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The Renault Scenic

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The Renault Scenic

Post by Invinoveritas on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 18:25

Could somebody help me with this one please:



as far as I have gathered the hotel reception filled out the rental contracts for the cars and that the cars were delivered to the hotel to be picked up by the customers. Gerry rented the Scenic as customer and driver for the first time on the 27th of May with Michael Wright as an additional Driver, the contract was renewed on the 3rd of June having been driven 750km. The new contract was issued with the customer being zodiac rent a car ltd., Gerry being the driver and Michael once again being the additional driver, the kilometer stand was 3864km.

One month later on the 2nd of July the contract was again renewed, customer and driver Gerry, no additional driver, kilometerstand 5864km, having been driven 2000km. Strange that is.

Didn´t Team Mccann move into the Villa on the third?

now it gets interesting:

Gerry flew to London on the 12th of July, Michael Wright flew to Portugal on the 12th to pick up Kate and the twins for a baptism in Skipton, he said in his interview that she picked him up at the airport in a Renault Espace (Scenic?). The next day they flew to the UK. The Mccanns returned on the 15th.

The contract for the Scenic was once again renewed on the 2nd of August, once again with Gerry as customer and driver, no additional driver, kilometerstand 5865km, having been driven 1km. (Gerry had his virus bug on this day), The dogs had sniffed the appartment on the 1st.

On the 3rd of August the Mccanns drove to Huelva and back, the dogs did a second check of the appartment with new results.

The Scenic was taken away at some point later, probably loaded up and was examined by the dogs on the 6th August, the results we know.

Was the car given back to the Mccanns after this date because Michael Wright professes to have driven the car around both in August and also in September

Once again the contract was renewed on the 1st of September, Gerry as customer and driver, additional driver Michael Wright, kilometerstand 5866km, driven kilometers 1km.

The Mccanns left Portugal on the 9th of September,as did Michael , the car was returned on the 23rd of September Kilometerstand 14443.



So, my questions:

Why did Gerry not rent the car himself on June 3rd? credit cards?

Why did he use a firm in Bracknell for this?

Was Kate driving the car without insurance?

Were the renewals of the contract pro forma and the kilometerstand just inserted for the sake of the renewal?

Michael Wright was, according to his statement using the Renault without insurance ( either he or Kate in August)

Why was the car not at least returned to the hotel reception on the 9th of September?


Was there more than one car being rented?
my apologies if I´m boring



the links are here:

Michael Wright:

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2270-madeleine-mccann-the-role-of-michael-wright?highlight=michael+wright



car rentals:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RENTAL_CONTRACTS-1.htm



Zodiac Rent A Car:

http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/zodiac-rent-a-car
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6573 miles in 105 days

Post by tigger on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 20:07

That is a lot! Google gives the distance to the airport as about 67 km.( 42 miles) But that doesn't account for that sort of mileage. Even once a week to the airport and driving round town wouldn't give more than say max. 300 km per week.( about 187 miles a week). Which would be around 4500 km (2812 miles) in 15 weeks they were there. There was the long Huelva trip one day, but there must have been lots of days with just a few kilometres done.

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The Renault Scenic

Post by alfie02 on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 20:19

tigger wrote:That is a lot! Google gives the distance to the airport as about 67 km.( 42 miles) But that doesn't account for that sort of mileage. Even once a week to the airport and driving round town wouldn't give more than say max. 300 km per week.( about 187 miles a week). Which would be around 4500 km (2812 miles) in 15 weeks they were there. There was the long Huelva trip one day, but there must have been lots of days with just a few kilometres done.
Yes i think that was one of the things mr Amaral wanted to quiz them about or that he did quiz them about it but was offered no explaination as to where they had travelled, in order to put that much mileage on the car.
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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Invinoveritas on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 20:32

tigger wrote:That is a lot! Google gives the distance to the airport as about 67 km.( 42 miles) But that doesn't account for that sort of mileage. Even once a week to the airport and driving round town wouldn't give more than say max. 300 km per week.( about 187 miles a week). Which would be around 4500 km (2812 miles) in 15 weeks they were there. There was the long Huelva trip one day, but there must have been lots of days with just a few kilometres done.



