Re: Trip to Huelva

by **tigger** 25.11.13 13:17

Onager wrote:
Stewie wrote:Looking at the official timeline for Huelva we have:

The timeline, according to The Sun, is as follows:
09:00 Leave Praia da Luz
12:15 Arrive Huelva (expected at 11:00am)
13:00 Distribute leaflets and posters at train station
13:30 Distribute leaflets and posters at cathedral
14:00 Distribute leaflets and posters at bus station
14:20 Leave to return to Praia da Luz

But the police have the phone ping records and a witness statement which tell a different timeline:

Phone records:
Ping Assumadas mast 0849
Ping Tavira mast 1345
Ping Luz 1438
Witness statement:
Saw Mccanns in car at traffic lights in Huelva 1120

This gives us a new timeline:

Leave luz 0749
Assumadas ping ( from Luz 84k 57 mins ) 0849
Arrive Huelva (from Assumadas 122k 1hr 20) 1010 (1110 local time - 1 hour diff between portugal and spain)
Sighting in Huelva 1120 (1020 portuguese time)
Leave Huelva latest 1245
Tavira ping (from Huelva 85k 1hr) 1345
Luz ping (from Tavira 115k 1hr 15) 1438 must have been speeding

So I would say given this they were in huelva early stayed maybe a few hours and were back in luz by mid afternoon - very different to how the media portrayed it.

Data is taken from the pj files narrative for Kate phone pings 3 august:

On 3rd the first record of the mobile phone of Kate on this day was made on the antenna "Assumadas 2" at 8:49:07 and the second was already on the antenna of the operator Optimus installed in the [parish] of Santa Maria, municipal area of Tavira at 13:45:45.

The subsequent records indicate the journey of return to Luz, where it activates the antenna, also of the operator Optimus, installed in the [parish] of Luz, of the Municipality of Lagos at 14:38:56.

On the route are activated the antennae installed in Tavira (Santiago), Santo Estevao, Estoi, Santa Barbara of Nexe, Loule (Sao Clemente), Ferreiras, Pera, Porches and Estombar, entering then into the coverage area of the antenna of Luz.

According to the news related by some organs of the written media on 4th, the McCann were on this day in Huelva as part of their campaign to locate Madeleine.

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Does anyone know if this subject continues elsewhere, or did it lose steam at this point?

Having read the thread, and then stared at the map... between the two pings (Assumadas and Tavira) the McCann's had five hours available to them to cover 200km or more (Stewie, I think your distances are a little high) predominantly on a good road, leaving roughly 3 hrs (if not more, judging by distance/time between the latter two pings) to spend time putting up posters, handing out leaflets... etc. More than enough time to make a one hour detour...

A detour, or something else very important...

If nothing else, it's the switching off of the phone for 5 hours that gets me.

I mean, here are a couple 'shouting from the rooftops', searching for their 'lost' child, having suffered for the previous 3 months, and they switch off their phone(s?) thereby making it impossible for anyone to contact them re their other two children should an emergency arise... it just doesn't make sense.

Do we know if Kate was/is in the habit of switching off her phone to save battery?

The topic did seem to have run out of steam, but not for me. I don't think they spent much time at all with posters and leaflets. Imo that would account for no more than half an hour. People were preparing for the Fiesta.
The photographs of the distribution of leaflets and posters are odd - one looks like a bus station with about five people around and not a soul interested in the McCanns.
The other one where they're sticking posters on a pillar looks like a petrol station which they may have used on the way.

They left Huelva around the time they were sighted imo. Midday at the latest. Nina: isn't a long part of their journey on a very good motorway?
Imo they did the bus station and a petrol station on the way, with a fiesta on the go I can't imagine getting to the train station or the cathedral would be easy, might have to be done on foot and there's no suitable photograph of Kate looking sad in front of the cathedral, a photo oppportunity too good to be missed, I'd think. No the bus station and the petrol station is all we have re visual material. They had several hours imo for their detour.

by Guest 25.11.13 20:31

tigger wrote:

They left Huelva around the time they were sighted imo. Midday at the latest. Nina: isn't a long part of their journey on a very good motorway?

