connotations that she can trip herself b/c she knew her truthful answers are incriminating - otherwise why fear the types of questions never mind the implications of them. Kate doesnt need a lawyer to tell her to stay silence, she knew exactly what she was doing.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Invinoveritas on 12.10.11 18:26

Quote tigger:

From this post it is clear that he advanced a theory, compared the feelings of farmers for their stock with those of parents for their children and drew the conclusion that chopping up the dead body of their child wouldn't be such a big deal for doctors.
Whatever the McCanns may or may not have done, there is not way I can see this as even a remote possibility.
I had no answer to this post, that was the point where I began to doubt whether Lemain is interested in discussion or just likes to ruffle our feathers.
There is another post by him where he goes into some detail as to the advantages of a cat's cradle and the useful small fish who will consume the body, he also states in it that doctors are used to grisly sights. end quote.

up until my retirement due to bad health I worked as a qualified male nurse, I have worked on surgical wards, A&E, in Theatre, as a para-medic on the ambulances, with alchoholics, drug-addicts and with patients with psychiatric disorders, I think and know that people working in these areas develop their own sense of humour, some would say very black, it is our defence against that that we experience from day to day, but never and I say never have I heard of any of my colleages talking about chopping up innocent dead children and disposing of them as a bit of offal
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Quite so, invinoveritas.

Post by tigger on 12.10.11 18:39

Dismembering your own child to feed to the fishes or wrapping her in chains to do the same. Save me! Lemain was perhaps trying to get us to agree? CR would have a field day!

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Invinoveritas on 12.10.11 19:29

Never mind tigger, no doubt the next "pros" are on their way, what I have up to now not understood is why Sergei Malinka dropped out of the radar, any ideas?
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Who he?

Post by tigger on 12.10.11 19:48

Invinoveritas wrote:Never mind tigger, no doubt the next "pros" are on their way, what I have up to now not understood is why Sergei Malinka dropped out of the radar, any ideas?

You got me there, no idea who that is, not the Gosport poster?

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Gillyspot on 12.10.11 21:07

He's Murats Russian friend/associate who phoned him

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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by aiyoyo on 13.10.11 9:00

So lemain is a WUM then?

Why do trolls like to create new thread then disintegrate into disruption?

Where are they hoping to lead us to........?
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 13.10.11 9:01

aiyoyo wrote:Where are they hoping to lead us to........?
Away from more important things, I would think.
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by Guest on 13.10.11 9:07

Here's an interesting article on Internet trolls.

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/troll.htm
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Re: Pre-meditated and planned long in advance?

Post by 1soapy on 29.05.14 0:52

No link or inspiration between this post and the previous one btw NFWTD!


For those who support the pre-planned… whatever, I wanted to mention this and add some thoughts. I searched and found this to be an appropriate thread. Sorry if not or discussed elsewhere. Feel free to move.


Having travelled, worked or lived extensively in dozens of countries on all habitable continents, when I think of the idea of a pre-planned… whatever, there are many much better places in the world that would give a good chance of authorities not finding out the truth.


Most are not as advanced in many modern ways as Europe and reasons vary from vastness and remoteness, corruption, weak/sparse or ill equipped policing and ease of opportunity. Having said that, some of these places would not necessarily be the first or best choice for a family and may look suspicious, (go to unusual place for first time and someone dies), so perhaps Portugal had to be the place as it fitted in with previous holidays and it was already known and avoided suspicion.


I do think, even with a considerable time of planning, that it is difficult to plan something along the lines of making a child go missing. I know that numerous people have been found after years, just close to their homes and some murders go undiscovered or unsolved. I do think that the element of luck, circumstances, who is around at any particular time and things not thought of at the time, can hinder the best plans.


It may be possible to make a body, ‘disappear’, but there’s more to consider. The problem is, sounding convincing, holding it together, the lack of evidence of an alleged culprit surrounding the disappearance (which would seem suspicious), and there is likely to be a motive found for the actual culprit(s) or something or someone else who blows it.


Likewise, faking a crime scene (to suggest an accident or other party’s involvement) would always leave something out under modern day investigative methods nd advances as well as needing to be a damn fine actor/actress (or is it just actor for both sexes?).


I wrote a short story once, called, ‘there’s always an eye witness’ (though I’ve heard that it has since or previously already been written by someone else! Did I get the idea from that or was it just a coincidence?). It was about someone who committed the perfect murder. The person got away with it. It was the guilt building up inside, that years later finally caused a self confession. The murderer confessed and was (as the title implies) the only eye witness.


What seemed perfect then is no longer, and what seems perfect now is likely to be detectable later by some, perhaps new means. I think innovative detection is moving faster than new ideas for crimes such as murder. Not so, crimes involving drugs and other things, where a few mobile phone spotters easily out manouver the police.



I do admit though, to being surprised at some cases in question being unsolved or bloopered in today’s age. Litvinenko by basic cold war means; the body in the suitcase, the (Michael Barrymore) Stuart Lubbock case, Tia Sharpe’s (don’t check the loft please) error. I was her teacher btw. MH370 and numerous other cases. I do not think that unsolved is another word for conspiracy or cover up; many are just unsolved or poorly investigated I think. Not all necessarily though.


I’ve never thought of a fool proof way of knocking someone off that I’d feel would hold water under almost any conditions. The really simple ones point back to the guilty for lack of another guilty party. Complex ones leave too many unknowns. Using complex or hired machinery or vehicles leave traces/trails behind. Has anyone else thought of any? Maybe this isn’t the place for that, though it could raise ideas of how this case could have evolved – e.g. adding to the thread(s) of where a body could be hidden, which has been started previously.


All IMO, no accusations.

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