Correct, but after the car had been subjected to Eddie and Keela´s inspection on the 6th of August, they (Mccans and consortium) were still, according to Michael Wright´s interview using the car and the rental was renewed into September, I find it hard to believe that a piece of evidence should be returned, bugging the car had already been refused, something is wrong in this fairy-tale, but damn it, I can´t get my brain around it, I think there might have been a so called courtesy car supplied from the Mark Warner Ocean Club.

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Other cars were available?

Post by tigger on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 20:42

I think Amaral mentions they had a number of acquaintances in PdL. Then there is also the strange case of ROB and MO's telephone signals, which indicate they must have had the use of a car soon after 3/5.
I think it very likely that there was a car that the T9 were able to use/share. DP had a friend there who organised their new mobiles, why not a car?


Then the recent posts that a restaurant owner had seen the whole family at Easter in April at the beach near PdL.
This would coincide with a man taking photographs and Murat and Jane Tanner being in the same car together.
I'll try and find it. It must be on this site, I hardly look at others. It was quite recent, not more than three weeks ago.

My guess about the Renault is that they never thought the new villa or the hire car would be checked over by the police. They've certainly never forgiven them.

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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Guest on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 20:46

Invinoveritas wrote:
tigger wrote:That is a lot! Google gives the distance to the airport as about 67 km.( 42 miles) But that doesn't account for that sort of mileage. Even once a week to the airport and driving round town wouldn't give more than say max. 300 km per week.( about 187 miles a week). Which would be around 4500 km (2812 miles) in 15 weeks they were there. There was the long Huelva trip one day, but there must have been lots of days with just a few kilometres done.



Correct, but after the car had been subjected to Eddie and Keela´s inspection on the 6th of August, they (Mccans and consortium) were still, according to Michael Wright´s interview using the car and the rental was renewed into September, I find it hard to believe that a piece of evidence should be returned, bugging the car had already been refused, something is wrong in this fairy-tale, but damn it, I can´t get my brain around it, I think there might have been a so called courtesy car supplied from the Mark Warner Ocean Club.


I read somewhere a long time ago, that an identical car had be returned to the McCanns and the original kept. Probably a forum myth. Here article where it states the McCanns kept the car up until they left...............



If the McCanns' hire car is vital evidence why were they still driving it up until they left?

By DANIEL BOFFEY and IAN GALLAGHER

Last updated at 13:12 09 September 2007

[snipped]

The hire car at the centre of the case against Madeleine's parents was still being driven around by the McCanns until they left Portugal, raising questions over the professionalism of the police investigation.
The four-seat silver Renault Scenic was dismantled, stripped and swabbed for forensic analysis at the beginning of August but returned to the McCann family just two-and-a-half days later to allow them to continue to run their campaign to find their daughter.
Swabs from the car were sent to the Birmingham forensic laboratory after British sniffer dogs detected a scent in the boot during the brief time that it was in police possession.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-480805/If-McCanns-hire-car-vital-evidence-driving-left.html#ixzz1YW22h9QB
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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Invinoveritas on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 21:05

The friend said the car, believed to have been rented from Eurocar at Faro airport, had been hired on May 28 --25 days after Madeleine vanished.

And she revealed that "a variety of other named drivers" had access to it over the 72 days before it was taken in to be swabbed on August 7



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-480805/If-McCanns-hire-car-vital-evidence-driving-left.html#ixzz1YW6d07vX



The car was rented from AAC-Budget and only Gerry and Michael were allowed to drive it with insurance according to the contract, who´s telling fibbies now?
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Zaival beach topic for invinoveritas

Post by tigger on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 21:44


Zaival Beach
Molly on Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:13 pm

"I inform you that, upon going to the Zavial Beach concession of Ernesto Joaquim Muchacho , telephone contact numbers, ******** and ******; the same stated that he recognised the parents of Madeleine McCann as clients of his restaurant and that he remembers seeing them for the last time in his establishment in the month of April (Easter holidays), accompanied by their three children. Since this date, as he exercises his function in the kitchen, he does not remember having seen them on that beach or in his restaurant.