Hi Tigger, I agree it's a shame this topic got bogged down with gloves etc. I think it's one of the most vital and intriguing subjects on the whole site.

For info, anybody who has travelled along the IP1/E1 will know that it is easy to maintain very high speeds, I wouldn't be surprised if you could reach the border from Luz (a distance of 140km) in just 1 hour without attracting any significant attention.

by Guest 25.11.13 20:43

I remember someone on the thread about Tony Rickman and his horrid and peculiar fascination with girls in quicksand mentioning that the National Park near Huelva is known for it's quicksand. I thought then that this may be significant. Don't know if a disposal here is feasible - is it a busy place? are there indeed lethal quicksands there? etc - but it may be worth some consideration. Chilling thought, though sad

by **tigger** 25.11.13 21:28

I'm not too fussed about gloves or not.
The self-styled film director Jon Corner is more interesting. The shots he's chosen to use say as much about him as his subjects. E.g. Kate apparently spacedout on happy pills going 'whoosh, clunk'. The low level shot of Gerry at the computer, thesoft focus here and there.
So why bother to film the loading of boxes of leaflets to take to Huelva? Morethan they could hope to distribute.
I think JC isin a couple of the shots, one of which lookslikeearly morning.
They must have come back with almost as many leaflets as they left.
Perhaps jon Corner was there with his big video camera to give the impression the press went along with them.
Perhaps they had another appointment, hence the detour.

@dee coy, I'm sure that wasn't the reason for the trip.i don't think they did it themselves. Imo of course.

by Guest 25.11.13 21:34

Ah, Jon Corner. Another character in the "charade". No offense meant, but I think if he would shake my hand, I would rub it dry on my pants [if you know the feeling? ...]. And a big enigma, indeed, that he did show a woosh-clunked Kate. I am at a loss there.

by Guest 25.11.13 22:19

tigger wrote: The shots he's chosen to use say as much about him as his subjects. E.g. Kate apparently spacedout on happy pills going 'whoosh, clunk'.

I have occasionally wondered to what extent drugs play a part in this whole episode.

by Guest 25.11.13 22:38

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
tigger wrote: The shots he's chosen to use say as much about him as his subjects. E.g. Kate apparently spacedout on happy pills going 'whoosh, clunk'.
I have occasionally wondered to what extent drugs play a part in this whole episode.

***
You're not the only one ...

by Daisy 25.11.13 22:40

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
tigger wrote: The shots he's chosen to use say as much about him as his subjects. E.g. Kate apparently spacedout on happy pills going 'whoosh, clunk'.
I have occasionally wondered to what extent drugs play a part in this whole episode.

I'm saying nowt.

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by Pershing36 26.11.13 9:16

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
tigger wrote: The shots he's chosen to use say as much about him as his subjects. E.g. Kate apparently spacedout on happy pills going 'whoosh, clunk'.
I have occasionally wondered to what extent drugs play a part in this whole episode.

Didn't that chap that sold up everything to fund going out there to search die of a Morphine overdose in the UK? If I recall he raised an enormous amount of money for such a short trip.

by notlongnow 26.11.13 9:22

Pershing36 wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:
tigger wrote: The shots he's chosen to use say as much about him as his subjects. E.g. Kate apparently spacedout on happy pills going 'whoosh, clunk'.
I have occasionally wondered to what extent drugs play a part in this whole episode.
Didn't that chap that sold up everything to fund going out there to search die of a Morphine overdose in the UK? If I recall he raised an enormous amount of money for such a short trip.

Do you mean this?

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by Pershing36 26.11.13 10:12

notlongnow wrote:
Pershing36 wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:
tigger wrote: The shots he's chosen to use say as much about him as his subjects. E.g. Kate apparently spacedout on happy pills going 'whoosh, clunk'.
I have occasionally wondered to what extent drugs play a part in this whole episode.
Didn't that chap that sold up everything to fund going out there to search die of a Morphine overdose in the UK? If I recall he raised an enormous amount of money for such a short trip.
Do you mean this?