It is relevant to note that the Zaival Beach is normally frequented by nudists, and consequently attracts some peepers/lookers on.









These are facts I wanted to bring to your attention.

Lagos, 09th of May of 2007."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAQUIM_MUCHACHO.htm


unquote

this is from Molly's post on the topic Zaival beach, there are other posts there about Murat and a car as I remember.





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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Guest on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 22:30


there's some interesting info in this letter to Amaral from his inspectors in september 2007after the Mccann's had gone back to the UK.

Info re the scenic rental:
- The Scenic was rented on 27 May with an additional driver, Cameron, and, at the end of August, Wright was added to the contract. It was returned to the rental offices on 23 September by an unnamed person described as six-foot, short grey hair, 60-65 years, whose signature on the delivery note is illegible.
- The odometer on return was 14,443 km; it had been 3,114 at the start, so the vehicle had travelled 11,229km. [NOTE: Arithmetically, that should read 11,329km]

I think the individual who returned the car was John Geraghty

There is also a report in the files from a resident that the Mccann's had been seen at another villa in july in a different car:
With respect to the property Vila D'Arte, at which the father had been reportedly seen at some time during July, and to which the family (adults and two children) had travelled in a Citroen C3 or Renault Clio, it had been the permanent residence of persons originating from Holland and/or UK for some 4 to 5 years; the (then-)present occupants hired it through an Internet site from 24 to 29 September.
- The local informal agent for that property had always understood that only friends or family of the owners were granted access to it.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm



Thought this was interesting - seems like the CRG arrived to clean up after they left - somehow don't think they were there to do some light dusting:

The DCCB got wind of the possible arrival of certain Englishmen from an information gathering organisation (CRG) supposedly with an assignment to clean places and things associated with the family
.
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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Invinoveritas on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 22:47

tigger wrote:
Zaival Beach
Molly on Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:13 pm

"I inform you that, upon going to the Zavial Beach concession of Ernesto Joaquim Muchacho , telephone contact numbers, ******** and ******; the same stated that he recognised the parents of Madeleine McCann as clients of his restaurant and that he remembers seeing them for the last time in his establishment in the month of April (Easter holidays), accompanied by their three children. Since this date, as he exercises his function in the kitchen, he does not remember having seen them on that beach or in his restaurant.

It is relevant to note that the Zaival Beach is normally frequented by nudists, and consequently attracts some peepers/lookers on.









These are facts I wanted to bring to your attention.

Lagos, 09th of May of 2007."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAQUIM_MUCHACHO.htm


unquote

this is from Molly's post on the topic Zaival beach, there are other posts there about Murat and a car as I remember.







Touche! ha.ha, I now see pro-mccanns scrambling for the easter holiday dates in 2007
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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Invinoveritas on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 22:58

Stewie wrote:
there's some interesting info in this letter to Amaral from his inspectors in september 2007after the Mccann's had gone back to the UK.

Info re the scenic rental:
- The Scenic was rented on 27 May with an additional driver, Cameron, and, at the end of August, Wright was added to the contract. It was returned to the rental offices on 23 September by an unnamed person described as six-foot, short grey hair, 60-65 years, whose signature on the delivery note is illegible.
- The odometer on return was 14,443 km; it had been 3,114 at the start, so the vehicle had travelled 11,229km. [NOTE: Arithmetically, that should read 11,329km]

I think the individual who returned the car was John Geraghty

There is also a report in the files from a resident that the Mccann's had been seen at another villa in july in a different car:
With respect to the property Vila D'Arte, at which the father had been reportedly seen at some time during July, and to which the family (adults and two children) had travelled in a Citroen C3 or Renault Clio, it had been the permanent residence of persons originating from Holland and/or UK for some 4 to 5 years; the (then-)present occupants hired it through an Internet site from 24 to 29 September.
- The local informal agent for that property had always understood that only friends or family of the owners were granted access to it.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm



Thought this was interesting - seems like the CRG arrived to clean up after they left - somehow don't think they were there to do some light dusting:

The DCCB got wind of the possible arrival of certain Englishmen from an information gathering organisation (CRG) supposedly with an assignment to clean places and things associated with the family
.



stewie, check out numbers 2906 and 2907 on the link I´ve included, there is no mention of a Cameron as an additional driver:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RENTAL_CONTRACTS-1.htm
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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Guest on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 23:18


Well that's odd... the inspectors details are correct in terms of the number plate, the rental company, the date but you're right the additional driver on the contract is Michael Wright but the inspectors say it is Alexander Cameron on the initial rental 27/5 then Michael Wright added end of August - it's not like the names could be mistaken for each other .. so not clear where that name comes from.....hmm..is nothing in this case straightforward and what-you-see-is-what-you-get?

The link in my previous post - there is a summary letter then scrolling down there is a fuller description of the rental:

2. As regards the Renault Grand Scenic, number plate 59-DA-27, it was hired by Gerry from Rent a car AA. Castanheira, with offices in Lagos, on 27-05-2007 and was delivered to the McCann couple at the apartment they were occupying in P da L, from which time it was noted in the contract that a friend of the McCanns, Alexander Cameron, was noted as an additional driver.

- At a later date, at the end of August, another additional driver was added to the contract, Michael Terrence Wright.
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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Guest on Tue 20 Sep 2011 - 23:44


So Alexander Cameron is Sandy Cameron, Gerry's brother inlaw. According to this link Sandy and Trish were in PDL within 1 or 2 days and stayed till the end of summer so they would have been there at the time the car was hired.
There seems to be a lot of relatives around - so maybe there were other cars hired to carry all the people around.
If the McCann's were seen in another car during july then think that's possible..


TRISH AND SANDY CAMERON (47 and ??) Year 2007
Gerry's sister, Trish Cameron, is nurse from Dumbarton near Glasgow. She said that her brother, Gerry, called her (on May 3rd) "breaking his heart". Mrs Cameron, her husband (Sandy), her mother and Mr and Mrs Healy (Kate's parents) travelled out to Portugal within 1 or 2 days of the disappearance. Trish and Sandy stayed until the end of summer, but Trish returned to Portugal again when news broke that Kate and Gerry were to be re-questioned. Trish accompanied Kate to the PJ headquarters.http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/FAMILY.htm
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Kate not a driver?

Post by tigger on Wed 21 Sep 2011 - 8:54

Is Kate never listed as a driver?

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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Guest on Wed 21 Sep 2011 - 10:43

tigger wrote:Is Kate never listed as a driver?

NO, she was to tormented and distressed to drive a car.. violin
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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by PeterMac on Wed 21 Sep 2011 - 10:49

Moa wrote:
tigger wrote:Is Kate never listed as a driver?
NO, she was to tormented and distressed to drive a car.. violin
And too busy looking after the children.

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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Invinoveritas on Wed 21 Sep 2011 - 16:02

Invinoveritas wrote:
tigger wrote:That is a lot! Google gives the distance to the airport as about 67 km.( 42 miles) But that doesn't account for that sort of mileage. Even once a week to the airport and driving round town wouldn't give more than say max. 300 km per week.( about 187 miles a week). Which would be around 4500 km (2812 miles) in 15 weeks they were there. There was the long Huelva trip one day, but there must have been lots of days with just a few kilometres done.



Correct, but after the car had been subjected to Eddie and Keela´s inspection on the 6th of August, they (Mccans and consortium) were still, according to Michael Wright´s interview using the car and the rental was renewed into September, I find it hard to believe that a piece of evidence should be returned, bugging the car had already been refused, something is wrong in this fairy-tale, but damn it, I can´t get my brain around it, I think there might have been a so called courtesy car supplied from the Mark Warner Ocean Club.