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Yes, and when their is Morphine there are usually you know whats about.

by roy rovers 26.11.13 12:38

Pershing36 wrote:
notlongnow wrote:
Pershing36 wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:
tigger wrote: The shots he's chosen to use say as much about him as his subjects. E.g. Kate apparently spacedout on happy pills going 'whoosh, clunk'.
I have occasionally wondered to what extent drugs play a part in this whole episode.
Didn't that chap that sold up everything to fund going out there to search die of a Morphine overdose in the UK? If I recall he raised an enormous amount of money for such a short trip.
Do you mean this?

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Yes, and when their is Morphine there are usually you know whats about.

What's a 'you know what'?

by Pershing36 26.11.13 12:46

Doctors

by loopzdaloop 22.01.14 0:18

PeterMac wrote:Gerry's blog

Day 92 - 03/08/2007 - Friday
HUELVA
It is exactly 3 months since Madeleine was abducted. Kate and I had an early start as we drove to Huelva, 50Km over the border from Portugal in Southern Spain.

Early start is emphasised, so not 9:00 after dropping the twins at the creche, which would have been "normal start".
And we have Huelva being 50 km beyond the border, rather than 50 km from PdL. Which makes more geographical sense, but less 'searching sense'. There were several large towns in Portugal along the way which were totally ignored.
Why ?

As you point out, 0700 start could get you to Huelva by 0930, giving you 3 hours free before any planned events at 1230.
ALSO, at 0930 the town would be quiet, so the Feria mayhem would not have started, and traffic problems would not be an issue, as they would by midday. Ditto the lack of Feria clothing on the women.

Can't see a clock in any of the photos,
BUT
Look at the shadow on the last photo on my post. The street cafe scene.
The whole pavement is in shade, from the building, not from the umbrella. Those men are having an early morning cup of coffee. Not lunch.

2 things stand out for me. 1 they actually dropped e children at the crèche and 2 the bands already!

by Guest 22.01.14 10:36

Please note the time difference, Huelva is one hour ahead.
kindest regards
parapono

by jeanmonroe 22.01.14 17:24

Unidentified People of Interest to the Inquiry

These two pictures show a man carrying a child away from the family's apartment. This sighting was seen by a witness at 21:15 on the evening of Thursday, May 3rd, 2007.

Based or more recent information, the Metropolitan Police now believe this man may represent a guest at the Ocean Club who was carrying his daughter back to their apartment. However as it is not possible to be certain that these two men are actually the same person, if you have seen this man in the pictures or suspect who it may be, please contact the Metropolitan Police's OPERATION GRANGE on 0207 321 9251 (0044 207 321 9251 from outside the UK)

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2 minutes ago.
----------------------------------------------------

"however"?

Talk about taking the p**s out of AR/SY!

Why is the Met/SY letting the McCanns 'run the show'

They are completely dissing Redwood's 'revelation' moment!

Oh dear. looks like DCI Redwood's for the chop!

£7.5 million and 2years 6 months of nothingness.

Copper's "nose"? Redwood must have a cold! more like Redwoods head on the block!

by mysterion 22.01.14 17:32

Not seen that rear view sketch before. You could match that to half the population of the World. Why bother?

by Guest 22.01.14 17:34

Isn't this topic being discussed elsewhere on the Forum?

by kimHager 03.03.14 10:14

On the sun photos and the distributed posters Maddie's eyes are alot darker...now who are they trying to fool

by Woofer 07.05.14 23:40

Raising this topic again to add details of the Roman Catholic Cemetary at Huelva which is owned by the British Government. Its just north east of Huelva on the H-1417.

I doubt there would be many people around in this cemetary if there was a Fiesta happening on 3 August.

Michael Glyndwr is buried there - the dead body in Operation Mincemeat.

The British Cemetery, called "Nuestra Señora de la Soledad", belongs to the British Government. OK if one has contacts in the British Government.