Amendment, the car was returned to the Mccanns after the inspection through the dogs, it was then stored in a garage by John Geragthy, ( an alleged friend of the Mccanns), to enable them to get an Independent Forensic Team to inspect it and to " rubbish" the portugese police findings. This from the Daily Wail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-484797/Sacked-maid-kidnapped-Madeleine-bosses.html



John Geragthy was also the person who passed over the church key to the Mccanns on the 7th or 8th of May.

http://madeleinemccann.org/2009/1941/profile-john-geraghty/



I have come to the conclusion that it was John who returned the Scenic on the 23rd of September, the description in the PJFiles suits him.

Did they get someone to clinically dismember the car and reassemble it with spare parts?
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Makes the mileage even more incomprehensible.

Post by tigger on Wed 21 Sep 2011 - 16:30

If it was off road, altogether I'd think for up to a week, that makes the mileage even more difficult to explain. I'm pretty sure Sandy Cameron etc. did have a car as well.

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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Invinoveritas on Wed 21 Sep 2011 - 16:48

tigger wrote:If it was off road, altogether I'd think for up to a week, that makes the mileage even more difficult to explain. I'm pretty sure Sandy Cameron etc. did have a car as well.



Yes I agree that there must have been other cars, if the journalists were concentrating on the Scenic then the Mccanns could have got out of town another way, as to the mileage, if it´s true then they did an awfull lot of clicks in approx. 1 month, mind you, experts can alter the odometer backwards so why not forwards?
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Sorry, that makes no sense.

Post by tigger on Wed 21 Sep 2011 - 17:52

Invinoveritas wrote:
tigger wrote:If it was off road, altogether I'd think for up to a week, that makes the mileage even more difficult to explain. I'm pretty sure Sandy Cameron etc. did have a car as well.



Yes I agree that there must have been other cars, if the journalists were concentrating on the Scenic then the Mccanns could have got out of town another way, as to the mileage, if it´s true then they did an awfull lot of clicks in approx. 1 month, mind you, experts can alter the odometer backwards so why not forwards?

If they did that, than they'd have to pay far more for the rental I expect. And it makes no sense to do that, adjusting it backwards does make sense and I'm sure car hire firms are aware of that.

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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Xavier on Wed 21 Sep 2011 - 19:17

Invinoveritas wrote:Could somebody help me with this one please:



as far as I have gathered the hotel reception filled out the rental contracts for the cars and that the cars were delivered to the hotel to be picked up by the customers. Gerry rented the Scenic as customer and driver for the first time on the 27th of May with Michael Wright as an additional Driver, the contract was renewed on the 3rd of June having been driven 750km. The new contract was issued with the customer being zodiac rent a car ltd., Gerry being the driver and Michael once again being the additional driver, the kilometer stand was 3864km.

One month later on the 2nd of July the contract was again renewed, customer and driver Gerry, no additional driver, kilometerstand 5864km, having been driven 2000km. Strange that is.

Didn´t Team Mccann move into the Villa on the third?

now it gets interesting:

Gerry flew to London on the 12th of July, Michael Wright flew to Portugal on the 12th to pick up Kate and the twins for a baptism in Skipton, he said in his interview that she picked him up at the airport in a Renault Espace (Scenic?). The next day they flew to the UK. The Mccanns returned on the 15th.

The contract for the Scenic was once again renewed on the 2nd of August, once again with Gerry as customer and driver, no additional driver, kilometerstand 5865km, having been driven 1km. (Gerry had his virus bug on this day), The dogs had sniffed the appartment on the 1st.

On the 3rd of August the Mccanns drove to Huelva and back, the dogs did a second check of the appartment with new results.

The Scenic was taken away at some point later, probably loaded up and was examined by the dogs on the 6th August, the results we know.