[url=http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2086519/Huelva Roman Catholic Cemetery][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by whatliesbehindthesofa 08.05.14 0:57

One thing I'm certain about regarding the Huelva trip is that they didn't take a corpse in the boot to be buried with them. I'm convinced that Maddy is buried close to PdL, just far enough away to dig a grave without being seen. My opinion is that the burial occurred around the middle of July.

Questions I would have asked myself:

- What if the Scenic breaks down?
- What if we have an accident?
- What if we are stopped by the police?

I would not want to be in possession of a dead body for any longer than absolutely necessary. I would scout for a suitable burial ground, close to where the body is kept in storage. I would choose a location at a higher altitude, so that I could have a good view of the surrounding countryside. If possible, I would prepare the grave in advance, and hide it. Then one night, I would quickly move the body from its storage location to the grave, fill it in, and get the hell out of there.

by Okeydokey 08.05.14 1:57

Hypothetically I think you're right, including ensuring you're not being followed by getting to an elevated position. I've always thought that. Probably more than one vehicle to be sure - first vehicle scouts and driver then signals back to second vehicle that all is clear.

Wasn't Huelva around the time of the dogs' visit though? There might hypothetically have been some reason to dispose of something.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 08.05.14 2:01

Okeydokey wrote:
Hypothetically I think you're right, including ensuring you're not being followed by getting to an elevated position. I've always thought that. Probably more than one vehicle to be sure - first vehicle scouts and driver then signals back to second vehicle that all is clear.

Wasn't Huelva around the time of the dogs' visit though? There might hypothetically have been some reason to dispose of something.

Yes, they probably did get rid of something at that time, agreed.

by rainbow-fairy 08.05.14 9:01

Woofer wrote:Raising this topic again to add details of the Roman Catholic Cemetary at Huelva which is owned by the British Government. Its just north east of Huelva on the H-1417.

I doubt there would be many people around in this cemetary if there was a Fiesta happening on 3 August.

Michael Glyndwr is buried there - the dead body in Operation Mincemeat.

The British Cemetery, called "Nuestra Señora de la Soledad", belongs to the British Government. OK if one has contacts in the British Government.

[url=http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2086519/Huelva Roman Catholic Cemetery][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thank you Woofer! roses

I first saw this in a Maddie Fb group about a month ago but haven't been able to find it recently.
It made me sit up and take notice but didn't seem to get much discussion which surprised me given the connections to the UK Govt.
Worth looking into further, imo.
I have to say I know nothing of Michael Glyndwr or Operation Mincemeat - next Google task! laughat

by Woofer 08.05.14 9:58

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:One thing I'm certain about regarding the Huelva trip is that they didn't take a corpse in the boot to be buried with them. I'm convinced that Maddy is buried close to PdL, just far enough away to dig a grave without being seen. My opinion is that the burial occurred around the middle of July.

Questions I would have asked myself:

- What if the Scenic breaks down?
- What if we have an accident?
- What if we are stopped by the police?

I would not want to be in possession of a dead body for any longer than absolutely necessary. I would scout for a suitable burial ground, close to where the body is kept in storage. I would choose a location at a higher altitude, so that I could have a good view of the surrounding countryside. If possible, I would prepare the grave in advance, and hide it. Then one night, I would quickly move the body from its storage location to the grave, fill it in, and get the hell out of there.

I have to concede you`ve got a point about travelling that far with a body runs huge risks.

But its still odd why they went there and why they didn`t stop at other major towns on the way.

I suppose being a Catholic country there are many catholic cemetaries - wonder if there are any in those other towns (and belonging to the British Government).

Its still a possibility if someone knew a bribable local undertaker who prepared and transported a coffin in plain sight. I used to work in an undertakers and, believe me, there are some who can be bribed.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 08.05.14 10:17

Woofer wrote:
I have to concede you`ve got a point about travelling that far with a body runs huge risks.

But its still odd why they went there and why they didn`t stop at other major towns on the way.