Was the car given back to the Mccanns after this date because Michael Wright professes to have driven the car around both in August and also in September

Once again the contract was renewed on the 1st of September, Gerry as customer and driver, additional driver Michael Wright, kilometerstand 5866km, driven kilometers 1km.

The Mccanns left Portugal on the 9th of September,as did Michael , the car was returned on the 23rd of September Kilometerstand 14443.



So, my questions:

Why did Gerry not rent the car himself on June 3rd? credit cards?

Why did he use a firm in Bracknell for this?

Was Kate driving the car without insurance?

Were the renewals of the contract pro forma and the kilometerstand just inserted for the sake of the renewal?

Michael Wright was, according to his statement using the Renault without insurance ( either he or Kate in August)

Why was the car not at least returned to the hotel reception on the 9th of September?


Was there more than one car being rented?
my apologies if I´m boring



the links are here:

Michael Wright:

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2270-madeleine-mccann-the-role-of-michael-wright?highlight=michael+wright



car rentals:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RENTAL_CONTRACTS-1.htm



Zodiac Rent A Car:

[url=http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/zodiac-rent-a-car
http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/zodiac-rent-a-car[/quote[/url]]



It is puzzling what apparently the car was handed back to them. Very odd.



But the questions about Zodiac Rent a Car of Bracknell are easy to answer. Zodiac is the UK and Europe holding company for Avis and Budget.

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Kate not a driver?

Post by tigger on Wed 21 Sep 2011 - 19:58

It's strange that Kate wasn't a named driver on any occasion. Why not? Isn't she safe to drive? Although she drove to the airport with Michael Wright to pick Gerry up after his busy time in the UK, saving lives and losing his wallet. That was the night they helped the drunk. I've always been curious about that night and that anonymous drunk.

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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Invinoveritas on Wed 21 Sep 2011 - 20:06

OK ,

so Gerry entered a contract with AAC-Budget on 27th of May, he was the customer, i.e. he was paying, on June 3rd the contract was renewed, the new customer was Zodiac-Rent-A-Car in Bracknell, that meant that Zodiac was now paying, correct me if I´m wrong, one month later Gerry was once again the customer, i.e. paying.

My original questions were:

Why did Gerry not rent the car himself on June 3rd? credit cards?
Why did he use a firm in Bracknell for this?



I admit I´m confused, it just doesn´t rhyme for me

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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Xavier on Thu 22 Sep 2011 - 12:36

Invinoveritas wrote:OK ,

so Gerry entered a contract with AAC-Budget on 27th of May, he was the customer, i.e. he was paying, on June 3rd the contract was renewed, the new customer was Zodiac-Rent-A-Car in Bracknell, that meant that Zodiac was now paying, correct me if I´m wrong, one month later Gerry was once again the customer, i.e. paying.

My original questions were:

Why did Gerry not rent the car himself on June 3rd? credit cards?
Why did he use a firm in Bracknell for this?



I admit I´m confused, it just doesn´t rhyme for me



A possible explanation is that Budget offered them a car free for a month. In which case the notional customer would be the owner of the business.



As for why he used a firm in Bracknell for this, perhaps it is because that is where Budget's european head office is located, and where their european rental system is based. It does not mean that he would have actually had any contact with anyone in Bracknell - most likely he would have dealing with the local Portuguese office.

Xavier

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Re: The Renault Scenic

Post by Guest on Sat 26 Oct 2013 - 17:55

I have recently seen, but cannot find anymore, a complete list of mileage of the rented Renault Scenic.
A list from the day the car came into traffic up to and including the day it was given back to the rental company after the McCs had legged it to the U.K.

This list stated clearly

the name of the person renting it
the date on which it was rented
and the day it was delivered back
the total mileage on the first day of rental
the total mileage on the day of returning it
the total number of kilometers  driven during the rental period.

There was something wrong with these figures. In fact an impossibility.
I'd like to have a look at it again.

But, as I said, I cannot find it anymore.
Can anyone HELP me out???
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