I suppose being a Catholic country there are many catholic cemetaries - wonder if there are any in those other towns (and belonging to the British Government).

Its still a possibility if someone knew a bribable local undertaker who prepared and transported a coffin in plain sight. I used to work in an undertakers and, believe me, there are some who can be bribed.

What effect has the Huelva trip had on many members of this forum? They suspect that this is when the body was buried.

If it was diversionary tactic, then it was a good one. People are considering burial locations in another country, when perhaps the real one is only a few miles from the place that she died. I'm not saying that it was definitely a deliberate diversionary tactic, but if it was then it was highly effective.

On bribing a local undertaker - not a chance, in my opinion. When the stakes are that high, you don't include unknown strangers in your plan.

by Woofer 08.05.14 10:43

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Woofer wrote:
I have to concede you`ve got a point about travelling that far with a body runs huge risks.

But its still odd why they went there and why they didn`t stop at other major towns on the way.

I suppose being a Catholic country there are many catholic cemetaries - wonder if there are any in those other towns (and belonging to the British Government).

Its still a possibility if someone knew a bribable local undertaker who prepared and transported a coffin in plain sight. I used to work in an undertakers and, believe me, there are some who can be bribed.

What effect has the Huelva trip had on many members of this forum? They suspect that this is when the body was buried.

If it was diversionary tactic, then it was a good one. People are considering burial locations in another country, when perhaps the real one is only a few miles from the place that she died. I'm not saying that it was definitely a deliberate diversionary tactic, but if it was then it was highly effective.

On bribing a local undertaker - not a chance, in my opinion. When the stakes are that high, you don't include unknown strangers in your plan.

I could agree if it was the McCann`s plan working on their own, but IMO they had establishment help and such people would be able to arrange anything.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 08.05.14 10:53

Woofer wrote:
I could agree if it was the McCann`s plan working on their own, but IMO they had establishment help and such people would be able to arrange anything.

Ah ok, that's where we differ, I do not believe that they had establishment help, not at the level of body disposal at least. I do think it very likely that some British politicians led by Gordon Brown did their best to impede and close down the Portuguese enquiry, but because of misguided loyalty similar to the stupidity demonstrated by Jacqueline Gold on Twitter.

If they could arrange anything, why was Gerry left to cart a corpse around in his hire-car?

by HelenMeg 08.05.14 10:59

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Woofer wrote:
I could agree if it was the McCann`s plan working on their own, but IMO they had establishment help and such people would be able to arrange anything.

Ah ok, that's where we differ, I do not believe that they had establishment help, not at the level of body disposal at least. I do think it very likely that some British politicians led by Gordon Brown did their best to impede and close down the Portuguese enquiry, but because of misguided loyalty similar to the stupidity demonstrated by Jacqueline Gold on Twitter.

If they could arrange anything, why was Gerry left to cart a corpse around in his hire-car?

I tend to agree with Woofer - they had high level support in covering this up. Kate would have likely been demanding that there was a proper resting place for Madeleine and as a loose canon, they would have probably got assistance to ensure that the body reached a decent resting place.
The Mc Canns confidence in the early days could not have been experienced if they were worried about a body being found? But it does remain a possibility that they buried and disposed of her body themselves.

Operation Mincemeat is a great true story - recommend reading this story. Didnt know he was buried at Huelva

by MissDaisy 08.05.14 11:00

Woofer wrote:Raising this topic again to add details of the Roman Catholic Cemetary at Huelva which is owned by the British Government. Its just north east of Huelva on the H-1417.

I doubt there would be many people around in this cemetary if there was a Fiesta happening on 3 August.

Michael Glyndwr is buried there - the dead body in Operation Mincemeat.

The British Cemetery, called "Nuestra Señora de la Soledad", belongs to the British Government. OK if one has contacts in the British Government.

[url=http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2086519/Huelva Roman Catholic Cemetery][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I mentioned Operation Mincemeat on here before as it was after reading the book about it that got me interested in this case. I can't put my finger on what it is though but it definitely made me think and do a bit of digging.